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DOOM (4), and why I'm super mad about it

UPSLynxUPSLynx Top EA shill, The Dean of Computer GraphicsRedwood City, CA Icrontian
edited Apr 2016 in Gaming

DOOM(4) beta weekend is live right now, I encourage you to give it a try (but also play Overwatch this weekend, because it's better).

So I've been cautiously optimistic for this title since it was announced. I love DOOM, and I've been ready for a new, modern DOOM game for some time now. Early trailers looked promising - dark, horrific, bloody, but fast paced and tons of action. All the classic weapons and enemies were there, things looked like you hoped they would. I was ready for a trip to hell to blow up some demons.

Then gameplay trailers started to hit, and early impressions, and I started to waver in my excitement. And now open beta is here, and I'm legit super mad about this game. This isn't DOOM. This isn't what I want from a DOOM game. It's Halo + Call of Duty + lots of gore. I'm so cranky about this.

Perhaps the biggest miss is the fact that you don't pick up weapons. At all. Instead, you have loadouts, and you unlock weapons by, you guessed it, earning XP and leveling up. You get 2 weapons and one "perk" per loadout, and that's what you play with. You don't pick up any weapons on the map while playing. The only exception is picking up the minion thing that turns you into an OP demon, but I don't even want to get started on that. This ruins one of my favorite dynamics from the original DOOM games - the sprint to find stronger weapons to gain the slight advantage on your enemies in the chaos of battle. Do you want to respawn with a rocket launcher and super shotgun every single time you die? Perfect, because you can do that the first time you play, without having to unlock anything!

At least armor and health pickups are true to the nature of DOOM. You don't regenerate health, thank the Lord.

To make the weapon matters worse, players are bullet sponges. It takes a long time to kill anyone, regardless of the weapon used. Rocket launchers take 2-4 rockets just to kill someone (a direct hit only takes 50% of their health). It kinda hurts the pacing of the game, and really gives it a Halo combat vibe.

In addition to all that, the game throws in modern shooter attack mechanics that have no place in DOOM. You have a quick-fire grenade throw buttom (like Halo), and you also have a melee attack with the butt of your weapon (like Halo). Any time you engage in a close battle, it immediately starts out with 'nade throws, then a few bullets, then just turns into melee swinging until someone dies. Just like every other modern competitive shooter.

Seriously, it's a DOOM game, and I just keep dying to sniper rifle shots, frag grenade throws, and melee hits. This isn't DOOM.

DOOM(4) isn't a bad game. In fact, it's a pretty fun arena shooter. But this ain't the DOOM we wanted. Similar to the issues DOOM 3 had - as a horror game, DOOM 3 is actually great. But as a DOOM game, it completely missed. DOOM(4) is a good shooter. Great, even. But it's not a game worthy of the legacy left by DOOM 1 and 2.

It sure looks pretty, though.

CBLincGargoyle
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Comments

  • ThraxThrax Professional Shill, Watch Slut, Mumble Hivemind Drone Austin, TX Icrontian

    I really wanted a "run around and pick up weapons" experience. :( Bummer.

    CBBuddyJ
  • BobbyDigiBobbyDigi ? R U #Hats ! SoCal Icrontian

    -Digi

    UPSLynxDontCallMeKelso
  • KarmaKarma Likes yoga Icrontian

    While having loadouts is pretty lame. It does still feel like a more old school shooter in its action. Took me back to my even younger years running around in UT with a rocket launcher. I have enjoyed what I've played so far. The Demon's are OP as fuck though.

  • ThraxThrax Professional Shill, Watch Slut, Mumble Hivemind Drone Austin, TX Icrontian

    also:

    UPSLynxMt_Goat
  • WinfreyWinfrey waddafuh Missouri Icrontian

    The action does look more like a Halo/Quake/UT2k4 game. Which is probably a lot of fun. Curious about the single player.

  • UPSLynxUPSLynx Top EA shill, The Dean of Computer Graphics Redwood City, CA Icrontian

    @Karma said:
    While having loadouts is pretty lame. It does still feel like a more old school shooter in its action. Took me back to my even younger years running around in UT with a rocket launcher. I have enjoyed what I've played so far. The Demon's are OP as fuck though.

