-forcesse/-advemthods no longer necessary.

[csimon]

Today after looking over a thread someone I made the observation that with core_78 v1.64 -forcesse was no longer necessary to get the sse boost for athlons. I tested the observation myself with core_78 v1.62 and guess what?
sse boost ok!

Arguments: -service

[14:41:50] - Ask before connecting: No
[14:41:50] - User name: csimon (Team 93)
[14:41:50] - User ID = 6C6F721974B9C5E6
[14:41:50] - Machine ID: 1
[14:41:50]
[14:41:50] Loaded queue successfully.
[14:41:50] + Benchmarking ...
[14:41:52]
[14:41:52] + Processing work unit
[14:41:52] Core required: FahCore_78.exe
[14:41:52] Core found.
[14:41:52] Working on Unit 00 [May 8 14:41:52]
[14:41:52] + Working ...
[14:41:53]
[14:41:53] *------------------------------*
[14:41:53] Folding@home Gromacs Core
[14:41:53] Version 1.62 (April 2, 2004)
[14:41:53]
[14:41:53] Preparing to commence simulation
[14:41:53] - Looking at optimizations...
[14:41:53] - Files status OK
[14:41:53] - Expanded 510733 -> 2524933 (decompressed 494.3 percent)
[14:41:53]
[14:41:53] Project: 910 (Run 65, Clone 90, Gen 27)
[14:41:53]
[14:41:53] Assembly optimizations on if available.
[14:41:53] Entering M.D.
[14:42:13] (Starting from checkpoint)
[14:42:13] Protein: p910_vill_str0_rf
[14:42:13]
[14:42:13] Writing local files
[14:42:16] Completed 240000 out of 250000 steps (96)
[14:42:16] Extra SSE boost OK.
[14:46:40] Writing local files
[14:46:40] Completed 242500 out of 250000 steps (97)
[14:51:00] Writing local files

this is on the sig system.

since the new point scheme -advmethods is also no longer necessary.

[KingFish]

did you mean to publish that second flag?
I have vers 1.64. What is the difference between that and the vers you have here (1.62)?

KingFish

[csimon]

did you mean to publish that second flag?
I have vers 1.64. What is the difference between that and the vers you have here (1.62)?

KingFish
whew ...that'll be our little secret!!! :wink:

Science-wise, 1.64 includes support for a new implicit solvent model (see projects 923-4). Besides this, it supports 735's results, which 1.62 didn't.
It's now the standard download, not just beta. Guha

[KingFish]

/me snickers to himself and ponders what to do with the newfound knowledge

[csimon]

* KingFish snickers to himself and ponders what to do with the newfound knowledgethanks for catching that and pointing it out KF ...I could get in trouble if I leaked it ...right marc? ;D j/k

Anyway ...if you want to do beta all you need to do is drop a PM to one of the admins at the community and read and follow the rules/guidelines and you're in!!! Rule number one ...don't reveal teh knowlege! LOL

Anyway ...folding beta wu's means reporting any issues you may have with the wu's at -verbosity 9 I think and then they mostly do the troubleshooting from there!

Some risk involved but hey ...we live in louisiana so that's on par!

[Thrax]

I use

-forcesse -service -forceasm

Is this ok?

[csimon]

I use

-forcesse -service -forceasm

Is this ok?
sure it's ok ...are you using FAH4Console.exe?

I may have been a little premature about -forcesse ...I just noticed that with v1.64 I started a new wu and it said neither sse boost or 3dnow so I'm thinking maybe -forcesse is still necessary to fold using sse with an athlon.

[Thrax]

Yeah, FAH4Console.

Will it be faster by adding or removing any flags?

[MrBill]

Yeah, FAH4Console.

Will it be faster by adding or removing any flags?
That depends on who you ask. You should not need forcesse and forceasm.

I use -advmethods -forcesse

[Leonardo]

OK, this is like all the premature health "research" reports that the idiotic press loves for soundbites: oat bran - great, no - just good, ah nevermind; cholesteral - LDL, XYZ, ABC - good, bad, not so bad; coffee - good, bad, good, who knows....and so on.

