Wow didnt realize that was that old and how slow those things are, thanks for the informative article, definitely would support them getting rid of those on high end and all motherboards eventually.
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2009
I don't think it's an arbitrary reluctance by manufacturers to dump the PCI capability. It is more likely the millions upon millions of consumers have PCI-interface cards, who don't want to purchase new cards. The motherboard manufacturers will implement whatever available technology that they think will be profitable.
I don't think that's true, Leo. Do you remember when ABIT released the MAX3 motherboards? No legacy connectors of any kind: No serial, no parallel, no PS/2. This very community was thrilled by the development because we were happy to see quaint, old, dumb standards go. PCI is no different.
If high-end mobo vendors start offering high-end motherboards that preclude PCI, they will be bought by customers who understand what they're getting into. There are already WiFi adapters which fit x1 slots, and that fulfills damn near everyone's AIB needs.
It really is time to kill PCI on the high end and start the trickle down.
maybe just maybe we'll see PCI slots make their slow death a little faster once PCIe 3.0 is released.
But consider the number of PCIe products, now compare that to the number of PCI products. New currently being released.
2 years ago few OEM mobos had PCIe for anything but graphics, only in the last year has OEM mobos been released with no PCI (my father bought a HP that was stocked with PCIe x1 slots and one PCIe x16 slot) I'm guessing replacement mobos and enthusiast mobos keep a pci slot around in case you have any legacy hardware. but the OEM boards are going a different direction.
Some of us still use Texas Instrument interface cards that are upwards 1k for a new one, and they aren't even available in PCI-E yet.. slacking motherboard vendors or not, I'm thankful
I just purchased a pair of PCI wireless network cards for desktops, not so much because I wanted to, but that was what was reasonably available for that application.
I just purchased a pair of PCI wireless network cards for desktops, not so much because I wanted to, but that was what was reasonably available for that application.
D-Link makes a range of excellent PCIe wireless adapters that are no more pricey than their normal sort.
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2009
I mean seriously how many people still use floppys & ps2 port?
I still use floppy drives for flashing mobo BIOSes because I can't get flashing from a USB device to work. I only connect the floppy drive if I need to flash, which is rarely. I also use PS/2 motherboards and mice, simply because the couple I still have work well and don't need replacing yet. I have no PCI devices left. The last were PCI wireless cards, which I sold when I got fed up with wireless and wired the house for Ethernet.
If you look at retail stores - at least in my area, probably half the the network cards on the shelves are still PCI. We need to remember that the ordinary computer user does not upgrade to new standards as fast as the typical Icrontic reader.
Nobody is proposing we wipe PCI off the map in a single generation. Just like nobody proposed it for AGP, or any other legacy port. But what DID happen is those ports started going away on high-end parts to get the market used to the concept, and then it was slowly phased down into the budget parts over several years.
We're almost 5 years out on PCIe, and that has not occurred and shows no signs of occurring. That is what needs to happen. Someone has to pull the trigger.
Right, but basically every motherboard made in the past 5 years has really high quality on-board audio and network.
And, if the onboard fails or is not usable for some reason, there are dozens of PCI Express audio cards and network cards.
Besides, are people buying NEW motherboards made in the next two years REALLY going to need PCI slots? Why?
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2009
Right, but basically every motherboard made in the past 5 years has really high quality on-board audio and network.
I think that's the key. Due to yesterday's add-ons being merely integrated chips on modern motherboards, there's less demand for expansion parts. For the majority of consumers, they get what they need straight out of the Dell, Acer, or HP box. If they need something more, it's usually got a USB cable on it. I think we'll see USB 3 make a much quicker mainstream presence than PCI-e.
Hey, I would prefer to see PCI wiped off the map tomorrow. Onboard audio and LAN works very well, and the market's raging fascination with omg 14.12 audio channels has subsided. People no longer care about creative or their shitacular drivers, and nobody can fill the void because Creative has EAX on lockdown.
For WiFi, there are tons of PCIe WiFi adapters. For RAID, you'd be insane or stupid not to have at LEAST a PCIe 8x adapter sitting in your box, or you're using onboard software RAID.
