Suicide... what's the big deal?

[Black Hawk]

Sorry, didn't want to alarm you with the thread title but I'm just curious. Why is it so bad that someone wants to finish life early? I'm not crying out for help or anything. I don't plan on doing it now and afaik not in the near future. They're are just thoughts. Like I said before the only thing actually stopping me from doing it are morals. Raised in a christian, family, I've been taught since little that it's a wrong thing to do. You basically get pwned in the afterlife or some sh!t. Even if I've lost faith, that part is still pretty clear with me. Now I guess most say it's lame cause alot of people do it cause of the crappiest reasons like there parents didn't let them go out or something but I guess I just lost intrest in everything :( Family don't help much either and the meds just suck. Nothing here to entertain me to take my mind off of everything. Hrm... looked bigger when writing it ;D. Well if you want to add your thoughts or something they are appreciated but I just wanted to take it off my chest.

[bothered]

I think it's a waste of life. Whatever is happening in somebodys life IT WILL PASS. When I got divorced some 22 years ago I had thoughts of suicide, my whole life collapsed and I really didn't see the point or a way out. Guess what? it changed, and to day I'm on wife number two with three more kids and I wouldn't change my life for anything, even changing the past! Everything that has happened to me has made me who I am today and almost none of it was planned. When you're in a dark hole it's grim and the future is grimmer but that's just because you're in a hole it's not how it will actually be forever. You have no idea where you will be in a year or two. Even if you've lost any faith you had, what the man said was true, blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall know joy. It was true for me and will be for you.

bothered.

Notice under our avatars? both start with 'resident' that means we're staying!

[primesuspect]

To me, as a believer in the buddhist path, suicide is just causing a setback in the ultimate life cycle. There's no point to it. Would you stand on your head and spit at the moon, hoping to hit it? No, there's no point. There's also no point in killing yourself, since it ultimately accomplishes nothing.

[LawnMM]

Its your life. If you want to give up on it and end it early...thats certainly your choice. Personally I believe it takes a stronger person to face their problems. Suicide is the cowards way out of a difficult situation.

Suicide when you have some sort of debilitating terminal illness is the only exception.

[Enverex]

When I was contemplating it was basically because I couldn't be bothered to deal with all the **** I was taking all the time. It's easy to say things will pass, but you are not the one stuck in those situations for years on end with no viable option....

NS

[RWB]

I'd have to say... I have no reason for it, and desipte me despizing the whole ordeal of someone doing it. I have contemplated about doing it _purely_ to see what happens. Not for depression, or whatever excuse many claim, but out of curiosity.

I would never do it though, becuase there are friends and family who would not like it, destrought, and all that. Also becuase I find it kind of self centered, and lame. Just so it is clear though, it is merely a thought to me, nothing more... just curiosity of what comes next ;)

[Black Hawk]

NightShade737 had this to say
It's easy to say things will pass, but you are not the one stuck in those situations for years on end with no viable option.... I agree. Some people are also not strong enough to deal with the problems and it just eats away at you.

[bothered]

NightShade737 had this to say
It's easy to say things will pass, but you are not the one stuck in those situations for years on end with no viable option....
NS


It is easy to say and when you're in the hole it's almost impossible to believe. I was stuck in a situation for years with no viable option. That's what I said.

bothered.

[Lincoln]

Suicide ties in with that philosophical question of questions: what is the meaning of life? What I've come to realize is there is no answer; I cannot sit here at my computer, hundreds of miles away, and talk to you about your life and what its purpose is and why it is worth living.

For some, it is finding happiness or a state of peace. Some people find purpose in helping others, organizations, their family, their passions, or their dreams. Many times it is a combination of things. Personally, I have found it in the love and confidence of close friends and looking forward to the day I will be able to help others in the classroom.

Suicide is declaring to the world that the person had no purpose. That's hurtful in the deepest possible way to those who care about the person, and have shown them kindness, friendship, or love. As Brian mentioned, it is also a means to an end without reason. It's a waste of potential that exists in every human, no matter what they perceive their condition to be.

I don't want this to come off as the waxing and waning of someone with their head in the clouds. I know what it feels like when someone feels isolated and purposeless. I know what it's like to want to curl up in a ball under the desk and tell the world to piss off, believing that there was no way that feeling or situation could ever be better. I also know that those feelings DO pass in time, despite the cliche, and that a person can feel that much better about themself for having beaten that feeling and moved on.

Whether they believe it or not, I do think every person does have a purpose... probably more than one. I don't mean a pre-ordained purpose from a god, I mean purposes waiting to be found that will make the person whole. It just takes time to find them, and without suicide people will have that time.

