Anyone else seen this 9-11 video ? I hadn't heard any of this

[Tex]

http://www.elchulo.net/files/pentagon.swf

[leishi85]

Wow

[primesuspect]

That is amazing. Truly frightening. And it begs the question-- If all that is true, then what the hell is going on?

[Tex]

Who knows whats the truth. We get fed exactly what they want us to know. Does make one think though huh?

Tex

[primesuspect]

discussion started (http://www.keyboardjockey.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=266&view=getnewpost) at keyboardjockey.com

[RADA]

It's complete BS! Being ex-military, I have more than one friend that works in the Pentagon. One of them died in the attack. Left-wing propagandist crap like this pisses me off. :mean:

This is why this is BS:


I PERSONALLY saw copies of the investgative photographs clearly showing aircraft wreakage. An 80 ton aircraft, loaded with jet fuel, made mostly of aluminum, hits a stone, iron, and concrete building, explodes and burns. Anybody that has even a rudimentary understanding of physics would know why there wasn't much left of the plane.
A well know journalist (can't remember her name) was talking on the phone with her husband as the plane hit. I suppose she is in on the controversy, and wanted to die for the cause?
Only someone who isn't in the military would concoct BS like this, trying to pass it off as fact.
Add to the list the witnesses who saw the aircraft strike the building. I suppose all three of the individuals I know are lieing?


If you do more research on where this "theory" came from, you see it originated from French media sources. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. From there it spread thoughout conspiracy theorist website on the internet.

BS! :mean:

[RWB]

That flash video was obviously built to train your brain... make it look cool and people will listen.

Though while I wander how accurate it really is, it does bring up some interesting information. But again, how accurate is their own information? In the end, we have to work to find out for ourselves.

[primesuspect]

That's why I said "IF" ... information can be presented and manipulated either way. We should all know that.

It is a surprisingly small amount of damage for such a huge plane, you really can't dispute that.

[GHoosdum]

That SWF filmmaker is taking after Michael Moore. I think it's interesting that "the FBI confiscated the evidence" can be used as evidence that it wasn't a 757... I thought that confiscating evidence was their job... Also, the fire was burning in the building for a long time, as I recall - these photos could have been taken long enough after the impact that anything outside the building was already taken by the NTSB.

It does seem to be a small amount of wreckage for a 757, though. Maybe it was actually a SCUD missile fired by Saddamn Hussein...

[S_Wilson]

Could have been a smaller plane something more like "regional jet size" since the damage is somewhat minimal for a 757 sized plane. More importantly at this point does it really matter?

[primesuspect]

Well, yeah, it matters a lot. If it WAS a regional jet sized plane, then we have been lied to on an extremely grand and terrifying scale....

[GHoosdum]

It matters only minimally - because the discrepancy allows conspiracy theorists to yell "coverup!" I bet it was the same people within the DoD that had JFK killed who ordered a cruise missile simulate a 757 impact with the Pentagon! In fact, it must have been George W. Bush himself who had JFK killed!

//edit: In saying it matters minimally, I am assuming, of course, that it really was a 757 that hit the Pentagon, and the damage just looks smaller in the photos than it really is.

[Tex]

Well, yeah, it matters a lot. If it WAS a regional jet sized plane, then we have been lied to on an extremely grand and terrifying scale....

Exactly and where4 exactly is the plane that was supposed to of struck the pentagon and all its passengers?

Tex

[S_Wilson]

Left-wing propagandist crap like this pisses me off. :mean:

Why do these have to be "Left-Wing"?

I am very conservative, pretty far to the right but there are three groups I do not trust.

1. Governments
2. Intelligence Community
3. Politicians above the local level.

These groups are all about control, power and how to get more.

[GHoosdum]

Exactly and where4 exactly is the plane that was supposed to of struck the pentagon and all its passengers?

Tex

Libya. Qadhafi and Elvis are playing paintball with the passengers, in the plane, right now.

