The Passion of the Christ.

[csimon]

What a enlightening experience it was for me to see this movie. It envoked heavy emotions to my wife and I and quite a few others in the theater.
Just a word of warning ...if you're Christian and you go to see it ...bring a fresh hanky or two.

[fatcat]

What a enlightening experience it was for me to see this movie. It envoked heavy emotions to my wife and I and quite a few others in the theater.
Just a word of warning ...if you're Christian and you go to see it ...bring a fresh hanky or two.

I saw it opening night. I am still overwelmed. Ive never seen the entire theater dead silent for several minutes at the end of a movie before. This movie definetly opens your heart and brings tears to your eyes.

[GnomeWizardd]

just got home and i am still whipping tears

[Thrax]

Interesting to see.

That's all I'll really say.

[Jengo]

im probably gonna go see it soon.

man i bet this is the most popular movie evar! man especially in mexico, they have it all over the news and stuff.

[bothered]

Doesn't it just cover the last 12 hours of his life?

[GnomeWizardd]

yea but its so amazing! they do have flash back of his earlier life and stuff

[GnomeWizardd]

:eek: :eek: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113011,00.html

[a2jfreak]

#1 with a bullet, baby! :rockon:

I still need to go see it.

I still need to see LOTR: ROTK too, but that one will probably wait until it's released on DVD.

:eek: :eek: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113011,00.html

[KingFish]

I'm interested in it but will probably wait until it comes out on dvd. I guess this is one movie I'd not want to use dvd x copy with eh? I've been following the controversy really closely with The O'Reilly Factor and other programs. Shame on some of the media for what they've done.

KingFish

[a2jfreak]

O'Reilly? Good show! I'm a Human and the Communist fan myself--AKA Hannity & Colmes. ;D

[QCH]

I saw Passion last Wednesday... Now, I'm not an overly "Religious" person (I know, I have a crusader as my Avatar") but I am a VERY Spiritual person. I believe and follow most of the Christian doctrine but I follow in my own way and feel very close to Christ and found this movie..... very moving and caused me several days of introspective-ism.

It seems like we need everything sanitized and cleaned before we can "handle" the subject. Being flogged and crucified is NOT pleasant. It's bloody, painful and not a way portrayed in most churches. I am a history buff (minored in it and my Dad majored in it) and I can say that the "church" has Not done the "suffering of Jesus" justice. The drop of blood in Jesus’ forehead, a small cut on his ribs, some marks on his back, and a mean blister like wounds on his hands and feet.... come on... That's not suffering. The Passion of the Christ... That's suffering, that makes me very sure that what Jesus did was truly something that we have to live up to. I thank him for what he did and what I must do to reach heaven.

<font size=1><font color=red>QCH2002 steps away from pulpit </font></font>

[KingFish]

I usually Tivo O'Reilly and when I'm watching him live I catch most of the Hannity & Colmes show. Hannity outclasses Colmes by a mile IMO. But that's :topic: Both of the shows have been covering how the movie and Mel Gibson have been treated throughout the whole rollout. Now that the movie is successful, Hollywood and some of the elite media have turned on a dime and are now in support of the movie after months of taking their jabs and potshots at him and his family. Shame on them. I hate political correctness.

/me steps off soapbox and returns you to your regularly scheduled program


O'Reilly? Good show! I'm a Human and the Communist fan myself--AKA Hannity & Colmes. ;D

[a2jfreak]

QCH2002: Very well said!

KingFish: I missed the show last night and I did want to see it because Friday Alan Colmes said that he was going to see The Passion this weekend. I was hoping to hear what his thoughts were. Also, Colmes is a Jew, so it would be interesting to hear what his perspective is. Did you manage to catch last night's episode?

[KingFish]

I only caught bits and pieces of it last night between trying to feed the wee little one and getting them both to bed. I saw the previews of the episode and it looked to be a good one. Unfortunately I didn't get to spend much time on it last night to remember much of anything.

KingFish

[profdlp]

I haven't seen it yet, but hope to within the next few days.

As far as H&C last night, Alan kept beating the "perpetuating stereotypes about Jews" drum, to the exclusion of any other topic of conversation.

Kind of a shame on his part. When you think about it, the problem that Jesus (Jewish himself!) had with the Jewish elders was that his radical and revolutionary ideas were challenging the conservative Jewish viewpoint.

If I were a liberal, I'd have a field day arguing that point. :vimp:

[gtghm]

Interesting to see.

That's all I'll really say.


LOL..., some how this responce seems typical. :D

[a2jfreak]

Well, once I see the movie I will be able to make an assessment as to how fairly it portrays the Scripture or not.

However, if it does accurately portray the Scripture then I don't see how anyone can say it is anti-semitic because Jesus is a Jew. Christians worship a Jew. Christians are the strongest supporters of Jews and of Israel. How many bumper stickers have you seen that read: "My boss is a Jewish carpenter?"

Also, it has been played out in the Media for months now (and especially the last few weeks) about anti-semitism that might or might not be presented in the film. Christians have gone on the record time and time again saying that the Jewish people are no more guilty than anyone. We all nailed Jesus to the cross. He died for our sins, not just the sins of Jews that happened to live 2,000 years ago. If, after everything that has been said, one walks away from the film feeling like he need to bash Jews then I think that person walked in feeling that way. Though, I guess I need to see it before I can say for certain but from what my Aunt and Uncle have said and many other Christians (and Jews) I just don't think the film could separate itself from Scripture so much that would further any feelings of anti-semitism.

I haven't seen it yet, but hope to within the next few days.

As far as H&C last night, Alan kept beating the "perpetuating stereotypes about Jews" drum, to the exclusion of any other topic of conversation.

Kind of a shame on his part. When you think about it, the problem that Jesus (Jewish himself!) had with the Jewish elders was that his radical and revolutionary ideas were challenging the conservative Jewish viewpoint.

If I were a liberal, I'd have a field day arguing that point. :vimp:

[-tk]

well, I havent seen it yet, but I bet I can tell you how it ends......

[a2jfreak]

:)

I was talking to my Aunt a couple of days ago when she was telling me about the movie. I said, "Should I read the book first?" :D

[QCH]

From the movie, I saw three groups in equal fault for the treatment of Jesus...
Jews, Roman authorities, and Jesus' followers.
-The Jews (really the rabbi’s) wanted him crucified for his radical teachings.
-The Roman Authorities didn't want a riot and even though Pilate knows that Jesus is innocent. Pilate tries to get someone else to take the heat, but in the end, Pilate is the one that gives in. His solders beat him and disobey Pilate's directives...
-Jesus' followers had several chances to help Jesus out...

I thought no worse of the Jews than of anyone else... besides, those times are vastly different than today.

[profdlp]

...However, if it does accurately portray the Scripture then I don't see how anyone can say it is anti-semitic...
I am in full agreement with your entire post. I was just reporting what Alan Colmes was saying last night.

Leaving theology aside and examining this from a purely historical point of view, I don't see why anyone should be surprised that the Jewish elders come off badly in this movie, if for no other reason than they are the agonist to the protagonist (Jesus).

Could you make Schindler's List without casting some Germans in a bad light? Would Roots have meant anything if the evils of slavery were glossed over? If you go back far enough you will surely find examples where every culture has had its dark moments. You can't rewrite history to avoid stepping on some toes today.

[Thrax]

LOL..., some how this responce seems typical. :D

I could say a hell of a lot more and piss everyone in this thread off; but I have more tact than that, and the capacity to exercise it.

[a2jfreak]

Exactly, Professor!

[a2jfreak]

If something about the film bothered you, voice it. If you feel this might not be the appropriate forum I am sure some would be willing to discuss it further on KBJ.

I could say a hell of a lot more and piss everyone in this thread off; but I have more tact than that, and the capacity to exercise it.

[profdlp]

If something about the film bothered you, voice it. If you feel this might not be the appropriate forum I am sure some would be willing to discuss it further on KBJ.
Second the motion.

Besides, your "non-comment" is more irritating than anything you might have to say. :vimp:

...and, I respect and value your opinions... :wave:

[Thrax]

:wave:

[csimon]

:)

I was talking to my Aunt a couple of days ago when she was telling me about the movie. I said, "Should I read the book first?" :D
Sure why not ..."The Passion" (http://www.passion-movie.org/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PM&Product_Code=PBKST1).