[WuGgaRoO]

u people must remember..that there r two types of suicide...one type is attempted, nothing more than a cry for help, to get attention, to seek help. You would just feel like no one cares, and there are all these problems in you...but you dont know how to deal with it, and its just a cry for help. The second type of suicide, i dont feel should happen. I mean, it is a waste of a life. Despite how bad everything gets, there is always hope for people. However, i do support youthanasia...i KNOW if i got seniel and turned into a vegetable, i would wanna die, cuz i wouldnt wanna live that way

[Mt_Goat]

Black Hawk

I apologize if I read your other thread wrong, read someting into it or wrote something that offended you! If I did any of those please accept my most sincere apology. I was just trying to help someone who once tried to help me. If you need any help remembering look at this thread and your post on Page 2, fifth post on the page. (http://www.icronticforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1160&highlight=bad+news) It is in this truely unique close knit almost family of a comunity that we have taken it upon ourselves to look out for each other. And I was trying to look out for you. You even mentioned in your other thread that you felt suicide to be wrong.
Black Hawk said:
(Don't have the balls to actually do it. Damn morals ),
I do beleive as I said, I feel it is wrong to take any life including you own. Willingly comiting murder is the same no matter who is the victim. And yes I feel for those who are victims of situations that make them want to kill themselves. But I also feel that no matter what we are dealt we are never given more than we can truely handle. I feel that we are always being tested and some seem to get more than their fair share of it. But all these things just make us stronger in the end and teach us how much we really can handle so we that can help others in their crisis's and times of need, for it is the human way. To throw a little "lite" into it I leave you with this; I remember the old Civil Defense announcements on T.V. where at the beginning they would say..."This is a test and it is only a test", then my dad would add..."Because if it was the real thing we would need an extra /\$$ to put our heads in".

I have recently finished a book by Eckhart Tolle "The power of Now" and recomend it to everyone of all faiths and even to those with no faith at all. It really helps put things in perspective. I think Prime will undertand it more readily than most due to his faiths open approach on the subject.

[LawnMM]

NightShade737 had this to say
It's easy to say things will pass, but you are not the one stuck in those situations for years on end with no viable option....
NS

I'm not writing it off. For some people, life sucks, and there isn't much they can do about it. That said, its still a cowards copout to escape the situation by suicide rather than dealing with it. You aren't happy? Put your thinking cap on and get to work fixing whats wrong.

Will it be easy? No. Will it happen overnight? Probably not. Can you turn things around regardless of how hopeless they seem? YES.

[madmat]

Let me put it this way, suicide's murder plain and simple and the penalty for murder's hell...you can ask for forgiveness for any sin and avoid hell but there's no way to ask for forgiveness for a sin that you haven't commited yet.
God said that he would allow anyone into heaven that asked His forgiveness but it's kinda hard to ask Him to forgive you when you're dead.
Besides that no matter how bad things get they can get better...I've lost everything but I came back from it quite nicely, I've been strung out on drugs but I kicked them on my own and I think I've done pretty well...I have social anxiety disorder and I don't take meds for it but I deal with it. It makes dealing with the public at large a pain in the butt but I still don't let it stop me.
I've lost friends and family to car accidents. I've lost all my grand parents, more aunts and uncles than I can count.
But no matter how bad my life's gotten, even on rock bottom, I could still look around and see that there are people that had it worse than me and they weren't giving up.
Before anyone packs it in they need to take a tally of the good things in their life...even if there's only one good thing it's enough of a reason to stick with it.

[a2jfreak]

I think it's wrong. If one is able to contemplate life to the extent that he feels it is not worth living then he is capable of doing something about it (bar those that are quadriplegic or something). That person just needs to get off his butt and make things happen. Also look @ family and friends. My uncle's wife's (my aunt, but by marriage) nephew killed himself a few months ago. He felt he was a disappointment to his family and that things could not get better--he had a DUI, wrecked two trucks w/in a few months, felt his brother was superior to him, etc. etc. etc. His family loved him dearly. Had they realized the way he felt they could have helped him turn things around. Often people get worked up (like he did) when family and friends can help, but aren't given the opportunity.

[Thrax]

It's a waste of profound value.

The self-inflicted expiration of an entity entirely unique, and worth more than self-consideration often conjures. Every individual on this earth is on this earth with a purpose. Every individual finds a path in life that will in some way affect them, and everyone else around them in a fantastically positive manner.

