"Holiday Trees"

[airbornflght]

Ok. So im at school today and they put up a 12' Christmas tree in the new wing of our school in the cafiteria. I was taking pictures of it for yearbook while they were doing so. and it was cool. so at lunch people decide to poke fun at it and get all angry at it and tell the administration/teachers that they are offended by the use of a CHRISTmas tree in school. most teachers say its a holiday tree. I say why beat around the bush. hell yes its a christmas tree. Love it or Ignore it, your choice. So one of the teachers, mr herndon says its a christmas tree, this is america, in god we trust. i was like finally a teacher with a spine!!! oh, wait a minute...the apoccolypse will be coming shortly. ;D

But yeh, Some kids decided to bring a "Holiday candlestick" on monday. but i think the country is largely christian. and if you want to follow a different religion, then do it. we dont put down your religions customs and beliefs, so dont put ours down.

I just wanted to know if any other schools had "holiday trees" if any trees at all in thier school and if the school was brave enough to call it a christmas tree.

[sfleuriet]

hah theres this half-assed tree in the middle of the hall at our school. I haven't heard a word spoken about it :p

[Nomad]

What they should do is that if someone is offended they shouldn't be forced to take it down, just make one for whatever religion that person is. If they're athiest or agnostic, just tell them to deal with it and call it the "_________ tree."

[Leonardo]

Next time one of those trained-to-be-sensitive types is around, tell them you've got a new name for the tree. It's a "generic cut tree" (and can't even be capitalized when spelled). You can tell them that Christmas is "generic holiday number three", and then wish them a "bland, mundane, generic holiday." Oh yes, I guess New Year's Day is out too, after all, January 1 is only the first day of the Western calendar. Wouldn't want to offend...

So it's: "I wish you a mundane, bland, generic holiday number three, and a pleasant day after December 31 in the Western calendar." :D

[tcith]

My standard holiday greeting

"Happy comercialisation, of a christian bastardization, of a good old pagan festival, to you all" :thumbsup:

[Leonardo]

Happy comercialisation Yup, that's even worse than trying to make it generic.

[entropy]

To hell with that, it's a damn Christmas tree. We usually have 5 (fake) trees in our cafeteria lobby - one for each grade, plus one for faculty. I've never yet heard them called anything BUT a Christmas tree. Out of probably 700 or 800 kids, though, only 2 are Jewish (that I know of - there might be a few more), so it's a bit unbalanced. At work we call it, and it's labelled, the Christmas section (or whatever), and this is a pretty big retail chain.

I hate political correctness. If you ask me, it's one of the major root of things messed up in our country. It also explains why I hate the Feel Good System. NO! If you screwed up, you damn well deserve to know it.

[Nightwolf]

Well, at less you go to a Private school those kids have all the right they want to BIT&% about it!

[Leonardo]

those kids have all the right they want to BIT&% about it Well, yes. They also have the right to cry if they get homework, run from their own shadows, and feel threatened by anything that is different from what is at their home. They also have the right to look for reasons to call themselves victims. They also have the right to learn new, arcane ways to be offended. We are turning into a nation of whiners, victims, and girly men.

OK, I feel better.

[entropy]

They also have the right to look for reasons to call themselves victims.

I'd venture that 95% of politcally correct people, or those who cry out against politcally "incorrect" things, are these exact people.

Well said.

[profdlp]

Keep in mind that there are just an awful lot of folks out there who can't stand to see someone else having a good time. The issue itself is not usually all that important, it's the jealousy factor. :rolleyes:

[Nightwolf]

And the Seperation of Church and Sate...public schools are federally funded and can't promote a Religion or a Religous Holliday!

[Leonardo]

I apologize. We are supposed to steer clear of politics and religion at Short-Media. I'm a moderator and should know better. Including me, let's tone it down a little.





I wish all of you a somewhat pleasant generic holiday towards the end of December and a somewhat pleasant start of the western calendar year in January. :(

[profdlp]

"Somewhat pleasant"?

And here I was hoping to have a riotous and rollicking good time! :bawling:

[Nightwolf]

I apologize. We are supposed to keep steer clear of politics and religion at Short-Media. I'm a moderator and should know better. Including me, let's tone it down a little.





