Do you believe in a God & why? [Archive]

Thrax

4 Nov 2003, 2:44am

DogSoldier had this to say
I'm in a radical Amish sect.

;D

------------------

I believe the way I do because nothing else made sense to me. Combining elements from many religions, the ethics of Christianity, the practical wisdom of Buddhism, the worldly independence of a god's direct influence as taught by Deism, the belief in an afterlife that spans both the real and metaphysical worlds as per several religions, and then a mixture of several philosophies: Freudian, Jungian, Aristocratic, Socratic, Platonic, and yes...Sillily (Neologism!) enough, the Force as an idea not a thing.

As I said in another thread, I believe you have good and you have evil. They are real ideas and imperfectly are expressed through man. They are metaphysical, higher than us, they represent the two sides of existence. There is no gray area...At all. As real ideas expressed imperfectly, we express the imperfection in mirrors of the perfect ideas of good and evil. Good is embodied by the literary Christ: Intelligent, wise, giving, compassionate, philosophical, etcetera.

As a baseline reference, evil is not the opposite, rather its own form:

It is not stupid, it is deceptively cunning.
It is not unwise, it uses perverted wisdom to deceive.
It is not ungiving, it simply gives the wrong things.
It is not dispassionate, it just cares about your misfortune more than you as a person.
It is not non-philosophical, it is an abstract and "Un-good" philosophy.

Above good and evil, there is justice. Justice is the unbiased, binding element to good and evil. Without justice, there is no balance between them. The good would be over-good and constricting, the evil would destroy itself. There would be worldly chaos as man would no longer have perfect representations by which to express imperfectly.

Justice as an abstract idea of influence does not directly govern actions. It is a totality, a pervasive thought that all men know. Justice is subconciously expressed, and can be expressed conciously once mortal rationale is removed from weighted influence. Man must approach both good or evil, but they must not deny the other, and they must not try to remove the other. Once they approach their evil/goodness, they exercise justice as the higher thought thereof dictates.

To completely remove evil is to let it rise in other areas: See neo-nazis.

To completely remove good is to let it rise in other areas: See Kosovo.

Yes, I believe there is, in essence, both a Dark Side and a Light Side :rolleyes:. There's really no other way to put it.

Both pieces of the puzzle play out into a higher order, and must exist simultaneously to exist at all; with that existence comes both worldly purpose, life after death, beyond-worldly purpose, and a criteria by which you are judged upon death.

I believe these things because I have seen things that I never thought I would see. Things that I would never tell anyone, not for any amount of money. I have been scared ****less, I have been confused, and I have navigated my way through it.

I can no longer accept Atheism, and I cannot accept any organized religion as a concious whole. My religion is my very own, drawing elements from the perfect points of many, and then adding bits and pieces of my own beliefs to present a religion that is ideocentric. That revolves around ideas, both abstract and real.

I believe these things because I have seen them in action, I have felt them expressed, and I know they are real.

GnomeWizardd

4 Nov 2003, 2:58am

So are you saying you believe there is a god? /me is confused by that whole long thing!

Thrax

4 Nov 2003, 3:03am

I believe there is no god. Rather humanity's existence is defined by abstract ideas. The ideas; justice, good, and evil are metaphysically perfect. Man exercises those ideas subconciously. By enlightening oneself, to eliminate human judgement, and biased human logic, we can become aware of these perfect principles and exercise them.

We may become just good, or just evil. We do not sit on the fence, but on one side, we do not deny the other. You can't.

As good, evil, and justice are ideas, they cannot be a god. But as abstract principles that are above and beyond man, they are pervasive and are the primary totality of existence. They are, in effect, the functions by which men work.

GnomeWizardd

4 Nov 2003, 3:05am

ok just wanted to clarify.

And even tho I am an assistant youth Pastor No i am not going to be a bible Thumper BUT! I will be sure to have a convo at the LAN when we arent busy trying to Frag eachother!

Thrax

4 Nov 2003, 3:06am

I'm all for it man! :D

Mr_Bojingles

4 Nov 2003, 3:06am

a2jfreak had this to say
Do you milk cows while Jacob plows, fool?

;D I haven't heard that song in quite awhile. Now i gotta find it, I think it is on a cassette around here somewhere...

primesuspect

4 Nov 2003, 3:13am

Thrax: Yep, you're a buddhist.

Kwitko

4 Nov 2003, 3:19am

I believe there is a god, I don't believe in religion.

GnomeWizardd

4 Nov 2003, 3:21am

Hey prime can i have a 10 min slot for a sermon! LOL

Geeky1

4 Nov 2003, 3:29am

Prime: If it gets out of hand, I'll move it and ask one of the mods to close it if you guys don't get to it before I do. However, I'm hoping that since this was inteded as simply a philosophical conversation, that it won't be necessary.

Anyhow, here's one more thing to think about. Something my dad said to me once, when I asked him how a scientist like himself could believe in God. His response was simply "how else do you explain good and evil? Evil has no evolutionary advantages whatsoever. If there is no God, how come evil still exists?"

Thrax

4 Nov 2003, 3:34am

Evil has considerable evolutionary advantages, just as good does. Two sides of the same coin.

There's a passage in Isaiah that establishes the Lord as both good and evil at the exact same time, purveys good and bad, representing an individual who constructs my idea of the totality of being.

Philosophically, I believe this is correct -- although without the person directing it. Seems to be a solid theme in religion too. Evil afterlife sucks, but you can get quite far being evil in the real world. Same for good afterlife being great, and being able to get far being good in the real world.

csimon

4 Nov 2003, 3:51am

Yes I do believe in God because I choose to and because I can.
I've read the Catholic Bible a few times ...as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadhi Library ...I simply find it very interesting.
I even watched Jesus, Mary, and DaVinci tongiht and found that very interesting ...yeah so what if they discover Jesus was married to Mary Magdelon. Also you never hear much of syblings of Christ.
If descendants and descendants of Christ's syblings exist today would they still be in hiding? Would you blame them?
The theology of good and evil has always reminded me of positive and negative charges ...one without the other does not make electricity.
I am interested in all forms of belief/religion.

Camman

4 Nov 2003, 3:55am

Clutch had this to say
I haven't seen where God or any higher power has helped me when I really needed it, so I just live my life the best I can.

I agree with Clutch here. Altho I was raised young into a Roman Catholic church, I have since stopped attending. To me, church should have been a time that I enjoyed, I should have felt good renewing my spirit and being one with God while I was there, but, I didn't feel that. It made me nervous, I did not feel any sort of inner peace while I was there, and the few times I went to confession I didn't feel like I was cleansing my soul, it felt more to me like I was telling my grade school principal about something I had done to get detention.

keto

4 Nov 2003, 6:02am

No god(s). No higher powers. We are internally motivated and that motivation is influenced by events in and of the world around us. No afterlife.

Being raised in North America, I am most familiar with christianity. The primary values of how to live ones life (golden rule, honesty, respect for life) I very much believe in. All "great" religions have values that allow society/societies to function, we call it civilization. This has evolved over several thousand years but over time, has been attributed at different times and places to dieties. Great drugs didn't start with flower power, y'know :)

I have no problem with this, some people function much better within organized religion, their sense of purpose has a (if you will) goal. Well, no problem when the goal is productive to the above mentioned civilization.

Then there are the negative aspects of religion (too many to count) but that's not the question is it?

I've tried to not cross the line but will take no offense if this post or thread are closed or deleted. This and another thread today have both made me very uncomfortable.

primesuspect

4 Nov 2003, 6:06am

Keto's a buddhist and doesn't know it ;)

I'm on a roll tonight

Black Hawk

4 Nov 2003, 6:07am

TD_Isles had this to say
I believe there is a god, I don't believe in religion.
/me agrees

Geeky1

4 Nov 2003, 6:09am

You didn't cross the line @ all Keto, IMO. Sorry to hear the thread made you uncomfortable... that was not my intent. Just curious to see what people believe and why they believe it. There is no right or wrong answer. Whatever gets you through the day, be it Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism, or whatever, works for me...

