Core i7 cooling. Dark Knight just not cutting it?

TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
edited October 2009 in Hardware
I cannot for the life of me, get my i7 920's temps down.
I recently just installed the xigmatek Dark Knight Heatsink... and it was honestly cooling it worse than my stock heatsink was. I then took it apart again, and re-applied thermal paste. (thinking that I used to much the first time)

Well that only got me about a 3 degree drop or so.
I don't think its the airflow of my case. Because even if I have the door off and have a fan blowing right in the case... It still does not help the temperature.

At idle....... I get 48-53 degrees and its constantly fluctuating. It goes from 48, to 52, to 50, back to 48 and so on.

With about 55% load, this baby hits 70-80 degrees, and fluctuates even more. It will go from 70, to 80, to 77,back to 70..... and im talking about just core 0. It is not changing like that, because it is showing the other cores.... this is just from core 0.

This is also only at 3ghz (1.24v). I should be able to push my i7 way beyond 3ghz with air cooling.

Anybody got any ideas? Anything you think I could try?
Thanks a lot
«13

Comments

  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Seems like roughly 70 degrees at full load is appropriate for this cooler around 4GHz: http://www.pureoverclock.com/review.php?id=719&page=4

    Note that safe temps for a Core i7 is about 75-80C per core.

    Is the fan on right? How much paste are you using? What's your case temp?
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Thrax wrote:
    Seems like roughly 70 degrees at full load is appropriate for this cooler around 4GHz: http://www.pureoverclock.com/review.php?id=719&page=4

    Note that safe temps for a Core i7 is about 75-80C per core.

    Is the fan on right? How much paste are you using? What's your case temp?

    Thats what scares me actually. I was running dual smp clients on my stock heatsink, and the temps would hit 80, but not very often. Now if I open just one SMP client, the temps hit 80.

    The fan is on right.
    As for the thermal paste.... I rubbed it on the bottom of the heatsink (what the manual said) filling in the cracks. Then I put a little dot on my cpu. Maybe it is still too much? Or maybe I need a better thermal paste...? this stuff came with the heat sink and had no name on it.

    I just put a thermometer in my case and its reading 30 degrees Celsius. The temperature around my computer is usually 20-30 degrees Celsius depending on the time of day and if my window is open. But even when I take the door off the case, and blow a big fan right in the case the cpu temp only changes a couple degrees.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Drummer, you are smart to fill in the gaps between the supports and the heatpipes on the base. If, however, you apply paste to the rest of the base, you should not then apply it also to the CPU's heatspreader. Yes, you would end up with considerably more paste than needed. So yes, fill in the gaps first, then either 1) apply a thin coat to the flat part of the base or 2) spread a thin coat on the processor's heatspreader. There is no single best way for the heatpipe direct touch heatsinks. It all depends on the particular heatsink and especially the viscosity (thickness) of the thermal paste.

    Your generic paste may also be holding you back. What is the temperature difference under full load if you run with the case side off?

    EDIT: Apologies. I made my comments initially without reading your post very well. The paste application you described is valid. I have though, had better results using the method I described above - fill in the gaps then spread paste thinly on either base or the heatspreader. For thicker paste, it might work better to spread on the CPU heatspreader. Use a razor blade or credit card to make the layer as thin as possible.
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Leonardo wrote:
    Drummer, you are smart to fill in the gaps between the supports and the heatpipes on the base. If, however, you apply paste to the rest of the base, you should not then apply it also to the CPU's heatspreader. Yes, you would end up with considerably more paste than needed. So yes, fill in the gaps first, then either 1) apply a thin coat to the flat part of the base or 2) spread a thin coat on the processor's heatspreader. There is no single best way for the heatpipe direct touch heatsinks. It all depends on the particular heatsink and especially the viscosity (thickness) of the thermal paste.

    Your generic paste may also be holding you back. What is the temperature difference under full load if you run with the case side off?

    EDIT: Apologies. I made my comments initially without reading your post very well. The paste application you described is valid. I have though, had better results using the method I described above - fill in the gaps then spread paste thinly on either base or the heatspreader. For thicker paste, it might work better to spread on the CPU heatspreader. Use a razor blade or credit card to make the layer as thin as possible.

    Thanks a lot Leonardo.
    I see that radio shack carries Arctic silver 5. I am gonna try and run out an pick some up tomorrow.
    That is where I screwed up. I filled in the cracks and had an even spread on the heatsink.... then I put a dot on the cpu. Which was probably to much, like you said.

    I kept trying to find the best way to apply it... but some people said a dot, some said a horizontal line, some said a vertical line.

