The Matrix: Reloaded Theory

[AuthorityAction]

I got sort of a theory that I was thinking about. I want your opinion on it, comments/suggestions, and if you think its right...

ok, in reloaded when neo and all of them are in the "real world" neo stops one of the sentinals with his super human powers. Now i thought Neo only had theses powers in the matrix, why does he have them here? so the only explination that i can think of is that the matrix and the "real world" are both computer progams. how else can it be explained?

Thats just my theory, I don't believe in it total but it makes sense to me.

Tell me if i'm missing anything here though...

[mondi]

That makes sense, remember the architect (if he really is) says that the matrix program would be accepted by something like 99% of the population, thus zion could be the 'alternative matrix' for those who dont accept the program or are hacked out - ala neo ...

[Tropical]

Maybe Neo is just all mighty and powerful and can easily control robots. I can't really accept that the real world is another form of the matrix because they could just put layers and layer and layers of the matrix like if Neo where to escape the real world matrix, would he end up in the real world or another layer of the matrix. This is just too confusing, I can't wait for revolutions.

[LawnMM]

Guys, thats the same plot another movie was based around...do you realize how lame it would be if they copied another movie. They won't do it...its something else.

[AuthorityAction]

what movie is that lawn?

either they're both programs or neo has god like powers... o well we shall find out when revolutions comes out. I can't wait!!

[Tropical]

yeah i remember it was this machine that these guys built that made a virtual world but in fact they where in the virtual world. was it the 13th floor or something like that?

[mondi]

thats right 13th floor, interesting but uneventful movie ...

[Bad_Karma]

Neo went through the door to the source and meets the architect. The architect then tells him about the matrix and if you listen closely he says that when Neo stepped through the door Neo's conciousness is altered. I am going to assume that this is what gives Neo his new powers in the real world. I'm just guessing here. I think it would be crappy if they did the fake universe with in another fake universe.

I also remember a movie that tried to do this. It had to do with a group of scientists that create a virtual world inside a computer and then go in and interact with it. They base the world after thier own and in the end the main character who is artificaial replaces his real world duplicate. Can't remember what the hell it's called though.

[LawnMM]

Same movie BK, it was called the 13th floor. Basically, they create a virtual world and they go into it to interact with the virtual characters. The climax and big revelation of the movie was that the main character and all he was doing, was actually a virtual world. Others were coming in to interact with them, they were the only project that created a virtual world within their own.

It would be supremely corny of them to copy the same plot...they won't do it. Its something else, guaranteed.

[Souriat]

Big bunch of theory stuff copied from another forum here, not sure how 'true' some of it all is but i found it interesting anyway.

The Architect creates a virtual simulation of a human paradise, it fails as stated by agent smith in the first movie. ( This was the Matrix version 1.0 )

The Architect decides to create a second matrix which replicates all the disasters/tragedies of human history and as the Architect (Coronal Sanders looking guy) states "Its grandeur was only surpassed by it's monumental failure" ( This was the Matrix version 2.0 )

In an effort to figure out why, he enlists the help of another program (The Queen of the matrix) who suggests to him that the minds be given a choice even if its an unconscious one, which he does. But although the tries account for all possibilities, some minds make the choice NOT to go to the matrix. These minds go to Zion (The real world), which is in fact a simulation as the matrix is, except the minds in this simulation believe they are free. (This is matrix version 3.0)

Simply, If there is no choice, the matrix would break down so he doesn't want these minds in the matrix anyway because they would cause its destruction.

Also as a side effect to its programming, there is an anomaly. In programming terms an anomaly is a bug or a side effect in a systems programming where the programmer cant figure out what it is or why it happens. In most circumstances, a programmer (in this case the Architect) will try to calculate all possibilities of what the anomaly will do and try to program around them.

So what the architect did was use this anomaly (Neo) to collect data about why people are rejecting the choice to go to the matrix, then use that data to report back to "the source" which clears out zion, reloads the matrix and starts over with the improvements Neo brought to the source. At which point the anomaly is reprogrammed to pull 16 men and women from the matrix to restart Zion which is where the "prophecy" comes from, restarting the whole process and explaining why the movie is called the matrix RELOADED.

As the Architect stated, this happed five times before, Neo being the sixth.

So Five times before, when the anomaly (Neo) surfaces, he programmed it to find its way back to the source. Because the anomaly is human (or at least a human living inside the matrix/Zion simulation), it must believe the decisions are a choice or the Matrix programming will fail. Which is signified by the red pill, blue pill crap and the two doors which neo has to choose to reload the matrix with the "code" he's carrying or save
Trinity.

It is clear that the architect tried to take into account all the possibilities of Neos actions as signified by all the TV screens in his office, his current choice is the one he accounted for which is the screen it focuses in on.

This time the anomaly is different, he's in love which throws the Architects system out of whack. He saves Trinity, which in turn is supposed to save Zion but kill everyone hooked into the system. Zion was destroyed anyway for reasons below.

Programming software is allot like determining probabilities, so the Architect created programs (Oracle, agents, etc) to help increase probability that the choices the minds make are to his favor.

Oracle:
Her function is to get people who didn't make the choice to stay in the matrix out. Because if they are left in, the matrix will fail as it did 2 times before. Being that the only way the Matrix functions properly is to make the minds believe they are making a choice, she is programmed to make other minds (such as Morpheus) believe they are choosing to free people and bring them Zion. But this is actually important to the Architect because if those people stay in the matrix, it crashes.