[primesuspect]

Look, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it's healthy to be skeptical of the media. You can say "everything you see on the news is true. If the govenment said it, it's true. If GWB gets on TV and says something, it's true"

And then we'll become Iran in the 80's during the islamic revolution. Nobody thought it could get that bad, but it did, and now the intelligencia lauds the fact that "they let this happen"

So my point is, just because someone has a healthy skepticism about information that is presented as fact, doesn't make them a "left wing wackjob" or a "conspiracy theorist"...

[S_Wilson]

Well, yeah, it matters a lot. If it WAS a regional jet sized plane, then we have been lied to on an extremely grand and terrifying scale....

And knowing the truth will set us free?

We will never know the truth about these things but suppose we did find the truth and all those responsible were ousted from power, then what? Then we would be saying "Hello to the new boss, same as the old boss."

[GHoosdum]

I wasn't calling you a conspiracy theorist, Brian... I was calling the guy that made the animation a conspiracy theorist.

Granted, much less information was released about the Pentagon strike than about the Trade Center hit - but I attribute that more to the fact that the Pentagon is the center of the US's military command operations, and as such warrants a level of secrecy above that of the Twin Towers - where we certainly saw plenty of clear indication that a few 757s DID hit.

[GHoosdum]

Here's my totally unprofessional analysis.

Link to plane wreckage photos in Pentagon (http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm)

This photo shows the aftermath. Notice how thick those internal walls are. It seems to me that it would probably take something significantly heavier to pierce the first ring and make it collapse later, and puncture a few more rings. Remember, the Pentagon is a hardened military building. Each internal wall appears to be concrete as thick as the outside wall.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/pentagon_010914-f-8006r-003.jpg

This is a wider shot of the aftermath. Look closely at those trees on the left. The lawn that the SWF file states as undamaged, and never having been hit by a plane, would be to the left of these trees in this photo, having been in the foreground in the SWF file. There's a bunch of space between those trees and the first outer wall.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/pentagon_010914-f-8006r-005.jpg

This is a photo of the damage as it's burning. Look at how large the impact hole appears:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/pentagon-010911-356321.jpg

Now look at this WTC photo. A large passenger jet did this size damage hole there, too, and nobody's doubting that it was anything but a large passenger jet that hit the WTC, right? If anything, the WTC hole looks to be smaller, to me.

[primesuspect]

There's just no.... fuselage, wreckage, nothing in those pics...

[GHoosdum]

The fuselage is built out of very thin aluminum. You're much more likely to see structural components in the wreckage, as that's all that would probably survive the shock of impact and the fire. The link at the top of my post has some photos of some structural stuff, like landing gear and a B757 wheel rim.

[S_Wilson]

The structure of the WTC, although very strong, allowed the planes to enter very easily which which minimized the exterior impact damage. There are plenty of visual records of the actual hits on the WTC and unfortunately there are virtually none of the pentagon. There were quite a few parts lying about in New York City such as the massive landing gear components and a turbine engine. These parts are huge and easily detach, so why were there none at the pentagon?

[GHoosdum]

These parts are huge and easily detach, so why were there none at the pentagon?

Why don't you check the link to the photos of plane wreckage from my prior post, including photos of the very parts you describe...

[Black Hawk]

Off topic but on topic at the same time: Sad thing is that you even slightly disagree with what your told and your labled some tree hugging liberal conspiracist and maybe anti-american by some (I know this happens cause I've seen it numerous times). International news even hints about the US being wrong and they jump to discredit it screaming liberal source, pro this, anti that. But if it's from your national news agency, it's the die hard true. Same as govt and law enforcement angencies around the world lie and manipulate, it also happens here. The US be wrong? Blasphemy! :rolleyes:

[S_Wilson]

I am very conservative, pretty far to the right but there are three groups I do not trust.

1. Governments
2. Intelligence Community
3. Politicians above the local level.

These groups are all about control, power and how to get more.

One thing I had better clarify. I am not extremist or part of any militia, NRA or any other such group nor am I a conspiracy theorist.