Black Hawk

4 Nov 2003, 6:13am

keto had this to say
This and another thread today have both made me very uncomfortable.
Sorry :sad2:

keto

4 Nov 2003, 6:24am

primesuspect had this to say
Keto's a buddhist and doesn't know it ;)

I'm on a roll tonight

My wife's Japanese and her family is buddhist (Shinto/buddhist combination, actually), so I am somewhat familiar with the religion....somewhat only though, not and never have been a student. I'm a buddhist-in-law :D

I suppose almost any reasonably conscious and sentient human can me said to have beliefs in common with any "great" religion (sorry for the quote's, I'm just trying to exclude the toaster worshippers over in neighbour Larry's garage and things of that ilk) and further may even chose to follow if educated into the ideology and sees a fit. I just never have, and I have attended services at numerous churches over the years. That's actual worship services, not just funerals & weddings.

Don't apologize Hawk, you've nothing to be sorry for. Further to my first post in this thread, how I feel is up to me - yes, I really believe that. I shouldn't have added that last line, it was done without thinking it through. Be well.

Templar

4 Nov 2003, 6:30am

I believe that much like the primates we evolved from, there are problems and challenges in everyday life, and those problems are overcome with tools. Much like a primate may have used a tool to overcome a challenge, religion is a tool used to explain situations or overcome hardtimes or challenges. The only difference I see in these tools is how they are applied.

Where did the challenge come from? I say chicken or egg :) Even if you could derive an answer with a believable explanation, it wouldn't change views of religion.

MediaMan

4 Nov 2003, 6:53am

The question is "do you believe in a God & why?"

The existence of "God" provides a meaninful answer to some for what cannot be answered at this time. To know where did we come from, why are we here and where are we going is what no person has been able to provide...an answer to.

Many have used the existence of God, a conundrum in itself, to give meaning to where no answers apply. God cannot be proven to exist or not exist therefore how can there be an answer? "God" as a unique entity or as many provides meaning to some and they believe in that meaning. If that meaning brings them happiness and those around them happiness and in turn brings no harm to others then I support their belief (s).

But to ask me if I believe in a God...then which God would you have me believe in? The Buddhists may accept my belief in other "God(s)" but it is not theirs. The Christians, however many different "Christians" there are, have varying degrees of distain for those who do not believe in "their" God. Jews may tolerate me for believing in another God but certainly may not totally accept me for that.

And on it goes.

Do I believe in a God? I must believe in "something" otherwise I would not have instinctively capitalized God. But I do not feel I believe in our past or present view of God in whatever form, for whatever purpose by whatever people of whatever religon or non-religon.

We cannot prove there is or isn't a God. We have committed a great many wonders and attrocities in "his" name. We use God to further personal or social views. We use God to segregate. We look to God for guidance and miracles and blame God when it was our own actions. How can we define a God(s) for this group of people or that group of people?

How can I believe in a God when I cannot define God? I think it would be rather presumptous and arrogant of me to think I could have done so. To think that I know God and can give God shape and meaning where no others truly can. I may think that I have done so for what suits my personal self but all I have done is given my life meaning and something concrete where no other answers applied. To each his/her own.

Perhaps, when all life as a whole, finally agrees...we will not be God...but a little closer to understanding God.

primesuspect

4 Nov 2003, 7:01am

MediaMan had this to say
But to ask me if I believe in a God...then which God would you have me believe in? The Buddhists may accept my belief in other "God(s)" but it is not theirs.

Just to clarify - we don't worship any God... Buddhism is not so much a religion as a lifestyle or a path to spiritual truth and enlightenment......

Just wanted to clear that up ;)

Geeky1

4 Nov 2003, 7:18am

*slowly walks over to wall and bangs head hard, repeatedly*

Prime, you're bringing it all back... the months spent in my history/lit class last year on Emerson and Transcendentalism. My head hurts... :bawling: I'm going to go transform into a transparent eyeball or something...

-tk

4 Nov 2003, 9:19am

E=mc2: I'm not going write out the whole Theory of Special Relativity, but a big part of it is that mass and energy are pretty much the same thing. Everything that exists, exists because of energy. Energy binds together and creates things: atoms, stars, planets, trees, rocks, wheat bread, you name it.
Now here's the tricky part, we can only perceive certain states of energy in certain ways. For example, Can you look at a radio and see the FM signal coming in? No, but its there, and after the signal gets converted to audio coming out of the speaker, you perceive it.

So, my belief is that what we call god is a state of energy, or conciousness if you will, that we can't perceive.

I noticed Mediaman touched on this earlier:
MediaMan had this to say

How can I believe in a God when I cannot define God? I think it would be rather presumptous and arrogant of me to think I could have done so. To think that I know God and can give God shape and meaning where no others truly can.

I believe the state of energy that we call "god" is that state where energy binds together and creates things, perhaps even a conscious state of energy. At present, we just have no means to percieve it.

After all, don't most relgions teach that God or whatever is the ultimate creator, and that he/it can percieve of everything everywhere all the time? I also believe that our consciousness can achieve that state, since consciousness is energy, and energy can change states when pushed or pulled the right way. I could go on for hours about this, but the above is prety much the basis for most of my beliefs.
I'm not going to go into the afterlife, or a comaparsion of religions because thats an entirley different topic.

Enverex

4 Nov 2003, 9:28am

This thread = Keyboard jockey.

I thought this was established long ago, and almost exactly identical thread on this was an example of what not to post....

NS

Thrax

4 Nov 2003, 12:41pm

I believe this is not debate in any manner, which makes it not a prime suspect (har har) for KBJ.

LawnMM

4 Nov 2003, 12:43pm

-tk had this to say
E=mc2: I'm not going write out the whole Theory of Special Relativity, but a big part of it is that mass and energy are pretty much the same thing. Everything that exists, exists because of energy. Energy binds together and creates things: atoms, stars, planets, trees, rocks, wheat bread, you name it.
Now here's the tricky part, we can only perceive certain states of energy in certain ways. For example, Can you look at a radio and see the FM signal coming in? No, but its there, and after the signal gets converted to audio coming out of the speaker, you perceive it.

So, my belief is that what we call god is a state of energy, or conciousness if you will, that we can't perceive.

I noticed Mediaman touched on this earlier:
MediaMan had this to say

How can I believe in a God when I cannot define God? I think it would be rather presumptous and arrogant of me to think I could have done so. To think that I know God and can give God shape and meaning where no others truly can.

I believe the state of energy that we call "god" is that state where energy binds together and creates things, perhaps even a conscious state of energy. At present, we just have no means to percieve it.

After all, don't most relgions teach that God or whatever is the ultimate creator, and that he/it can percieve of everything everywhere all the time? I also believe that our consciousness can achieve that state, since consciousness is energy, and energy can change states when pushed or pulled the right way. I could go on for hours about this, but the above is prety much the basis for most of my beliefs.
I'm not going to go into the afterlife, or a comaparsion of religions because thats an entirley different topic.

Sounds like the force!

NightShade737 had this to say
This thread = Keyboard jockey.

I thought this was established long ago, and almost exactly identical thread on this was an example of what not to post....

NS

You're right!

Leonardo

4 Nov 2003, 12:58pm

are always the people that I see at church preaching to others one thing, then when they step outside the church, they are a totally different person

Uhh - please be careful about stereotyping. Broad brush? :)

Laws of physics anyone? If there was a Big Bang, which I believe there was, what set it in motion. Where was the force that took the momentum of zero (mass at no velocity) caused it to expand. Einstein had no explanaton for that, and it troubled him.