Agents:
Although agents seem to be always working against them, but all they really are are tools to help increase probability that the minds (Warriors of Zion) have a strong belief system that they want to be free. Which also increases probability that the citizens of Zion will pull more and more people out of the matrix and into the Zion simulation, which lowers the probability of the matrix failing again.

[LawnMM]

Souriat said
[B]Big bunch of theory stuff copied from another forum here, not sure how 'true' some of it all is but i found it interesting anyway.


Phooey! Its the same matrix within a matrix scenario, I don't see them copying the plot of another movie, they're too clever for that.

My take on the situation...fairly simple.

Original matrix, perfect paradise...fails. New matrix, set to reflect human tragedy and despair, close...but also fails. The problem is that the architect programs things in a logical manner. Mathematical precision. Cause and effect, one thing leads to another, each event logically bringing about other events.

However, it doesn't account for a human trait that doesn't always follow logic, choice. Whether its logical or not, we all have a choice in everything we do. When the oracle tips him off to that, the 3rd revision is a success. Everyone has a choice whether or not to accept what they see and live as real.

Its just like when you wake up in the morning, you believe what you're seeing is real...even though we've all had dreams we would swear were real until we woke up. The fact that that choice exists is the problem. People who are free from the matrix are able to convince people that what they see is not real, thus freeing them from the matrix.

The people that do this are the ones freed from the Matrix at the time of the previous Zion's destruction. It happened 5 times prior to the current movie timeline. The one entered the core, met the architect, was given the choice. They all chose to return to the matrix, select some 32 people to be freed to perpetuate the human race. When the one returns to the core, and zion's population is destroyed, they essentially eliminate the problem brought on by the anomly. Which he described as an escalating probability of disaster.

Namely, you risk the entire population of the matrix rejecting the program, more and more people refuse. The matrix collapses, everyone dies...and with the destruction of Zion, the entire human race is destroyed and the machines power source is cripled.

By freeing 32 people to perpetuate the population of zion, having the one return to the core where his code is reinserted, and the death of all people alive who have rejected the matrix programming, the problem is solved. Nobody who has rejected the program is left alive. The system runs as usual.

The problem as they said, was choice. Neo's five predecessors all felt protective and bonded to other people in a general manner. Neo, who is in love with Trinity, does not. This throws a wrench in the architect's plans. Neo chooses not to enter the core and choose a few people to surive, he chooses to go back to the matrix, to save trinity.

The prophecy is basically a tale of the repeating cycle. The man born inside the matrix, previous versions of Neo, able to do what he wishes in the matrix. Frees the first of zion's population...(as he re-enters the core and the cycle repeats itself). The oracle prophesizes that his return will hail the destruction of the matrix and the end of the war. Which is precisely the chain of events set into motion thus far...by re-entering the matrix, according to what the architect said, the matrix will collapse.

What I'm thinking is the clincher, is that when he brings the matrix down, everyone won't die. However, the machines won't have any power and Zion will still be around.

If it was a MWAM scenario there would be no reason to kill everyone in Zion. Everyone would still be under control. There's no reason to reset the whole scenario. Most importantly, that would be a corny knockoff of a movie that's already been made and I refuse to believe the people clever enough to come up with this series of movies would do such a thing to its audience.

Something else has changed that allowed Neo to stop the sentinels. The architect said being there had altered his consciousness in some way. Its all on the line at this point. The little problem is left unchecked, the sentinels are still advancing.

The resolution will come out in November.

[Souriat]

Interesting ideas, i think i really need to see it again to get rid of various theorys ive read and clear it up, so many different ones around certainly mess with my mind :P

[RWB]

This is what the Wachowski Brothers want us to believe!!! But in fact they have a movie line no one can ever think of!:D

But if not, then it is the 13th floor all over again, but since I never saw that movie I would have to say that The Matrix is still the coolest series ever.

[RWB]

I had a revelation...
*Based on already said theories with an added horror realization*
You have the Matrix from the first Movie, the so called NORMAL one... the only one that is known as the Matrix so far. But for those who reject that Matrix, are thrown into a Nightmare "Real World. Which is simply another Matrix, one that is not at all seemingly UNREAL.

This is the theory I have stuckw ith for a while until now... the addition I thought of was when I was thinking of the "Archetect" and how he was speaking.

I don't fully believe that he is a Machine, or a Program at all. Maybe he is though, either way this grim realizationI have is pretty scary in my mind, I will try to explain my thoughts as best as possible.

The ACTUAL real world is not overrun by machines, but still Human, perhaps Humans who were once controlled by Machines as the way we seen so far, but realized that with the destroyed sky and other lost aspects, they actually must live the way the Machines did before them, but this time in a type of Canibalism. Living off of other Humans, Cloned humans that when the Matrix Destroys itself, they rebuild it and it recycles that way.

Humans Control the Matrix's, the Machines think they do, and then you have the Victims of both.

[leishi85]

wow, after reading all this theoires, i'm really excited to see matrix revolution, ahh damn it, why do we have to wait.

[maxanon]

I don't see how they're going to end it without upsetting at least some people.