[csimon]

This movie is as accurate as it needs to be.

[fudgam]

I saw Passion last Wednesday... Now, I'm not an overly "Religious" person (I know, I have a crusader as my Avatar") but I am a VERY Spiritual person. I believe and follow most of the Christian doctrine but I follow in my own way and feel very close to Christ and found this movie..... very moving and caused me several days of introspective-ism.

It seems like we need everything sanitized and cleaned before we can "handle" the subject. Being flogged and crucified is NOT pleasant. It's bloody, painful and not a way portrayed in most churches. I am a history buff (minored in it and my Dad majored in it) and I can say that the "church" has Not done the "suffering of Jesus" justice. The drop of blood in Jesus’ forehead, a small cut on his ribs, some marks on his back, and a mean blister like wounds on his hands and feet.... come on... That's not suffering. The Passion of the Christ... That's suffering, that makes me very sure that what Jesus did was truly something that we have to live up to. I thank him for what he did and what I must do to reach heaven.

<font size=1><font color=red>QCH2002 steps away from pulpit </font></font>

I think I am personally alot like QCH2002 when it comes to religion and spirituality.
I saw the movie 2nd or 3rd day it was out....I think. Very moving, and Ill be honest.....I got a lump in my throat in certain parts. Also, I feel that even if this wasnt about something that is very sacred to many people, it would still be a very good movie. As a christian I see the last 12 hours of Christs life(in a few hours). And as a person going to the movies, I see a story about a man who preached love and forgiveness, and was betrayed by many people he trusted.

I saw it opening night. I am still overwelmed. Ive never seen the entire theater dead silent for several minutes at the end of a movie before. This movie definetly opens your heart and brings tears to your eyes.

Same here. During the quiet moments of the movie, I could hear people 2 rows behind me breathing....seriously. Could have heard a pin drop.

[kanezfan]

I'd like to say something, only because I'm Jewish. Now I saw the movie Saturday night. It was a very good movie. A very, very good movie. However, here's what bothers me. The majority of Jews in this movie are portrayed as sheep-like buffoons who follow their leader's word like idiots. The Rabbis especially, are portrayed as blood thirsty savages bent on Jesus's death. Pontius Pilate is portrayed as nice guy, when from all accounts that I've ever read of the guy, he was a sick freak. The jewish children who chase Judas out of the city, why are they portrayed as devils? I've never read the new testament so one of you that is familiar with it, please let me know if that is how it is written in.

The rabbis are portrayed as heartless and cruel. I'm not going to act like an idiot and say that there's no such thing as a mean rabbi, but I think Gibson went a little overboard with it, making them look like the worst of the worst people. It comes down to politics really, and I think any leader, being power hungry enough, will do whatecver it takes to hold on to power. But that is just not the Jewish way. I just can't accept that they would have been that way, that cruel and evil.

Another thing, King Herrod. I've read some accounts that say he was not even alive at the time this happened. also, i've read many differing viewpoints on exactly how he was crucified, with a lot of evidence pointing to no nails being used at all. And why would Pontius Pilate ask the Jews about anything? That would be like Hitler asking a Jew what to do in WWII. It doens't make sense that the Romans would heed the Jews' advice.

I'm not trying to change your minds about your religion here. I'm just worried about a new wave of anti-semitism.

[GnomeWizardd]

the Children are images portrayed by satan to judas to drive him mad.



Luke 22:2-3
3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve
NIV

Matt 27:5

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
NIV



Herod was alive

Luke 23:13-16

13 Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, 14 and said to them, "You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. 15 Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death. 16 Therefore, I will punish him and then release him."
NIV

Nails

John 20:24-25

24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"

But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
NIV

and the Punishment givin to Jesus BY the crowd of Jews and carried out by the ROMANS

Luke 23:13-25

13 Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, 14 and said to them, "You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. 15 Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death. 16 Therefore, I will punish him and then release him."

18 With one voice they cried out, "Away with this man! Release Barabbas to us!" 19(Barabbas had been thrown into prison for an insurrection in the city, and for murder.)

