Strange problem with front USB wiring..

[lemonlime]

Work just picked up a nifty 512MB USB 2.0 key for me, and I went to plug it into my front USB case ports, only to receive a 'Device not recognized' message pop up in windows XP. It's the first time I've used them, so I was not surprised. I immediatly opened up my Antec case, and yanked out the seperated pins. I checked all of them, and they matched up fine. I decided to try another device, so I plugged in my USB trackball, and it was recognized and worked fine.

Upon closer inspection, I noticed that there were three grounds present, and only two required. The last pin on the mobo was a NC (mobo is an ASUS A7N8X-E Delux). The third ground had both a blue and black wire crimped together. The other two grounds were brown and black.

To make things even stranger, I had a PCI plate with a couple USB ports on it. I plugged that into the same mobo header, and the USB 2.0 key worked fine!.

Is there something I'm missing with the grounds or something? That USB header is working fine, its gotta be something with the wiring.. Is there something wiring related that would cause a usb 2.0 device to fail and a usb 1.1 device to work?

Anyone have any ideas ?

Thanks

[edcentric]

OK, they have played some games with the pin out configuration.
Get your handy multimeter and check each pin on the fron USB socket to confirm which internal pin it is. Mark them 1, 2, and so on. Now connect them according to the USB rules. My guess is that one or more pins are miss marked. USB 1 doesn't use all of the pins, 2 does.

[GHoosdum]

I have a feeling that where the grounds are connected matters in USB 2 configurations. I've had front connectors fail to recognize USB drives when they worked fine with all other devices. I switched the grounds around and then it read the device just fine.

[lemonlime]

Thanks for the help, I'll try to switch around the grounds and see if I have any luck.

[Straight_Man]

Work just picked up a nifty 512MB USB 2.0 key for me, and I went to plug it into my front USB case ports, only to receive a 'Device not recognized' message pop up in windows XP. It's the first time I've used them, so I was not surprised. I immediatly opened up my Antec case, and yanked out the seperated pins. I checked all of them, and they matched up fine. I decided to try another device, so I plugged in my USB trackball, and it was recognized and worked fine.

Upon closer inspection, I noticed that there were three grounds present, and only two required. The last pin on the mobo was a NC (mobo is an ASUS A7N8X-E Delux). The third ground had both a blue and black wire crimped together. The other two grounds were brown and black.

To make things even stranger, I had a PCI plate with a couple USB ports on it. I plugged that into the same mobo header, and the USB 2.0 key worked fine!.

Is there something I'm missing with the grounds or something? That USB header is working fine, its gotta be something with the wiring.. Is there something wiring related that would cause a usb 2.0 device to fail and a usb 1.1 device to work?

Anyone have any ideas ?

Thanks


This particular issue can happen some other ways also:

Sometimes the builder hooks the USB front to a header for USB1. A USB flash storage device or key can not work if not hooked to a USB 2 connection. Sometimes the front case assembly is not hooked up right, and case USB ports CAN be USB1 from the get-go on an older case. PCI cards that are USB capable can handle same key or flash storage device.

Check the grounds and pinouts first, then make sure the front is actually hooked to a USB 2.0 header after making sure the USB ports supplied with case are also USB 2.0 ports-- old front ports might not have correct pinout at port for USB storage or auth devices if not designed for USB 2.0....

[lemonlime]

Well, I tried just about every pin out combination that is possible, and I've come to the conclusion that the front USB ports and wiring for my case must not be USB2.0 capable. As soon as I forced USB 1.1 in the bios, it worked perfectly fine. If I connect any other USB ports to the header, it works fine in 2.0. Its not a big deal, I'll live with the 1.1. I ripped off the front panel and scoped out the connection, there does appear to be some small resistors and a capacitor on the small PCB that the USB ports reside on. I'm wondering if those could be causing the problem with 2.0. Oh well, like I said.. 1.1 is fine for now :)

[skankin otaku]

I have this EXACT same problem with my new USB thumb drive. has anyone else solved this problem or come up with a solution. If you did that would be great!! Thank you very much!

[mrslacker]

Me too. My camera, along with every other USB1.1 device, works fine in the front panel connectorts, but not my USB2 flash drive. :mad: I have previously noticed a PCB on the connectors when cleaning my case, and I agree with lemonlime that this PCB is the problem. Anyone know if you can buy these types of connectors and manually adapt them to your case? I have an antec 1080amg, which is pretty common. Maybe there's something out there.