- Is it a matrix within a matrix?
- Is Neo the messiah with great powers and the true prophecy (he saved Trinity's life)? This would mean that the Oracle is one of those endangered programs (remember her bodyguard, if she worked with the architect why would she need protecting?) and is turning against the matrix.
- Was it all the dream (remember the first one where he wakes all of a sudden and then all the craziness begins?) and then he meets Trinity (who is either no one or someone)?
- Is Neo a false messiah (like the architect said)? The program may have ordered those robots to stop attacking (they didn't blow up or anything) to make everyone believe that there is a chance and give Neo another choice.
- Is Morpheus the true hero?
- Is the ending going to be "love conquer's all"? It's hinted by Persephone's betrayal of her husband because she has "lost that loving feeling."
- Does agent Smith help out Zion in the end (with his multiple "personalities")?
- Either Morpheus/ Trinity and/or Neo will sacrifice themselves to create the biggest BSOD I hope to ever see.


There are probably a tonne of other possibilities. I know people are going to come back at me with a "this is lame" thing. I'm just going through some possibilities.

I can't see a kick a§§ ending to this thing. One thing that would please me would be the humans and robots fighting in the real world (that Robocop-like robot that guy was guarding the entrance to Zion with was amazing). Although it would be a little cheesy.

One question that I have, is their (Zion's) food source. Did they ever show it or is it Soylent Green?

[CyrixInstead]

I have a question: When Neo stops the sentinels at the end in the supposedly 'real-world', he stops and says "Something's different", then stops them.

What is it that's different??

[dNA3D]

Chances are, its not any of those which were suggested. Part of creating an epic film is to minimize the chance of a predictable conclusion. The Wachowski Brothers probably would've thought of all the possible expectations of the story plot and would've created a finale that was completely unexpected by a significant percentage of those who will watch Revolutions.

But then again, some of you may have already hit then nail. Gotta wait 5 torturous months to find out. In the mean time, lets party!!!

[kanezfan]

Here's the scoop guys. We are going to be blown away when at the end of the Terminator 3 it is revealed that this is the war that enslaves us. It will be the biggest cross-over movie event ever. Add to that, at the end of matrix revolutions, a new matrix is created, making humanity believe that it is living in a galaxy far far away, where the people that are, like Neo, able to bend the matrix to their will, believe they are Jedi Knights. The creators of the matrix throw this new matrix into such chaos so that none of us ever wake up from it because we are fighting an intergalactic war. A seperate, less violent, slower matrix is created for the rest of us who can't handle all this action, where humanity has joined forces with other alien species to create a federation of planet. This matrix is reserved for the more casual humans.

A month after the matrix revolutions comes out, the wachowskis, lucas, spielberg, and rodenberry reveal that they are really aliens and that their movies have been designed to lesses the shock of our first encounter with them, to expand our minds to the possibility that we are not alone. Humanity can't handle it and a war with the aliens ensues, where the planet Earth is rendered un-inhabitable and all life on earth ceases to exist, save for a few people and animal and plant fauna. The aliens realizing we have great potential decide to relocate what's left to another planet, whereby they wipe all out memories and the process starts all over again.

[Khaos]

catch(...) {}

Zion is the empty space between the braces. That's my theory.

[TheBaron]

kanezfan, your realm of reasoning is so far beyond mine that i must say, you MUST be the smartest man on the planet :-D that was funny, i love it

[kanezfan]

many people say I am... of course my world is probably a dreamed up falacy and you would be nothing more than a pre-conceived response to keep me in this fantasy world. But it's more likely that you are telling the truth :D

I love philosophy, I love to think outside the box, I wish I would get off my ass and become an astrophysicist and discover stuff that blows me out of the water. of course (spam) i meet new and interesting people on the radio show i do every monday night at 7PM (/spam)

I love the matrix because at least it makes you think.

[LawnMM]

maxanon said
I don't see how they're going to end it without upsetting at least some people.

- Is it a matrix within a matrix?
- Is Neo the messiah with great powers and the true prophecy (he saved Trinity's life)? This would mean that the Oracle is one of those endangered programs (remember her bodyguard, if she worked with the architect why would she need protecting?) and is turning against the matrix.
- Was it all the dream (remember the first one where he wakes all of a sudden and then all the craziness begins?) and then he meets Trinity (who is either no one or someone)?
- Is Neo a false messiah (like the architect said)? The program may have ordered those robots to stop attacking (they didn't blow up or anything) to make everyone believe that there is a chance and give Neo another choice.
- Is Morpheus the true hero?
- Is the ending going to be "love conquer's all"? It's hinted by Persephone's betrayal of her husband because she has "lost that loving feeling."
- Does agent Smith help out Zion in the end (with his multiple "personalities")?
- Either Morpheus/ Trinity and/or Neo will sacrifice themselves to create the biggest BSOD I hope to ever see.


There are probably a tonne of other possibilities. I know people are going to come back at me with a "this is lame" thing. I'm just going through some possibilities.

I can't see a kick a§§ ending to this thing. One thing that would please me would be the humans and robots fighting in the real world (that Robocop-like robot that guy was guarding the entrance to Zion with was amazing). Although it would be a little cheesy.

One question that I have, is their (Zion's) food source. Did they ever show it or is it Soylent Green?