    So ill just get some AS5, fill in the cracks and then spread a thin layer on the cpu heatspreader. Like a thin layer on the whole top of the cpu?

    Also: with the door off it barley changes. The MB and North Bridge temps will lower quite a bit with the door off, but the CPU temp might change a couple degrees and thats it.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    I kept trying to find the best way to apply it... but some people said a dot, some said a horizontal line, some said a vertical line.
    And they are all right. It just depends on the individual heatsink, they thickness of the paste, and they type of surface to be cooled.

    Here's a really good guide on thermal paste application. Their method for HDT heatsinks actually works quite well, but I prefer what I described above.
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Leonardo wrote:
    And they are all right. It just depends on the individual heatsink, they thickness of the paste, and they type of surface to be cooled.

    Here's a really good guide on thermal paste application. Their method for HDT heatsinks actually works quite well, but I prefer what I described above.

    Thanks a lot,
    Very nice guide there.

    I will try your method. It makes sense. Why waste time with dots and lines trying to find out what spreads the best, when you could just spread a thin layer yourself.
  • edited September 2009
    Here are good suggestions from experts. I would certainly try them but let me add one more possibility that your cpu might be a dud. I had a similar problem with a Q6600. It was heating up too much, way beyond people report and that is with a TRUE 120 (both cpu and heatsink lapped). I tried different TIMs, different techniques/orientations of heatsink installation, tried increasing the heatsink pressure with washers, even replaced the MB; no help. Finally, I had to settle at 3.3GHz. Be careful and do not destroy your hardware while trying extreme things with frustration (like increasing the heatsink pressure with too thick washers and such).
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Well. I got some Arctic Silver 5. I cleaned off the CPU and the heat sink real good. I also used screen cleaner type towel to prevent any lint. I then took the AS5 and I filled in the cracks on my heatsink.... then I smoothed in a thin layer on the CPU with an old credit card.

    I was excited. Expected the new thermal paste to work really well. But, I only got a drop of a few degrees on idle, and it still hits 50 degrees idle sometimes. Then at about half load, its hitting anywhere from 60-73 still.

    The temperature outside my case is 24 degrees. My case is cold... I just turned it on for the first time in 3 hours.

    Ran a prime95 test to get 100% load..... CPU Temperatures immediately hit 82-84 degrees, and real temp starting sounding an alarm.
    :shakehead

    Here is how I applied the new Thermal Paste. Not the best, but it was harder than I thought.
    img00008200909191832.th.jpg

    And here is a snapshot of me running the Prime95 tests and right away hitting 83 degrees. And it hit 84, then I shut prime95 off.
    tempst.th.jpg
  • lordbeanlordbean Ontario, Canada
    edited September 2009
    when you overclocked your CPU, did you manually configure your voltages? If you've left them on Auto in the motherboard, it may be pumping too much power through your CPU. Try switching to manual and tuning it to the minimum required voltage for stability.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Mirage, I know exactly what you're talking about. One of my Q6600s is just beastly hot no matter what I do. The luck (unluck) of the draw.
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    lordbean wrote:
    when you overclocked your CPU, did you manually configure your voltages? If you've left them on Auto in the motherboard, it may be pumping too much power through your CPU. Try switching to manual and tuning it to the minimum required voltage for stability.

    Yea I tried multiple voltages. From I tried 1.25, 1.23 and 1.22
    Neither changed anything. :(

    Something has to be way wrong......... I just don't get it. I went in and set my BIOS to default. Set the clock speed and everything all the way back to 2.66ghz. And the temperatures got worse. And this thing is idling at 51 degrees right now. At stock speed, I cannot even open an SMP folding client because it starts hitting 80 right away. (and thats only 55% load)

    I was awoken last night to this thing hitting 75-80 degrees, and all it was doing was running an AVG scan. :shakehead

    I really hope my CPU is fine. If not, im screwed. I don't have the money to get a new one, and I won't anytime soon. I noticed there are 2 lines on my CPU even after I clean it. I think that these are just from the Heatsink because they kind of look like tiny scratches. I don't know, but no matter what I do, I just cant get this thing any cooler.

    img00006200909191809.th.jpg
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Trumandrummer,

    It looks to me, from your pictures, that you are applying the AS5 too thick. This is how I always apply my thermal goop and I've never had any cooling issues even using a stock cooler.