Basically, the only argument in favor of keeping PCI is: "But my bargain basement wireless card still works okay. "
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2009
Basically, the only argument in favor of keeping PCI is: "But my bargain basement wireless card still works okay.
LOL, and for most of them giving that explanation, it does work well...enough. But yeah, I also wouldn't mind seeing PCI gone for good. (with dual 9800GX2s, there's no room for PCI cards anyway ) Give me more PCI-e video slots and...oh, but then...I'd need another round of PSU upgrades. Never mind.
PCI express isn't any more expensive to build cards for than PCI. In fact, when the process is mature, I'd have to guess it'd be cheaper because you can build cards that are physically smaller for PCI express.
No reason why we can't have bargain basement PCI express wireless cards.
D-Link makes a range of excellent PCIe wireless adapters that are no more pricey than their normal sort.
On all of newegg there is one that is priced $55. I purchased adapters that will suit my needs perfectly fine for about $15.
Standard PCI wireless desktop cards outnumber PCI Express about 1000 to 1 right now. I'm not particularly pleased that is the case, but it is what it is.
Cliff, that's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Consumers aren't buying PCI express because of low product selection, manufacturers aren't making PCI express products because PCI is more mature and "burned in", and motherboard manufacturers haven't forced them to think any differently because they haven't dropped PCI from their boards. All of this would change if, starting tomorrow, every new motherboard was to include PCI express slots only. Product selection in PCI express would increase dramatically, production would ramp up to match demand, and prices would soon drop as the PCI express manufacturing process became standard.
^^which is the point I echoed, Volume of product selection is king to consumers. as well as lowest price point (which also comes from volume and competition)
I also think we can thank the recession for a lot of people avoiding replacing computers, they have been upgrading or replacing parts to keep their current systems running. My father in-law one of those who is still using a P4 2.4Ghz system with part after part being replaced (except the CPU and Mobo) He's one of the masses that help drive the PCI world as he replaces parts to maintain a functional computer (we hope he'll finally commit to replacing his system, but he's holding out for total death)
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2009
Volume of product selection is king to consumers
And total volume shipped is one of the major deciding factors a manufacturer considers. Why put a big emphasis on PCI-e interface, when apart from aftermarket video cards, there is not the volume of add-on card sales that there was just a few years ago? It used to be that just about anything quality needed to be at the expansion port. As we discussed earlier, those features are now on board and the quality is acceptable for most users. I don't need an Ethernet card anymore, or wireless, or sound, or multi-USB (card). Heck, just five years ago I remember the standard advice we gave to home builders was to turn off the integrated sound and order a sound card.
Well I did buy a discrete sound card when I got my last motherboard.
The ASUS Crosshair II Formula, the supplied onboard sound was ridiculously poor and I went and got myself a discrete card.
The Asus Xonar D2, which has it's own set of interesting driver issues though.
Although parallel and serial topologies of PCI and PCI-E are entirely different, chipset manufacturers are still integrating PCI bus along with PCI-E at the additional cost. Apparently they see the benefit. PCI will only die after Intel and AMD stop offering the PCI bus on their chipsets. It does not matter if the motherboard manufacturer omit the port or not, we will not have the port but PCI will be inside the chipset running all the time.
Although parallel and serial topologies of PCI and PCI-E are entirely different, chipset manufacturers are still integrating PCI bus along with PCI-E at the additional cost. Apparently they see the benefit. PCI will only die after Intel and AMD stop offering the PCI bus on their chipsets. It does not matter if the motherboard manufacturer omit the port or not, we will not have the port but PCI will be inside the chipset running all the time.
It doesn't matter whether it's in the chipset or not. If no physical ports are available, no PCI devices can be put in the computer, hence forcing PCI express devices to be used.
So you think it does not matter if the chipset does not support PCI? They can still add a fake PCI port for decoration, I guess Or, add an additional PCI controller chip next to IDE controller for free.
So you think it does not matter if the chipset does not support PCI? They can still add a fake PCI port for decoration, I guess Or, add an additional PCI controller chip next to IDE controller for free.
