Server Plugin Thread

ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
edited February 2011 in Minecraft
Just starting a new thread to discuss possible plugins to be added/removed from the official server. Right now, as I mentioned before, the server is running the following three plugins: SimpleHome SimpleAtlanta and Whitelist from http://immortal-forces.net/

I'm thinking about also installing this plugin so we can track down those that have been stealing things:

http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/sec-bigbrother-1-5-watch-log-and-rollback-griefers-135.166/

It's a pretty complex plugin though and I would need to do some testing before installing it on the main server.

Anyone else have suggestions for fun/useful plugins or have input on the above?
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Comments

  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited January 2011
    Well... since it appears that minecraft.net is having connection problems again...

    /me shakes fist

    I'm going to take this moment to switch SimpleAtlanta (which I just noticed has been discontinued and shouldn't be used) out for PlayerList
  • MechfoxMechfox Texas
    edited January 2011
    That BB plugin is really complex. Potentially very useful, but I could also see information overload.
  • TonyRockyHorrorTonyRockyHorror Alexandria, VA
    edited February 2011
    I would love the achievement tracking of BB!

    Also, holy shit! I wish I had known SimpleHome was installed! My main base is nearly 1,400 blocks or more from spawn, and getting back there after dying is a bitch and a half!
  • CBCB Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Der Millionendorf- Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    Did we vote on SimpleHome? I thought one of the 'cheats' we removed on purpose was the ability to set a home point...
  • TonyRockyHorrorTonyRockyHorror Alexandria, VA
    edited February 2011
    CB wrote:
    Did we vote on SimpleHome? I thought one of the 'cheats' we removed on purpose was the ability to set a home point...

    it's not really a cheat.
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    CB wrote:
    Did we vote on SimpleHome? I thought one of the 'cheats' we removed on purpose was the ability to set a home point...

    No, I had it on the test server so it ended up getting copied over to the official server when I flipped the switch on bukkit. I didn't remove it since no one seemed to mind it being there. If enough people would like it removed, I will do so.
  • CBCB Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Der Millionendorf- Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    Yes, it's really a cheat. It makes cavern exploration (the only really dangerous part of the game right now) not dangerous anymore, since you don't have to worry about having to try to run to your stuff when you die (which is the only penalty for death).
  • TonyRockyHorrorTonyRockyHorror Alexandria, VA
    edited February 2011
    CB wrote:
    Yes, it's really a cheat. It makes cavern exploration (the only really dangerous part of the game right now) not dangerous anymore, since you don't have to worry about having to try to run to your stuff when you die (which is the only penalty for death).

    That is cheating behavior. And if you're doing that then you are cheating. But /home is a legitimate tool with a valid and useful function.

    Ardi, can the /sethome command be disabled selectively. As in, everyone gets to set their home, then the command is turned off so that only /home works? Or, I assume that SimpleHome has a config file. Can we all just send you preferred /home coords, and you can set the values in the file for each of us? Either way, CB can not worry about cheaters.
  • BobbyDigiBobbyDigi ? R U #Hats ! TX Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    I would vote for removing any kind of warp tool. Takes quite a bit of adventure out of the game.

    -Digi
  • MechfoxMechfox Texas
    edited February 2011
    I like the home command. Makes working on lava tunnels easier. I set myself on fire with startling frequency.

    It's not as if you can't opt out of using it yourself. Hell, I didn't know it existed (and thus didn't use it) until yesterday.
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    Don't have that kind of fine-grained control over the command with this plugin Tony.

    Seems we have a split decision here at the moment. Bobby and CB, I'm sorry, but both of you have made arguments that strike me as rather shallow. If you think it takes adventure out of the game, then simply don't use it. I don't see how having the plugin available to those who want to use it affects those who don't. Unless we have a majority of players that want it removed, or a compelling argument is made as to how the plugin affects people that don't want to use it, I don't see the need to remove it.
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    I think that minecraft is, at its core, a sandbox style game environment. What that means to me is that it can be played in any way that the user really desires within the bounds of the design. So if you think it loses adventure by using the plugin, then don't use it. If you are the type of sandbox game player who plays the game just to build cool stuff and might even engage in a cheat code or two during a simcity game, then why not have the home plugin?
  • CBCB Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Der Millionendorf- Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    Because it's there. And when I'm flipping out in a cavern somewhere, thinking I'm about to die, and loose three days worth of diamonds, I'm going to convince myself that it's okay to use it, just this once.