    1) Remove the cooler, wipe off any excess compound with a paper towel or something along those lines.
    2) Clean the base of the heatsink and the heat spreader on the CPU with rubbing alcohol. Try and find 99% pure rubbing alcohol if you can, though 95% should suffice.
    3) Let the surfaces dry (should only take a minute or so) and wipe them down with a lint free cloth (such as the type sold to clean glasses or monitors)
    4) Put a SMALL (less than pea sized) dab of Arctic Silver on the base of your heatsink.
    5) Wrap a plastic baggie, or some plastic wrap around your finger and use it to rub the compound into the base of the heatsink. Use a circular motion. Wipe off any excess. You should not be able to see any compound sitting on top of the surface when you're done, the base of the heatsink should simply be slightly discolored.
    6) Apply a small dab to the heat spreader on your CPU, I like to put it in one corner.
    7) Use a razor blade (credit card CAN work in a pinch, but really, spend the 3 bucks and get some razor blades to do it right). Use the razor blade to spread the compound along the heat spreader. When you're done you should only have a slight haze on the CPU. Last time I looked at Arctic Silver's instructions they said that you should be able to still see the printing and whatnot through the compound. Make sure you have as even of a coat as possible and like I said, it should only be a very thin haze.
    8) Make sure your heatsink is lined up properly. Ideally you want to press the heatsink straight on and lock it in place without any twisting or anything like that.
    9) It takes a few heat cycles before the compound will set up completely and provide its best thermal bond. I would suggest running your computer all day and shutting it off at night for the first few days. Then rerun your thermal tests. If it's still running hot, sorry man, you got a bad processor.
  • SnarkasmSnarkasm Madison, WI Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    AS's most recent instructions generally recommend a line of paste in the middle of the chip at the die junction.
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Snarkasm wrote:
    AS's most recent instructions generally recommend a line of paste in the middle of the chip at the die junction.

    Well, Im gonna take it apart and look at how the heatsink was contacting the thermal paste. Then I am gonna try the line method that AS5 recommends.


    It got worse. I cant even run my computer. This is so unstable. I went to check my computer... and the screen was black. Nothing would come up. So I turned it off, and turned it back on. Im at 2.66ghz (stock) and 1.23v. And I am idleing at 60 degrees now. I ran a prime 95 test and it hit 86 degrees right away and was still climbing. I had to shut prime off.

    This is just crazy. 86 degrees at stock.
    wtfwf.th.jpg
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Well, I know what the problem is.
    The Heatsink was only touching the thermal paste on the cpu at the edges. Which means that there was probably a decent amount of air or space between the center of the cpu and the heatsink.

    img00013200909201651.th.jpg

    The bad part about this is. I had the heatsink tightened down pretty damn tight. I don't want to do anything drastic, like force to much pressure on it.

    I am gonna try the line method and see how well the contact is.
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    That TIM pattern isn't necessarily indicative of your conclusion. There's a better way to do it:

    Get a piece of glass and put some water in a small puddle in the center. Clean the heatsink and set the base down on the water... If there's water in the center of the sink, then the base is concave.

    Alternatively you can place a piece of paper edge-on on the base of the heatsink. That is, put the thin edge of the paper down across the center of the heatsink. If any light gets through, the heatsink is concave.
  • SnarkasmSnarkasm Madison, WI Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Only lapping will get you around that issue if your surfaces are indeed not making contact - that's sanding down both parts (the CPU's IHS and the heatsink's contact surface). If you have a core-contact cooler, which it sounds like you do, that could be sketchy.
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Thrax wrote:
    That TIM pattern isn't necessarily indicative of your conclusion. There's a better way to do it:

    Get a piece of glass and put some water in a small puddle in the center. Clean the heatsink and set the base down on the water... If there's water in the center of the sink, then the base is concave.

    Alternatively you can place a piece of paper edge-on on the base of the heatsink. That is, put the thin edge of the paper down across the center of the heatsink. If any light gets through, the heatsink is concave.

    Well I just read this post after I had put everything back together. So I did not get to try this yet. But I tried the line method of applying the paste, I tightened down the heatsink, then took it off. And the contact seemed good. You could tell that the heat sink was touching the paste.

    It is a little better. 45 degrees idle, and 65-72 degrees at 100% load with prime 95. Which are safe temps for the i7. But this is still at stock speeds.

    I am gonna let the thermal paste wear in like it says and see if I see any improvements within the next few days.
  • edited September 2009
    Any updates, TD? Have you decided to lap?

    Leonardo, our problem might be due to internal thermal interface between the core and IHS, given that lapping did not help. But I would never try popping the IHS again after destroying my precious Opty165.
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    mirage wrote:
    Any updates, TD? Have you decided to lap?