Whilst you hear of the drug-induced suicides, and narcotic-induced psychosis which leads to a suicide, a good portion out there are still good people who had good lives that went seriously wrong. In that regard, if life was previously good, there is absolutely nothing stopping it from being good again. If you think your life sucks, why end it before it can ever get better? Why exercise the route of cowardice and forsake your own talents of reorganizing the situation and making it better for <b>yourself</b>?

People always get too enraptured in the mindset that their current situation os far too terrible to go on. The operating word is <b>current</b>. Your CURRENT situation is bad...What's to say the next will? How about the million situations before it? Were those all bad too?

The answer to the question "Why live?" does not have to be found in God, or Buddha, or any other religion and it's deity. Nor does it <b>have</b> to be found in a theological tome, or anything like that.

The answer to "Why live?" can be found in worldly knowledge, a worldly rationalization that <i>demands</i> exercising. If suicide is on your mind because your life is currently miserable, ask yourself <b>exactly</b> what is stopping it from being better. The only thing is you. Everything that influences you in life can be changed, and the change is inside you.

Use it.

[Mt_Goat]

I think what Thrax is saying in less words is; "For every question "Why", there is the question "Why Not"."


Thrax,
Try saying;
entity entirely unique
fast 10 times. ;)

[Thrax]

No, in summation:

If life was once good, and is no longer, it can be good again. Everything related to and interacting with you can be change, so change it.

[primesuspect]

Thrax had this to say
The answer to &quot;Why live?&quot; can be found in worldly knowledge, a worldly rationalization that <i>demands</i> exercising.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Thrax, you're a buddhist and you don't even know it. ;)

[Thrax]

I might be. :tongue:

I have my own kooky spiritual beliefs, but I don't go about voicing them. I'll just say I've found a path, and I'm not atheist any more.

[primesuspect]

Come on now Thrax, AMD worship can NOT be considered a path..... ;)

[LawnMM]

Thrax had this to say
I might be. :tongue:

I have my own kooky spiritual beliefs, but I don't go about voicing them. I'll just say I've found a path, and I'm not atheist any more.


:eek: When did this happen? Have we moved on to agnostic? Or theistic?

[Thrax]

Ideocentric spirituality.

It happened a couple months ago, as I went back and reviewed my atheism, my beliefs about the world around, and the ethical values I place most highly.

It's templated on Deism, sans God.

Since directly asked, I believe in justice as the final arbitor and entity of existence. I believe humans exit justly as according to their actions, and I believe their actions in life determine their position afterwards. I've rationalized some revelations in my life, and some things I've done and seen the last few weeks that truly made me question my former beliefs of people dying being entirely dead and no more.

I've <b>seen</b> that there is something else, I've felt and <b>know</b> that there is something beyond physical concious. A complete, symbiotic totality of good and evil represented as higher orders, and through man expressed. I believe justice is the highest order represented in the universe, and as an entirely neutral entity expresses its will in both living and death.

I believe that man is imbued with the true knowledge of what unbiased justice truly is, and I believe that with much thought and rationalizing they are able to perceive this over a period of many years.

I don't believe in a god, as justice is an idea, not a being. Good and evil are ideas, not beings. But as ideas they are expressed in abstract metaphysical ways, and we are subject to those ways in the process of life then death.

I've personally been a part of events that have left me both extremely scared, and questioning my past beliefs. Events that I won't recite, but I believe to be the utter truth. I cannot outweigh these events with former beliefs which have been overshadowed by these. So to rationalize I created a new belief for myself.

In summation:

There is worldly good and worldly evil. It is the imperfect expression of the perfect totality of both.

Good is not anti-evil, evil is not anti-good. They are entirely unique, they are embodied by the qualities of the <b>Literary</b> Christ (Not the Bible, but by the values expressed BY him in other pieces of work; wisdom, reverence, knowledge, compassion, intelligence). The opposite of the literary christ is not unwise, but deceptively cunning, he is not stupid, but rather uses knowledge negatively, he is not discompassionate, simply distant. Etcetera.

If you want more, PM me.

There, I said it.

/me hides

[Clutch]

This is a tough subject here, but here is my take on it.

We all have those tough times in life, where it seems that we can't go on, or endure anymore. And some take it far better than others, I mean like Thrax said, it is only your current situation, and if you stick it out, things will get better, that is if you keep your head high and try to move on.


I have been in situations in my life that I just didn't want to go on, no matter what people told me, I just felt like crawling in a hole and never waking up. And at those points that seems as the best way to escape from it all, just take the easy way out.

I don't think suicide is the right way out, even though I have really considered it as an option.

I think the best way to sum it up is to listen to the song "waste" by staind, I really love that song, and it is about suicide. A good listen for everyone.