This is my new flag for Athlons: -turnonwhateverthehellworksbestdamnit

[MrBill]

This is my new flag for Athlons: -turnonwhateverthehellworksbestdamnit
Doesn't work on mine. Said invalid argument or something like that. ;) :D ;D



p.s. i didn't really try it

[Leonardo]

-turnonwhateverthehellworksbestdamnit
-screwthe'invalidargument'crap
-pretendthiscpuis6000mhz
-deathtoseti
-ignoremyoverthetopoverclocking
-thisuserisalwaysright
-givememorefriggingdoublegromacsNOW

[Dragstk]

-turnonwhateverthehellworksbestdamnit
-screwthe'invalidargument'crap
-pretendthiscpuis6000mhz
-deathtoseti
-ignoremyoverthetopoverclocking
-thisuserisalwaysright
-givememorefriggingdoublegromacsNOW

I'm not sure I can fit that all in the little Target box :scratch: ;D ;D

[EyesOnly]

Would it work on P2:s? ;D :eek2: :D

[Thrax]

-pretendthiscpuis6000mhz

[TheGr81]

-turnonwhateverthehellworksbestdamnit
-screwthe'invalidargument'crap
-pretendthiscpuis6000mhz
-deathtoseti
-ignoremyoverthetopoverclocking
-thisuserisalwaysright
-givememorefriggingdoublegromacsNOW
It'd be great if all that worked! :rant: Especially the Double Gromacs one :thumbsup:

Which arguments help a P4's production? (Besides -advmethods and -forcesse) Anything I'm missing? I don't use -service 'cause the only user acct on this machine is my own, so there's no need right?

[csimon]

It'd be great if all that worked! :rant: Especially the Double Gromacs one :thumbsup:

Which arguments help a P4's production? (Besides -advmethods and -forcesse) Anything I'm missing? I don't use -service 'cause the only user acct on this machine is my own, so there's no need right?
don't use any at all.

[TheGr81]

:eek2: :confused2 :scratch:

Ok, now I'm confused. A P4's point production is greater with gromacs than with tinkers right? That's why I use -advmethods, it tends to give out more gromacs and dgromacs WU's. And while I'm still not sure about -forcesse, some people have experienced greater production with the tag than without it. (But I haven't really given it enough attention to notice it myself.) I know I need -local, but that's different.

And one more thing...

Where the heck did you get all those folding computers!? :rant:

[csimon]

:eek2: :confused2 :scratch:

Ok, now I'm confused. A P4's point production is greater with gromacs than with tinkers right? That's why I use -advmethods, it tends to give out more gromacs and dgromacs WU's. And while I'm still not sure about -forcesse, some people have experienced greater production with the tag than without it. (But I haven't really given it enough attention to notice it myself.) I know I need -local, but that's different.

And one more thing...

Where the heck did you get all those folding computers!? :rant:

It's all relative on a P4 ...points are assigned from a P4 so whatever you get it's relative. So at this point that flag should give you no advantage or disadvantage.

[KingFish]

Hey csimon
I won't leak the info any further. I don't wish to be on the beta team at this point because I don't have the time necessary to report my findings and such. I have 1.64 gromacs core and it is turning my optimizations on as necessary with my athlons cpu's. The only flag I have with my athlons is -verbosity 9 and they are all chugging along with sse (as verified in the log files) just fine. I have no idea why others wouldn't have the optimizations working without the -forcesse flag.

KingFish

[csimon]

Hey csimon
I won't leak the info any further. I don't wish to be on the beta team at this point because I don't have the time necessary to report my findings and such. I have 1.64 gromacs core and it is turning my optimizations on as necessary with my athlons cpu's. The only flag I have with my athlons is -verbosity 9 and they are all chugging along with sse (as verified in the log files) just fine. I have no idea why others wouldn't have the optimizations working without the -forcesse flag.

KingFish

Ok ...The next time you get gromacs make sure that it uses SSE automatically. :thumbsup:

[KingFish]

I've already watched a few cycles and it is using them automatically. All appears well.

KingFish

[csimon]

I've already watched a few cycles and it is using them automatically. All appears well.

KingFish
I'll give this one another shot and see what happens also ..thanks!