Probably should have used Primes words "healthy Skepticism" as that is more fitting and tactful for what I was trying to say. :)

[entropy]

Hm, this doesn't make sense. It cannot possibly be a missile; it would have to travel parallel to the ground for too long. They have evidence it was a plane - several people have seen it, although the tapes have never been released, and sure you can say, "But wait! What if the government threatened them?!" Yeah whatever. It just doesn't happen. It couldn't be a bomb; a bomb wouldn't explode left and right. I don't really see the point in making this propaganda video, and then using it to scare the masses. Isn't that terrorism's FIRST and ONLY objective?! To instill fear!? Look what you're doing. YOU ARE HELPING THEM AND EFFECTIVELY BECOMING THEM. Sorry guys, I don't buy this one. Excuse the rant, I'm just sick of all the propaganda EVERYWHERE (That new overtime law that got blown WAY out of proportion, etc, our economy and how it's going up yet people claim it isn't...Anything political I'm fed up with - mudslinging is the least effective way to get your message out, you jackasses (that was aimed at the politicians ;):) )).

[Nomad]

There's just no.... fuselage, wreckage, nothing in those pics...

They never found any actual noticable pieces of wreckage in the World Trade Center aswell.

Off topic but on topic at the same time: Sad thing is that you even slightly disagree with what your told and your labled some tree hugging liberal conspiracist and maybe anti-american by some (I know this happens cause I've seen it numerous times). International news even hints about the US being wrong and they jump to discredit it screaming liberal source, pro this, anti that. But if it's from your national news agency, it's the die hard true. Same as govt and law enforcement angencies around the world lie and manipulate, it also happens here. The US be wrong? Blasphemy! :rolleyes:

It flys both ways.

[Armo]

aluminum vaporizes at high temps

[profdlp]

This is total BS. The Hitler speech playing in the background should have been a tip-off.

In September, 2001, I was living in Arlington, VA and had just quit my job and started my own computer company. One of my first clients was a Real Estate firm which wanted to network all of their computers. They didn't want the work to interfere with their normal business schedule so they requested that the work be done after hours. On the evening of September 10th I went into their office and worked overnight. I got home about 7:00am that morning and went to bed. I had been up for 24 hours.

Later that afternoon my phone was ringing like crazy. I ignored the first few calls I heard but finally gave in after they kept coming and went to see what was going on. It was my mom, asking if I was OK. I told her I was and asked her what was the big deal. She knew that I was a big news junkie and told me to turn on the TV. I asked her what channel. She replied, "doesn't matter". That's when I found out what had happened.

For the record, I lived at 705 N. Wayne St. Apt. #102, Arlington, Va 22201

Less than one mile as the crow flies from the Pentagon.

I was glued to the TV for the rest of the afternoon. That night (about 9:00pm) I went out to see things for myself. I still don't know why, but I took my dogs with me, they rode in the back of the car. In the six-and-a-half years I've had them it remains the only time that they've gone out with me without actually "going somewhere". We drove down I-395 through Arlington and at every exit passed numerous Police, Fire, and other emergency vehicles. Then we got to the Penatgon.

They had already erected high-power lights to facilitate the rescue effort. The area was lit so well that one could see everything from the highway. What I saw with my own eyes was a gaping hole which had made a cinder of one side of the building.

Something you should know, if you haven't seen it for yourself, is that the Pentagon is enormous. The building covers 29 acres. The courtyard in the center covers 5 acres by itself. It wouldn't suprise anyone who has actually seen it to expect the damage to be somewhat localized. Until you've been there you have no idea just how big it is. GHoosdum posted some pictures - those aren't Boy Scout tents set up for the rescue workers. They are pavilions to hold thirty of forty people or more. Look at the size of those rescue vehicles - those aren't Matchbox cars.