Laws of physics, scientific discovery. Amen. I think there was/is an original author.

Clutch

4 Nov 2003, 11:46pm

No stereotyping Leo, I was just speaking from my experience in my town I should say. I have met some really down to earth christians that were all around good people. Sorry if I was stepping on anyone's toes with my post.

Straight_Man

5 Nov 2003, 1:16am

Yes, I believe in God, 'nuff said. Happen to be Christian, many fine flaovrs of THOSE also. Happen to not say all should be or will be at any moment in time. I let each choose his\her way, and will not push mine heavily on them, though I DO LOVE it.

John.
_____

Listenin' to the The OC SuperTones right now, LOVIN' it. Like Christian Rock\Alternative more than anything else right now, but my tastes change with time. Have liked heavy Bluegrass\Blues in past, ditto OLD FASHIONED Classical (was more conservative then), and those reflected my beliefs at the time also. Music choices can reflect our beliefs or moods at time, long term single genre can reflect mood set. But if yours and mine did NOT differ at least some, world would be boring! Ditto the God thing- each of us HAS to think different in details, MADE that way. :D

GnomeWizardd

5 Nov 2003, 2:46am

Whoever said that Quote Post:

are always the people that I see at church preaching to others one thing, then when they step outside the church, they are a totally different person

Is making an assestment that he is applying to people he doesnt know. I am a youth pastor at my church and What i preach I live and thats the bottom line! Please do not include me in your irrathional assesment. Thank You and God Bless

Clutch

5 Nov 2003, 2:57am

Correction Gnome on my post: I did not make any assumption on people I did not know, like I stated above I was only talking about my personal experience in my town. I did not in any way mean to step on anyone's toes, or look down upon another members religion at all. I do apologize if anyone took it wrong.

But in my experience, I have seen too many people stand up for religion at church, then as soon as they get into public, it is totally different, I have had close friends do this as well as family friends. Like I also stated, I do know good christian people who strongly stand by what they believe and are good honest people.

GnomeWizardd

5 Nov 2003, 2:59am

No problem just wanted clarification

Clutch

5 Nov 2003, 3:00am

Anytime m8, no hard feelings.

Leonardo

5 Nov 2003, 1:16pm

I have seen too many people stand up for religion at church, then as soon as they get into public, it is totally different

No hard feelings whatsoever, Clutch. I know exactly what you're talking about. The kind of people to whom you refer exist in every organization, every political grouping, and every religous group.

csimon

5 Nov 2003, 2:24pm

I have a question for all of you who don't believe in God.
If God were to present proof of himself to the world in such a manner that everyone on earth could see and photograph this proof but not touch ...and this revelation were undoubtedly proof of God's existence ...would you believe and how would you feel?

Enverex

5 Nov 2003, 3:21pm

csimon had this to say
I have a question for all of you who don't believe in God.
If God were to present proof of himself to the world in such a manner that everyone on earth could see him and you could see and photograph this proof but not touch ...and this revelation were undoubtedly proof of God ...would you believe and how would you feel?

Yep. Even though I hadn't seen him myself, enough people would have seen him, though it may require a little more than the people just "seeing" him, as that could be quite an easy hoax to pull off.

Feeling would be a bit annoyed at having to wait so long, and him do nothing but just "show" himself. But as I said, just "Showing" himself wouldn't be enough. I would expect a little interation with multiple people.

NS

Thrax

5 Nov 2003, 5:45pm

If God were to arrive for all to see, and perform a task that no hoax can mimic..I would believe in an instant.

keto

5 Nov 2003, 6:06pm

Yup, moving a mountain for all to see would have me do a 180 instantaneously. How would I feel? Confused awestruck (duh) scared and most definitely contemplative, as I would need to rethink the entire way I live my life - not that I would change everything.

Having said that, there's still the matter of how this god would let us know what he desires/requires from us in terms of worship, if any, and what sort of rewards beyond our current existence there might be. ie, making his presence known by itself would be meaningfull but performing one awesome act then going away again leaves too much undefined. All the "great" religions would jump all over it and say, "See? Do it our way OR ELSE!!"

Geeky1

5 Nov 2003, 7:56pm

If God were to arrive for all to see, and perform a task that no hoax can mimic..I would believe in an instant.

What he said.

madmat

5 Nov 2003, 10:52pm

Let me point this out for all the skeptic's out there (and I'm doing so nicely mind you) Look at all the life on this planet and the complex electro-chemical processes involved and the infinitely fine level of detail inherent in every piece of life on this planet and ask yourself..."How did this happen as an accident?" and the idea of a god begins to make a little more sense...Yeah Big BOOM and all that, I know...what set that immense implosion rolling?
I don't believe that anything we face in life is just mere happenstance, there's a reason to it all and one day when we go to our last hoorah and take the long dirt-nap it'll all be made clear to us.
If God forced us to recognize him by taking out webspace and neon lights in Lost Wages, it'd kinda defeat the one thing he gave us when we were molded in His image...free will...that's how we were made to be like him. We are free to believe in Him or not believe.
I'm not saying to anyone that I'm right and they're wrong but I am saying that I can't see how life can be an accident of cosmic proportions.

Geeky1

5 Nov 2003, 11:05pm

Life... accidental? No, of course not. However, it is perfectly explainable by experiments people have done.

There was an experiment done by some guy in the '50s where he re-created the theoretical makeup of earth's oceans and atmosphere and stuff during the time period when life is thought to have first appeared. He went so far as to re-create the lightning storms (this is a key factor, btw) that were common at that time. At the end of the experiment, there were amino acids (the essential building blocks for life) in the solution that were not there before.

Now, I've had people argue that you cannot take amino acids and create life without some kind of intelligent design. I think that argument is incorrect. Take a random number generator program that generates truly (or very nearly) random numbers (e.g., if you know see, a seeded random number generator using the system time as the seed). Think of a number, and run the program. Eventually, the program will return your number. It may take a few seconds, it may take eons, but eventually, your number will come up. My point is that life could very well be a fluke... a scientific abnormality, if you will. A possible side effect of the process of planet formation that earthlike planets go through.

And, if this is correct, it does not rule out life's existence on other planets elsewhere. This "fluke" could actually be a consistent, repeatable side effect of another process.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the existence of life does not prove that God exists, any more than it proves that he doesn't. You can interperet the evidence that we have to mean either one.

Enverex

5 Nov 2003, 11:07pm

Actually, saying that does seem to make it more like an accident. Though it isn't an accident, it's just the way things are, like how the ink in your printer is made, things just go together, and over time we discover more things.

Who knows what set that implosion rolling. Most likely in a thousand years someone will be able to answer that, but still, you are putting things down as - Just because you don't know how it works, or why, it must be god = And that is my main problem with religion. Look, good did this, no wait, science just explained it, ah, well, see god does this, no wait, science explained that too, and so it continues. Things we can't explain now will be explained at some point through evolutionary progression in science and the general technological level of man.

NS

Clutch

5 Nov 2003, 11:34pm

Thrax had this to say
If God were to arrive for all to see, and perform a task that no hoax can mimic..I would believe in an instant.

Ditto what Thrax said, other than that if some sign where to appear that God is real, thats not enough for me, solid proof.

madmat

5 Nov 2003, 11:37pm

Yeah, carbon 14...explains the age of things but there are flaws to all things scientific...Take a fresh live oyster, kill it, crush up the shell and run a carbon 14 test on it...want to hear something funny? It'll show up as having been dead 30,000 years...nothing that we do is infallible and oddly enough a lot of the things we engineer as a society of builders are pale imitations of the designs we are surrounded by that occur in life.
This can be drawn out for days and be pointless but as I said I'm not trying to convert anyone, I just don't blindly put my faith in science considering that anything with enough thought can be proven hypothetically but without documentation on what are facts it's still all a hypothesis.
My beliefs are hypothetic. I believe that god is a cosmic engineer and a danged fine one at that.
I am not a Christian, or Zionist or a Jew or any other type of religion, I just know that God's there...

Enverex

5 Nov 2003, 11:45pm

Wouldn't that be "Think god is there" not "know god is there".

NS

GnomeWizardd

6 Nov 2003, 2:52am

Thrax had this to say
If God were to arrive for all to see, and perform a task that no hoax can mimic..I would believe in an instant.

He did do things no man can mimmic BUT it happens to be around 2000 years before this thread was started!

Geeky1

6 Nov 2003, 3:07am

Gnome, the only problem is that if it was 2000 years ago, how do you know it really happened? What's to say that the bible isn't anything more than a 2000 year old novel?

madmat

6 Nov 2003, 3:22am

Nope, I know God's there...I've had a personal miracle in my life caused by Him but that's my own deal.

a2jfreak

6 Nov 2003, 3:19pm

Geeky1: If you want to argue possibilities and probabilities that's fine. I have a possibility for you: How likely do you think it is for a hurricance to sweep through a junkyward all the while assembling a 747 Jumbo Jet and have the jet flying out the other end of the junkyard as the hurricance exists the junkyard. I'm sure you'd think that's about as close to impossible as something gets. I know I do. However, I think that's much more likely to happen that that the universe and all things in it are just here. Not here because of intelligent design. Not here because of some master plan. Just here.

Some things just won't happen. I believe with every fibre of my being that God exists and that He created man in His image. Too many things exist that support that for me to choose not to believe because I want to have a clear conscience when I do something God said is immoral, even if society doesn't think it's immoral.

Enverex

6 Nov 2003, 4:00pm

a2jfreak had this to say
Too many things exist that support that for me to choose not to believe because

Such as?

NS

fudgam

29 Nov 2003, 6:11am

I am a christian, raised lutheran...kinda. I dont believe in everything lutheraism has to say. It says the salvation is predetermined, which means fate. I dont believe in fate. I have never actually studied the bible or any other religous book. I probably shoud:range:

bothered

29 Nov 2003, 8:33am

Geeky1 had this to say
Life... accidental? No, of course not. However, it is perfectly explainable by experiments people have done.

There was an experiment done by some guy in the '50s where he re-created the theoretical makeup of earth's oceans and atmosphere and stuff during the time period when life is thought to have first appeared. He went so far as to re-create the lightning storms (this is a key factor, btw) that were common at that time. At the end of the experiment, there were amino acids (the essential building blocks for life) in the solution that were not there before.

Which only proves that the guy can do chemistry. You could take every chemical in the exact amounts contained in any living thing and do whatever you want with it, it wouldn't be alive. I'm with madmat on this, life is just too complex, perfect and total to be just 'by chance' Even on the largest scale, think of the void of space. No space, No time, nothing, then the universe pops into existance, Why? because it wants to? Why should any of it be here? there is nothing in the universe that doesn't have a perpose (sp) so why should the whole thing just be a fluke? If it was just by chance then why is it all in balance and harmonised? another fluke? There is some evidence for life after death, not proof. We know almost nothing about these questions. I believe thoses that are in awe at the fact of life are the ones that see God, I think the others are the ones that can't see the wood for the trees. I also think God has nothing to do with religion but how people get there is entierly thier own business.

Templar

29 Nov 2003, 10:15am

bothered had this to say
Geeky1 had this to say
Life... accidental? No, of course not. However, it is perfectly explainable by experiments people have done.

There was an experiment done by some guy in the '50s where he re-created the theoretical makeup of earth's oceans and atmosphere and stuff during the time period when life is thought to have first appeared. He went so far as to re-create the lightning storms (this is a key factor, btw) that were common at that time. At the end of the experiment, there were amino acids (the essential building blocks for life) in the solution that were not there before.

Which only proves that the guy can do chemistry. You could take every chemical in the exact amounts contained in any living thing and do whatever you want with it, it wouldn't be alive. I'm with madmat on this, life is just too complex, perfect and total to be just 'by chance' Even on the largest scale, think of the void of space. No space, No time, nothing, then the universe pops into existance, Why? because it wants to? Why should any of it be here? there is nothing in the universe that doesn't have a perpose (sp) so why should the whole thing just be a fluke? If it was just by chance then why is it all in balance and harmonised? another fluke? There is some evidence for life after death, not proof. We know almost nothing about these questions. I believe thoses that are in awe at the fact of life are the ones that see God, I think the others are the ones that can't see the wood for the trees. I also think God has nothing to do with religion but how people get there is entierly thier own business.

Life's not perfect, balanced, nor harmonized. If a tiger kills a deer because it was sick or injured, is that harmony? Or balanced? We arn't perfect either. There are things we can't do, concepts we can't yet conceive. We hunt animals for sport to drag back to a lodge to impress our friends.

If there is/was a god, he most certainly left this planet. If he hasn't, why the ruse? Why stay hidden? Did he create us so that he could have another sentient being praise him? I think Christianity is a good way of life. I believe it's a bit misdirected, however. I would personally be more interested in learning what I could do by congregating and discussing common/scientific/economic events. A commonplace for theories and ideas. Not a bad place for minds to expand either. Instead, the group congregates to interpret the bible and discuss what this omnipotent being does from the heavens, and that's quite boring to me to study something like that. It's all-powerful... What's there to discuss? You're there to just acknowledge anything that might fit with something this being might have done. The morals are nothing short of ideal. A model christian is the everyday do-gooder who helps people out. There's NOTHING wrong with that. If you think otherwise, I'm going to take this stick and smack you.

Christianity would rock if they used the bible as a guide to living instead of a holy symbol.

bothered

29 Nov 2003, 10:36am

Quote 1-
Life's not perfect, balanced, nor harmonized. If a tiger kills a deer because it was sick or injured, is that harmony? Or balanced?

Yes, it's what tigers do, it's called the balance of nature, it works.Believing in something doesn't mean nothing can eat anything else.

Quote 2-
We arn't perfect either. There are things we can't do, concepts we can't yet conceive. We hunt animals for sport to drag back to a lodge to impress our friends.

Correct, we're nowhere near perfect and there's loads we can't do. As for hunting for 'sport', Just because some people do things others might object to dosen't mean anything in the context I was talking in, It just means we all have a choice, ie free will, What we do about it is up to the individual.

EMN

30 Nov 2003, 7:46am

GnomeWizardd had this to say

You may said prove me this prove me that I say prove one thing wrong in the bible and ill toss my religion aside. Scientist and everyone has tried for years to find a flaw in the bible and Haven't!! You can find flaws in the koran or in any other " bible " But you cant find one flaw or PROVE one thing In the Bible ( The Holy Bible ) Infact everytime they ( scientist ) try to prove the Bible wrong they end up proving it right.

I don't see what you are trying to say. Maybe it's simply a misinformed opinion. Peter Abelard, the 12th century theologian, wrote a book called "Sic et Non" with 158 philosophical and theological questions in the 1100s, many of which were questioning blatant contradictions in the Bible. Maybe the Bible has changed since his time and all that has been fixed, I doubt it thought. So, essentially my point is -- there are plenty of flaws in the Bible, they can be attributed to many events (poor transcription, embellishment by authors, lack of witnesses, pure imagination, etc). I do not believe the Bible can be taken word-for-word by even the most "hardcore" Christian, the ideas however that's a whole other ball game, but it is silly to take 100% literaly writings that are from times when epic poetry was a form of historical documentation.