[Leonardo]

Which arguments help a P4's production? It may not make any difference, but I would defintely add -advmethods for a P4. You really want to snag Gromacs as often as possible.

[csimon]

I've already watched a few cycles and it is using them automatically. All appears well.

KingFish
Even if you stop the client and restart you still get SSE boost ok!?
I'm just not seeing it ...maybe I'm nervous for nothing idunno.

[fatcat]

do ya get the new cores when u get a WU that needs them?...I'm still using 1.56.

[csimon]

do ya get the new cores when u get a WU that needs them?...I'm still using 1.56.yes

[mmonnin]

You can delete the core if you want to try this. Best idea is to wait til a WU is finished as always.

This is interesting news. I hadnt heard of this yet.

Hmm yes that secret better stay a secret.

[TheGr81]

Aw, you guys suck! I dunno what you're talkin' about! :rant:

lol

[mmonnin]

The beta team is open to anyone who wants to help test the clients and work units.

[KingFish]

Even if you stop the client and restart you still get SSE boost ok!?
I'm just not seeing it ...maybe I'm nervous for nothing idunno.

Yessir, when I stop for a reboot all my nodes using athlon xp's are automatically detecting sse optimizations and utilizing them all on their own without any -forcesse flags. Hmmm, I wonder what this other flag does? hehe

KingFish

[csimon]

Yessir, when I stop for a reboot all my nodes using athlon xp's are automatically detecting sse optimizations and utilizing them all on their own without any -forcesse flags. Hmmm, I wonder what this other flag does? hehe

KingFish
Well this much I can say for sure ...that flag will get you the very most unstable WU's if they are indeed unstable ...that's about it.
Even -advmethods still gets unstable WU's ...more unstable than no flags at all anyway.
You can really only count on no flags to get the most stable of WU's at this point.

[KingFish]

Unstable WU's are the last thing I need at this point. Now that the heat wave has begun my farm nodes are having probs. This hasn't been a very good week for the KingFish Farm. I've had two nodes spitting back special_exit and early_unit_end this week. No mo' overclocking for most of my nodes for a while now. Production has been down for the past week or so but hopefully I'll have a rebound now that I've fixed some of those probs. The only flags I'm using is -service when applicable and -verbosity 9 and am plugging along quite well with them. I wouldn't want that extra headache at this point in time.

KingFish

[csimon]

Unstable WU's are the last thing I need at this point. Now that the heat wave has begun my farm nodes are having probs. This hasn't been a very good week for the KingFish Farm. I've had two nodes spitting back special_exit and early_unit_end this week. No mo' overclocking for most of my nodes for a while now. Production has been down for the past week or so but hopefully I'll have a rebound now that I've fixed some of those probs. The only flags I'm using is -service when applicable and -verbosity 9 and am plugging along quite well with them. I wouldn't want that extra headache at this point in time.

KingFish
I agree ...the heat is effecting me as well at home as you might have figured. The farm is ok as long as the A/C doesn't go down ...they don't overclock anyway!!! :thumbsup: The best production you can afford is the most stable I find.

[KingFish]

Agreed csimon. I'm in the process of clocking the nodes back down to stock speeds and returning the voltages to stock as well. This one room may as well be called the boiler room. I had to break down and buy a window unit for this room to bring it to comfortable temps. With this many nodes I doubt I'll mess with OC'ing again as stability is better for managing the farm rather than having to resolve instability issues all the time while those aussies bogard all the production ranks ahead of me.

KingFish

[Thrax]

I usually bring my rigs down about 200MHz in the summer. It sucks.

[csimon]

just a tad over stock voltage ...tomorrow morning before I leave for school I'll drop the fsb to 400 and it should be able to weather the heat. Gets soooooooo damn hot in here during the summer. I go to see the contractor this week about building a new house!! :thumbsup:

[csimon]

quoted from cheeme at the community forums:


The -advmethods switch is supposed to be used to request work units that are in the final stages of development, just prior to general release. It is not intended to express a preference for Gromacs or DGromacs work units.

There was a period of time (during the extended gradual introduction of the Gromacs cores) when -advmethods provided greater numbers of Gromacs WUs, and for SSE-enabled machines, a large increase in points production. Since Gromacs cores have been available for general release, use of the -advmethods switch no longer necessarily results in a competitive advantage. In fact, in some circumstances, -advmethods can reduce long-term points production.