[Dexter]

skankin otaku & mrslacker,

did you guys read all the posts above? In this case it was determined that the issue was with the case or the motherboard not being USB 2.0 compliant. You will need to confirm that your systems can handle 2.0, make sure it is enabled in the BIOS, and that any needed drivers are installed.

Dexter...

[mrslacker]

skankin otaku & mrslacker,

did you guys read all the posts above? In this case it was determined that the issue was with the case or the motherboard not being USB 2.0 compliant. You will need to confirm that your systems can handle 2.0, make sure it is enabled in the BIOS, and that any needed drivers are installed.

Dexter...

I said that my case was not USB 2.0 compliant! ...and that is the apparent problem. What do you think I missed? I didn't bore everyone with the details, but the story is almost identical to that of lemonlime. I even tried the motherboard (Asus P4P800) supplied PCI slot space connectors, which worked on the same MB plugs! All other USB 2.0 compatible ports work perfectly with my flash drive.

[Dexter]

mrslacker,

just checking, but did you check that the USB settings in the BIOS are set properly for 2.0? And, did you install the Intel Chipset Software Installation Utility V5.00.1012.? If so, then you are probably stuck with a case that is not compliant, but double check those 2 things to be safe. You can download the Intel Chipset Software here:

http://www.asus.com.tw/support/download/item.aspx?ModelName=P4P800

Dexter...

[skankin otaku]

My case is not usb 2.0 compliant. I figured this out. The only way to fix it and make it complant is to either buy a front usb port that will fit in one of my empty 3.5" or 5.25" bays, or to sheild the USB ports myself. That apparently is the only way to fix it. (assuming its a case issue)

I do have a usb 2.0 MB header and they work with 2.0, just not with the case. Also, others have had trouble with Antec front USB ports and having them not properly sheilded.

Not quite sure how to sheild usb ports myself so i'll probably order a front usb port thingy for my case from newegg for $7.50 plus $4 shipping.

[mrslacker]

just checking, but did you check that the USB settings in the BIOS are set properly for 2.0? And, did you install the Intel Chipset Software Installation Utility V5.00.1012.?

Yup, those drivers are high on my list during a clean install. I have verified that these internal connectors will do 2.0 with Asus supplied connectors. Thanks for asking though... sometimes I forget to check the truely important things. Normally I'm pretty attentive to detail though.

skankin otaku,
Is it shielding that is the issue? I assumed it was wiring. I saw that (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=15-104-225&depa=1) at newegg.com also! I thought about about removing the plastic 3.5" panel and trying to fasten the connectors where the antec connectors are now.



EDIT: Actually, I'm pretty sure I'm using more recent intel drivers.

[skankin otaku]

I think it's the sheilding, but I'm not quite sure. I saw at another forum the same problem and the solution was improper sheilding. Not sure if it would work for us or not.

It could probably be either wiring or sheilding. I just know that the case ports are bad.

Other ports like that should work as long as they are 2.0, since brackets that came with our Mobo's work fine with each of our motherboards.

[mrslacker]

What's your case model?

[skankin otaku]

Antec Performance II SOHO File Server

SX1040BII

[davidpanderson]

Okay, so I need some help here plz...OMG...TWO of my ASUS P4P800E mobos had their Southbridge ICH melted by USB 2.0 and my Antec PlusView SoHo 1000 AMG server case's front USB connectors! I built my system in December and the first incident happened in February:

Ok, so first of all, here are my specs:

Intel P4 3.0GHZ HT L2 Prescott
ASUS P4P800-E Mobo
ATI x800Pro AGP 8x 256MB VPU on VGA
2 x Seagate Baraccuda 7200.7 RAID 0 80GBs
2 x OCZ PC3200 512MB DIMM RAM 2-5-3-3-7
Antec SoHo PlusView AMG 1000 Server case
Antec True 480W PS
Standard Intel heatsink and 3 case fans
Various CD-RW and DVD, floppy, ZIP drives
Cold cathodes

So, first time something happened I was playing World of Warcraft an decided to see what would happnen if I plugged in my iPod cable, with no iPod attached (I was bored), to the front USB port. The game and PC froze, and I smelt burning plastic and the case filled with smoke...so I yanked out the PS cord and took the PC apart. The southbridge ICH was melted badly and then when I tried to reboot, no POST.

WOOT! Not. I bought a new P4P800-E and installed it. Worked fine. No other components were damaged. I played WoW again and everything was fine. I plugged in a USB snakelight numerours times, and it was fine. After another month I was playing World of Warcraft again and I need to light up the keyboard discreetly ... friend sleeping on couch ... so I used the snakelight. POOF! PC and game freezes, and another mobo dead and smoke everywhere. Same exact area melted and burned...on the black plastic of the Southbridge ICH. Now I'm mad. These mobos cost like $160 Canadian with tax.