    I do agree with you here, but UT is a different game than DOOM. The new UT (playable in alpha form) is super good, and does that style game better than the new DOOM does.

  • KarmaKarma Likes yoga Icrontian

    @UPSLynx said:

    @Karma said:
    While having loadouts is pretty lame. It does still feel like a more old school shooter in its action. Took me back to my even younger years running around in UT with a rocket launcher. I have enjoyed what I've played so far. The Demon's are OP as fuck though.

    I do agree with you here, but UT is a different game than DOOM. The new UT (playable in alpha form) is super good, and does that style game better than the new DOOM does.

    the Playable UT alpha right now is just way to shiny.

  • Cliff_ForsterCliff_Forster Baltimore, MD Icrontian
    edited Apr 2016

    The multiplayer beta is thin. First, I'm not impressed that a game that is only a month away has locked me out of the advanced video options. I really want to see what this thing can look like. That said, my hardware is performing so / so, I made a huge mistake cross-firing R9 285's and should have just purchased a better single card at the time. I honestly don't think it looks as nice as the promo's had me believe. The Unreal beta has far sharper multiplayer gameplay and level design.

    I'm not feeling $60 here, I'm thinking the new Doom is a game I'll play a year from now when it goes for $14.99 on a Steam sale. Oh well....

    DontCallMeKelsoMAGICGargoyle
  • UPSLynxUPSLynx Top EA shill, The Dean of Computer Graphics Redwood City, CA Icrontian

    @Cliff_Forster said:
    That said, my hardware is performing so / so, I made a huge mistake cross-firing R9 285's and should have just purchased a better single card at the time.

    Agreed on this one. Dual GPU flat out breaks in this game. Had to force it off just to be able to play it, and even then performance wasn't too hot. I'm always hopeful for optimization, but a month from launch? That's not gonna happen at this point.

    Cliff_Forster
  • KarmaKarma Likes yoga Icrontian

    Oh I don't think it is worth 60 bucks but I had fun for an hour or so.

  • Cliff_ForsterCliff_Forster Baltimore, MD Icrontian
    edited Apr 2016

    If I threw it in V Sync with Crossfire enabled it capped me at a whopping 30 FPS... It is a console game on PC. Just the way things are right now, PC gaming is in a strange state because the consoles are actually pretty capable and fairly cheap right now. That is where the developer focus is. I can't remember a time as a PC gamer where I have been less enthusiastic. I look at my rig everyday, look over at the PS4 and figure, well, the PS4 is plug and play, it just does what it is designed to do. My PC is a constant battle of driver issues, non crossfire optimization, don't get me started on the horrible Raptr app that AMD tries to slip by with every update. Windows 10 is nearly a year in, has DX12 or Vulkan delivered much? Not really.... It's just a waiting game while on the console side is where the developers are making the best exclusive content. To EA's credit, though I was hard on Battlefront for the business model... still having played it both on PC and on PS4 I have to say it's one of the few games that makes me still see value in the PC as the experience is much better there. The optimizations can be made in development, you just need the developer to see the value in it. I'm afraid the new version of Doom has fallen into the Console first development trap.

  • CantiCanti =/= smalltime http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9K18CGEeiI&feature=related Icrontian

    Looks good to me!

    UPSLynxGargoyle
  • RahnalH102RahnalH102 the Green Devout, Veteran Monster Hunter, Creature Enthusiast New Mexico Icrontian

    @UPSLynx said:
    Agreed on this one. Dual GPU flat out breaks in this game.

    @Cliff_Forster said:
    Non crossfire optimization ...

    The impression I'm under is that Crossfire/SLI optimization rarely is supported on launch for quite a lot of titles these days. My brother has been frustrated with that quite a bit. A lot of effort on his part to get it to work, and very little payoff so far (cause if it's his personal computer, despite knowing what he's doing, something invariably goes wrong). His and accounts from others lead me to my earlier stated impression.
    It makes me wonder what the issue is for the developers. I've got plenty of plausible theories but no data to back any of it up.

