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Star Wars Episode VII discussion

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  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian

    @CrazyJoe said:
    So why don't they just start Episode VII with a giant death star coming back in time from the future and annilates Endor or something? Boom! New timeline and now they can do whatever they want.

    That's a great idea. It's not like JJ Abrams ever did anything like that before...

    TeramonaCreeperbane2Cliff_Forster
  • Creeperbane2Creeperbane2 Victorian Scoundrel Indianapolis, IN Icrontian
    edited May 2014

    Im just glad they didn't hire M Night Shamalanadingdong to direct (goes into a bad Last Airbender flashback)

  • Cliff_ForsterCliff_Forster Baltimore, MD Icrontian

    @Teramona said:

    My understanding is different. The EU was never canon. It was never to be considered canon. One of the joys of the EU was that any writer could do pretty much whatever they wanted because it's not canon. Lucas was never going to confine himself to another writers interpretation of events, and the writers didn't have to confine themselves to narrow space. Lucas pretty much said, you can't write about the events surrounding the conflict between Obi Wan and Vader because that's mine, but you guys do whatever else you want. The EU was never canon....

    Here is where I disagree with the Disney approach. Going forward all Star Wars content is to be woven into the canon, so everyone has to collaborate and make sure events are consistent, timelines are just so, that every writers interpretation of events has to be consistent. Who needs this? It's going to stifle artists from telling stories and creating new characters and planets on their own. It's going to stifle creativity. Continue to let the EU be non canon. It's fine that way, it's just Star Wars stories. They count no more or no less than the entertainment value you draw from them as you enjoy them.

  • ThraxThrax Professional Shill, Watch Slut, Mumble Hivemind Drone Austin, TX Icrontian

    EU was considered canon, just at a lower priority level to the movies, which could invalidate EU canon material at any time.

    Teramona
  • Cliff_ForsterCliff_Forster Baltimore, MD Icrontian

    @Thrax I'm not aware of Lucas at any point discussing this. Who considered it canon? Take something like Dark Empire. Fun story, but it's kinda dumb right? I mean Boba Fett is alive, the Emperor performs some magic trick to to cheat death and take physical form. Let's face it, if that is canon it robs Return of the Jedi of a lot of it's emotional weight and feeling of finality. That said, they are what they are, they are fun stories from a writers imagination, but I never considered them canon, even as I read them I knew they were totally off the wall. It was just a fun comics story, nothing more, nothing less. I don't know anyone that considered this a canon story. Plus so much of it was in conflict with what other writers were doing with it. Nobody can read all the EU content but I read enough to tell you some of it isn't consistent. It was never canon as far as I was concerned, and to me that was totally fine. It's just some writers having fun with Star Wars.

  • ThraxThrax Professional Shill, Watch Slut, Mumble Hivemind Drone Austin, TX Icrontian
  • CBCB Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Der Millionendorf- Icrontian
    edited May 2014

    There is no such thing as multiple levels of canon. And not Lucas nor anyone else has the power to invent them. Something is either part of the story, or it's not part of the story, saying 'it's canon as long as it doesn't contradict the real canon' is the same as saying it's not canon.

    Telling fans that it's a lower level of canon is not a literary or technical designation, it's just a thing you say to make fans happy.

  • ThraxThrax Professional Shill, Watch Slut, Mumble Hivemind Drone Austin, TX Icrontian

    I don't know how to say this without sounding like a dick:

    The official opinion from Lucasfilm, the Lucas estate, and the authority within those organizations responsible for reconciling the universe, completely disagree with what you just said.

  • MyrmidonMyrmidon Baron von Puttenham California Icrontian
    edited May 2014

    @CB said:
    There is no such thing as multiple levels of canon. And not Lucas nor anyone else has the power to invent them. Something is either part of the story, or it's not part of the story, saying it's 'canon, but it's lower priority' is the same as saying it's not canon.

    Telling fans that it's a lower level of canon is not a literary or technical designation, it's just a thing you say to make fans happy.

    I disagree with this, and I think I can give you a good proof that might change your mind. A "lower priority of canon" isn't synonymous with "not canon," it means "canon unless retconned by a higher priority canon."

    As a side note (to pre-empt an argument I think I can see coming), this doesn't mean we should despair and assume lower priorities will ALWAYS be rewritten at some point - it means we should consider on a situation-by-situation basis the PROBABILITY that lower priority canon will be rewritten, and accept how 'real' it might be to the universe in question. No situation exists in a vacuum, and to act like one does results in idealistic views that support arguments really well, but don't support our actions in reality.