Before choosing to invoke -advmethods, consider the following points:

The use of -advmethods is accompanied by a small risk of receiving an unstable work unit. The developers at Stanford ask that problems with work units be reported at Folding-community.org.

The use of -advmethods overrides the servers' algorithms for matching optimized software to advanced hardware. This can result, for example, in Athlon XPs and PIIs getting DGromacs units, when it's better for everyone if they go to SSE2-enabled machines.

Since the recent upgrade of the points determination system, there is no competitive advantage to Gromacs WUs over Tinker WUs. Although there is now such an advantage when a SSE2-enabled machine receives a DGromacs WU, the -advmethods switch will not, over time, result in an increase in the number of DGromacs WUs that are downloaded.

The -forceSSE switch was introduced to manually force SSE optimizations when running on AMD hardware. There was, at one time, an issue with AMD processors that resulted in instability when SSE optimiztions were used, so 3DNow! optimizations were used by default. This issue has since been resolved, and the most recent cores use SSE optimiztions by default on all SSE-enabled hardware.

Descriptions for all of the options can be found in the Folding@home Console Client: User Guide.


Very well said ...this is the point I was trying to make from the beginning of this thread but this info has been trickling down so gradually since this thread began.

Enjoy
csimon

[dragonV8]

Agreed csimon. I'm in the process of clocking the nodes back down to stock speeds and returning the voltages to stock as well. This one room may as well be called the boiler room. I had to break down and buy a window unit for this room to bring it to comfortable temps. With this many nodes I doubt I'll mess with OC'ing again as stability is better for managing the farm rather than having to resolve instability issues all the time while those aussies bogard all the production ranks ahead of me.

KingFish
Interesting thread. Sally might understand what is going on, me, i just keep lifting heavy weights, lol.

It appears a few of us have lower than normal production figures. Sally had a few probs with heat and at least one big WU not turning in or a few shutting down early. Too late to do a copy of the logs.

KingFish, i'll have a talk to Sally later and ask her to slow down a bit if you like, hehehe.

Going to shut a few puters down this week anyway, one at the time, to do maintenance. The new papst fans arrived and a few other things aswell. That is so i don't get bored on my week off, starting today. Sally shut them down for disk maintenance the other day so i guess in a sense we are all in the same boat.

[muddocktor]

I'm keeping the -advmethods switch on my P4's for sure. Even though they've reworked the points and are now using a 2.8 P4 for benching, the P4 rigs will still turn in a better point return by processing Gro and DGro work than Tinker, due to the relatively crappy native FP performance of their architecture. Since Tinker doesn't utilize any form of SSE or SSE2, the P4 has to depend entrely on it's native FP and is inefficient. It's much better to maximize it's processing efficiency by trying to do nothing but WU's that use SIMD instructions.

As far as for the -forceasm and -forcesse flags, they will start the client without checking for instability, which sounds bad at first glance. However, if for some reason your computer powers down without shutting down the client (power outtage, accidently unplug the wrong plug, etc) and you aren't using one of those switches, the next time you start the client back up it will disable any SIMD optimization use until the client has gone through one complete shutdown and restart with no problems. Even though your rig is perfectly stable, not running either -forceasm or -forcesse can slow your processing way down, so I keep that flag also in my startup. Since they've fixed the client for the SSE problem they were having with AMD procs, it's probably better to go back to strictly using just the -forceasm flag now, since it's possible that Stanford might drop the -forcesse flag support from future revisions of the client.

One other note; I still think I average a little better processing strictly Gro and DGro, by running -advmethods instead of getting what comes up by running no flag at all. I do know that I am running work that isn't quite tested enough to be in general release a lot times while running -advmethods, so anyone else that is using that flag needs to be aware of the fact that you can occasionally get bad work with it.

:smokin:

[csimon]

I agree ...I've left -advmethods on my P4's (lab).
But I may have a change of heart real soon!!!

[csimon]

ok ...I have officially removed -advmethods from all of my machines ...you can monitor my progress if you like on the EOC stats or just ask me and I'll let you know how it's coming along.