I wish all of you a somewhat pleasant generic holiday towards the end of December and a somewhat pleasant start of the western calendar year in January. :(
Is it ok for us to have this conversation as long as its not offending anyone?

[Leonardo]

Good question.

I and the other staff enjoy healthy debate as much as any thinking person.

The reason we steer clear of politics and religion at Short-Media is not for fear of "offending" anyone or for a desire for political correctness. The experience of several years here and at our predecessor site has shown that discussions of politics, religion, and philosophy often do not maintain at a civil debate level. Too often, those discussions turn into name calling and juvenile rant sessions and are destructive to the S-M site. Sure, we could corral it, but the staff is not eager to put out the constant energy and alertness that would be required.

Cool? :cool:

[profdlp]

Just to reinforce the excellent points Leonardo has made, it's not so much that we are worried about our regular gang of hardcore Short-Medians causing trouble. Often as not it's a johnny-come-lately who hasn't yet caught on to the spirit of good will we enjoy here who is the one stirring things up. But once pandora is out of the box it can be extremely difficult to catch the little brat and put her back where she belongs. :vimp:

[fatcat]

so its a "holiday tree" now....kickass!

i'm leaving it up year 'round for all the holidays! :cheers:

[profdlp]

You're going to be sweeping up a lot of pine needles... ;D

[Nightwolf]

so its a "holiday tree" now....kickass!

i'm leaving it up year 'round for all the holidays! :cheers:
lol, my mother makes us take it down the day after Christmas...otherwise i'd leave it up just for laughs.

[Leonardo]

We were the cheap tour for years. Finally our artifical Christmas tree started looking like a mangy dog. We threw it out in one of our many house moves during the later part of my Army career. Since then, the Christmas trees are the real deal. We just have to make sure the dog doesn't urinate on it, claiming it as his territory. :eek: ;D

[Nightwolf]

We were the cheap tour for years. Finally our artifical Christmas tree started looking like a mangy dog. We threw it out in one of our many house moves during the later part of my Army career. Since then, the Christmas trees are the real deal. We just have to make sure the dog doesn't urinate on it, claiming it as his territory. :eek: ;D
We used to do real trees, but my older brother has such horrible allergies that anything bothers him....we can't even burn real wood in the fireplace... :bawling: ;D

[tcith]

lol, my mother makes us take it down the day after Christmas...otherwise i'd leave it up just for laughs.


In my family that's bad luck - The Christmas tree stays up untill the end of the 12 days of Christmas.

According to "Tables and Rules for the Moveable and Immovable Feasts" a rather interesting book that my grandmother had, Christmas celebrations begin on the 1st Sunday in advent and it is appropriate to put up decorations and the tree then.

and I quote

"Advent Sunday is the Sunday on which the Church commences the celebration of the pending birth of Jesus on Christmas Day.
The "Rules to know when the Moveable feasts and Holy Days Begin" states that : - "Advent Sunday is always the nearest Sunday to the Feast of St. Andrew, whether before or after." Another table then showed that Advent Sunday could only fall on any day from and including 27 November to and including 3rd December.

A further table "Lessons Proper for Sundays" has a sub-heading "The Sundays of Advent" and under this it lists four Sundays. Thus the period of Advent consists of four Sundays.

Then after Christmas day the 12 days of Christmas begin, thus the tree is taken down on the 6th of January, which is called Epiphany. (which is when the wise men (allegedly) arrived to give gifts to the child)

This was traditionally the day people recieved presents and in some orthodox religions this is still the case.

Now we are not a religious family (especially with my particular "persuasion") but these rules have been ingrained by this battered little old book and I need all the good luck I can muster so I won't tempt the fates by taking it down earlier ;D

[fatcat]

You're going to be sweeping up a lot of pine needles... ;D

pine?...

i have some kind of spruce tree...and yea i figure by valentine's it be a charlie brown tree ;D

[airbornflght]

not to cause debate or anything. but no where in the constitution (from what ive seen) does it make any references to the seperation of church and state. It DOES say that the government shall not promote any one religion. meaning the government can not force you to be a jew/budhist/christian/reefer worshiper.