That was a week ago. Today I took apart the case and everything again, took off the front of the case itself and inspected the wiring to the USB ports. Nothing special...except for the two grounds of course...which I don't understand anyway (I'm not electrically inclined). A different pin on the wire is plugged out than on the header connector, I assume that is just so that the wire is attached properly...and my jumpers are fine on the mobo...and there is no burning or anything on the circuitry. The fuses on the mobo are fine, and no extra solder anywhere.

Can someone PLEASE tell me why it keeps frying? It happened EXACTLY at the moment I plugged in the USB devices both times, and I have surge bars and an APC power UPS, so its not a PS surge or spike from the PS itself. I am really in need of some help before I go and buy ANOTHER P4P800-E. I don't really want to change boards because I like this one. My case IS USB 2.0 compliant.

A desperate cry for help!

[GrayFox]

You pluged a ground in the wrong spot :rolleyes:

[davidpanderson]

I didn't mess with any of the wiring though...all I did was unplug it from the header and case to look at it today...there isn't any way I could have done that wrong unless Antec wired it wrong, since it fit fine on the header when I assembled it.

Any other suggestions? (thanks though Gray, for your input)

[GrayFox]

Pullout the antec one then so your not tempted to put anything in it again.Ive seen a board break because the ground was put into power (or was it a power in a ground). My advice is pull the antec one out or not hook it up.

[davidpanderson]

I've done that...I'm not dumb enough to fry a THIRD board for no reason...I don't have all the money in the world...LOL...but I would still like to know if anyone knows what is causing it (obviously some sort of short) and if it is the mobo or the case I should be worried about fixing. I heard that some Antec cases have the same problem since they were wired wrong when they were made. If anyone has a USB wiring diagram it might be helpful too, just in case I decide to mess with it :).

Also, what 80mil fan is the quietest? I need to quiet this beast down a bit since the Antec case fans x2 and the P4 stock fan make quite a racket! Thanks a bunch.

[davidpanderson]

Maybe a solution to this is to ground the case circuitry to the case itself, as suggested in other forums. I'm not going to risk it though, and I will just forget that the front USB ports exist. From reading A LOT of other posts about the exact same problem with an Antec case and an ASUS P4P800 series mobo and the ICH5R, I am beginning to see that this is not an isolated incident. Half of the posts I read said that the USB 2.0 didn't work on their setups (as above, in this paragraph) and the other half said that they fried numerous P4P800s before giving up on the front ports, much like I did. I am going to conclude that the ICH5R is *crap* and can't handle any stress...each time it fried on me I was using up a lot of VPU an CPU power with gaming (World of Warcraft) and with my RAID SATA setup perhaps the little black chipset just couldn't take it (at the fault of Intel...how about they TEST stuff more?!).

Concluded that none of you should buy the ICH5R and put too much stress on it. It will die, especially when combined with USB use!

'Nuf said. I'm off to buy a new P4P800-E, Arctic Silver 5, and a CoolerMaster Hyper 48 heatpipe today and hopefully no more problems will occur. Only onboard back panel USB for me!

[profdlp]

One thing to keep in mind is that USB devices are powered through the USB connector, unless they have another power supply (like printers & scanners, etc). It could be that your light (and other devices) operate right at the limit the USB port can provide. It may be a case that you just went to the well once too often and crossed that fine line between the power the port can supply and the amount drawn by the device.

With all of the Weird USB Gadgets (http://www.everythingusb.com/hardware/Offbeat_USB_Gadgets/) available these days, I'm surprised there aren't more problems like this.

One answer is to get a separate powered USB hub. If you don't want another external device competing for space in your computer area, there are hubs which will fit in a spare 3.5" drive bay. I've used something similar to the device at the bottom of this page (http://www.starmount.co.uk/usb_hubs2.htm) with great success. Keep in mind that even a powered internal device such as this will still put the load on your computer's PSU. An external hub with a wall-wart power supply is the safest bet. :)

[davidpanderson]

Okay, thanks...I got my system up again today after getting a new mobo (same kind), and I've just given up on the front ports altogether.