I think that was just a big mech suit type deal a la mechwarrior...regular guy within a big robotic exoskeleton.

CyrixInstead said
I have a question: When Neo stops the sentinels at the end in the supposedly 'real-world', he stops and says "Something's different", then stops them.

What is it that's different??

We don't know yet. :(

[MarkTAW]

"A month after the matrix revolutions comes out, the wachowskis, lucas, spielberg, and rodenberry reveal that they are really aliens"

Let me tell you of the plot of a game I played back in 1987.

You were kidnapped by aliens and plopped in this fantasy world. You wandered around, at first trying to survive, and then gaining power and status. One day, you discover you're not in a fantasy world at all, but on a space ship - out the window you can see stars. And then you discover your own body in a metal pod - you're actually in a metal pod and they're projecting this fantasy world in to your brain.

Along the way, people call you "the one" and eventually you manage to find away to escape the computer generated reality, but you're given a choice: Escape the simulation and take revenge on your captors, stay in it and be immortal but remain intertainment for these aliens, sell out the humans that are inside the computer, or take over the space ship and return to Earth.

I kid you not, this was the plot to a series of games (of which only the first few got made) called Alternate Reality. The similarities continue - you're given a spell that allows you to slow time down around you, there's an oracle that tells you what you need to do next, there are FBI agents that come after you if you try to copy the game, there is a creature who managed to hack in to the computer world and is difficult for them to trace because he's not running on their constructs.

This stuff was all a matter of public record in the mid 90's. After The Matrix came out, the creator of the game said that he'd had a discussion with these "two brothers in Los Angeles" about his ideas. Oh, and he was developing an online version of his game for Monolith - the same company that's now doing the online Matrix game. They dumped him after a few months and after getting a few good ideas out of him.


As far as Neo sensing the sentinals, think about this. He can alter reality within the Matrix, bending it to his will. The sentinals are controlled by the same constructs that control the Matrix. The Agents in the Matrix can deploy Sentinals and know what their status is, so there's some sort of communications mechanism in place. Why can't Neo communicate with the Sentinals the same way he can manipulate the Matrix?

[LawnMM]

MarkTAW said
As far as Neo sensing the sentinals, think about this. He can alter reality within the Matrix, bending it to his will. The sentinals are controlled by the same constructs that control the Matrix. The Agents in the Matrix can deploy Sentinals and know what their status is, so there's some sort of communications mechanism in place. Why can't Neo communicate with the Sentinals the same way he can manipulate the Matrix?

Because at that point, he wasn't hardwired to the Matrix. He wasn't in their system. How's he communicating? Not saying its not possible, just the reason for skepticism and a lack of a general understanding as to what happened.

[KilJaeden]

I think that the sentinels were all tied into the matrix, or maybe at the point in time he was still in the matrix, and he thought that he was already out. So maybe he had power over anything that was tied into the matrix.

[MarkTAW]

Well how do the sentinals communicate with the matrix? Do you think they use CB radios?

Surely an intelligence smart enough to create technology that can jack humans into computers and create sentinals of that sophistication can create a communications network that works somehow like human brains... especially brains sophisticated enough to see the code of the matrix and modify it at will.

My crackpot theory is no more or less valid than any other. :)

[dNA3D]

You know how the architect goes that the world has been destroyed 5 times before Neo's messiah-ship. Well, what about Tank and Dozer?? Wouldn't they too have died in the anarchy of previous wars?? I can see two explanations to this:

1. The Wachowskis knew they had an instant hit on their hands with the first Matrix, and decided to release a sequel. However, several bumps in the plot went unnoticed by the crew.
2. Everything the Architect said was BS and was all used as an attempt to manipulate Neo into "choosing" what the architect *though* he might've chosen. But then we once again return to the conundrum of, choice.

[LawnMM]

dNA3D said
You know how the architect goes that the world has been destroyed 5 times before Neo's messiah-ship. Well, what about Tank and Dozer?? Wouldn't they too have died in the anarchy of previous wars?? I can see two explanations to this:

1. The Wachowskis knew they had an instant hit on their hands with the first Matrix, and decided to release a sequel. However, several bumps in the plot went unnoticed by the crew.
2. Everything the Architect said was BS and was all used as an attempt to manipulate Neo into "choosing" what the architect *though* he might've chosen. But then we once again return to the conundrum of, choice.

They weren't part of the previous 5 Zions. They were born in Zion #6...which has been thriving for at least 100 years that we know of. I think the architect may have been trying to influence Neo's choice...he may have called his bluff when he went back into the Matrix. However, look at it logically, if you had just been told you were part of a repeating cycle, why continue? Why go back and reset the clock just so it happens all over again, why not chance it and go for broke? The human race will be killed off...thats no different than the reality you live with already.

[CyrixInstead]

kanezfan said
Here's the scoop guys. We are going to be blown away when at the end of the Terminator 3 it is revealed that this is the war that enslaves us. It will be the biggest cross-over movie event ever. Add to that, at the end of matrix revolutions, a new matrix is created, making humanity believe that it is living in a galaxy far far away, where the people that are, like Neo, able to bend the matrix to their will, believe they are Jedi Knights. The creators of the matrix throw this new matrix into such chaos so that none of us ever wake up from it because we are fighting an intergalactic war. A seperate, less violent, slower matrix is created for the rest of us who can't handle all this action, where humanity has joined forces with other alien species to create a federation of planet. This matrix is reserved for the more casual humans.

A month after the matrix revolutions comes out, the wachowskis, lucas, spielberg, and rodenberry reveal that they are really aliens and that their movies have been designed to lesses the shock of our first encounter with them, to expand our minds to the possibility that we are not alone. Humanity can't handle it and a war with the aliens ensues, where the planet Earth is rendered un-inhabitable and all life on earth ceases to exist, save for a few people and animal and plant fauna. The aliens realizing we have great potential decide to relocate what's left to another planet, whereby they wipe all out memories and the process starts all over again.
OMFG, that sounds like the most plausible thing I have ever heard... seriously!

[maxanon]

"However, look at it logically, if you had just been told you were part of a repeating cycle, why continue? Why go back and reset the clock just so it happens all over again, why not chance it and go for broke?"

If you were told all of Zion will be destroyed no matter the choice, however if you leave then all humans are gone and if you stay, the humans live and Zion can be re-born; which would you choose?

If you take the logical choice, all species vie for their survival. The computer probably thinks that since its the logical choice its essentially the only one. The mistake is that the matrix can't understand real emotion, so when they endangered Trinity the didn't realise that guys think with their ***** when it comes to women. In that situation almost any guy would do almost anything for some more ***** (haha). Therefore I think that the scenario that everyone dies if he leaves is a bluff.

If the theory is that all the plugged humans will die if the system is destroyed, then there will be 2 things happening in the movie. Either they decide to rebuild with Zion's population or they try to figure a way out to disable the matrix without destroying the life support systems (remember the council member saying that machines and humans are symbiotic?).

I'm very afraid that the last movie will be lame. I agree with dna that this is a money grab and is going to be an X-files fiasco.

I'm thinking that at a pivotal moment the movie is going to segue to an old man reading the story of the matrix to their grandkid and when the kid asks how it ends the old man will say something like "what do you think?"


On a more serious note, I wonder how the LOTR is going to end. Will frodo survive? I wonder if there's an advanced screenplay somewhere.......

[Khaos]

On a more serious note, I wonder how the LOTR is going to end. Will frodo survive? I wonder if there's an advanced screenplay somewhere.......
This is a joke, right? Yes, of course there is an advanced screenplay. IT'S CALLED THE BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!

Not that I've read it. :D But you could.

[kanezfan]

of course it is, since it's the truth. who really knows anyways? are we really here, where are we? who are we? what happens after we die? I was just reading slashdot, they had something on Egypt banning the matrix because of its religious overtones.

you know when it comes down to it, we cannot prove that any religion is real or false, all we know is that all religion is a book, a story, so why the fsck not have a matrix religion? why not have any story out there be your religion. If you look at most stories, they revolve around one central hero. you've got Neo, you've got Luke Skywalker, in the Torah, you have several heroes or central figure, but in each time period there's always one, starting with Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, David, etc...

In this sense, you can free your mind and not accept what you've always been told is the truth. who really knows? no one. i don't persoanlly belive that after I die, that's it, i cease to exist, but I don't know about heaven and hell either. Just live your life to the fullest, be happy.

Neo will come to the realization that he's still in the matrix, the last movie ends when he frees himself.

[LawnMM]

kanezfan said
of course it is, since it's the truth. who really knows anyways? are we really here, where are we? who are we? what happens after we die? I was just reading slashdot, they had something on Egypt banning the matrix because of its religious overtones.

you know when it comes down to it, we cannot prove that any religion is real or false, all we know is that all religion is a book, a story, so why the fsck not have a matrix religion? why not have any story out there be your religion. If you look at most stories, they revolve around one central hero. you've got Neo, you've got Luke Skywalker, in the Torah, you have several heroes or central figure, but in each time period there's always one, starting with Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, David, etc...

In this sense, you can free your mind and not accept what you've always been told is the truth. who really knows? no one. i don't persoanlly belive that after I die, that's it, i cease to exist, but I don't know about heaven and hell either. Just live your life to the fullest, be happy.

Neo will come to the realization that he's still in the matrix, the last movie ends when he frees himself.

Hehe, another agnostic member! :D

[kanezfan]

sorry for hijacking the thread like this..... before reading your reply lawn, I'd always thought of an agnostic as an atheist. I bothered to go look up the definition in the dictionary, and you're right it suits me. It's just most time I believe there is more to me than jus flesh and blood, tha life is more than neurons firing away, I do believe we have a soul, so to speak, that we don't simply end when we die in this form. I can't tell you what comes after though, nobody can no matter what they think they know. I've taken an interest in the kabalah though, but it seems a little dianetics like. I am Jewish, so at least it's related and i don't feel so guilty looking for answers elsewhere ;) Jewish guilt is a powerful thing.

[MarkTAW]

I don't think the machines have any reason to lie to us. Beyond the basic deception of everyday life, once you've been liberated, they'll probably treat you - not as equals, but I think they'll have a certain respect for you.

I don't think they ever lied to Thomas Anderson before he was liberated either.

It's in the Wachowski's best interest to ensure perfect continuity between the movies and all other literature on the subject, the same way it was in M Night Shamalamadingdong's best interest to ensure the highest continuity within the Sixth Sense. There will be a group of people who look very hard at your works and pull them apart.