If you still aren't convinced, let me tell you about my brother-in-law, Commander Osa E. Fitch, USN. He was at the opposite side of the Pentagon when the plane struck. The entire concrete structure shook. Compare this to the more modern WTC, which was built inside a steel shell. (Brick-and-mortar high-rise buildings reached their peak with the Empire State Building in 1931.) The WTC buildings were designed to take a "puncture" from a plane. No one at the time of their design expected the effects of fire from a fully-loaded aircraft. The buildings in NY remained standing for a good while after being hit, saving many lives. Had technology allowed them to be constructed of brick they would be standing still. My bro-in-law ran around the side of the building to try and render assistance. It was a 20-minute sprint. By the time they got there it had already been determined that there were no survivors on the plane. If you look at the pictures from the so-called video (a slideshow, really) you'll see the burn marks from the fire that spread up the hallway which was the cause of many of the deaths in the building. Rescuers were already inside the building attempting to save survivors. Only those with emergency gear could enter the building.

You'll hear lot's of BS about any topic of national importance. You'll hear even more BS over the Internet. This isn't one of those. This is someone you know - Prof - telling you what he saw and how he feels about it.

This is not your Uncle's-cousin's-friend-who-works-with-a-guy-who-knew-somebody-who-talked-to-someone.

It's me. That's what I saw.

[Crazy Joe]

She knew that I was a big news junkie and told me to turn on the TV. I asked her what channel. She replied, "doesn't matter".

That's the same exact conversation I had with GHoosdum when I woke him up that morning when it happened...

[Nomad]

I was home sick from school that day... I saw the first tower in flames watching the news and eating chicken noodle soup. I remember vividly, looking down to take a slurp of soup, and then looking back up and watching the second plane fly into the building...

[S_Wilson]

The Hitler speech playing in the background should have been a tip-off.


Didn't hear that. Had the sound turned down somewhat.

Is it just me or does anyone else grimace and brace themselves anytime they click a link to a flash movie?

[EMT]

I guess I can add to Prof's firsthand account. My high school was in Silver Spring right on the north side of the [D.C.] Beltway and I was in compsci class when all this happened. We looked out the window to the south and even from the other side of the capital we could see the smoke. Whatever this is sounds pretty bogus.

[Nomad]

Didn't hear that. Had the sound turned down somewhat.

Is it just me or does anyone else grimace and brace themselves anytime they click a link to a flash movie?

No, I religiously check hyperlinks to make sure I'm not getting goated.

[Jengo]

Whoa... dude.. that was shows how much bush lied up his ****ing arse...

[Thrax]

I was in my second hour (Student government) finishing a project for fourth hour (US History) on freedom. Double irony.

We flipped on the news and saw the replay of the first plane, and I saw the second plane hit live on TV. I saw the buildings crumble. I've never seen the world so silent, or so many people seething with anger.

It was scary.

[Jengo]

What about scud missiles? how big are they? or say any missile that can be launched from really far distances, what are some of the largest ones?

[Thrax]

You actually believe this?

[Black Hawk]

What about scud missiles? how big are they? or say any missile that can be launched from really far distances, what are some of the largest ones?
Tomahawk cruise missile

[^Ben]

Well you can't see it in those low res picture.

But there is actually a mark where a plane entered the building and the wings folded back.

I can't find the picture at the moment.

[GHoosdum]

Didn't hear that. Had the sound turned down somewhat.

Is it just me or does anyone else grimace and brace themselves anytime they click a link to a flash movie?

I never grimace when I click a link to a Folding flash video. But I do brace myself for a good time! :thumbsup:

[muddocktor]

I'm also throwing the :bs: flag on this stupid flash film; it's as full of **** as a Christmas turkey. :rant: And I can't believe that anyone who's even half educated would bite on this pile of horse dung either.:rolleyes2

Where are the wings and tail you ask? They are ****ing vaporized, that's where. This plane had taken off not too long ago and was loaded with Jet-A fuel, which is very much like K1 kerosene except that I think it burns even hotter. The majority of the plane actuallly burned and/or vaporized in the extremely hot fire caused by the fuel exploding and burning. If you don't think aluminum can burn, ask Missileman; he can tell you that one of the major components in the fuel used in the SRB's on the space shuttle is aluminum based. It's also something that the Brits learned in the Faukland Islands in the early 80's war with Argentina when the Sheffield was hit with an Excocet missile. The Sheffield's superstructure was made of aluminum and contributed to the loss of the ship after the missile hit because it burned and vaporized instead of helping to contain the damage like steel would have. A simple experiment anyone can do to check what happens to aluminum is to take a propane torch to an aluminum pop can and see how it melts and decomposes, but don't breath the fumes as they are toxic.