    Also, partly, it's a matter of principle: Our SOP should not be to add expansions, then wait for people to object and vote it down. We should be voting on new expansions before they get added.
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    CB wrote:
    Because it's there. And when I'm flipping out in a cavern somewhere, thinking I'm about to die, and loose three days worth of diamonds, I'm going to convince myself that it's okay to use it, just this once.

    Also, partly, it's a matter of principle: Our SOP should not be to add expansions, then wait for people to object and vote it down. We should be voting on new expansions before they get added.

    Then learn some self control. No one is making you use it but yourself, you have only yourself to blame. Your argument is akin to an alcoholic blaming the liquor store on the corner for his drinking problem because they sell alcohol.

    Like I said, the home plugin got roped in when I moved bukkit from my test environment to the stable one. It was a one time deal (call it a mistake if you will) but now that it's there, I'm not going to take it away from the people that want it unless, as I already said, (A) most of the players don't want it or (B) a compelling argument can be made as to how it affects those that don't want to use the plugin. The "it's there, I'll be tempted to use it" argument doesn't pass muster with me.
  • BobbyDigiBobbyDigi ? R U #Hats ! TX Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    The way it was:
    A. Member sees value in Plugin, Brings up Plugin to community
    B. Opinions given if liked or not, Pros & Cons of Plugin discussed
    C. Democratic vote
    D. Enough people want it (or don't mind it), Yes wins, Mod installed

    Now:
    A. Mod is installed
    B. Opinions given if liked or not
    C. Name calling by Admin for those who don't like it
    D. Plugin stays unless Admin is satisfied with reason to remove

    I have a couple reasons why I wouldn't want /Home installed but would love for it to be installed if the majority of players voted for it. The fact of the matter is, it wasn't even brought up as a "Can we has?", It was just installed.

    -Digi
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    As I said, the only reason it was installed was because it got carried over from my test environment. This wasn't some malicious change on my part, it was a simple oversight. Now that it's there and some people are used to it (and like it) I'm hesitant to remove it.
  • BobbyDigiBobbyDigi ? R U #Hats ! TX Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    ardichoke wrote:
    As I said, the only reason it was installed was because it got carried over from my test environment. This wasn't some malicious change on my part, it was a simple oversight. Now that it's there and some people are used to it (and like it) I'm hesitant to remove it.

    I understand this and I'm not rallying to remove it. As soon as it was questioned it should have gone to a vote. Instead both opinions apposed to yours were called shallow and the message I got was "Change my opinion and I will remove it"

    I'll update my table to include your restated information:

    The way it was:
    A. Member sees value in Plugin, Brings up Plugin to community
    B. Opinions given if liked or not, Pros & Cons of Plugin discussed
    C. Democratic vote
    D. Enough people want it (or don't mind it), Yes wins, Mod installed

    Now:
    A. Mod is installed (doesn't matter how, notice this is A and not D)
    B. Opinions given if liked or not
    C. Name calling by Admin for those who don't like it, Others that like it are used as justification for install
    D. Plugin stays unless Admin is satisfied with reason to remove


    Now that we are here, I believe this sort of situation can still be handled in a democratic manor:
    A. Mod is installed (doesn't matter how, Shit happens, we all know that)
    B. Install is questioned
    C. Opinions given if liked or not, Pros & Cons of Plugin discussed
    D. Democratic vote
    E. Enough people want it (or don't mind it), Yes wins, Mod Stays. If not, Mod uninstalled.


    Edit to clarify: I think if this did go to vote that it will pass staying. Others may feel strongly enough to create a poll about removing it. I'm more concerned about the way this particular issue was handled when it was questioned. I was insulted, just trying to keep it civil.

    -Digi
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    The /home command was deliberately removed on all prior versions of the server to support Minecraft's risks and penalties for death and exploration.
  • the_technocratthe_technocrat IC-MotY1 Indy Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    BobbyDigi wrote:
    I would vote for removing any kind of warp tool. Takes quite a bit of adventure out of the game.