    @UPSLynx said:
    To make the weapon matters worse, players are bullet sponges. It takes a long time to kill anyone, regardless of the weapon used. Rocket launchers take 2-4 rockets just to kill someone (a direct hit only takes 50% of their health). It kinda hurts the pacing of the game, and really gives it a Halo combat vibe.

    I get what you mean by Halo combat vibe. It's just that that sounds even slower then what Halo can be. Like at least in Halo a direct hit with the rocket launcher is a kill.

    There is more I want to type here but I feel unknowledgable enough that I can't say anything properly. Namely, I'm in support of originality and IPs doing what they are known to do well. Icons being icons so to speak. However since I haven't played any DOOM, I can't speak with support or against this DOOM.

  • Cliff_ForsterCliff_Forster Baltimore, MD Icrontian

    @UPSLynx is right, not having to scramble for the best weapons kills the spirit of the game. I played a little more, I think I have seen enough. Not impressed at all.

  • ThraxThrax Professional Shill, Watch Slut, Mumble Hivemind Drone Austin, TX Icrontian

    The front page of Reddit today:

    Gargoyle
  • GargoyleGargoyle Purveyor of Lincoln Nightmares Illinois Icrontian

    What are the chances they'll go back to the drawing board and fix some of this?

  • ThraxThrax Professional Shill, Watch Slut, Mumble Hivemind Drone Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited Apr 2016

    It's one month away from launch. Virtually nonexistent in the short term. Maybe in a post-launch patch they'll add a "classic deathmatch" mode.

  • CBCB Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Der Millionendorf- Icrontian

    I didn't know there was a new DOOM game coming out until I saw the complaints. Glad because now I won't be disappointed.

  • Cliff_ForsterCliff_Forster Baltimore, MD Icrontian

    @Gargoyle said:
    What are the chances they'll go back to the drawing board and fix some of this?

    Here is your fix. Download the Unreal Tournament Pre Alpha and play that with me instead.

    UPSLynx
  • UPSLynxUPSLynx Top EA shill, The Dean of Computer Graphics Redwood City, CA Icrontian

    DOOM's "Beta" is just a glorified pre-launch demo (though I do hear that their closed beta did give them time to implement tester feedback, but even that couldn't save this trainwreck). So few companies do beta tests right these days.

    It's sad how excited I get about Overwatch's 6-month long beta before launch, and that they're using it to radically tweak and change the gameplay leading to launch. That used to be the norm for these kind of things.

  • RahnalH102RahnalH102 the Green Devout, Veteran Monster Hunter, Creature Enthusiast New Mexico Icrontian

    Just learned that the multiplayer of DOOM 4 was handled not by Id but by Certain Affinity, who has worked on Halo multiplayer and COD multiplayer DLC recently. Explains a lot right there.

  • UPSLynxUPSLynx Top EA shill, The Dean of Computer Graphics Redwood City, CA Icrontian

    Yeah I read that as well, it it was a huge aha moment for me.

    Gives me a little hope for the singleplayer, but I"m not holding my breath. Pretty sure this will be a steam sale game for me in a year.

  • UPSLynxUPSLynx Top EA shill, The Dean of Computer Graphics Redwood City, CA Icrontian

    I do agree with you, we should wait and see. But I think this game needs to be more than "well, I hope the singleplayer is still good". You've only got one chance at a first impression, and they screwed that up badly. Regardless of what else is in this game, all we know at this point is that part of what we get when we plop down 60 bucks for this title is a really, really crummy multiplayer component that has nothing to do with what made the original DOOM so great.

    This isn't about just the multiplayer - this is about making a statement. When you take one of the most important gaming franchises in history, decide to bring it back to light after 20 years after it's initial release, beating your chest the entire time about how this is a "back to roots arena shooter", then shovel out Halo-esque garbage like this, then you've betrayed my trust. So what if Bethesda offloaded the multiplayer development to someone else? This is still a core component of the game, and it's not DOOM, and it's not good. Hell, what even is iD anymore? A shell of their former selves. Why should I be convinced that the singleplayer will be better?