20 Wanting to release Jesus, Pilate appealed to them again. 21 But they kept shouting, "Crucify him! Crucify him!"

22 For the third time he spoke to them: "Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him."

23 But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed. 24 So Pilate decided to grant their demand. 25 He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, the one they asked for, and surrendered Jesus to their will.
NIV



Its not a new wave of anti-whatever you call it I saw it I didn't think that it portrayed the jews any more guilty than the romans since it was the romans who tortured him and allowed it to happen Its funny that now that the story of Jesus is more public that people are scared that a new wave of anti-whater is going to start! This has been around for what 2000 years? its nothing new

Can I answer anymore questions sir?

[kanezfan]

anti-semitism, it's hatred of jews.

[GnomeWizardd]

but its not anti-semitism The romans are just as guilty as the Jews and so is everyone else that allowed it to happen.

I am just as guilty as the people who put those nails through his hands ( I am not going into detail cause it would end up being preaching and I dont want to preach at oyu I just want to help explain )

I dont understand everytime something that points even in the slightest direction of a group of people everyone goes on defense!

I feel if a person comes out of that movie Hating the jews or the romans or some group or person they hated them going into the movie

[fudgam]

I see what Kanezfan is saying. Yea it sucks that the Jews(I found the rabbis to be more like this) were portrayed that way. But if they were not, then the transition from story to big screen would not be accurate. Everybody hates it when books are made into movies that leave out critical parts of the plot. How many times have you heard "The book was much better"? lol

[csimon]

I'm not taking up for the high priests or anything but I assume they acted the way they did because they actually thought that Christ was blasphemous to God. They simply didn't believe him ...and if they didn't believe him how should we expect the jews who followed them to believe him?

Jesus wasn't the only man in that time to portray himself as God to the people ...there was also Simon Magus who had probably as many followers and maybe others.

[QCH]

In the movie... Several Rabbi's do speak up and voice their distaste at the plite of Jesus.

Greatest part of the movie... Herad singing "So.... you are the Christ, the great Jesus Christ. Show to that your divine, change my water into wine. That's all you need do and I'll see its all true, come on King of the Jews." Sorry... Jesus Christ Superstar flash back....

[GnomeWizardd]

serveral rabbi's speak up when they arrest him and say its wrong to have done this. Only part of the rabbi's and part of the jews wanted him dead. You saw during hte arrest and in the temple some rabbi's were in digust and had to be kicked out and during the cross carring there were many people who were jewish who wanted this to stop. So its just like every culture you have some good and some bad

Muslims got the decent ones who jsut want to worship Alah and then you have the Radicle ones who want everyone who isnt a muslim dead!

Christians Got hte good ones who want to please God then you have the stupid ones who do things like the crusades and the stupid priest who molest little boys.


The world is a sick sick place and every religion and every culture has thier good and bad points in history and this was a bad point in time for everyperson alive

[kanezfan]

yeah herod was pretty much portrayed as a flaming homo. l have to explain to you guys why we don't believe jesus is not the messiah. we believe that when the messiah comes, we will have peace on earth and all the dead people will come back and everytone will be happy. you guys believe jesus is the messiah and you're just waiting for him to come back right? so it comes down to how you interpret things i guess. if the messiah showed up tomorrow, we jews would be happy, while you guys would probably say it's jesus that just came back. but in the end if the messiah appeared tomorrow, we'd all (according to our bible) be happy and there would be peace on earth. so it would be all good for everyone, so i say in the meantime, let's just be happy and be good to each other and let things play out the way they will, because i believe that no matter who's right or wrong, our God (since he is the same God for both jews and christians, muslims too btw) will take care of us all and love us all no matter what. are you feeling my vibe people? let's just spread the love lol.

[GnomeWizardd]

Revelation my dear Friend. next time I come down to visit Ill take you to the China Palm and we will have a civil talk !

Christians Already believe Jesus has risen from the dead ( as seen at the end of the movie ) and is at the right hand of God the Father. When Jesus comes back we believe there will be a trumpet all the world will hear and he will descend from the clouds and all the believe in him and have accepted him will be caught up with him and taken to heaven.

The time will come when The messiah will return in either religion, Christians believe he has already comeand he was Jesus Christ Son of God and gave promise to return and when he does the end times ( the tribulation ) will begin. One world government and all the stuff will sstart to take form. After the tribulation there will be peace over all the world and much rejoicing in heaven for satan will have been cast into the lake of fire and victory is Gods.

I tell you do not and i repeat do not read revelation without reading Matthew Mark Luke and John tho. you must understand the concept of Jesus and the promises BEFORE you read Revelation

[Clutch]

*Puts on flame suit*

I saw the movie Sunday night. I will admit though, it did make my eyes water up at some points. It was a very good movie no doubt. But still to this day, I don't believe in a higher power myself, but that is just me.

[GnomeWizardd]

No Flame suit needed my man! Everyone here is entitled to have thier own beliefs! I know Kanez (Jon) personally ( not in a gay way ) and He knows me ( not in a gay way LOL ) We are just chatting actualy everytime ive seen Kanez we get off on a subject i believe the first time was Abortion where we both semi agreed on stuff Dont remember the last time tho! actually while we were both typing in this thread we were talking on AOL about cases! lol

[Thrax]

God just wants to run the U.N. security council.

[GnomeWizardd]

Bah the UN is useless!

[profdlp]

God just wants to run the U.N. security council.
If so, He's certainly lowered his ambitions over the years. :cool:

[Thrax]

Hey. That new world government + world peace thing got me thinking!

[profdlp]

Have you spoken to Dennis Kucinich about that? :buck:

[fudgam]

Clutch, that was wondefully said. No flame at all. You disagreed and left it at that. I think your post was simply great.

[Thrax]

Kucinich is a twit.

[ginipig]

Provocative movie, to say the least.

I'm as stubborn as they come, but I'm not ignorant. If I were an Atheist/Agnostic, I'd know better then to watch a highly controversial movie, to formulate arguments outlining the movies weaknesses for forum-boards. There are a plethora of reasons as to why one would go and watch the movie, but analytical-value simply isn't one of them.

If this movie served any anti-semitic purpose, it would've been scrapped @ script level. Hollywood simply wouldn't allow it - both ethically, or economically. If I remember correctly, both religions reinforce the "love thy neighbor" rule, and (as mentioned in an earlier post,) unless you came in with a hidden agenda, chances are that you won't leave the complex with killer-intent.

It was a great story; well choreographed and presented. I personally loved the movie, despite its litigious nature. If you sat through the entire movie contemplating your atheist/agnostic livelihood, thereby contrasting the message conveyed with beliefs of your own, you wasted an otherwise perfect movie ticket. If you're looking for an unprecedented counter-argument to [insert-deity-here] through this movie, please gtfo of the theatre. Who knows, your sour mood could be contagious. :O

[FormFactor]

*Puts on flame suit*

I saw the movie Sunday night. I will admit though, it did make my eyes water up at some points. It was a very good movie no doubt. But still to this day, I don't believe in a higher power myself, but that is just me.

I mostly agree with him. I definately believe in a higher power. But I really dont think a lot of the bible or new testimant was really supposed to be taken literally. I mean there are so many off the wall things in the bible that could have been mere metaphores. And who knows how many times its been translated to different languages, and what was lost in translation.

I will however say after reading the strong opinions in this thread i am definatly going to see this flick!

[panzerkw]

Provocative movie, to say the least.
Hollywood simply wouldn't allow it - both ethically, or economically.

Hollywood didn't allow it...no major production studio would have gotten anywhere near this movie.

Mel Gibson had to get an independent distributor (newmarket films, I hate their website) to get the movie out to the theaters.

[GnomeWizardd]

FormFactor The King james Version was translated from the original scrolls a long time ago. The new international Version is a todays english version replacing the thee's and tho's

[panzerkw]

FormFactor The King james Version was translated from the original scrolls a long time ago. The new international Version is a todays english version replacing the thee's and tho's

The New International Version is NOT a revision of King James.

It is an entirely new translation of the Bible, with some significant (in the eyes of some churches) changes in context versus King James.

Some churches have dispensed with their NIV Bibles and returned to the Authorized King James version (1611 edition) because they find the context changes intolerable.

Some churches use the American Standard Version, which is a revision of the English Revised Version, which itself is a revision of King James.

Other churches use the Revised Standard Edition.

The Catholic Church uses the New American Bible, which is a new translation.