I'll grant you, if Intel and AMD drop PCI right out of their chipsets, that'd be the fastest way to get people to switch over. What I'm saying is, from the standpoint of getting add-in card manufacturers to switch, it doesn't matter if the chipset still supports PCI - it won't help if there are no PCI slots on the motherboard.
I'll grant you, if Intel and AMD drop PCI right out of their chipsets, that'd be the fastest way to get people to switch over. What I'm saying is, from the standpoint of getting add-in card manufacturers to switch, it doesn't matter if the chipset still supports PCI - it won't help if there are no PCI slots on the motherboard.
Remember the initial outcry when Microsoft stopped supporting DOS?
Recently there has been some to-do over AMD dropping support for legacy graphics products, basically anything prior to DX9.
What everyone is saying here is right, its up to the industry to drive innovation, not the consumer.
lordbean
Ontario, Canada
Comments
If high-end mobo vendors start offering high-end motherboards that preclude PCI, they will be bought by customers who understand what they're getting into. There are already WiFi adapters which fit x1 slots, and that fulfills damn near everyone's AIB needs.
It really is time to kill PCI on the high end and start the trickle down.
But consider the number of PCIe products, now compare that to the number of PCI products. New currently being released.
2 years ago few OEM mobos had PCIe for anything but graphics, only in the last year has OEM mobos been released with no PCI (my father bought a HP that was stocked with PCIe x1 slots and one PCIe x16 slot) I'm guessing replacement mobos and enthusiast mobos keep a pci slot around in case you have any legacy hardware. but the OEM boards are going a different direction.
D-Link makes a range of excellent PCIe wireless adapters that are no more pricey than their normal sort.
If you look at retail stores - at least in my area, probably half the the network cards on the shelves are still PCI. We need to remember that the ordinary computer user does not upgrade to new standards as fast as the typical Icrontic reader.
We're almost 5 years out on PCIe, and that has not occurred and shows no signs of occurring. That is what needs to happen. Someone has to pull the trigger.
And, if the onboard fails or is not usable for some reason, there are dozens of PCI Express audio cards and network cards.
Besides, are people buying NEW motherboards made in the next two years REALLY going to need PCI slots? Why?
For WiFi, there are tons of PCIe WiFi adapters. For RAID, you'd be insane or stupid not to have at LEAST a PCIe 8x adapter sitting in your box, or you're using onboard software RAID.
Basically, the only argument in favor of keeping PCI is: "But my bargain basement wireless card still works okay.
I was happy to see AGP go away
No reason why we can't have bargain basement PCI express wireless cards.
On all of newegg there is one that is priced $55. I purchased adapters that will suit my needs perfectly fine for about $15.
Standard PCI wireless desktop cards outnumber PCI Express about 1000 to 1 right now. I'm not particularly pleased that is the case, but it is what it is.
I also think we can thank the recession for a lot of people avoiding replacing computers, they have been upgrading or replacing parts to keep their current systems running. My father in-law one of those who is still using a P4 2.4Ghz system with part after part being replaced (except the CPU and Mobo) He's one of the masses that help drive the PCI world as he replaces parts to maintain a functional computer (we hope he'll finally commit to replacing his system, but he's holding out for total death)
The ASUS Crosshair II Formula, the supplied onboard sound was ridiculously poor and I went and got myself a discrete card.
The Asus Xonar D2, which has it's own set of interesting driver issues though.
It doesn't matter whether it's in the chipset or not. If no physical ports are available, no PCI devices can be put in the computer, hence forcing PCI express devices to be used.
I'll grant you, if Intel and AMD drop PCI right out of their chipsets, that'd be the fastest way to get people to switch over. What I'm saying is, from the standpoint of getting add-in card manufacturers to switch, it doesn't matter if the chipset still supports PCI - it won't help if there are no PCI slots on the motherboard.
Remember the initial outcry when Microsoft stopped supporting DOS?
Recently there has been some to-do over AMD dropping support for legacy graphics products, basically anything prior to DX9.
What everyone is saying here is right, its up to the industry to drive innovation, not the consumer.