    For me, it's not good enough to say "well, the MP was awful, but at least it was farmed off to another dev team!". 60 dollars is a lot of money, and you better believe I expect the full package to be awesome if I'm spending that kind of money. And if you slap a name like DOOM on it, you're not getting a free pass for the legacy alone. My expectations for DOOM are too high.

    This game will review well (because of course), and a lot of people will buy it at launch, play it, beat it, and move on to the next flavor of the month after that. And that's cool. It's just that the expectation has been set poorly, and has been so bad that it's enough to make a lot of classic shooter fans feel OK with passing on this title until the impending price cut. There are too many games out there fighting for our money. Better make yours great before we're willing to dish it out.

    CBprimesuspectThrax
  • BHHammyBHHammy Somewhere in Hell Icrontian
    edited Apr 2016

    Well the good news is that Bethesda kind of got the hint Post-Beta, and they're starting to open up about the other stuff now. They did a livestream all about SnapMap this past monday (and I MISSED IT, dammit). And apparently the first thing they showed off was some recreated classic multiplayer, with weapons pickups, no loadouts, etc. It IS confirmed that it's a 4-player limit for multiplayer Snapmap stuff (AT THIS POINT), but I'm ok with that for now. They talked a lot more about map creation and just how strong of a tool it's gonna be.

    All I've got are bits and pieces at the moment, and I'm unsure if a full recording of the stream will come up (because thanks youtube content ID) and right now you can catch the full recording over on Twitch while Twitch still has it captured if you're interested, but I'll throw down what I have, and post a full youtube recording if I find it. Right now, Bethesda must have flipped the switch on letting some folks post their experiences with it, since information's starting to trickle out.

    I'll make an addendum post on my impressions on the Livestream recording when I'm not just about to head off to work.

    FYI, there's going to be a Single-Player livestream on the 27th.

    And for funsies.


    Other Videos

    Also, apparently Yogscast got a bit of greenlight to post some stuff, which I'll put here, but I'm gonna spoiler it because of loud incessant talkytalk lets play style.

  • CBCB Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Der Millionendorf- Icrontian

    Reminds me of the old WAD editor. Man... Imagine what the modding scene would have been like if the original DOOM had launched with an in-game fan-map browser.

    Also, it looks like it wont be long before classic doom deathmatch play will be possible, even using the original map layouts.

    I know, I know... "Why not just go play DOOM Deathmatch, it still exists?!"

    Because it sucks to try to play old games, there I said it. It was great when it came out, but the graphics, the engine, the control scheme, none of it aged well. I want to play DOOM Deathmatch (and to a lesser extent DOOM Single Player) in a modern engine. As much as I loved DOOM in the 90s, and as much time as I spent playing and modding it back in the day (I spent half a year creating a DOOM TC mod once) I have zero desire to play it for an extended period of time now.

    The information that's coming out about the plans for the modding tools, is making me hopeful for a real, new, DOOM experience. Still not getting hopes up, though because who knows.

    GargoyleUPSLynxdrasnor
  • BHHammyBHHammy Somewhere in Hell Icrontian
    edited Apr 2016

    Single Player Stream has come and gone, but the recording is still here.

    Please watch this. Please. Do yourself a favor, find some time, and watch. The Single-Player is looking boss as hell, and I can't be more excited.

    HAMMY'S PERSONAL VIDEO NOTES (Spoilered because of reasons of LONG, and you should really watch the video yourself, but here they are if you can't be arsed, or wanna follow along my stream of conciousness)

    -The Gameplay in the presentation is on Hurt Me Plenty difficulty (which is Difficulty 3). This is pretty much so the presenter doesn't choke too much- In oldschool DOOM, most anyone would tell you Ultra-Violence (4) is the "default" difficulty for anyone. From what we're hearing, higher difficulty levels actually change up the enemy AI and give them more attacks, as well as upping the number.

    -The "Glory Kill" system IS TOGGLEABLE. Yes, you CAN turn it off if you want.

    -LOOK AT THAT DAMN AUTOMAP. I could not have been happier to see that level layout. Complex, explorable maps.