[a2jfreak]

So, Thrax is a new-ager. Gotcha. :)

[Thrax]

It's actually deeply rooted in several classical religions and philosophies. Christianity, Buddhism, Deism, Shintoism, Jung, Freud, Socrates, Plato, Aquinas, Aristotle, Catholicism, hell...Even Voodoo.

[primesuspect]

A2J - people say buddhists are new agers too, but we've been around alot longer than you newfangled christians ;D

[a2jfreak]

What's that got to do w/ the price of tea in China? :thumbsdown:

[csimon]

Thrax had this to say
...Catholicism, hell...Even Voodoo.
LOL ...PM me next time you make it to New Orleans.

[primesuspect]

a2jfreak had this to say
What's that got to do w/ the price of tea in China? :thumbsdow

I'm just saying that there's no such thing as new agers.. Observable, provable truth has been around since.... well.... since forever.... ;)

[LawnMM]

Thrax had this to say
Ideocentric spirituality.

It happened a couple months ago, as I went back and reviewed my atheism, my beliefs about the world around, and the ethical values I place most highly.

It's templated on Deism, sans God.

Since directly asked, I believe in justice as the final arbitor and entity of existence. I believe humans exit justly as according to their actions, and I believe their actions in life determine their position afterwards. I've rationalized some revelations in my life, and some things I've done and seen the last few weeks that truly made me question my former beliefs of people dying being entirely dead and no more.

I've &lt;b&gt;seen&lt;/b&gt; that there is something else, I've felt and &lt;b&gt;know&lt;/b&gt; that there is something beyond physical concious. A complete, symbiotic totality of good and evil represented as higher orders, and through man expressed. I believe justice is the highest order represented in the universe, and as an entirely neutral entity expresses its will in both living and death.

I believe that man is imbued with the true knowledge of what unbiased justice truly is, and I believe that with much thought and rationalizing they are able to perceive this over a period of many years.

I don't believe in a god, as justice is an idea, not a being. Good and evil are ideas, not beings. But as ideas they are expressed in abstract metaphysical ways, and we are subject to those ways in the process of life then death.

I've personally been a part of events that have left me both extremely scared, and questioning my past beliefs. Events that I won't recite, but I believe to be the utter truth. I cannot outweigh these events with former beliefs which have been overshadowed by these. So to rationalize I created a new belief for myself.

In summation:

There is worldly good and worldly evil. It is the imperfect expression of the perfect totality of both.

Good is not anti-evil, evil is not anti-good. They are entirely unique, they are embodied by the qualities of the &lt;b&gt;Literary&lt;/b&gt; Christ (Not the Bible, but by the values expressed BY him in other pieces of work; wisdom, reverence, knowledge, compassion, intelligence). The opposite of the literary christ is not unwise, but deceptively cunning, he is not stupid, but rather uses knowledge negatively, he is not discompassionate, simply distant. Etcetera.

If you want more, PM me.

There, I said it.

* Thrax hides

Ergo...concordantly, your writing remains irrevocably verbose! :eek2:

Sounds interesante though, I may take you up on the PM or on Icq when I don't have busy work to complete before I'm allowed to sleep :sad2:

[Thrax]

Atleast the verbosity is coherent. :D

[LawnMM]

Thrax had this to say
Atleast the verbosity is coherent. :D

This is trew...

[Gargoyle]

I'm really glad we're all handling this subject so well. I love you guys :D

I feel the same way that most of you do. Even if you do not believe in a diety or an afterlife (really, I'd say MORE so), you can't waste the life you have. If you've hit rock bottom, it can only get better. Yeah, it's a cliché, but it's true. It's never too late to start over. It may take a new mindset, or a new setting (i.e. - move, or try new things, etc), but in time things will get better. That's one thing I hope everyone has faith in.

I've never been so down as to consider suicide, but I can remember when times were bad. It was hard to move on, but I did. I can remember times I've almost died, too. And I'm glad I'm still here.

[Black Hawk]

Aside from morals I really don't see a problem. I guess it's my current mood cause I just feel it's something simple. A life like if it were any other thing in the world. Maybe selfish but I really don't care about anything else. I just want to get over with it...kthxbye...gg's!

Well I guess I could change the stance about not having the balls to do it, but just being afraid of what happens after. It's just something unexplainable. Alot of people have told me just to drop down on my knees and pray and I've done it a dozen times to no avail. Pretty much the point where I lost faith in religions.

It's pretty simple for me to get out of the hole. I gotta get my ged, get a license and go study. I just don't have any strength or meds for that matter to do it.