So many bibles that DO NOT say the same thing....can make things very difficult for people of different denominations to speak about religious subjects.

The King James version (1611) has proven to be the most durable, and perhaps the most superior of them all in terms of its language. It was written by a bunch of geniuses after all.

[csimon]

How do the "other denominations" recognize Veronica and the veil(sp?)? Is that included in any bible NT?
If I refer to the sects of Christianity as Fundamentalists is that offensive or accetable?
Just curious ...I don't want to offend anyone and I'm just looking for a way to refer to non-catholic christians. I know that it's not wise to generalize.

[panzerkw]

I'm just looking for a way to refer to non-catholic christians.

Protestants.

I'm unfamiliar with Veronica and her veil. I haven't seen the movie yet.

Since Mel Gibson is a Catholic, he probably used elements of King James and the New American Bible in his interpretation, but the movie is also very much his own personal vision of how the Passion took place.

So it would probably include various things that are not literally taken from the Bible in order to fulfill that vision.

[csimon]

"In several regions of Christendom there is honored under this name a pious matron of Jerusalem who, during the Passion of Christ, as one of the holy women who accompanied Him to Calvary, offered Him a towel on which he left the imprint of His face. She went to Rome, bringing with her this image of Christ, which was long exposed to public veneration."
At the St. Peters in the vatican there are two niches to either side of the altar ...to the right is the statue of St. Helen and to the left St. Veronica. As Veronica displayed the towel or veil of his image ...Helen displayed the cross of the crucifixion. The veil is still preserved at St. Peters.
When you see the movie watch the veil closely after he wipes his face ...she holds it in a way that the image of his face is displayed for quite a few times and quite a few moments ...but you have to pay attention to that detail to even notice.

[kanezfan]

i was paying attention cause I wanted to see if that was where they were going with it. I know nothing about this, so tell me, is this the fabled shroud of turin?

[csimon]

i was paying attention cause I wanted to see if that was where they were going with it. I know nothing about this, so tell me, is this the fabled shroud of turin?Oh no ...the shroud is the burial cloth which would have made an image of his entire body. At the end when the stone rolls away from the tomb and you see a cloth blowing and sinking and then you see him naked (sorta) with the hole in his hand walking out of the tomb ...the cloth on that rock was the shroud. The original shroud would be a manifesto of dna.

[kanezfan]

the one the girl gave him then? Has it ever been found? How would you guys feel about cloning him if there was enough DNA on that towel?

[ginipig]

the one the girl gave him then? Has it ever been found? How would you guys feel about cloning him if there was enough DNA on that towel?

Wow kanez. Just.. wow..

I'm not trying to change your minds about your religion here. I'm just worried about a new wave of anti-semitism.

..then again, I see where you're coming from.

[csimon]

No ...you mean the girl that brought him the cup to drink and the cloth? The cloth was her veil and she wiped his face with it ...thus leaving only the impression of his face. The shroud is different ...it covered his entire body ...maybe some of the cloth that was given to Mary by Pilates wife was used idunno.
No need to clone him really ...that would renounce all we believe about his resurrection and return.
You see ...in the movie when he states that he would destroy the temple and rebuild it 3 days later ...and then they challenge him about that? Well ...He died and three days later he rose from the dead. It's way deeper than that but that's the basic point.
Anyway ...he ascended into heaven body and soul and will return.
I think that we have a commonality here where jews and christians may agree that he is coming ...just that christians believe it is a second coming ...but I supposed we believe the outcome will be the same ...at least I hope we do ...that would be cool.

It would be un-christian to be anti-semitic ...remember what he said about loving only those who love you? What's the point?

[kanezfan]

ginipig, i don't understand the wow comment? did i offend you asking about cloning jesus? if so i didn't mean to.


csimon, you hit it on the head there i think. we (jews) believe the messiah hasn't come to earth yet. you guys (christians) are waiting for him to come back again. explain something to me. the torah (jewish bible) is known as the old testament correct? how come christians don't follow its rules, like all the kosher laws and religious holidays? or is that stuff left out of it? is leviticus in the old testament or not? that's where all the kosher laws are. just curious.

[csimon]

No Leviticus is there for sure.
As for why we don't practice the kosher laws I'll have to look that one up.
But as I understand ...not all jews follow the kosher laws either or do they?
Let me see if I can find an explanation on that.