    Leonardo, our problem might be due to internal thermal interface between the core and IHS, given that lapping did not help. But I would never try popping the IHS again after destroying my precious Opty165.

    Yea, I am having trouble deciding what to do.

    The temperatures are not terrible now. I get around 45-50 degrees idle, and mid 70s at full load while overclocked to 3.2ghz (hyper threading off). Those are safe working temperatures. But I have read about people getting their i7 920 over 3.5 or 3.8ghz with just air cooling.

    ...... I think I am gonna try lapping it tomorrow.
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    The people who crack 3.8 and 4.0GHz, to be fair, have altogether more robust heatsinks than the Dark Knight.
  • BuddyJBuddyJ Dept. of Propaganda OKC Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Ditch your Dark Knight and get this.
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Well maybe I am just reaching the max that the dark knight can handle. I guess I could try another heatsink.

    Buddy J. that looks like a good heatskink. But I think that if I get a new one, I will get a bigger one. Maybe more heat pipes and a little more money.

    What do you guys think about this one. 7 heat pipes (as opposed to the 3 that I have now)
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233032&cm_re=xigmatek_i7-_-35-233-032-_-Product

    I really like the black nickel look that xigmatek puts on these. It matches my case a lot better than I think silver does.
  • SnarkasmSnarkasm Madison, WI Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    I think you care more about aesthetics than you do about getting to 4GHz. Why don't you just keep the Dark Knight and be happy with your 3.4, then?
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Snarkasm wrote:
    I think you care more about aesthetics than you do about getting to 4GHz. Why don't you just keep the Dark Knight and be happy with your 3.4, then?

    No it is not that at all.
    Yea sure it would be nice if the heat sink looked nice also but that is secondary to me. I could not find much more information and statistics about the Thermalright Cogage True Spirit. I was researching heatsinks for the LGA 1366 socket, and I found this

    q1-09_cpu_cooler_results_vertical_d12sh-12_OC.png

    This was posted in Benchmark Reviews' "Best CPU cooler performance 2009" article. The Prolimatech Megahalems seems to out perform them all. Followed by the Thermalright Ultra 120 and then Xigmateks Thors hammer.

    I am not sure that the Megahalems will fit in my case. It is not a small case, but it is pretty crowded. So I figured it would be between the Ultra 120 and the Thors hammer....
    I wasn't just saying that because of the looks of the heatsink. I just mentioned that I like the black nickel.

    It doesn't mean that I would not get a better heatsink based on performance instead of looks. Sorry if it sounded like I am all about aesthetics and stuff, but that is not what I intended. :)

    I would really like to try the Megahalems with a push-pull setup. I just have to find out if it will fit. I have read from multiple sites, that it is one of the best coolers for the i7.
  • SnarkasmSnarkasm Madison, WI Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    I'm just trolling you. :)

    The U120 are good sinks, and everybody that's used or tested them will stand by them. The Megahalems are top dogs, designed specifically for the Nehalems, though.
  • edited September 2009
    Megahelms is not taller than TRUE-120, see the dimensions following the links. It will most probably fit in your case.
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Snarkasm wrote:
    I'm just trolling you. :)

    The U120 are good sinks, and everybody that's used or tested them will stand by them. The Megahalems are top dogs, designed specifically for the Nehalems, though.

    Yea, I know :D
    So what your saying is.... Its pretty much the one I need. lol. Made specifically for my CPU.

    mirage -
    Your right. In fact it I just read that it is shorter than my Dark Knight. The DK is 159mm height and the Megahalem is 158mm H. But it is a lot wider and longer than the DK.

    The Megahalem with a fan might hover over my first stick of ram. Which I guess wouldn't be a problem because my sticks are pretty short.
  • SnarkasmSnarkasm Madison, WI Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    My Scythe Infinity stretched over my RAM slots as well. It was a pain when I needed to test or swap sticks, but nothing you can't get around.
  • TrumandrummerTrumandrummer Taylor Michigan Icrontian
    edited September 2009
    Snarkasm wrote:
    My Scythe Infinity stretched over my RAM slots as well. It was a pain when I needed to test or swap sticks, but nothing you can't get around.

    Well I don't think I will be swapping sticks or anything anytime soon.
    So.... its looking like maybe the megahalem then.

    But.... I have been thinking, would It be better if I got a cheaper water cooling kit. Kind of like this
    http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=602&products_id=25081
    But something that obviously fits the LGA 1366 socket.?? Maybe somewhere between 80-150 bucks? or are water cooling systems that cheap kinda of pointless?
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