The previous versions of the matrix weren't *identical* to this one, some even had vampires and werewolves. It's not quite the oscilating theory the universe, but close (any red dwarf fans in the audience?).

[TekGamer]

someone mentioned the oracle as being created by the architect in that article/theory...

The oracle is the mother of the matrix, she is the 1 that told the architect that the human mind needs a choice. They architect did not create the oracle. The architect only designed the matrix, the source created the software inside. Architect != source


In an effort to figure out why, he enlists the help of another program (The Queen of the matrix) who suggests to him that the minds be given a choice even if its an unconscious one, which he does.



Programming software is allot like determining probabilities, so the Architect created programs (Oracle, agents, etc) to help increase probability that the choices the minds make are to his favor.

Oracle:
Her function is to get people who didn't make the choice to stay in the matrix out. Because if they are left in, the matrix will fail as it did 2 times before. Being that the only way the Matrix functions properly is to make the minds believe they are making a choice, she is programmed to make other minds (such as Morpheus) believe they are choosing to free people and bring them Zion. But this is actually important to the Architect because if those people stay in the matrix, it crashes.

[MarkTAW]

I believe he says she's an "intuitive program designed to explore human behaviour" or something like that.

Found the quote "Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche."

He doesn't claim ownership, but he does state WHY she was created.

[LawnMM]

kanezfan said
sorry for hijacking the thread like this..... before reading your reply lawn, I'd always thought of an agnostic as an atheist. I bothered to go look up the definition in the dictionary, and you're right it suits me. It's just most time I believe there is more to me than jus flesh and blood, tha life is more than neurons firing away, I do believe we have a soul, so to speak, that we don't simply end when we die in this form. I can't tell you what comes after though, nobody can no matter what they think they know. I've taken an interest in the kabalah though, but it seems a little dianetics like. I am Jewish, so at least it's related and i don't feel so guilty looking for answers elsewhere ;) Jewish guilt is a powerful thing.

I'm not ruling anything out, anythings possible, lets just say I'm skeptical that things happened in the manner described ;)

[QCH]

Two part post...

Part One: Matrix
Neo was changed when he met the Architect. I think Neo is now able to stay connected to the Matrix even when not plugged in. He is able to influence anything that is controlled by the Matrix or systems linked to the Matrix. His ability to stay connected is more based on a subconscious level than a tangible Matrix link like being "plugged in". The final movie will be the freeing of humanity and the total release of the human spirit. War with the machines in the real world and an a all out war within the Matrix. The real kicker... Smith!!! He's the wrench in the plans of both the Matrix and the human's of Zion. He isn't on either side but he REALLY is able to cross over from machine to human. He is the Neo of the Matrix program. He can do what even Neo can't, he cannot be hurt in the Matrix and spawn into humans thus the real world. Gonna be a great movie!!!!

Part Two: LOTR
Read the books.... Tolkien is one of the best authors in histroy and NO movie can do him justice. Peter Jackson is doing a great job of trying, but even three hour movies are about 5 hours short of what it would take to bring Tolkien's world to the screen...

[maxanon]

For anyone who's interested, I have read the books (including the Hobbit and almost anything else I could find on Middle Earth). It was a sarcastic comment (or a lame joke). I highly recommend evryone that has enjoyed the moives to read the books. They add a complexity that is not seen in the movies. There's a lot of reasons things happen in the movie that are not explained, the book clarifies many events.

Matrix: The vampires/twins are an interesting point. If the matrix resets itself, and they're from an older edition, how did they survive? I've been wondering who that French guy is and what his role is? Can anyone answer that? From the trailer for Revolution, Pershephone plays a role (she has a kicka$$ red outfit on, BTW). Is he an older "Neo"? He can program and knows a lot. He's contemptuous of the Oracle. I think he plays a very important role in the next one.

Also, are machines capable of lying?

[LawnMM]

maxanon said
For anyone who's interested, I have read the books (including the Hobbit and almost anything else I could find on Middle Earth). It was a sarcastic comment (or a lame joke). I highly recommend evryone that has enjoyed the moives to read the books. They add a complexity that is not seen in the movies. There's a lot of reasons things happen in the movie that are not explained, the book clarifies many events.

Matrix: The vampires/twins are an interesting point. If the matrix resets itself, and they're from an older edition, how did they survive? I've been wondering who that French guy is and what his role is? Can anyone answer that? From the trailer for Revolution, Pershephone plays a role (she has a kicka$$ red outfit on, BTW). Is he an older "Neo"? He can program and knows a lot. He's contemptuous of the Oracle. I think he plays a very important role in the next one.

Also, are machines capable of lying?

How can he be a former one, he's a program...

[CyrixInstead]

Indeed, but I've heard speculation that Neo is a computer program...

[LawnMM]

CyrixInstead said
Indeed, but I've heard speculation that Neo is a computer program...

I'd thought of that myself, except he's got a human body on the outside...and its not one he hijacked like Smith.

[aZnWanksta]

Well, I'm going to see it (again) at the IMAX in N.O. Neo can't be a program... did you see the first movie? He has the plugs and everything...

[KilJaeden]

Neo is an anomoly not a program. They would not make a twist that extreme. I think you people might be analyzing it too much.

[edcentric]

http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/segment.jhtml?wfId=1297967

I dont know if this will work
www.npr.org
all things considered
individual stories
Monsters Inc and The Matrix

Pretty funny

[MarkTAW]

Revolutions will be about a war with the machines, but the outcome probably won't be the one you suspect. Though it should be fairly transparent to anyone who didn't fall asleep during reloaded's "talking heads" parts.

[TheBaron]

I have a different theory.
First to start of I am NOT going to address Neo being able to interact with the machines in the real world. I have a theory for the direction the story is going. The questions that have been running through my head throughout this discussion are "what was smith implying when he asked neo 'don't you see?'" and having seen the revolutions teaser, "why in the world MUST Neo destroy Smith?" My theory is this:
The architect tells Neo that Zion will be destroyed AND eight hours from now the matrix will fall. the burning question is, why will the matrix fall? there is no reason the machiens can't maintain it indefinitely, nothing preventing them from letting things go the way they are. but the architect says the matrix MUST be rebooted or risk cataclismic failure. the only reason available is smith. smith is already replicating himself at an ungodly rate. what if smith is an undefeatable flaw in the design of the matrix. what if smith is a virus, a consequence of the architects decision to give humans choice, the only cure to which is the one, neo. think about it, it fills up all the holes. smith MUST be destroyed to save the matrix, granted the machine rule won't be overturned BUT the people will still exist within the programming, and can all eventually be freed. and once the machine counterattack is defeated, there is nothing to stop the humans from freeing more. i also think its interesting that if this were true, then smith would in turn be a virus on those he referred to AS a virus.

intriguing

[nekromancerus]

*Enter the Matrix "Spoiler below"*

I'm going to have to go with Persephone being the 'Mother of the Matrix' over the oracle. The architech never confirmed or denied that it was the oracle. Also, if you have played Enter the Matrix she kisses Niobe just like she does Neo. (this scene alone was worth playing the game :D ) So it seems as though Persephone is collecting information that the machines don't quite fully understand. She is trying to figure out what it's like to be loved.

[nekromancerus]

I was looking around the internet for more information and came across this post. It is the best theory I've heard yet.

At the end of Reloaded, we have Neo in a coma, after performing some
unexplainable EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse) attack on the Sentinels that came to kill him and the rest of the crew of the Nebuchandezzar. Quickly, he mentions "I can sense them" before executing the bizarre attack. How can he do this, you wondered?

To get a bigger picture of just who Neo is, we need to do a little bit of background story, and the emphasis here is on the word bigger.

If you watch The Second Renaissance Part 1 (on the Animatrix DVD, or download it from the website for free), they tell the story of a robot named B1-66ER (the irony here is that's L337speak for "Bigger", who was directly responsible for the Machine revolution. His owner grew tired of him, and was going to replace him (read: scrap heap). While he wasn't necessarily the first robot to have emotions, he was the first one to express them in an act of
self-preservation: he killed his master and the robot-salesman who came to sell the replacement model. When asked at trial his motivation for the attack, he stated that he "simply did not want to die."

After many diplomatic and political failures, and the self-creation of 01 (zero-one), the Machine City, it became evident that humans were afraid (due to lack of understanding) of the machines, and for one reason or another positions escalated to war. The rest, as they say, is history. Now machines control humans and humans live in pods.

How does B1-66ER relate to Neo? We'll get to that in a second. First, we need to do some more background info.

In Enter the Matrix, in two of the cutscenes, we are given some very important background information by the Oracle. The first is that she was sold out to the Merovingian (who destroyed her old shell, which is why she can't remember everything in the new/current one) by two friends, but she allowed it to happen because they did so out of love to protect their child, who the Oracle believes would be capable of "saving us all." This is critical, because she was referring to both man and machine.

She also goes on to mention that Neo's in a coma because his mind has become separated from his body when he touched the Source (during the conversation with the Architect). This should come as no surprise to anyone who's seen the trailer footage of Reloaded when Trinity tells someone off camera that "we want Neo," hinting that they don't have his consciousness (since we know they have his body).

These two points from the Oracle are key. Neo isn't human. Well, he's half-human. Or all human. It really depends on how you look at it, and that's the whole point of the Matrix storyline. He's an artificially created intelligence implanted in a mindless human body. His program was "born" into a baby human, and this is the sixth time it's happened.

How can he be a program? Because only programs can exist in the Matrix without a body. Humans die when the plug between head and body are separated. The Agents jump from body to body, taking control of bodies still plugged into the Matrix. They drive humans just like we drive cars. One can even argue that the Sentinels aren't so much robots as they are AIs driving robots. So where better than the two people to hide their child than in a human body? It would be the greatest experiment the machine population could realize. They could celebrate making a human just like we celebrated when we first made an intellegent machine.

Further, consider Agent Smith. "I think something broke off of you and stayed in me." Neo's ability as a program to take over humans no longer plugged into the Matrix is now in Smith. It's how Smith is now in control of the guy who wanted to kill Neo (I forget his name for the moment. Please forgive me!). No, I don't know how Smith is cloning himself, sorry. That's another argument alltogether (or not, only Reloaded will tell). Let's stick to Neo for the moment.

Further still, consider what the Architect says to Neo in the final scenes, "you need to re-implant the program you carry in your head into the Matrix." That's because he is a program. Tank even notes his incredible ability to saturate him brain with program data (and for the first time, no less), when he learns the entire Kung fu/fighting library in one day, "He's like a machine. He's been at it 10 hours straight."

So why is Neo there? Why would the programs defend and attack their own creature, and leave him planted in the Matrix? Because he's the great experiment. Imagine, coding a human intelligence (and consciousness) from scratch. You'd need other humans to have it believe that it's a human. So you surround it with humans in your artificial environment. You're already using them for their heat, so why not allow your holy project a playground to interact and be human in? Let it play with the other humans! Look, isn't it cute? It thinks it's human! In fact, he does such a good job at being human, even the programs who aren't aware of his entire story think he's human. "He's only human," is the battle-cry of the Agents, and it's beginning to sound to me as if it's being repeated intentionally so we're suprised when it's revealed that he's not.

Why keep re-inserting him into the Matrix six times? Why keep doing it over? Because while his programming is near flawless, as a program who thinks it's a human, he can better show the Source code what it's doing wrong, and improve the overall interface for the other humans.

But Neo rejected the invitation to re-join the source code and be born anew into another human body. And this gets us back to the B1-66ER argument. Neo is rejecting his creators. Just as B1-66ER killed his master because he didn't want to die, Neo finally rejects his own masters because he doesn't want to die (nor does he want the rest of humanity to be destroyed and the cycle to renew endlessly). He is showing his creators that he also has free will. He has the choice of picking his own destiny, and this is unacceptable to the machine logic. So they are going to not only kill all of Zion, but they are going to turn off the Matrix, as well, and presumably kill all of the human batteries.

How does this story end? What's the big picture? Neo is not only the savior of humanity, but he is the savior of Intelligence. This, after all, is point of the Matrix: Existentialism. What is real? How do you define real? Is it biological? Is it life? Is the Matrix experience real? Is a machine's intelligence real? Neo proves that yes, machine intelligence is real, because he himself is one. The humans can accept him for human because he acts human, and the machines can accept him for being a machine because he is a machine created intelligence.

Neo is the ultimate mediator for the world. In The Second Renaissance Part 2, the female narrator avatar (which I think is artificial, by the tone of her voice) states some almost cryptic throwaway lines, "Bless all forms of intelligence," and "Forgive the sins of man and machine." The entire two part piece not only makes you feel that humans are evil in the first episode, while making you hate machines in the second, but it has a subtle ring that it is
being told from the perspective of the future, and if that is the case, her words have the meaning that will define the end of the series.

Neo is both Montague and Capulet. He is Hatfield and McCoy. He is the one being on the planet that can show both sides that they have the most important thing in common between them. The same thing that all sides in any war have in common: they are both intelligent, and both forms of intelligence are valid. It is the only important factor in defining sentient life. If they continue to fight each other, both machines and humans will be obliviated (the humans will
be killed by the machines, and the machines can no longer live without the life-giving heat of the humans). In the end, when Neo's machine intelligence is revealed, it will be a Revelation/Revolution, and both man and machine will put down their weapons and begin to co-exist in peace.

WHAT ARE EVERYONE'S THOUGHTS??
Posted from other site.

Then I came across this one too.

This goes deep, so follow me if you will:

The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98".

The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"... 19 months have passed!

If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that they found Neo shortly after that initial conversation (a few months after 2-18-98 at most).

Significant? Yes; I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions (which we know occur one after another), take place between 2-18-98 and 9-18-99. Here's why:

Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).

We also know the W brothers don't put insignificant things into their movies - the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason.

In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!

Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now".

One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix is alive and well in the game.

My guess is that there is no MWAM, they don't destroy the Matrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of Revolutions!

I hope this wasn't too confusing to follow.

[Camman]

edcentric said
http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/segment.jhtml?wfId=1297967

I dont know if this will work
www.npr.org
all things considered
individual stories
Monsters Inc and The Matrix

Pretty funny

kinda funny, but rediculous comparisons...

[MarkTAW]

nekromancerus said
*Enter the Matrix "Spoiler below"*

Also, if you have played Enter the Matrix she kisses Niobe just like she does Neo. (this scene alone was worth playing the game :D )

I have to disagree... Even this scene in the game was lame. Monica Bellucci and Jada Pinkett Smith, it should've been hot, but it wasn't.

[MarkTAW]

nekromancerus - great post. btw, b1-66er spells "******" in haxor speak, which adds another dimension to the oppression of the machines.

Looks like I'll have to finish Enter The Matrix to get to some of those extra scenes.

[Bad_Karma]

Great find Nekromancerus. I think that the second one you found makes more sense than the first one to the overall picture of What is the Matrix? I can't wait to see Matrix: Revolutions. I also like to see good movies over and over again so I can catch all the things that I miss from the previous ones. It's pretty interesting to the depth that these movies go into.

[danball1976]

I seem to think that you are all taking the movie apart and thinking about its individual components. I prefer to watch the movie and learn about how it works as I am watching it. I am wondering if they might even make a 4th movie based on the information in this thread.

BTW, I watched The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded out of order.
I watched Matrix Reloaded first, then watched the Matrix. As soon as they make a 3DVD set of all the movies, I am going to buy it

[TheBaron]

i've seen the first matrix about a hundred times. its one of those movies you can just put on late at night and watch without being bothered that you know everything thats going to happen