    Here's an example of how 'lower priority of canon' is different from 'not canon:'

    1. I write a book (book 1) with character A and B. This is canon (high priority).
    2. A fan writes a book (book 2) in which character B meets character C, after the events of my book. This is low priority canon.
    3. Another fan writes a book (book 3) in which character C's backstory is fleshed out, during the events of my book. This is low priority canon.
    4. As the writer, I decide to revisit characters A and B, and deal with character C. I write a sequel (book 4) that takes place during the events of book 2. Regrettably, I cannot reconcile character B's interaction with C as written in book 2, so I retcon it. I enjoy how book 3 worked, however, and do not retcon THAT.

    In the situation where 'lower priority of canon' as explained above is acceptable:

    My characters in book 4 refer to the events in book 3 to assist in fleshing out character C's backstory. Book 2 is retconned successfully and it makes some people sad, but must be accepted for I am canon holder. Book 4 is written successfully.

    In the situation where there is no 'lower level', only noncanon books:

    I like book 3, but since it is not canon, I am FORCED to write out character C's backstory entirely on my own (obviously to the extent it is pertinent to the story, which in this example is tremendously). By the statement that book 3 is noncanon, I am forced to revisit every one of its pertinent events in book 4. Book 4 is now significantly longer than in the previous example. Meanwhile, I am not required to retcon book 2, because it was never canon to begin with.

    By accepting a 'lower priority of canon,' I reserve the right to continue with my creative endeavors unimpeded, while still making use of any 'hopeful' resources that surface from other parties without having to completely rewrite them myself. There is no ambiguity if I fail to rewrite the lower priority canon stuff, because it all still stands. In a binary canon/noncanon system, there will be significant ambiguity if I fail to rewrite the fan stuff.

    EDIT: I accidentally a word.

    SignalCantiRyanFodderTeramona
  • ThraxThrax Professional Shill, Watch Slut, Mumble Hivemind Drone Austin, TX Icrontian

    @Myrmidon said:
    I disagree with this, and I think I can give you a good proof that might change your mind. A "lower priority of canon" isn't synonymous with "not canon," it means "canon unless retconned by a higher priority canon."

    DING. This is exactly how Lucas approaches its universe.

    RyanFodderTeramona
  • CBCB Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Der Millionendorf- Icrontian

    They can have whatever opinion they want, but they don't have the power to create mid-levels of canon. There's simply no such thing. If a work is specifically being created, with foreknowledge, as a work which doesn't hold the top place in the canon, then it's not in the canon at all. It's essentially just fanfiction.

  • MyrmidonMyrmidon Baron von Puttenham California Icrontian
    edited May 2014

    Heh... case in point - if Lucas puts Mara Jade in the new books, he doesn't need to explain her backstory. Any backstory he explains will be true, and in any situation where his stuff contradicts currently written stuff, his stuff wins... but if he doesn't touch on her backstory at all, any backstory that wasn't invalidated continues to hold up.

    Look up St. Thomas Aquinas. This is a guy a long time ago (back when religious rule was still HIGHLY in use) that tried to reconcile the bible with science, using a very similar system... basically "science is always right until the bible contradicts it, then the bible is right. In case of contradiction, the scientific evidence isn't the whole picture, and other experiments may need to be done."

  • MyrmidonMyrmidon Baron von Puttenham California Icrontian
    edited May 2014

    @CB said:
    They can have whatever opinion they want, but they don't have the power to create mid-levels of canon. There's simply no such thing. If a work is specifically being created, with foreknowledge, as a work which doesn't hold the top place in the canon, then it's not in the canon at all. It's essentially just fanfiction.

    :( :( :( did you read my proof at all? It's like you completely ignored it... I put a lot of work into it. :(

    It IS essentially just fanfiction EXCEPT THAT IT CAN BE USED BY THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR FOR FUTURE WORKS. Can you not see how that's different?

  • CBCB Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Der Millionendorf- Icrontian
    edited May 2014

    I was paying attention, and it makes sense, but I have the same response: There is no such thing as semi-canon.

    In you're argument, it's perfectly valid for the author to say 'yes, I like that, that's canon now' or 'I don't like what you did there, so that's not canon' or even 'I had thought this was canon before, but now I need to do something new, so now this other thing is canon', or 'This is official work in the series, but it's not canon'. It would also be fine for him to not say anything and let the fans decide what is and is not part of the story for them. That's all valid, but actually creating something with the intent it be semi-canonical is not a thing. It's not canon until it is canon, and then when it's not anymore, it's not anymore. There is no between level.

  • ThraxThrax Professional Shill, Watch Slut, Mumble Hivemind Drone Austin, TX Icrontian

    In CB's universe, evidently that's true. But we're talking about Star Wars, and in their universe, that's their MO. Everything is considered canon, but could be invalidated at any time by a more authoritative work (a movie).

    Anything said to the contrary is merely an opinion, not a fact.

  • MyrmidonMyrmidon Baron von Puttenham California Icrontian

    @CB said:

    It's not canon until it is canon, and then when it's not anymore, it's not anymore. There is no between level.