I dont really see the bad thing of haveing a Christmas Tree in school, and if the jews want a monorah. hell yeh, let them have it. And if the Reefer Worshipers want a magical blunt..err...ughhh.. ;D

anyway. I shant be debating anymore, just wanted to put that in their since ive been away for awhile. :D

[Leonardo]

Now we are not a religious family (especially with my particular "persuasion") but these rules have been ingrained by this battered little old book and I need all the good luck I can muster so I won't tempt the fates by taking it down earlier But whether or not you enjoy the religious significance, the rich tradition to which you are accustomed should be comforting.

[tcith]

But whether or not you enjoy the religious significance, the rich tradition to which you are accustomed should be comforting.

Yes it's not a religious holiday to me, it's a famly one and I have many fond memories of family get togethers over the years - Christmas to me is a time for children to be spoilt and adults to be thankful for a year of hard work.

I actually like finding out the reasons behind traditions - I find it peculiar that many people follow these traditions and such without actually knowing why they are doing it - many people just assume that the twelve days of Christmas are the 12 days leading up to Christmas day, not the days following it.

The same way I am respectful to the traditions and beliefs of the indigenous people here (for example after death no one can say the name of the deceased) I will respect as best I can the beliefs and traditions of anyone I meet, to the point that I love to observe them if practicle and find out their origins - culture is a fun and facinating "hobby" that can give you great insights into the human spirit.

[Leonardo]

I like your attitude.

[tcith]

I like your attitude.

Thankyou - I really appreciate the sentiment.

I do find this spate of political correctness that is emerging a little disturbing - it is not just in the US of A that this occuring.

The leader of Victoria (the premier of Victoria, I guess the closest similiar role is the Governor in your terms) has stated that public schools celebrate Christmas .. he has insisted on trees, decorations, carols and nativity scenes (we do not have seperation of church and state here) in all public schools. Last year many ditched Xmas due to political correctness.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,17309442%25255E2862,00.html

The "PC" crowd have called for "sensativity to other cultures" to me sensativity to other cultures is education - educate people to all the things that define cultures - why can people happily head to Rio or to other location to celebrate Mardi Gras por some other cultural celebration yet frown on people of a particular culture celebrating the same festival in thier own backyard.

I guess it has something to do with my personal culture - tolerance is something I am more than familiar with ... or maybe I mean the lack of tolerance ...

The spirit of Christmas is what is important - even a budhist like Lisa Simpson makes that destiction..........

[csimon]

We have a Christmas tree at work and at home ...Merry Christmas!!! :thumbsup:

[Thrax]

not to cause debate or anything. but no where in the constitution (from what ive seen) does it make any references to the seperation of church and state.

By saying that the government will not promote any one religion, it precludes them from promoting any religion, as they cannot fairly promote every one of them at the same time. Additionally, interpretation through legislation has expanded this clause of the Constitution in much the same way the "Right to privacy" doesn't actually exist but is assumed to.

[GHoosdum]

By saying that the government will not promote any one religion, it precludes them from promoting any religion, as they cannot fairly promote every one of them at the same time. Additionally, interpretation through legislation has expanded this clause of the Constitution in much the same way the "Right to privacy" doesn't actually exist but is assumed to.

Sadly, this is the case. The First Amendment actually reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - a school or even the freaking US Congress putting up a Christmas Tree doesn't constitute a "law" by any means, nor does it prevent anyone else from putting up their own religious decorations or infringe on another religion in any way. If Congress put up a menorah because some Senators and Reps are Jewish, it wouldn't change the argument one bit. I think that it's become quite over-interpreted in the last 200 years to the point that "seperation of church and state" issues actually wind up violating the 1st amendment now, because often times people are prevented from freely practicing their religion because of lawsuit threats or perception of others.

There was a local County Administration building that put up a Christmas Tree this year. A variety of different public figures from a gamut of religions backed it, saying that nobody forces the Jews to call their menorahs "candle holders" so it's still standing, and so far there have been no lawsuits from the naysayers crowd. It seems like it is often the people who are anti-religious in general who bring such lawsuits. I guess they feel that the free practice of their non-religion is being infringed upon by any religious display that is ever put up in any public property. It's just too bad that the free practice of religion gets squashed because of it.

Personally, I back up my First Amendment rights by freely exercising my Second Amendment right. :thumbsup: