BitTorrents - are they legal?

[sfleuriet]

Not that them being illegal is going to stop me, but do you think Torrents are legal?? It seems like they are because its p2p, and the government hasn't made a final decision on whether or not p2p is legal. It sure doesnt seem legal tho... lol tell me what you think!

[entropy]

Stupid poll options :-/

Most every illegal digital "crime" has a legitimate that gets twisted. Torrents are great for many things - Linux distros, patches, etc etc etc, but it's also very common for music/games/movies/etc.

It all depends. No vote, for now.

[primesuspect]

This is a pointless question. The protocol itself is not illegal. If you share copyrighted material through the medium, then that is illegal. If you share legal content, then it is not. I don't get what you're trying to figure out :confused:

[sfleuriet]

ok but MOST PEOPLE download games and movies. Its available, so I guess its legal because its p2p... The legal stuff to download, yes obviously isn't illegal.

[CB]

Also, there is nothing inherintly illegal about downloading copyrighted content. It is only when you share the content with others that it becomes illegal...

[entropy]

I thought that was only in Canada? I'm sure you get busted for downloading as well as uploading in the States...?

[Thrax]

In the United States, it is illegal to obtain the full usage of a copyrighted item you have not paid for.

Download a movie? Did you pay for it? No. Do you have full use of it? Yes. Illegal? Yes.
Download a song? Did you pay for it? No. Do you have full use of it? Yes. Illegal? Yes.

So on and so forth for every single thing you can think of. eBooks, applications, games, comics, etc. At this time, the medium by which it is obtained is irrelevant (Unless you walk out of a store with it...)

[CB]

That's to general, and does not apply to all situations.


If a friend gives you a DVD for your birthday...

Did you pay for it? no. Do you have full usage? yes. Illegal? no.

-

If the owner of a record store gives away free copies of a new CD...

Did you pay for it? no. Do you have full usage? yes. Illegal? no.

-

Same with p2p...

When someone shares a copyrighted item publicly, it is not your responcability to discover if they came by it legally. It is their responsability to make sure that they do not distrubute it outside of the law.

If that same shop owner goes out onto the street and gives his CDs away on the corner, there is no way for you to know if he is doing this legally, so is it your responsability to check his credentials as a music CD resaler? no, you can just take a CD.

If someone is sharing on a p2p network, you have no way of knowing if they share legally, and it is not your job to find out.

Just because it is not very likely that the sharer is doing so legally, does not make it illegal for you to take the free stuff that he gives away. They are giving you a gift. You don't need to check it's teeth...

[entropy]

A lot

That's an interesting way of thinking of it. The same could be said, though, of the downloader. They could just *assume* they were sharing a legal file. If they downloaded it having no idea whether or not it was copyrighted, they've got a "perfectly good" reason to share it.

I like it, but it'd never stand up in court. :(

[Thrax]

That's to general, and does not apply to all situations.


If a friend gives you a DVD for your birthday...

Did you pay for it? no. Do you have full usage? yes. Illegal? no.

-

If the owner of a record store gives away free copies of a new CD...

Did you pay for it? no. Do you have full usage? yes. Illegal? no.

-

Same with p2p...

When someone shares a copyrighted item publicly, it is not your responcability to discover if they came by it legally. It is their responsability to make sure that they do not distrubute it outside of the law.

If that same shop owner goes out onto the street and gives his CDs away on the corner, there is no way for you to know if he is doing this legally, so is it your responsability to check his credentials as a music CD resaler? no, you can just take a CD.

If someone is sharing on a p2p network, you have no way of knowing if they share legally, and it is not your job to find out.

Just because it is not very likely that the sharer is doing so legally, does not make it illegal for you to take the free stuff that he gives away. They are giving you a gift. You don't need to check it's teeth...


That is quite possibly the <i>worst</i> argument, based on semantics, that I have <b>ever</b> seen in my entire life.

You introduced your argument by positing three loopholes in my argument, all of which are centered around legal distribution of an item, <i>not</i> illegal replication of an item. Giving a gift.. One copy exists, and exchanges hands.

Peer2peer doesn't operate in that manner. Peer2peer is more along the lines of one person buying a DVD.. Then making a copy, and giving you the copy for your birthday. You just obtained an item, and never paid for it.. There are now two of the item for the price of one, and one of them is stolen because you're using the item without paying for the use of it.

Give me a break.

That's a ****ty argument and you know it. There's no nice way to say it.

[sfleuriet]

Peer2peer is more along the lines of one person buying a DVD.. Then making a copy, and giving you the copy for your birthday. You just obtained an item, and never paid for it.. There are now two of the item for the price of one
i totally agree with this statement

and one of them is stolen because you're using the item without paying for the use of it.
but i do not agree with this. I don't think its stolen- I think people argue for p2p to be legal because its like "giving someone those files as a gift".

[Thrax]

It's <b>not</b> a gift. A gift keeps <b>one item in existence</b>, the item is <i>never replicated</i>. One copy required money to produce, one copy was compensated for when purchased, one copy exists forever..

When you make a copy, you have replicated the item, and now two of the exact same item exist when only <b>one</b> was paid for. Copyrighted items in the United States are copyrighted exactly <i>so</i> someone can sell them for profit.. Capitalism ahoy. I don't see how it even can be <u>construed</u> as a gift, because the entire concept of obtaining an item without compensating someone for the efforts invested in the entertainment you derive undermines the basic principles of our economy.

It's theft. Not a gift.. You want two of an item in existence? You pay for two items. You don't buy one, and make a copy of it.

[profdlp]

When I was about eight years old the kid across the street gave one of my little sisters a scooter. (No one else knew this, she just accepted it and cheerfully rode it up and down the sidewalk.) A couple of hours later the irate mom of another kid down the street showed up and demanded her kid's toy back. Turned out that the kid across the street had just helped himself, then when he got tired of it, gave it away.

Was the kid across the street guilty of theft? Hell, yes.

Was my sister guilty of theft? Hard to say. She was guilty of receiving stolen goods, at least.

The fact that my sister was six years old, and the kid across the street was mildly retarded made this a non-issue. The parent of the kid who owned the scooter accepted the apology and was understanding of the circumstances. My sister got a lecture on accepting "gifts" that seemed to good to be true.

Now, substitute a pirated music or video recording for the scooter, and then make the parties involved old enough to know what they're doing. What would you call it then?

[Thrax]

Better yet, your little sister actively goes out and tries to find a scooter obtained by illegal means.

[profdlp]

Better yet, your little sister actively goes out and tries to find a scooter obtained by illegal means.
She'd have received far more than a lecture had she done that. http://www.short-media.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14628&stc=1

[sfleuriet]

so everyone but me is trying to maintain theyre innconece? You have never downloaded something you shouldn't?

[entropy]

HA! Of course. Most of us have - we know how to work these things, and they pique our interest.

I'll admit it. Alot of my games and music files are illegal. I won't post numbers, because, well, they say any publicity is good publicity, but I disagree ;).

Do I have a lot of pirated stuff? Yeah. Do I feel bad when I download it? You bet. I'd love to be able to buy all my games, and ALL of my music. But I just can't. Things are so overpriced, especially when I don't have a job. And I can guarentee that when I do, it'll be going towards getting me my own car.

I'm not trying to feign innocence. But I'm not condoning doing it, either.

[primesuspect]

I used to have almost exclusively pirated software. Now, I don't use it unless I can buy it. Slowly but surely I am converting to all legitimate software. If you really want or need it, you can find a way to buy it. I don't dog people who use pirated software because that would be hypocritical.

[Preacher]

Whether someone or even everyone is doing something is not relevant to whether that activity is morally, ethically, and/or legally wrong. Bit Torrent definitely has legitimate uses, but the majority of the data being shared over the web via its swarming method is illegal and illegitimate. The poll is too broad in its scope...
Is the torrent of a copyrighted piece of intellectual property?
Does the owner endorse it being shared?
Is there some method of compensation to the person who developed the item being shared? These are all relevant questions to whether "BitTorrents are legal."

Everyone can come up with excuses to justify/mitigate/explain why they've downloaded the stuff they have, but in the end, it is still taking something we have no right too. The only reason the MPAA and the RIAA haven't gone after the downloaders as opposed to the uploaders is they realized way too late the power of P2P. They are overwhelmed with the sheer scale and numbers of sharers and sharing methods and are only "shooting the largest crocodiles closest to the boat." The argument that it isnt the downloader's responsibility to determine whether the source of the download is legal just doesnt hold water logically, legally, or common sense wise. It hasn't held up in the offline world either. Acquiring stolen goods at a bargain basement price (namely free with P2P) is a crime. The counter to all this is entertainment companies not only kept up an outdated pricing scheme, but overestimated the power of their lawyers and software engineers (copy protection) and drastically underestimated the power of hackers, kids with black markers, and P2P adherents....

"Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it - Right is right even if no one is doing it."
-William Penn

[GrayFox]

Legal theres nothing wrong with the protocol it can be abused and is abused but honestly have you ever tryed to get the latest debian iso's any other way other then bit torrent, you get about 0.5kb/s off there ftp when a new one comes out vs the 700kb/s when you go use bittorrent.

[TheGr81]

HA! Of course. Most of us have - we know how to work these things, and they pique our interest.

I'll admit it. Alot of my games and music files are illegal. I won't post numbers, because, well, they say any publicity is good publicity, but I disagree ;).

Do I have a lot of pirated stuff? Yeah. Do I feel bad when I download it? You bet. I'd love to be able to buy all my games, and ALL of my music. But I just can't. Things are so overpriced, especially when I don't have a job. And I can guarentee that when I do, it'll be going towards getting me my own car.

I'm not trying to feign innocence. But I'm not condoning doing it, either.
I agree with everything said here...

On topic, BitTorrent and the technology is legal. P2P is legal (I think), until you use it to communicate pirated software/files. I think P2P is great, but all the piracy going on eventually shuts it down. (Hypocritical? Sure, but I haven't pirated anything in a few months. I'm trying to pay for stuff now.)

[sfleuriet]

first i agree with entropy and prime- everyone does it and I have lots of pirated music, software, and movies. No numbers, but I will just stress the word lots.

vs the 700kb/s when you go use bittorrent.
I think thats a bit of an exaggeration lol, but yes it is pretty fast (usually).

and yes preacher- lol we know its wrong, and its not right just because everyone's doing it. But because everyone is doing it, none of us should be telling other people to not do it or that its wrong. One of my biggest pet peeves ever, is people doing something and telling other people not to do it. That pisses me off like you wouldn't believe. I'm NOT blaming anyone or saying that you, preacher, did anything, but just stating it.

BitTorrent and the technology is legal. P2P is legal (I think), until you use it to communicate pirated software/files. I think P2P is great, but all the piracy going on eventually shuts it down
Yes i agree with that. Eventually, or maybe even pretty soon, P2P might be STRICLY monitored/limited or shut down alltogether. Its just a matter of time before someone wins a lawsuit, or the government puts their foot down.

[danball1976]

I chose undecided because it is a legitimate tool used for illegitimate uses

[Thrax]

first i agree with entropy and prime- everyone does it and I have lots of pirated music, software, and movies. No numbers, but I will just stress the word lots.


I think thats a bit of an exaggeration lol, but yes it is pretty fast (usually).

and yes preacher- lol we know its wrong, and its not right just because everyone's doing it. But because everyone is doing it, none of us should be telling other people to not do it or that its wrong. One of my biggest pet peeves ever, is people doing something and telling other people not to do it. That pisses me off like you wouldn't believe. I'm NOT blaming anyone or saying that you, preacher, did anything, but just stating it.


Yes i agree with that. Eventually, or maybe even pretty soon, P2P might be STRICLY monitored/limited or shut down alltogether. Its just a matter of time before someone wins a lawsuit, or the government puts their foot down.

You'll find that <b>I</b> never said <i>you</i> shouldn't do it. I merely pointed out that it is, in fact, illegal.

[sfleuriet]

I'm NOT blaming anyone or saying that you, preacher, did anything, but just stating it.

I'll say this again - I'm NOT BLAMING ANYONE or saying that people are telling other people not to do it. Please read the entire post. :hrm:

[shwaip]

guns are legal.
using guns for some things is legal.
shooting people...not so legal.

[sfleuriet]

wtf does that have to do with anything? :topic:

[Thrax]

Someone missed the analogy.

[CB]

That is quite possibly the <i>worst</i> argument, based on semantics, that I have <b>ever</b> seen in my entire life.

You introduced your argument by positing three loopholes in my argument, all of which are centered around legal distribution of an item, <i>not</i> illegal replication of an item. Giving a gift.. One copy exists, and exchanges hands.

Peer2peer doesn't operate in that manner. Peer2peer is more along the lines of one person buying a DVD.. Then making a copy, and giving you the copy for your birthday. You just obtained an item, and never paid for it.. There are now two of the item for the price of one, and one of them is stolen because you're using the item without paying for the use of it.

Give me a break.

That's a ****ty argument and you know it. There's no nice way to say it.

You're right, it doesn't hold much water, and I wasn't expecting it to, but I wasn't expecting quite so much vehemence in your rebuttal either... Yeesh...

/me pulls on his collar, David Letterman style.

The real reason that it is not inherently illegal to download copyrighted material is that you might have paid for the rights at a previous time...

I own a copy of They Might Be Giants - Flood, great album. I paid for this album in a store, and have the original CD and it's packaging. Therefore, it is not illegal for me to download a copy of Birdhouse In Your Soul, if I feel inclined to do so. It is also okay for me to burn a copy of my CD, in order to keep it in my car (which I do with all of my CDs, so as not to loose the originals). I did purchase the rights, and I can make whatever copies of the data I want, as long as it is only for myself. This same concept is what makes it possible for places like gamecopyworld.com to exist legally, but that's another issue.

I'm not saying that this makes it legal or even okay to download items of which you don't already have a purchased copy, just that it is not always illegal to download copyrighted material.

No agency has the resources to investigate every download, just to see if you already have the rights to that song or not. That's why they don't go after downloaders.

Again, I'm not saying that makes it okay.

-

The only point that I was trying to make with my earlier post, is that "did you pay for it?" has nothing to do with it. The real question is "Were the 'access rights' to the data legaly obtained by you?"

The rest of that post was a mixture of digression and malarkey.

[shwaip]

BitTorrents are legal.
using a BitTorrent client to download some things is legal.
using a BitTorrent client to download the latest RIAA album that you do not own is not legal.


(You may want to prep a little for the analogy section of the SAT if you've yet to take them).

[tcith]

The real reason that it is not inherently illegal to download copyrighted material is that you might have paid for the rights at a previous time...

I own a copy of They Might Be Giants - Flood, great album. I paid for this album in a store, and have the original CD and it's packaging. Therefore, it is not illegal for me to download a copy of Birdhouse In Your Soul, if I feel inclined to do so. It is also okay for me to burn a copy of my CD, in order to keep it in my car (which I do with all of my CDs, so as not to loose the originals). I did purchase the rights, and I can make whatever copies of the data I want, as long as it is only for myself. This same concept is what makes it possible for places like gamecopyworld.com to exist legally, but that's another issue.


Unfortunately this is not true globally - Australian copyright law is very different (and very backward)

If I purchase "they might be Giants - Flood" here in Sydney I cannot copy it for ANY purpose, including my own use, I cannot have a CD-R version in my car, I MUST have the original. I cannot transfer the music to my computer or to an MP3 player, I have only bought the rights to use the medium in it's original form.

This said, I do not know of anyone who complies with this law, also there has never been a case of a person being prosecuted. The only fair use statement in Australian Copyright law is stated on video taping Television programs from free to air, this currently does not extend to any other media.

[entropy]

BitTorrents are legal.
using a BitTorrent client to download some things is legal.
using a BitTorrent client to download the latest RIAA album that you do not own is not legal.


I'd just like to point out the fact that you're very aware. It's illegal no matter what... but the little guys see the idea behind sharing/no-cost advertising... the big guys don't. I actually wrote a 7-page paper on it for school, too. Ahh, how I wish the RIAA would just fizzle away... (honestly, who sues dead people and elementary-aged children? :shakehead )

[sfleuriet]

(You may want to prep a little for the analogy section of the SAT if you've yet to take them).

ok stfu

I'm having EXTREME problems now with Limewire! I can't download any music w/o it saying that every single file is corrupt!!!

[entropy]

4. ...Discussion of obtaining software or music illegally through P2P programs is considered a form of warez and will be likewise removed.

1) We can discuss, just not specifics (your question was extremely so)
2) A lot of people just got nailed on Limewire... careful.
3) He was kidding. Chill. You gotta lighten up around here, don't take yourself so seriously (good advice for life in general, too)
4) Backstreet Boys?

[primesuspect]

Pilotwings: You've been warned once about this before. NEVER request anything illegal on this site. This is your second warning.

[sfleuriet]

1) We can discuss, just not specifics (your question was extremely so)
2) A lot of people just got nailed on Limewire... careful.
3) He was kidding. Chill. You gotta lighten up around here, don't take yourself so seriously (good advice for life in general, too)
4) Backstreet Boys?

1) okay sorry
2) omg really?? please tell me more
3) okay sorry
4) haha yeah- i was trying to DL it for my sister

[sfleuriet]

Pilotwings: You've been warned once about this before. NEVER request anything illegal on this site. This is your second warning.

!! omg no way- have i really??! this is terrible.. :mad:

haha and omg! once he starts saying something about the rules, THEEENNN you start being like "oh yea.. shouldnt do that" but before you were all in the conversation!

This is a pointless question. The protocol itself is not illegal. If you share copyrighted material through the medium, then that is illegal. If you share legal content, then it is not. I don't get what you're trying to figure out You were the 2nd person to reply to this post. Right then is when you should've started scolding me for posting something that didn't follow the rules. I don't see this as very fair.

NEVER request anything illegal on this site. and finally- OMFG did i ever REQUEST ANYTHING??!!!! :shakehead

[ryko]

i kinda think it is like modern day prohibition for geeks. the law says no, but the public doesn't care...

here's a very interesting article about a french magistrate who is concerned with all of the p2p users overcrowding his courtroom, and his ongoing battle against their version of the RIAA/MPAA. so it seems the french aren't all that bad!

http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,67594,00.html

[madmat]

Personally I think they need to come up with MP3 exe's that you can download, open with the mediaplayer of your choice, listen to once and they self destruct. Call it radio for the 'net or what have you. I know this is impossible since you could just open up sound recorder and record the song in realtime then compress the wav to MP3 again but I still wish there was some way of implementing something along those lines so that if you got hit with the desire to listen to certain music that wasn't widely available on the air in your area you could and not be stealing nor paying through the nose for something you'll only use once.

For instance, I'm a big (ok insert tall/fat guy joke here) fan of speed metal, death metal and some shred music but finding a station that plays any of that in the bible belt is as likely as finding Bill Gates doing "I switched" commercials for Apple, it's just not going to happen.

So, my alternatives are buy the music (which I do, scouring pawn shops is a great way to find cheap legal music) or d/l the music which I don't since I have no real desire to end up getting hit with a lawsuit because regardless of what the drift of opinion is here, the RIAA can and will go after downloaders, not just uploaders...they were sending out files missnamed as popular songs just a couple years back simply to use the file to track the IP's of the downloaders of said songs. I don't remember the source of that particular info but I remember reading it at a credible source.

But back on track, Torrents are great for sharing freely sharable info, legal in every respect there as well, small unsigned bands can use P2P to get their music heard, patches can be shared and save the que time for the conventional sources and open source softwares can be disiminated freely. Not to mention legal (un cracked) demos of software.