[kanezfan]

oh no a lot of us don't for the most part, but it's more of a case of "don't feel like it." For instance, I still do not eat shellfish or pork. I do eat beef, but I don't eat kosher beef. I'll eat cheeseburgers, but under kosher laws, you are not to eat dairy and meat together. I mean kosher is definitely a part of being jewish, but I sometimes don't feel like putting up with temptation ;D

[csimon]

Hm ...well I do recall that question being asked to a catholic priest in religion class once but I don't recall the answer.
I don't think I would resist either anyway!!!

[-tk]

i thought this was supposed to be a thread about the movie.....

[a2jfreak]

Exactly.

Plus, the Jews are God's chosen and Christians know this. I just don't see how people can say Christians would be anti-semitic or promote anti-semitism. The Jews have no stronger ally than Christians, even though I have seen some Jews that seem to resent Christians.

It would be un-christian to be anti-semitic ...remember what he said about loving only those who love you? What's the point?

[Justin]

It would seem to me that there is a little bit of oversensitivity to this anti-semitisim thing. I myself am not jewish but I have family that is. I know from experience that some of the stereotypes are true(those in my family) but generally they are incorrect. I do not however know of any instance where they have been discriminated against or hated on for being Jewish. There are periods in our country's history (america) where there was a dislike for almost every race and nationality that migrated here. Muslim anti-semitism comes from the same teachings that say the land Israel is located on belongs to the jewish people. It all starts with Abraham I guess. Tha is another thing, how can three major religeons that have issues with each other come from one potentially fictional figure? I have not seen this movie yet and I may not as I feel that the bible is mostly just a story that puts forth general ideas that were incepted into law to govern the people by fear. In those times, this was a necessity, anymore, religeon is more of a social event for people and a belief structure is made out of it. I am not trying to be abrasive here but I have a hard time believing in something intangable. There is no doubt a force guiding my life and I admit I have prayed before as I was brought up in America, even the money says in God we trust. I tend to blur the lines when it comes to religeous dogma and it seems to me that the world would not have nearly as many woes if everybody else would do the same. WWII ( and it's games) gone, middle east crisis, gone, crusades, gone, think of how the world could/would be differrent if everybody could stop basing their lives and ideals around a story. Again, I am not trying to disparage anyones beliefs here but I just want to throw my opinion in the ring. Imagine all the people, living together as one...

[csimon]

i thought this was supposed to be a thread about the movie..... :topic: Sorry for swaying from the topic but I'd be willing to help kanez understand anything about catholicism (christianity) that I possibly could ...he's an aight fella no matter what his friends say! :nudge: Sorry about the off topic but I'd do it again maybe in another thread.:thumbsup:

The movie was well done and I'm glad it was made and I'm glad I got to see it.

[profdlp]

...the torah (jewish bible) is known as the old testament correct? how come christians don't follow its rules, like all the kosher laws and religious holidays? or is that stuff left out of it? is leviticus in the old testament or not? that's where all the kosher laws are. just curious.
Yes, Leviticus is the 3rd book of the Old Testament.

Your question about kosher laws is a good one. One of the reasons the Jewish elders were not too keen on Jesus' teachings was that he was a revolutionary. Not just in the sense of being full of new ideas, but also as wanting to abandon the old way of doing things. The reason the Christian bible is divided into Old and New Testaments is that it defines the difference between the "old" law and the "new" law. All of the rules that went before were replaced by the new teachings of Christ. You could define a "Christian" as being someone who has decided to follow the "new" rules.

Most US law is based on English Common Law, with some notable differences. Christian rules have their roots in Kosher law, but the coming of Christ changed a lot of the old rules. One obvious difference is that due to the crucifixion we do not need to make any sort of blood sacrifice to God (killing a goat, or whatever), Jesus covered it for us.

Jesus' ideas were about as popular with the established Jewish religious and political leaders of the day as Patrick Henry's were with King George III during the American Revolution, for many of the same reasons.

[panzerkw]

In the Acts of the Apostles, the disciples of Jesus went and preached about the "Good News" to the jews around Palestine. But they were persecuted and inprisoned. Finally one of the Jewish high preists (Anaphias was it) said that if this movement was of God, nothing could be done to stop it, but if it were not of God, then the movement would die out on its own.