And well my contribution here...I don't believe in god. I am a firm believer in free will which is largely incompatible with the possible existance of higher forces that can introduce determinism. I can nicely sum up my beliefs with a Jean-Paul Sartre quote from "No Exit" -

One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life and nothing else.

firstinhell

30 Nov 2003, 7:54am

GnomeWizardd had this to say
I believe in God and that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ his one and only son.

Why?

Its called faith. without it I am nothing. God has touched my life and givin me so much all the way from my job and my computer to makeing me an assistant youth pastor.

You may said prove me this prove me that I say prove one thing wrong in the bible and ill toss my religion aside. Scientist and everyone has tried for years to find a flaw in the bible and Haven't!! You can find flaws in the koran or in any other " bible " But you cant find one flaw or PROVE one thing In the Bible ( The Holy Bible ) Infact everytime they ( scientist ) try to prove the Bible wrong they end up proving it right.

You have two different arguements for your beliefs. You say you base your belief in god on faith, which is defined by believing in something without proof.

Then, in the next sentence, you say you believe the bible because it is factually true. You say you can't prove the bible wrong, but you cannot prove it right either.

I went to cathloic school for years and as a result do not follow religion. Too many hipocrites. How many preists have been arrested for touching children's genitals over the years? These same priests had they not been caught would still be telling me how to live my life the right way.

You may think your life is great and thank God for that, but what about a starving kid in Somailia? Where is God there? What about a woman who was living under the Taliban rule in Afganistan? Where was god there? What about a little kid born with cancer? What about a person who gets paralyzed in a car accident?

Does your god play favorites?

a2jfreak

30 Nov 2003, 11:38am

You speak of these "contradictions" but perhaps you might be so kind as to point some out? Though, this might be fodder for KeyboardJockey.

Also, believing in a higher power, be it my God--the Christian God--or some other diety is not incompatible with free will. Determinism/predestination has nothing to do with whether God exists.

EvilMathNinja had this to say
I don't see what you are trying to say. Maybe it's simply a misinformed opinion. Peter Abelard, the 12th century theologian, wrote a book called "Sic et Non" with 158 philosophical and theological questions in the 1100s, many of which were questioning blatant contradictions in the Bible. Maybe the Bible has changed since his time and all that has been fixed, I doubt it thought. So, essentially my point is -- there are plenty of flaws in the Bible, they can be attributed to many events (poor transcription, embellishment by authors, lack of witnesses, pure imagination, etc). I do not believe the Bible can be taken word-for-word by even the most "hardcore" Christian, the ideas however that's a whole other ball game, but it is silly to take 100% literaly writings that are from times when epic poetry was a form of historical documentation.

And well my contribution here...I don't believe in god. I am a firm believer in free will which is largely incompatible with the possible existance of higher forces that can introduce determinism. I can nicely sum up my beliefs with a Jean-Paul Sartre quote from "No Exit" -

There are many definitions of faith. You take one possible definition to try to strengthen your argument. Perhaps I'll enumerate various meanings of faith.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

firstinhell had this to say
You have two different arguements for your beliefs. You say you base your belief in god on faith, which is defined by believing in something without proof.

Many parts of the Bible have been proven to be true/accurate. The parts that are yet to be proven are just that--yet to be proven. Prove to me you exist and aren't just a figment of my imagination . . . a character in a dream of mine. You can sometimes take things a bit too far in requiring proof. You can make it so that the only thing "acceptable" as "proof" would be Jesus Himself stepping off his white horse and speaking to you. Well, one day it will happen, that will be your proof, I guess.

Then, in the next sentence, you say you believe the bible because it is factually true. You say you can't prove the bible wrong, but you cannot prove it right either.

What does this have to do with whether or not God exists or the Bible is true?

I went to cathloic school for years and as a result do not follow religion. Too many hipocrites. How many preists have been arrested for touching children's genitals over the years? These same priests had they not been caught would still be telling me how to live my life the right way.

God is no respecter of persons. What seems so major to you is not major to God. You can trade all of your nothing for all of His everything and join Him in Heaven. We're on earth but a short while, and even if people are suffering on earth it's as if its just a fleeting moment in the grand scheme of things. Besides, God often lets us go through trials so that we may have a greater understanding of things. Sometimes He intervenes and sometimes He doesn't. God works in mysterious ways. His ways are higher than ours and we cannot comprehend them.

You may think your life is great and thank God for that, but what about a starving kid in Somailia? Where is God there? What about a woman who was living under the Taliban rule in Afganistan? Where was god there? What about a little kid born with cancer? What about a person who gets paralyzed in a car accident?

Does your god play favorites?

This might be my last post in this thread because it seems to have turned away from the original intent and now is going off into the "God believers cannot be correct and hence must be poked fun of . . . though they dare not tell me there is a God because I don't want to hear it and that would mean they're pushing their faith on me and I can't have that, though I'll definitely push my faith--atheism--on them." In other words: If you want to continue this debate, see me at KeyboardJockey. I'll be happy to engage anyone in an intelligent conversation. So long as you respect my beliefs I will show equal respect for yours.

Shorty

30 Nov 2003, 12:32pm

This thread will be closed if the more "debate" level conversations don't get taken to KJ.. use it, it's what it's there for :)

I don't want to get all "moderator" on you.. so lets drop the "believer vs non-believer" convos. You believe what you believe and thats it. End of story... and we all know you would never agree to disagree.

Im a former "believer" for very good reasons, which I don't care to share even though I have done in the past. However, one of my best friends is a youth pastor and a very strong believer and yet Im the complete reverse. Proves some can live and let live... you guys should try it.

You know the thoughts we all have on debating here, so take it to keyboard jockey if you wanna argue the point over it ;)

Thrax

30 Nov 2003, 1:43pm

...

Straight_Man

30 Nov 2003, 2:02pm

Well, we each find our balance differently. Some, I among them, believe that God made us individuals. And that he cared enough to do so. EVEN each animal has a collective reaction pattern that yeilds an individual. Thus, looking at this I find myself thinking that God does care, but that the whole is mnore important than the single part-- and the whole is huge. I am something, but if I contribute more to the whole than I take away THEN there comes reward. I worship God and am in awe of Him, but know that as each of us are individuals we each will inside be different as to how we attempt to piece together a puzzle of why things are as they are. And I believe that to a degree this was meant to be so. the Bible, and most religions, have this in common-- we must follow that which we yearn for to achieve greatness, but need to not superimpose our OWN beliefs on others as our egos are not the most important thing in a hypercomplex world which no one of us could even begin to balance andf maintain much less bring into being in the first place.

I think and hope and pray that each of us will think on single ego versus whole, and the whole collection of us versus each alone playing island in a huge river of place and time. If we each try to stand alone, we each get eroded away by the river both emotionally and physically. If we simply let live, we find contradictions. If we find a balance between the two, and a sense of whole, we find we will succeed better.

That is the core, self versu whole. We have to keep our sense of self, that is innate in us. We have to have goals and dreams, but if we balance our actions more toward the goals of the whole we find harmony OVERALL. Look for what is common, and do not allow the misapprehension that one can change all totally lead to self-pride to excess.

Some are made more thinkers, others are made more physical doers. Some find a balance and are more well-rounded as the saying goes. Trick is not to let despair cause self-destruction, because as each we can be our own enemies if we try to be islands teaching only what we each think is right without taking other points of view into account and leanr to integrate them in to a large degree. Part of that trick is to get along, let each not judge the other to condemnation and not hyperpush our own POV on others, while teaching that which is commonly agreeable to many to all we meet. Simultaneously, we cannot react in a knee-jerk condemnation, because as parts we each see part and not a perfect whole.

Some will say this is for keyboard jockey, I will simply say that fragmenting and attempts to fragment lead to self-fragementation. Thus I present and am happy when others find some part that helps, knowing each will take probbaly a different part and grasp it. Because inside each IS different and has had different fights inside in each ones own life. We need not lash out, because in the lashing out we hurt ourselves as much as if not more than others. Instead, we should reach but not push.

John.

Shorty

30 Nov 2003, 2:35pm

Thrax had this to say
< :snip :>

As you can see I care :)

Thrax

30 Nov 2003, 2:42pm

That wasn't directed at you.

Shorty

30 Nov 2003, 2:44pm

Thrax had this to say
That wasn't directed at you.

I know ;)

That was a comment to echo your thought ;)

Enverex

30 Nov 2003, 2:49pm

"When did I realise I was god? Well one night I was praying and I realised I was talking to myself" ;)

NS

profdlp

30 Nov 2003, 3:28pm

Do you believe in a God & why?
Yes, based on faith and faith alone.

Trying to explain ones religious beliefs based on the available (man-made) science of the day is like trying to explain the existence of an Opteron using an abacus as an example. There is some correlation, but you'll never make a comprehensive case for it based on that evidence alone.

To my friends on every side (that's ALL of you :wave: ) I would ask you to remember that we are all individuals. Ask any two people to describe the same event and you'll get two different (sometimes very different) stories. Compare the "Christmas Story" from Luke to that in Matthew, for instance.

Rather than discussing Science or Philosophy for hours on end (topics which "scientists" and philosophers" can't even agree on), I encourage my friends to spend a little time each day asking themselves the question:

"What do I really believe in?"

People can never be truly convinced of anything, until they convince themselves.

EyesOnly

30 Nov 2003, 5:30pm

I don't belive in god because it's said that he cares about people and i haven't seen much of that in my life. 14 years ago when i was 9 my father died. The medical reason is simple, he smoked and his heart stopped. But if god existed why didn't he save my dad by for instance making sure that he stopped smoking.

And fate, that everything is following some sort of plan. No thanks because i don't like what that plan has to say about my life. Why did i deserve to get harrased in school, which has giving me a serious depression and made me incabable of enjoing myself an ways other than materilistic.

Ok i'll stop ranting but as the threadstarter said do not force anyone to belive or not so i won't. Just my 2 �re. BTW am i the only one having trouble getting to keyboardjockey.com. I'm on opera but tried ie with no success. What's the exact adress. I'll try another day incase the server is busy.

firstinhell

30 Nov 2003, 7:01pm

Ummm......I can't go to keyboardjockey...keyboardjockey is borked. It seems to have been that way for sometime now.

If we cannot have a debate then what is the point of this thread? I was not the one that brought the issue up, other people seem to come across as elitist with their views. They seem to feel that they are right above anyone else. I was expressing my thoughts to the contrary.

Other people have expressed their views, but since my post was not laced with blatant ass kissing, I get threatened to be moderated.

I think people saying anything I (and others) said is "off-topic" is a little too hasty, maybe it is just because some of what was said is going againt the grain and may spark a :eek2: debate :eek2:. I think any topics that I brought up were either

1. a logical extension of the topic.
2. in response to something that was said.

Let's call a spade a spade. Sorry for messing up the little utopia you have going on here.

firstinhell

30 Nov 2003, 7:09pm

EyesOnly had this to say
I don't belive in god because it's said that he cares about people and i haven't seen much of that in my life. 14 years ago when i was 9 my father died. The medical reason is simple, he smoked and his heart stopped. But if god existed why didn't he save my dad by for instance making sure that he stopped smoking.

And fate, that everything is following some sort of plan. No thanks because i don't like what that plan has to say about my life. Why did i deserve to get harrased in school, which has giving me a serious depression and made me incabable of enjoing myself an ways other than materilistic.

Ok i'll stop ranting but as the threadstarter said do not force anyone to belive or not so i won't. Just my 2 �re. BTW am i the only one having trouble getting to keyboardjockey.com. I'm on opera but tried ie with no success. What's the exact adress. I'll try another day incase the server is busy.

You are not alone in what you think. Believe it or not, some expierences in my life have been similiar to what you said and have raised the same questions you have. Don't be cornered into thinking you have to follow everyone else and be "accepted". Most of the people giving you a hard time feel worse about themselves than you can imagine (otherwise they would not be screwing with you).

Just be glad you are not them. No matter how miserable you are, these morons are probably 10X more miserable, that is why they have to mess with others to make themselves fell better about themselves. I know it sounds cliched, but it is more true than you can imagine.

Set your own path dude and live your life the way you want to. Antagonizers do not win unless you let them get to you.

cheers :wave:

Shorty

30 Nov 2003, 7:15pm

firstinhell had this to say
Ummm......I can't go to keyboardjockey...keyboardjockey is borked. It seems to have been that way for sometime now.

If we cannot have a debate then what is the point of this thread? I was not the one that brought the issue up, other people seem to come across as elitist with their views. They seem to feel that they are right above anyone else. I was expressing my thoughts to the contrary.

Other people have expressed their views, but since my post was not laced with blatant ass kissing, I get threatened to be moderated.

I think people saying anything I (and others) said is "off-topic" is a little too hasty, maybe it is just because some of what was said is going againt the grain and may spark a :eek2: debate :eek2:. I think any topics that I brought up were either

1. a logical extension of the topic.
2. in response to something that was said.

Let's call a spade a spade. Sorry for messing up the little utopia you have going on here.

My comments were to all posting in this thread as it has taken a significant turn in to a debate direction ;) Simple when you read all the thread.

We asked for no debate. Don't like it? Sorry but that's the rule. That's why keyboard jockey exists. It's down but it will be back ;)

However...

"Set your own path dude and live your life the way you want to."

Is not debate but a damn good answer. I totally agree with you. Follow your heart and mind as you see fit. If you aren't hurting anyone, it doesn't matter what you believe in :)

primesuspect

30 Nov 2003, 7:39pm

weird.. keyboardjockey.com's frontpage doesn't load, but if you go to www.keyboardjockey.com/forums/ it works.....

/me goes off to look

profdlp

30 Nov 2003, 8:56pm

firstinhell had this to say
If we cannot have a debate then what is the point of this thread? I was not the one that brought the issue up, other people seem to come across as elitist with their views. They seem to feel that they are right above anyone else. I was expressing my thoughts to the contrary.

Other people have expressed their views, but since my post was not laced with blatant ass kissing, I get threatened to be moderated.
The point of the thread is not to debate the possible existence of God, but rather to allow people to give their own take on "Do you believe in a God & why?"

The difference lies in expressing ones own views, and challenging the views of others. Based on your own posts, it is obvious where you disagree with others, but it is not entirely clear where you stand on the issue yourself.

I do not believe that any attempt at moderating this thread has been targeted at you. Go back to the very beginning (long before you posted) and you'll see that this thread has been closely watched from the beginning. Plain & simple, this is a place to express ideas, not to attack the ideas of others. Your ideas are as welcome as anyone's.

It was my post which was labelled "On Topic". That was a gentle nudge to try and get things back to the question posed in the title of the thread. If anyone thinks I was specifically referring to them I apologize. I think it is an interesting question, and I am curious as to where the other members stand on the subject. I have a lot less interest in knowing specifically where individual members may part ways.
:wave: :)

firstinhell

30 Nov 2003, 8:58pm

profdlp had this to say
firstinhell had this to say
If we cannot have a debate then what is the point of this thread? I was not the one that brought the issue up, other people seem to come across as elitist with their views. They seem to feel that they are right above anyone else. I was expressing my thoughts to the contrary.

Other people have expressed their views, but since my post was not laced with blatant ass kissing, I get threatened to be moderated.
The point of the thread is not to debate the possible existence of God, but rather to allow people to give their own take on "Do you believe in a God & why?"

The difference lies in expressing ones own views, and challenging the views of others. Based on your own posts, it is obvious where you disagree with others, but it is not entirely clear where you stand on the issue yourself.

I do not believe that any attempt at moderating this thread has been targeted at you. Go back to the very beginning (long before you posted) and you'll see that this thread has been closely watched from the beginning. Plain & simple, this is a place to express ideas, not to attack the ideas of others. Your ideas are as welcome as anyone's.

It was my post which was labelled "On Topic". That was a gentle nudge to try and get things back to the question posed in the title of the thread. If anyone thinks I was specifically referring to them I apologize. I think it is an interesting question, and I am curious as to where the other members stand on the subject. I have a lot less interest in knowing where individual members may part ways.
:wave: :)

profdlp

30 Nov 2003, 9:05pm

I'm off to watch the 4:00 football game.

Have a good afternoon! :)

EyesOnly

30 Nov 2003, 9:41pm

Thanks for the encouragement i'll try to get my life back on track. About this thread it seems to stay mostly on track considering what we are discussing even though some posts can be a little to targeted on induviduals. Let's all just try not to let the heat up and think carefully before we type since what we think is private but what we type can be read and possible missunderstood by everyone.

Glad i'm not the only one having trouble with keyboardjockey. The forums link worked though.

RADA

1 Dec 2003, 4:44pm

I call myself a agnostic-atheist. I keep an open mind about new ideas and information, but like some of you, find organized religion hard to deal with. Being extremely analitical, I personally lean toward the evolutionary over the creationary.

I mean no disrespect to anybody here, with my above statement. One of my best friends is a Born-Again-Christian. I value his friendship and opinion. We have some wonderfully deep theological conversations. All of our discussions are prefaced by the profound respect we have for each other. He doesn't try to convert me, and I don't try to subvert his beliefs. It's quite refreshing.

I grew up Protestant-Catholic, I read the bible from cover to cover. I, like some others here, NEVER felt comfortable in a church. The way the priests talked, I always felt like "GOD" was a babysitter for adults.

I don't want to offend anybody here at SM, I am really impressed with the people that post here. So I'll end by saying I just go about my daily routines, trying to help where I can, being the best person I can be, without a need for a religious backing.

Hope I didn't offend anybody,

Sincerely,

-RADA-

Leonardo

1 Dec 2003, 5:04pm

I personally lean toward the evolutionary over the creationary

Not all Christians believe those two terms are mutually exclusive. I for one, believe that creation was accomplished through evolution. There is a huge divergence between different Christian faiths over what is to be interpreted literally versus contextually in the Bible.

Geeky1

1 Dec 2003, 5:13pm

RADA, I (for one) don't see anything offensive about your post at all.

We have some wonderfully deep theological conversations. All of our discussions are prefaced by the profound respect we have for each other. He doesn't try to convert me, and I don't try to subvert his beliefs. It's quite refreshing.

That's what I was trying to do with this thread, and it seems to be working. In my experience, the members here (at least the ones that choose to stick around) seem to have an incredible amount of respect for one another, and have no problems with maintaining the kind of atmosphere you were talking about.

Anyhow, regarding creation vs. evolution

I, as I stated, support evolution. HOWEVER, I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible for a higher intelligence of some sort to have "seeded", if you will, the earth, and let evolution progress from there.

csimon

1 Dec 2003, 5:29pm

Leonardo had this to say
I personally lean toward the evolutionary over the creationary

Not all Christians believe those two terms are mutually exclusive. I for one, believe that creation was accomplished through evolution. There is a huge divergence between different Christian faiths over what is to be interpreted literally versus contextually in the Bible. the Catholic church does not teach the literal translation of the bible ...the Fundamentalist Christians may typically rely on a literal translation ...that is one area where these two sects of Christianity differ.

RADA

1 Dec 2003, 5:35pm

One of the conversations I had with my friend was just that. He, of course, believes in creationism. I believe in evolution. I posed a question to him about "evolutionary creationism". The seeding of life throughout our universe. It is one of our favorite conversional debates.

csimon

1 Dec 2003, 6:29pm

yes ...the subject of creationism vs evolutionism makes a great topic. It's great when we can agree to disagree and yet find a happy medium.

firstinhell

1 Dec 2003, 9:03pm

RADA had this to say

I mean no disrespect to anybody here, with my above statement. One of my best friends is a Born-Again-Christian. I value his friendship and opinion.

Don't worry about the disrespect. Someone I know is a Christian and I value neither his friendship nor his opinion.

Geeky1

1 Dec 2003, 10:58pm

firstinhell:

That is exactly the kind of post that no one needs or wants. Please do not try to turn this into a "flame war".

Thank you.

Thrax

1 Dec 2003, 11:04pm

Indeed.

If such tripe is to continue, I'm positive we can make sure any further attempts are fruitless.

Shorty

1 Dec 2003, 11:16pm

Should I delete it, should I edit?

Should I care? Should we all care?

I notice something "firstinhell". Checking your.. err.. "posts"..

http://www.short-media.com/forum/search.php?action=showresults&searchid=65187

Grim reading. You actually haven't done anything but attempt (poorly I might add) to instigate agressive responses...

and.. oooooooo

http://www.short-media.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=73250#post73250

Hmm.. oooooookkk..

Perhaps tis best if we just ignore you and then you will crawl back under the rock from which you came :D

What do ya say there ?

LawnMM

1 Dec 2003, 11:29pm

RADA had this to say
I call myself a agnostic-atheist.

Thats like calling yourself a catholic-jew...

Atheists believe there is no god, no supreme being, nothing supernatural going on. Agnostic's don't know one way or the other, they don't believe there's enough info to support either.

If you're agnostic, you don't know. If you're an atheist, there is no god. I don't see how you can believe there is no god but not be sure...

Call yourself open minded! :D

Thrax

1 Dec 2003, 11:31pm

I think he meant atheist/agnostic, which means he's kind of up in the air about strict nontheism, and possible theism.

LawnMM

2 Dec 2003, 4:01am

Mayhaps, still kinda :wtf: :scratch: though...

MoTHA_NaTuRE

2 Dec 2003, 4:39am

i personally have a short attention, so i didnt read this thread all the way thru, you know, maybe part way thru...

but i see this thread is about God.

this is how i view this, again, this is my opinion, and please try not to start a debate on this.

I personally believe there is a God. maybe it is because i've been raised with this belief eversince the age of 3.

science attempts to debunk creationism thru means of evolution and carbon dating with half-lives etc.etc.

be it as it may, just look at it at this simplistic matter. im not going to go deep into christianity and turn people off or turn people on to it.

but lets say if there is a heaven and hell. and believing in God is what will save you from that hell and take you to the majestic heaven. what do you have to lose in believing in God.

if you believe and there is a heaven and hell, you goto heaven. if you dont and there is a heaven and hell, you goto hell.

now, lets say there is no heaven and hell. you believe in God, you go nowhere. you don't, you go nowhere. just disappear, death, right?

lets say if heaven and hell exists or not is 50/50%

so why risk a 50% chance of going to hell for not believing. what do you have to lose in believing. pride? time? just believe there is a God.

i personally don't want to see any one of you here in beloved short-media goto hell. you guys help me so much :p

that's my view, my opinion, thank you for reading

Geeky1

2 Dec 2003, 6:40am

MoTHA_NaTuRE: you hit the nail on the head. Time. 1.25hrs/week in church (for some reason, they can never finish it on time), over the course of say, 60 years adds up to 162.5 DAYS of time spent in church. That's a hell of a lot of time. Roughly 6 months, in fact.