Why is the hole so small you ask? According to that propaganda film, a loaded 757 weighs 80 tons (160,000 pounds), but what does the Pentagon weigh? I would imagine that the Pentagon would be on the order of 50,000-100,000 tons, and the Pentagon also doesn't have to worry about being able to fly either. Planes are built no stronger than they absolutely have to be, to make them light enough to fly economically, especially passenger aircraft. The wings are mainly built of aluminum and are wet wings, which means that they carry the greatest majority of the fuel and would therefore be burned up in the fireball. The main damage into the building was caused by the fuselage, which carries the majority of the heaviest and strongest pieces of the aircraft, such as the main wing spar support structure and landing gear and such. The fuselage also has a small cross section from front to back, which gives it greater penetrating power. Another experiemnt you can try for yourself on this fact is also easy to do. Go get a new pencil and before you sharpen it, try to stick the end into something. Then sharpen the end and try to stick it into the same object and see how much easier it penetrates. That ****ing film also shows some other airplane crashes and shows long streaks of destruction and debris but the asshats that made that bull**** film neglect to mention that those crashes they included in their propaganda film are crashes from an oblique angle. If they would have shown a crash where the aircraft came in at a very steep angle the view would have been much different, much more like what you see at the Pentagon, which was struck at damn near a 90 degree angle(from the ground, not side to side). Finally, even that crap film says that the section of the Pentagon that was struck had just been renovated, which included hardening of the structure. That shows in all the pics of the damage just how well the structure hardening did it's job, which is to minimize the amount of damage caused to the building from just such an occurence.

What about a missile strike say say? Well, I am no expert on building structues or hardening a building so it may have been possible for a cruise missile to do that damage, but is extremely remote that a cruise missile is what did it(even discounting the eyewitnesses that saw the plane hit). Ask yourself, how the **** could a bunch of radical ****wads have developed the infrastructure to handle and deploy a cruise missile? A cruise missile the size of a Tomahawk or Silkworm cruise missile isn't like deploying a model airplane guys; the ****er is as big as a small fighter jet. How the hell are you going to launch the ****er? They are also guided either by radar(for use against ships) or by terrrain maps and GPS and terrain mapping radar carried internally. Either way, they need to be uploaded into the missile before flight, so the missile knows where to go. Now you are talking about some specialized and sophisticated equipment to also bring into the USA and deploy. You folks that are bringing up the cruise missile angle; are you trying to tell me that someone in the US military fired a Tomahawk at the Pentagon? Give me a ****ing break; that couldn't happen, Hollywood films not withstanding. :rolleyes:

This flash film = :bs: :bs: :bs:

:shakehead

[GHoosdum]

I think they're trying to say that George W. Bush fired a Tomahawk at the Pentagon. Because he had so much reason to do so... :shakehead

[muddocktor]

I think they're trying to say that George W. Bush fired a Tomahawk at the Pentagon. Because he had so much reason to do so... :shakehead


Boy, I hope that's not what they are trying to say! If so, then my estimation of their intelligence will take a hard knock, for sure! Do they think you can load and deliver a Tomahawk in 30 minutes or less?:shakehead And what about all the personel involved in delivering the missile, they are all The Shrub's boot-licking lackey's that kiss his ass every time he farts? :skeptic:


Again, give me a break!(them, not you, GH) ;D

[GHoosdum]

Boy, I hope that's not what they are trying to say! If so, then my estimation of their intelligence will take a hard knock, for sure!

Again, I think I need to clarify that I was talking about this flash animation maker, and similar conspiracy theorists whose rants about this topic I viewed in searching for information about the plane parts in the Pentagon, rather than the folks on this forum.