[Templar]

Much like physical adaptation, you can mentally adapt to an input. Something that reiterates a memory over and over will desensitize you to that memory, eventually.

Eventually, if you remain in the black hole long enough, you will find a way out, and you will become more familiar with that black hole (after all, a hole is the same as any other hole, right? :) ), which will make you less susceptible to falling into it again. Unless there is something physically causing you to not be able to adjust to an input, you'll eventually be able to predict it, as some would argue that nothing is truly random, but is used to describe something that seems random.

Take the mole for instance. At some point, depending on your beliefs, it was another creature. It did not burrow into the ground and probably didn't have the senses it does today to accomodate it's underground dwelling. At some point, that creature was either forced underground, or chose to go underground. At first, it might have been blind. But if that stimulus that kept causing it to go underground persisted, eventually that mole would be able to see in the dark and adapt to a common situation.

It is also feasible that someone could live an extremely lucky life, winning nearly everything and coming out of every situation on top for his/her benefit. It is also possible that someone could live a terrifically bad life, with everything going wrong and never coming out in any place besides the bottom.

It may seem hopeless, but you just have to wait until you reach that light at the end of the tunnel. If you think something as trivial as going to the gym everyday and dieting everyday is hard, you should try breaking from a severe mental depression caused by physical problems, using no medicines. I've seen it happen and it's definately something else when you look at the person then, and now.

[Enverex]

I still don't believe in anything, until I see something, or someone tells me something which couldn't have just been pulled out of thin air, then I am staying this way. I'm a realist, none of it has any realistic believeable factors to it, so why should I believe.

NS

[CharmedOne]

Suicide is a very tough topic. And I can't say whether I'm for or against it. However, a person can never truly understand why someone would take their own life until they hold a knife to their own wrist and wait for the courage to press down.

[Clutch]

Just remember its "down the street, not across the road" :) but seriously, it is a tough topic to take a stab at.

[MJO]

Suicide is the easy way out of problems.
That is, for the person commiting suicide.
The family and freinds are left with numerous unanswered questions.
Could we have prevented it?
Is it our/my fault?
Why did the person do it?
etc.

It is the easy way out for the person doing it.
But it sticks with those left behind for life.
They will be affected by that decision forever.
Some times family members or friends go insane because of the suicide.
Suicide is a selfish act.
One could say that it only helps the one commiting it.
After the suicide that person is dead.
But what if that person didn't want to die for real?
What if it was an impulsive act?
There is no undo in life.

My mother died from cancer last year.
And I must say that in the darkest hour the thought briefly crossed my mind.
But as time went by it became easier to come to terms with this horrible experience.

[astroworp]

i would say it's worth it to keep living in order to find out what happens next. you can change what you don't like, that's the great thing about life... you don't have to put up with crap if you don't want to. job sucks? quit it! girlfriend sucks? dump her and move on! sometimes, things don't work out the way you had hoped, and that sucks for sure. taking an active role in your destiny is that only way you can acheive happiness, you can't at all let youself sit back and take abuse from life.

i'm sure we've ALL gone through lots and lots of crap in our lives. people change, and with those changes comes new views and outlooks and beliefs, and when those things conflict with the views outlooks and beliefs of other people, particularly in the case of significant others, life immediately becomes a much more difficult thing.

how to deal? do something about it! don't wallow in your misfortune! find something, anything that will bring you happiness. go out on some dates, make some friends, get a dog.

things that make me happy: my girlfriend, my dog, my friends, good movies, good music, playing my sax, SLEEP, traveling, helping people, and certainly knwoing you all :).

so, i'd say just try some new stuff out and find like a hobbie or something that you can get excited about. even if it costs you some money, at least you're not pondering the depths of ending your life.

hope i've helped :)

[panzerkw]

People commit suicide to end their suffering, but cause lots of other people suffering in the process. It's selfish.

Suicide is never justifiable, but it does make for some compelling drama, like the Tale of the 47 Ronin (http://victorian.fortunecity.com/duchamp/410/47ronin.html)

[PowerMD]

THis is a very VERY difficult topic for most physicians.
As an MD, anyone contemplating suicide I have to admit forcibly against their will. They are deemed mentally incompetent and are under state protection.
However, a depressed healthy person I have no trouble doing this to. A patient in full blown AIDS whose meds are failing and is looking at a horrible slow death I can understand. Same with terminal cancer or any disease at end stage. Fear drives most to contemplate it prematurely, but at the end I honestly can't find them at fault for wanting to.
So what if it's selfish? People go off and make babies for the most ridiculous selfish reasons and that's ok.