So the official persecution stopped, and the disciples continued to preach around Palestine, but the Jews were still pretty hostile to them.

Then came Paul, and he left Palestine to preach about Jesus to Diaspora Jews (Jews outside of Palestine). After meeting with resistance there, Paul decided to try preaching to the Gentiles, and this was pretty successful. A big controversy then came as to whether the Gentiles would have to be held to the Judaic law (circumcision, kosher diet, etc). It was decided that the Gentiles would not have to be, and Paul thereafter sought to preach only among the Gentiles.

Also, in the Last Supper, Jesus created a "new" convenant, centered around the eucharist, which the early christians, and christians now, celebrate as the central sacrament of their worship. The old rituals were discarded as being unnecessary for salvation, since Jesus (not circumcision or a kosher diet, or the other Deuteronomic laws) provided the means for salvation.

Another big event was the Jewish Revolt of AD 70, which Rome supressed mercilessly. This weakened the power of a lot of Jews in the region (some felt that God has abandoned them), and allowed Christianity to become more successful in the wake of it.

Speaking in practical terms, it was a prudent choice not to hold the Gentiles to the judaic law, because it would have been much more difficult to convert people to the new relgion if they would have had to subscribe to the judiac laws and customs. New christians were able to keep their own customs and laws but worship in one way centered around the eucharist.

But as time went on, obviously people get new ideas, new theologies, etc, and there you have the splitting of different sects from the Catholic Church, eventually culminating in the Reformation

[fudgam]

First off, I would like to thank any non-christians for not coming in and being hostile. If anyone disagreed, it was very respectful, and usually had a "this is just my opinion". Thanks :cheers:

Anywho, when I was reading a previous post, curcumcision came up. Got me thinking, was Jesus cicumcised? Ive never thought of that before.

[panzerkw]

Jesus was born and raised a Jew, so he was circumcised soon after birth as all jewish infants were at the time

[QCH]

!!! EVERYONE !!!

This thread is why Short-Media is a great site... Even a hot topic such as Religion and no flame wars. Do you realize that most sites can't even get by a week without a flame war over really stupid stuff. Their servers would probably catch fire if they had this topic discussed...

<font size=5> GREAT JOB </font>

[fudgam]

It would seem to me that there is a little bit of oversensitivity to this anti-semitisim thing. I myself am not jewish but I have family that is. I know from experience that some of the stereotypes are true(those in my family) but generally they are incorrect. I do not however know of any instance where they have been discriminated against or hated on for being Jewish. There are periods in our country's history (america) where there was a dislike for almost every race and nationality that migrated here. Muslim anti-semitism comes from the same teachings that say the land Israel is located on belongs to the jewish people. It all starts with Abraham I guess. Tha is another thing, how can three major religeons that have issues with each other come from one potentially fictional figure? I have not seen this movie yet and I may not as I feel that the bible is mostly just a story that puts forth general ideas that were incepted into law to govern the people by fear. In those times, this was a necessity, anymore, religeon is more of a social event for people and a belief structure is made out of it. I am not trying to be abrasive here but I have a hard time believing in something intangable. There is no doubt a force guiding my life and I admit I have prayed before as I was brought up in America, even the money says in God we trust. I tend to blur the lines when it comes to religeous dogma and it seems to me that the world would not have nearly as many woes if everybody else would do the same. WWII ( and it's games) gone, middle east crisis, gone, crusades, gone, think of how the world could/would be differrent if everybody could stop basing their lives and ideals around a story. Again, I am not trying to disparage anyones beliefs here but I just want to throw my opinion in the ring. Imagine all the people, living together as one...

I completly understand what you mean. But, that was not the intent of Christ. He preached forgiveness and loving your enemy. The wars, anti-semitism, crusades....those are people gone bad(in relation to what Christianity says). See what I mean? People are responsible for those things, not necessarily the religion itsself.
And it could be from christians not practicing what they preach. The jewish community and eating kosher came up earlier. Jews should(according to the Torah), eat kosher, but apparently some dont. We could probably apply that to what you were saying. Christians not following everything in their religion.