    -Secret areas are still a part of the game.

    -I LOVE the guy's answer to the question about the story of DOOM- that it's not meant to be front and center, and that the focus of the game is the action happening right in front of you. BUT the details are set aside for you IF YOU WANT THEM.

    -I'll probably keep glory kills on for my first runthrough of the game just for how contextual they are. Yeah, I know, self-imposed slowdown, but I'd by lying if I didn't say I'm dying to play aorund with them. And then I can just turn 'em off if I get tired of them.

    -I love that the exploration in this game (because again, dat level design) really does take advantage of the ability to be vertical now. It's just lovely. I know I mentioned my previous argument about Classic DOOM before, but I'll admit- you can't really pull off stuff like this in that so smoothly.

    -You can actually toggle off most of any of the extra UI elements if you don't like them (there's even a crosshair selector- you might can even toggle THAT off if you -really- wanted). I feel like it's an option that'll make some folks pretty happy.

    -FOV Sliders are even available for the Console version of the game. Honesty time again- I've never really mucked too much with FOV sliders in a game before, but options are a GOOD thing, and I know it's something that's significant to a lot of people.

    -I won't lie- the chainsaw as a strategic resupply mechanic in the game is a really neat idea. You have "fuel cells" for your chainsaw, and insta-killing an enemy with it takes a certain number depending on what type (small, medium, or large, etc) of enemy you use it on. Killing an enemy in this manner resupplies your ammo reserves quite liberally, but the tradeoff is that you have to think about when you're going to pull it out or take a chance on some ammo drops right around the corner. I'll be 100% honest- in classic DOOM, the chainsaw is an -extremely- situational and tricky weapon to fall back on, as nice as it is. Ensuring something as iconic and fun like this sees more use and maintains it's relevance on a practical level through the game is a REALLY nice touch, IMO. (I understand folks will have differing opinions on the matter, it's just how I see it.)

    -Pistol has single fire AND charge shot, on unlimited ammo? IMMA MEGAMAN DIS BITCH AND NOBODY EXCEPT GOOD SENSE CAN STOP ME (Seriously though, Pistol running sounds like it could be fun)

    -I know folks are gonna cry foul on grenades being used in a game like DOOM, but I really don't feel they're inherently bad in and of themselves. They're just an option among many.

    -They've talked in interviews before about these sections of levels they've nicknamed internally "skate parks", in which they just dump enemies at you almost gotcha-style in these large arena-like areas where you're meant to make use of your speed and your arsenal to make it through. "If you stop moving, you're dead" sounds pretty accurate.

    -UPGRADE SYSTEMS. Both for weapons and for your player. the latter of which even has a dexterity section for making you perform actions faster. I always love progression systems in single-player games, and it looks like this isn't gonna disappoint.

    -Ultra-Nightmare Difficulty: If you die in the game, you have to start from the very beginning of the game, no reloads. They actually put a permadeath speedrun mode into this game. That's gonna be nuts to see on Twitch, no joke.

    -They just admitted that it's so difficult that nobody internally at Bethesda has been able to complete UN difficulty.

    -Demon Rune Upgrades. this'll be good.

    -Ok, the fact that you can have the game run through glory kills even faster, and then get speed boosts OFF of them is really nice. And again, it's optional stuff.

    -THIS arena with the larger enemies is MUCH more intense. Hot damn. Plus DAT HASTE ARTIFACT.

    -The chaingun is a beefy-ass weapon in this game. And the alternate attachment for it actually splits it into some sort of dual-chaingun-like thing which looks fucking RAD. Seriously, I can't get over how nice and chunky and beefy the weapons in this game look.

    -Secret Challenge Trials, with rune rewards. Kinda reminds me more of the challenge doors from Devil May Cry a bit, but I can dig it.

    -See now, the stuff they're talking about with balancing the game design for both new fans and old- this further reaffirms my point about why this thread exists in the first place- they really did shoot themselves in the foot with putting the multiplayer out first and foremost, and I really feel like they're really trying to fix that now, with showing off what THEY have actually developed. And again, I really feel like THIS is the game folks are looking for- what iD themselves actually created, not the farmed-out multiplayer.