    -Digi

    +1
  • the_technocratthe_technocrat IC-MotY1 Indy Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    ardichoke wrote:
    Don't have that kind of fine-grained control over the command with this plugin Tony.

    Seems we have a split decision here at the moment. Bobby and CB, I'm sorry, but both of you have made arguments that strike me as rather shallow. If you think it takes adventure out of the game, then simply don't use it. I don't see how having the plugin available to those who want to use it affects those who don't. Unless we have a majority of players that want it removed, or a compelling argument is made as to how the plugin affects people that don't want to use it, I don't see the need to remove it.

    What it does is make the game easy for people who want to use it, and makes the talent of people who don't need it less valuable.
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    Bobby, I'm not trying to be insulting to you or to CB. What I was saying was that the argument you were making doesn't hold water. If you don't want to use the module, then you don't have to. If other people do, then they can. If other people using the module affected people that didn't want to use it then I'd remove it and people could petition to have it re-added if they wanted. As it is right now, the argument that you and CB are making is basically "I'll be tempted to use it so it should be removed." That plus the fact that as it is right now there are just as many people saying they want the module as there are saying they want it removed means I don't feel compelled to remove it.
  • the_technocratthe_technocrat IC-MotY1 Indy Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    BobbyDigi wrote:
    The way it was:
    A. Member sees value in Plugin, Brings up Plugin to community
    B. Opinions given if liked or not, Pros & Cons of Plugin discussed
    C. Democratic vote
    D. Enough people want it (or don't mind it), Yes wins, Mod installed

    Now:
    A. Mod is installed
    B. Opinions given if liked or not
    C. Name calling by Admin for those who don't like it
    D. Plugin stays unless Admin is satisfied with reason to remove

    I have a couple reasons why I wouldn't want /Home installed but would love for it to be installed if the majority of players voted for it. The fact of the matter is, it wasn't even brought up as a "Can we has?", It was just installed.

    -Digi

    Or:

    A. One person decides to host server
    B. Said person gets to dictate how the community is run on said server

    Sorry, but your personal opinions about what we as a community want to do on the server should be the same as anyone else. Hosting the server isn't a license to be a dictatorship (or in your own words from the server console, a God to us mortals).

    Kudos to you for hosting the server, but it's not an entitlement to any kind of authority in-game. This is a community effort, and if you can't handle the responsibility, maybe we should look for a different host. We certainly didn't have any of these idealogical (or performance/reliability, for that matter) issues when Ryder of Thrax were hosting. To me, that's pretty telling.
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    What it does is make the game easy for people who want to use it, and makes the talent of people who don't need it less valuable.

    If Minecraft was a competitive game, I'd agree with you. The game is essentially a big sandbox creation game. As such, I personally disagree with you. This isn't a plugin that allows someone to spawn a bunch of material to build with, it just lets them jump to a single pre-defined point.

    Could it be abused to get them out of danger? Sure. How does that affect you playing this game though? You gain nothing from another player dying and you lose nothing when another player doesn't die. (At least not on the IC server anyway).

    That all said, if you guys want the plugin removed, create a poll, if we have enough players vote to remove it then I'll remove it. I believe I've said this before but no one ever created the poll.
  • BobbyDigiBobbyDigi ? R U #Hats ! TX Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    ardichoke wrote:
    Bobby, I'm not trying to be insulting to you or to CB.

    I know, I still love<3 me some Ardi. An no matter what comes of this I am still appreciative of you hosting the server.

    The rest of your post however is grouping CB's opinion in with mine. I've made no arguments, just stated my opinion. And as TT just pointed out above, my Water is as big as yours.... or TT's or CB's....ect.

    -Digi
  • the_technocratthe_technocrat IC-MotY1 Indy Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    ardichoke wrote:
    If Minecraft was a competitive game, I'd agree with you. The game is essentially a big sandbox creation game. As such, I personally disagree with you. This isn't a plugin that allows someone to spawn a bunch of material to build with, it just lets them jump to a single pre-defined point.

    Could it be abused to get them out of danger? Sure. How does that affect you playing this game though? You gain nothing from another player dying and you lose nothing when another player doesn't die. (At least not on the IC server anyway).