[marmo]

davispanderson,

I have buit 3 identacal systems with the same mobo, Asus P4P800 E-Deluxe using 2 gb of corsiar ram and a 3.0 Intel prescot. All three have Antec Soho file server cases and all 3 have had the south bridge fail the same exact way as you. After fiquring out it was the front usb ports that always seemed to cause this S bridge chip to fry and fail I did some investigation. It seems that some (older) cases (and I am not sure it is all Antec here) have an extra ground wire for the 9th pin on the USB header. Now if you read the Asus mobo pinout it says N/C for that pin. So by having this wire hooked up to the 9th pin I am assuming that is is dumping some static electic into the circuit and that is what might be starting off the burning up process. I also assume Static Electric that is setting it off b/c it does not happen all he time. So I call Antect to confirm my theory and I was told that in other words, most mobos/systems would shut down if you had the 9th wire (ground) hooked up. However with this Asus particular design it causes the S bridge to fail. Antec says this wire is not to be hooked up if the pin out says N/C (no connection) or O/C (open connection). Now some of my new cases that i have recently built with Coolermaster and my own personal Antec P160W does not een have a 9th wire. So it seems that they are dropping this ground out. I wonder why....

BTW: you can get those mobos warrantied by Asus. All of mine have been replaced and I plan on calling them and letting them know what might causing the issue.

[marmo]

Wow this post is old, I have just checked the dates posted. Hope fully others will read and learn and maybe so of those who posted are still around. At any rate I just found this info relating to this issue and just wanted to pass it along. Seems this is a known poroblem for this Chipset.


Have a look at this:


It seems the ICH5/ICH5R are sensitive to static discharge. If
the static enters a USB port (the USB port is hosted by the
Southbridge ICH5), it causes an electrical phenomenon called
"latchup". Latchup is where a phantom PNPN semiconductor junction
forms - that is the same structure as an SCR. Latchup turns on
the junction, and the junction sits across the power rails of
the chip. A _large_ current flows through the ICH5 and it gets
really hot - so hot in fact, that it can burn. The Southbridge
can be destroyed in a matter of seconds.

That means you should RMA (return under warranty) the motherboard.
Have a look at the Southbridge and see if there is visible damage.

For anyone else out there with a P4P800/P4C800 motherboard, I
recommend you stop using front panel mounted USB ports right
away. Or, continue to use your front mounted USB ports, but do
not "hot plug" any more appliances on the front mounted ports.
That means, from now on, you can only install USB devices with
the computer off (that means the switch on the back of the
computer is in the OFF position, then install USB device).
That is one workaround to try to stop this epidemic - the
PNPN junction cannot work if the power is off when the ESD
happens.

The USB port has been carefully constructed to prevent this from
happening, but as users, we have to be sure when building a
computer, that we support the USB design intent.

The USB port consists of:

1) Connector shield. That is the metal body of the USB connector.
It makes contact first. The shield on the computer side _MUST_
be connected to ground. When an appliance is "hot plugged",
static electricity on the USB cable is transferred to ground
when the shields of the two devices touching first.

2) Take a look at the pins inside the USB connector. The outside
pins are longer than the inside pins. The outside pins are
+5V and GND. They make contact before the two shorter data
pins. By having the power pins connect first, that prevent
currents from flowing through the data pins without a logic
ground in place.

Everyone should check their USB front port wiring. Make sure
that the shield around the four pins, is at ground potential
with respect to the motherboard. This is complicated by the
fact that the motherboard header only has enough ground pins
for the signal pins.

/ USB+5V (VCC) X X (VCC) USB+5V ----> \
To __/ USB_P5- (D-) X X (D-) USB_P6- ----> \__ To
USB \ USB_P5+ (D+) X X (D+) USB_P6+ ----> / USB
pins \ GND (GND) X X (GND) GND ----> / pins
/ X NC \
_____/ \______ GND must also
GND must also go go to connector
to connector shield metal!
shield metal!

Check the design of the front USB adapter plate, and make
sure that the connector shield is grounded. Using an ohmmeter,
you should measure zero ohms between the shield of the USB
connector and the bare metal of the computer case (as the case
is grounded via the PSU case and via the brass standoffs that
contact the ground rings on the bottom of the motherboard).

If the connector shield is well grounded, perhaps future
"hot plugged" USB devices will not destroy any more motherboards!

Or, simply stop using front mounted USB. Only use the USB ports
on the back of the computer, as the ground is established by
the motherboard design. If you don't own a multimeter, or
don't wish to fiddle with wiring, just stop using the front
mounted ports. You can always bring a USB cable from the
back of the computer, up to your desk.

[lemonlime]

Thats some great info, thanks for posting it here marmo.

I never had any fried components as a result of the Antec SOHO 1080AMG wiring, but I was limited to USB 1.1. It was the same with several different AMD mainboards too. I've since moved to a new case, but I'm sure there are others experiencing problems too.

Thanks again.