    -Wooooooow that San Fran diss, what the fuuuuck

    -Hell looks pretty nice so far. Talk of a lot of fractured, varied environments, sounds like it'll be interesting.

    -THERE'S THE ALT CHAINGUN AND IT ROCKS

    -They really do highlight what I like most about the weapon upgrade system, and that's variety. One of my favorite mods for original DOOM is Super Skulltag, which basically has a regular version of the classic DOOM guns for each slot, and then an alternate version of said gun for that slot which ends up occupying slightly different utility, but still feels functionally similar. I feel like that's what they're accomplishing, here.

    -MONSTER INFIGHTING CONFIRMED

    -Mancubus chainsaw kills are fucking -brutal-. Love it. Those bastards deserve nothing less for all the trouble they've given me over the years. Baron Chainsaw Kills are also crazy-good.

    -BFG is a dedicated oh-shit-button now. It's not even on your weapon wheel, it actually has it's own special place with it's own unique ammo count, sort of like how they handled the chainsaw (you can see it in the green cell counts underneath his health bar). I think that's another neat move, personally, because the BFG, to me, is a special, sacred thing, and deserves to be treated as such. Plus hey- frees up your plasma ammo for the Plasma Rifle, while at the same time, dropping plasma ammo about doesn't upset the balance and give the player additional BFG shots, allowing the gun to be balanced easier.

    -The collectibles are nice. Love that Doomguy doll model.

    -SKULL KEY HYPE- aww c;mon show me more of the game c'mooooon

    tl;dr - I'm gonna have a -BLAST- with this game and nobody's gonna stop me. Totally hype.

    EDIT: I JUST FOUND THIS SHIT. This is a big spoiler for a series of easter eggs that are gonna be in the game, but it is NICE. Gonna spoiler the vid out of courtesy, but I think it's worth a peek.

    "Hey, what's the first thing folks are gonna make in Snapmap?"
    "Probably remake the classic DOOM levels, I guess."
    "Well....what if we actually just put the classic DOOM levels in the new DOOM singleplayer as secrets? And when they're found, you unlock the full versions of said maps in the level select?"
    "....hmmmmmmm."

  • UPSLynxUPSLynx Top EA shill, The Dean of Computer Graphics Redwood City, CA Icrontian
    edited Nov 2016

    OK. Mea Culpa. DOOM is good, and you should play it.

    I'm not totally wrong, tho.

    So I've been playing DOOM recently, and honestly, the singleplayer is amazing. It's really what you want out of a modern doom game. The SECOND the game starts, it makes you realize that YOU are the monster, and the demons are afraid of you. From that moment on, you're just running nonstop, killing everything in a brutal, lightning quick fashion.

    The controls are tight, the graphics are beautiful, and the soundtrack is perfect. The maps have tons of platforming and exploration, with loads of secrets to find. This is the DOOM we wanted.

    Showcasing Multiplayer as the first hands-on experience for this game was a massive mistake. The multiplayer sucks. it's not DOOM, and I'll never play it. The singleplayer of this game is worth the purchase alone (especially now while it's on sale).

    My one gripe - and this is one I figured out early on - I really don't like the glory kill system. The mechanics kind of rely on it though, so you can't really avoid it and not be punished. Glory kills give you health and ammo, and if you're playing in higher difficulties, you really need that boost to keep going. The brutality of it all is great and fun, but it kind of hurts the pacing, and it feels out of place.

    RyanFodder
  • Cliff_ForsterCliff_Forster Baltimore, MD Icrontian
    edited Nov 2016

    I agree, I'm doing the same sort of double take now that I have played the single player.

    If nothing else, DOOM shows you what a well designed game in a good low level API can be. Playing DOOM in Vulkan is the only argument you need for gaming on PC again. As more developers adopt this design approach things are only going to get better. Running games better on less expensive PC hardware leading to insane graphics improvements on PC. Two years ago, I pretty much said, well, we are back to console, everyone develops there first and ports anyway, with DOOM, I feel like PC visual superiority is back in a big way.

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