    That all said, if you guys want the plugin removed, create a poll, if we have enough players vote to remove it then I'll remove it. I believe I've said this before but no one ever created the poll.

    As in, I can accomplish X without the plugin. This is a point of pride with me and others.

    Now certain people can accomplish X with the plugin who otherwise would have had to figure out how to, as I did. For example, I explored a massive cave system that is still largely unexplored. Now I can easily explore the rest and get the resource rewards without much danger at all. If someone else had to fight for the same resources, their experience is now less meaningful retroactively. For people who have spent weeks doing these things without the benefit of a plugin, this is a problem.

    How about:

    1. create the poll yourself
    2. if the community wants it, we install it

    Don't forget, you're not installing a plugin on your server. you're choosing to change the way the community works.
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    I've made no arguments, just stated my opinion. And as TT just pointed out above, my Water is as big as yours.... or TT's or CB's....ect.
    Absolutely, I agree and if a majority of the players were crying out for the removal of the plugin, I would do so. As it is right now, we have 3 people out of the 76 on the whitelist asking for the plugin to be removed. Not exactly an overwhelming number.

    As for your characterization of me tt, have you bothered to read the whole discussion? As I've said multiple times, I did *NOT* add the plugin to be a dick or through some unilateral decision, it got copied over from my test server (which IS my playground, btw, and if you want to tell me what I can/cannot do there then you're nuts) when I made the switch to bukkit (something that was requested by the community so that the whitelist could be put back in place). Now that it's there, there is an extreme minority of people that have a problem with it, an equal number of people (also an extreme minority) that have vocally said that they want to keep it and the vast majority that have not said anything either way on the subject. If a majority decides to speak up and says remove it, then I'll heed the majority voice. If someone comes up with a damn good argument as to how the plugin affects gameplay for those that don't want it there just by being available for others, then and only then will I go against the silent majority and remove it without a majority vote telling me to do so.
  • the_technocratthe_technocrat IC-MotY1 Indy Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    Irrelevant. You added it to the production server, then asked. Wrong order.
  • colacola part legend, part devil... all man Balls deep Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    TT, I think you're going a bit far with this, he's said multiple times that he didn't add it on purpose, and I'm guessing it'd be a pain to go back and fix it so he wants the opinion of people before he goes and messes with the server. Perfectly justifiable if you ask me.
    BobbyDigi wrote:
    And as TT just pointed out above, my Water is as big as yours.... or TT's or CB's....ect.

    -Digi

    Mine's bigger.
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited February 2011
    It's not even that it would be a pain to remove. Plugins are quite easy to remove from bukkit. It's that it has been installed since we switched to bukkit and I don't want to deal with a mass backlash of angry people from me uninstalling the plugin unless the majority want it removed or I can point to a damn good argument for why it should be removed.
  • MechfoxMechfox Texas
    edited February 2011
    As in, I can accomplish X without the plugin. This is a point of pride with me and others.

    Now certain people can accomplish X with the plugin who otherwise would have had to figure out how to, as I did. For example, I explored a massive cave system that is still largely unexplored. Now I can easily explore the rest and get the resource rewards without much danger at all. If someone else had to fight for the same resources, their experience is now less meaningful retroactively. For people who have spent weeks doing these things without the benefit of a plugin, this is a problem.

    While that's true in theory, I'm not sure it's entirely true in practice. As I pointed out before, I use the /home command. I use it pretty much simply because I set myself on fire a lot tunneling through lava. I don't use it when I'm exploring the massive cave system that's ridiculously close to where I have my "home" set to. With the way I explore tunnels it's just kind of silly to even bother with it. I tend to do the "grab four or five torches, place, run back" thing rather than the "explore the cavern all at once" thing.

    I also have a tendency to drop all my stuff, leap off the nearest cliff/drown myself/immerse myself in lava in order to get back to spawn and things I have (relatively) near spawn quickly. (Or just to refill my health.) Effectively, I use respawning exactly like the /home command. Limited? Yes, and that's probably why people think it's okay. I have to drop all of my stuff or lose it in order to do it. But it's still warping from a point to another point. I just don't get to choose the point I warp to.
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