:thumbsup:

[-tk]

anyone hear the one about the plane hitting tower 2 not being a 767, but a military Global Hawk? or the one about the fake-o cell phone calls? or the one about how the towers were actually demolished from the inside w/explosives after the planes hit? I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, and I do believe that we're being lied to but..

C"MON GUYS LIGHTEN UP!

[Preacher]

Well...I have to add my two cents to the debate. As so many have already pointed out, at high temps, aluminum burns very well and is very hard to extinguish. The USS Stark back in the 1980s was an aluminum ship hit by an Iraqi Exocet missile. It had an aluminum superstructure and if not for herculean efforts by the crew (they flooded much of the ship!), it would have burned down to the steel hull. The warheads didn't even explode correctly. Most of the damage was caused by unexpended jet fuel.

Also, I just spent two years working with two Navy Admirals, both of whom had offices in the Pentagon where the aircraft hit. One was away on travel which was lucky, because his office was incinerated. The other was in his office, but got out. He clearly heard a large commercial jet prior to impact and said there was aircraft wreckage. As they are both Navy pilots with thousands of hours, I'd take their opinion over some average citizen off the street. Besides the fact that people's recollection is often times suspect (recognized by detectives, lawyers, military intelligence, and parents of small children everywhere), how do these people even know what a missile sounds like? Also, how are any of these supposed man on the street quotes verified? Where are the author's sources for the video, pictures, and interviews/quotes?

Additionally, I fly the P-3 Orion and we had 10 people in my community that were killed at the Pentagon. Knowing what they sacrificed and the thousands of others, I'm bothered that people continue this travesty. It isn't a surprise though as we all know the Earth is really flat, we never landed on the moon, and the world is really ruled by the Pentaverate with Martha Stewart substituted for Colonel Sanders.

The author seems to insinuate/suggest it was a missile shot by someone high in our government or another group. That is plainly ludicrous and assanine at best. I fully support people's right to free speech, but just because I think we should have the right to burn a US Flag doesn't mean I think we should. We should be sceptical of the media and the government, but being a skeptic doesn't mean you have to be a lunatic conspiracy theorist. A skeptic is someone who doubts and questions preconceived and generally accepted conclusions, but also applies logic to that thought process. Using a modicum of thought, one can easily disprove the missile theory. There is no way it could have been either a SCUD or a TLAM.

At least our government and the media have a system of checks and balances, however imperfect and fallible, who polices some random conspiracy theorist making flash presentations on the net?

[Nomad]

The Illuminati are not happy with your comments preacher :p

[Thrax]

The Freemasons are displeased.

[Jengo]

i dont really know what to beilive anymore....

both major canidats for president right now are lying out of there arses... i mean... kerry just talks all this dumb crap.. all he wants to do is make everyone happy... Bush at least thinks hes doing the right thing for america.. but some of it seems like its not.... i dunno anymore.. but meh... ima go install Knoppix on my HDD and toy with it... bye bye!

[Black Hawk]

i dont really know what to beilive anymore....

both major canidats for president right now are lying out of there arses... i mean... kerry just talks all this dumb crap.. all he wants to do is make everyone happy... Bush at least thinks hes doing the right thing for america.. but some of it seems like its not.... i dunno anymore.. but meh... ima go install Knoppix on my HDD and toy with it... bye bye!
You could always vote Nader :crazy:

[Jengo]

if life were only as simple as boobies...

[Black Hawk]

mmmmm....boobies.

[Preacher]

Great! I knew the Pentaverate was after me, but now the Illuminati and the Freemasons.

I vote we continue to digress off the original topic of this thread onto a deeper, more meaningful subject....

"Breasts/Pecs (for the ladies)...what is more important - size, shape, or overall symmetry/proportion?"

[S_Wilson]

"Breasts/Pecs (for the ladies)...what is more important - size, shape, or overall symmetry/proportion?"

All of the above! :D

[Thrax]

What is 'Columns A, B and C, Alex.'

[Black Hawk]

I 3rd.