    @CB said:
    In you're argument, it's perfectly valid for the author to say... 'I had thought this was canon before, but now I need to do something new, so now this other thing is canon', or 'This is official work in the series, but it's not canon'. It would also be fine for him to not say anything and let the fans decide what is and is not part of the story for them.

    So, the premises you put forth in these statements are the exact definition of low priority canon. It sounds, my friend, like you completely agree with the ability to have low priority canon in spirit, but what makes you unhappy is that it is given the concrete name 'semi-canon.' I unfortunately fail to see, at this point, why that would make you so upset - If you want, I can name it "canon with the caveat that ol' georgy might retcon it in the future," but what's in a name?

    Also, people aren't creating it with the intent that it is to be semi-canonical. When Timothy Zahn writes something, I'm willing to bet he's writing it to be accepted as canon. If you want, we can all start saying all our stuff is canon and then just waiting until Lucas retcons it WITHOUT the caveat that 'hey, this is likely to be retconned,' but what's so bad about giving people the heads up in advance?

  • KoreishKoreish I'm a penguin, deal with it. KCMO Icrontian
    edited May 2014

    I don't really care if they don't use the Expanded Universe so long as they include

    http://imgur.com/IjDG7zPJabba the Hawt

    Edit: I don't know how to post pics anymore, someone feel free to edit for maximum lulz.

  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited May 2014

    I get what CB's saying; saying "something is either canon or not canon" is tantamount to saying, "A boolean is either true or false." By definition, a boolean can't be semi-true.

    Aside from the semantics, as @Myrmidon‌ suggested above, really you guys are making parallel arguments (emphasis mine):

    @CB said:
    It's not canon until it is canon, and then when it's not anymore, it's not anymore. There is no between level.

    is pretty much the same as:

    @Thrax said:
    Everything is considered canon, but could be invalidated at any time by a more authoritative work (a movie).

  • MyrmidonMyrmidon Baron von Puttenham California Icrontian

    @GHoosdum said:
    "A boolean is either true or false."

    Only the sith deal in absolutes.

    TeramonaBobbyDigiGHoosdumBuddyJ
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited May 2014

    @Yoda said:
    Do or do not, there is no try.

    Hmm...

    @Myrmidon said:
    Only the sith deal in absolutes.

    Holy shit. I never suspected!

  • Cliff_ForsterCliff_Forster Baltimore, MD Icrontian

    The EU was never canon according to Lucas. He talks about how the movies and TV shows are his bag, and he is the father so, that is that. Anyone that thinks a story like Dark Empire is canon is fooling themselves just because they liked it more than the Phantom Menace does not make it so. Boba Fett died. The Emperor died... in canon that is. Kyle Katarn isn't canon either. This does not make Dark Forces any less enjoyable.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

    In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:

    “ There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe. ”

    Further, in an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine:

    STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"

    LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

    Lucas' statements in Starlog were commented on in a December 7, 2005 post on the starwars.com forums by Leland Chee, who maintains Lucas Licensing's continuity database:

    CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."[5]

    Another noteworthy exchange between Lucas and an interviewer appeared in the May 2008 edition of Total Film magazine:

    TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"

    LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"

  • CrazyJoeCrazyJoe Winter Springs, FL Icrontian

    So then Disney's stance since taking over Star Wars isn't any different than what Lucas himself felt, so why all the nerd rage?

    Cliff_ForsterJBoogaloo
  • MyrmidonMyrmidon Baron von Puttenham California Icrontian

    @CrazyJoe said:
    So then Disney's stance since taking over Star Wars isn't any different than what Lucas himself felt, so why all the nerd rage?

    Would you be so kind as to point out the nerd rage? All I see is well-tempered disappointment mixed with cautious optimism. And a troll.

    Cliff_ForsterCreeperbane2Teramona
  • CrazyJoeCrazyJoe Winter Springs, FL Icrontian

    I didn't mean this thread, the comment was more in relation to the internet reaction in general.

  • Cliff_ForsterCliff_Forster Baltimore, MD Icrontian

    For the record, not trolling here. This is honestly how I feel. I never troll about Star Wars.

    JBoogaloo
  • SignalSignal Icrontian

    They say they are going to continue filming while he recuperates. I wonder if they will have him walking less on film because of this.

  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian

    @Signal said:
    They say they are going to continue filming while he recuperates. I wonder if they will have him walking less on film because of this.

    Or they'll just rewrite Han to be in a geriatric ward.

  • LincLinc Bard Detroit, MI Icrontian
    edited Jun 2014

    Rian Johnson (Looper) was just announced to write & direct Episodes 8 & 9. His only public statement so far has been this tweet, which I agree is utterly perfect:

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