Personally, I don't know whether there's a God or not. I just try to live my life as best I can, and hope that it's good enough should I need to justify my actions to a higher intelligence of some kind after I die.

MoTHA_NaTuRE

2 Dec 2003, 7:12am

exactly, geeky1, just do the best you can

im not going into detail or anything, remember, even christianity have different denominations, and divisions, where there are different ways of belief

but the basis of all christianity is just to believe in God. that's it. All these Christians want you to do is to simply believe.

good works will not get you to heaven, going to church 24/7 will not get you to heaven, preaching and annoying the crap outta people will not get you to heaven.

Just simply believe there is a God, you can continue on with your life the way it is.

this is the hard part most people cannot do, they simply cannot believe.

they hate to look up and imagine that there is something governing everything, there is a God that created everything, there is a greater being, greater authority up there.

the belief of God takes away their freedom, their ability to think of other possibilities, it restricts free thinking, especially scientifically, they do not one a separate authority basically. kind of hard to explain

but really, all this good works and stuff is unnecessary, but maybe if you believe, somehow you might change your ways, the stuff you do, just the effect of believing in God on your life.

anyways, everybody have their own free will, own free mind to do what they think is best for them.

im not trying to be some Bible preacher, but really, you know, whatever floats your boat, whichever side of the bed you get out of, etc.

this is not an easy topic, very uncomfortable thread for a lot of people

Geeky1

2 Dec 2003, 7:30am

very uncomfortable thread for a lot of people

;D

That tells me I'm doing something right... not because I set out with the intent of making people uncomfortable, but because rocking the boat a bit every once in a while is good for everyone in said boat.

The U.S. is a good example, actually. We've become so complacent, so passive, so "fat, dumb, and happy", as some people have put it, since the 1950s or so, that we're moving (economically speaking) dangerously close to socialism. The U.S. government and economy today is far, far different from what the founders of the country set up. No one is allowed to "rock the boat" by reversing this trend towards a more socialistic economy, because individuals don't have a big enough audience to do so, and any politician who tries will have his career ended rather quickly. Political Correctness has gone far, far too far (to the point where in CA, you are no longer allowed to have pictures of "junk food" like hot dogs in textbooks, and where a student was sent to the principal's office earlier this week for saying the word "gay" in the context of describing the fact that his family consists of two mothers, instead of a mother & a father, to another classmate).

None of this will change until the "boat" is rocked. Basically, making people a bit uncomfortable on occasion is not necessarily a bad thing.

Enverex

2 Dec 2003, 8:36am

Geeky1 had this to say
very uncomfortable thread for a lot of people

Not for anyone who doesn't see the views the same way, as they have to sit there and read the crap, but not be allowed to dissagree as that would be "debating"...

NS

godzilla525

2 Dec 2003, 9:21am

Short answer:

Yes, convinced. Because I'm still alive and in one piece. (Do I really need to explain? :p )

To explain thoroughly enough to convince most everyone else would require me to practically write a book...but none of it consists of the equivalent of looking down into my coffee and seeing the image of the virgin Mary forming in the cream (apologies to the Catholics among us).

If you don't, that's entirely your choice to make.

I recall a time when my dad and I were driving around an unfamiliar area looking for a particular place that sold car batteries... ours had a dead cell and wouldn't hold enough charge to start the car, but it ran fine with it like that for a 50 minute drive to my grandparent's earlier that day.

So we're driving around semi-rural areas, getting lost, turning around, etc. while looking for this battery distibutor... we finally found the place, pull in, and the engine just dies out right there in the parking lot... it could have just as easily shut off at any (inconvenient) time prior that day, or even right on the railroad tracks about 100 feet back from where it did quit...

It's also interesting driving all over town with a dead alternator (same car, same battery, years later), but that's another, unrelated? story. :eek3:

More serious: Another time a small aircraft crashed into the home of my grandfather's best friend (made the 11 o'clock news)... He and his wife only got of the house because their kitchen table wasn't there....and we all know that stuff doesn't just disappear like that... but this table did. :wtf:

RADA

2 Dec 2003, 3:06pm

Hi Lawn, Thrax,

Thrax - Your answer was very appropriate, thank you.

Lawn, here's some clarification for you:

You say it's impossible to an agnostic-athiest, and some how that makes me less than open minded? On the contrary, I think it makes me more open minded than most persons on either side of this issue. Through 27 years of reading, learning, listening, and trying to understand, to the best of my ability, the facts laid before me, I call myself an agnostic-athiest. I (WARNING - personal opinion coming up, not flaming!) find more evidence that leads me to believe in evolution, and that there are no god(s). This is where I get the -athiest part of my title. Being of an open mind, and willing to accept the fact that there might be more to this equation than I can see, I apply the agnostic label. The agnostic part is the part that would first in line to acknowledge "God" when undeniable proof is made available to me. Until then I, like Geeky, and others here with continue to be the best person I can be. When I die, if I'm wrong and standing face to face with "God", I'll do it with a clear conscience, and accept my fate.

-R-

csimon

2 Dec 2003, 3:08pm

Do you believe in a God & why? Just a simple question ...you don't have to agree or disagree. You don't even have to answer the question at all.

Debating an off-topic subject can be a good thing but for certain reasons Short-Media has chosen not to have debates here at this website ...I hope that all of us can respect that decision on behalf of the welfare of Short-Media.

firstinhell

2 Dec 2003, 3:21pm

MoTHA_NaTuRE had this to say
so why risk a 50% chance of going to hell for not believing. what do you have to lose in believing. pride? time? just believe there is a God.

Sorry buddy, but many religions do not take it that lightly. I can't say;

".....omfg I am going to believe in God because if it is real than I go to heaven and if not no skin off my back. Either way I win!"

I was raised a Christian and they do not tolerate believing in God "Just in case". Faith in God has to be unconditional, and not just based on playing the odds and being afraid to go to hell.

Although in your case it seems that the concept of hell has had the intended effect that the storytellers wanted......think about it.

firstinhell

2 Dec 2003, 3:33pm

csimon had this to say
Do you believe in a God & why? Just a simple question ...you don't have to agree or disagree. You don't even have to answer the question at all.

Debating an off-topic subject can be a good thing but for certain reasons Short-Media has chosen not to have debates here at this website ...I hope that all of us can respect that decision on behalf of the welfare of Short-Media.

You say this is debating an "off-topic" subject, it seems to be pretty "on-topic" to me.

What is the point of a forum if there cannot be debates? What is the big deal? This is only the Internet. I am sure that the people here are mature enough to have someone disagree with them. You guys managed to get a computer running in order to reach the site, so I am sure most of you have above-average intelligence and are not completley retarded.

csimon

2 Dec 2003, 3:51pm

firstinhell had this to say
csimon had this to say
Do you believe in a God &amp; why? Just a simple question ...you don't have to agree or disagree. You don't even have to answer the question at all.

Debating an off-topic subject can be a good thing but for certain reasons Short-Media has chosen not to have debates here at this website ...I hope that all of us can respect that decision on behalf of the welfare of Short-Media.

You say this is debating an "off-topic" subject, it seems to be pretty "on-topic" to me.

What is the point of a forum if there cannot be debates? What is the big deal? This is only the Internet. I am sure that the people here are mature enough to have someone disagree with them. You guys managed to get a computer running in order to reach the site, so I am sure most of you have above-average intelligence and are not completley retarded.
I meant "off-topic" as a reference not as a subject ...as in "the short-media pub" being a place we go to discuss things off-topic from pc's.

as for "what's the point?" ...what difference does it make when you give respect?

csimon

2 Dec 2003, 3:54pm

Personally I respect the individual beliefs of everyone ...while I have a solid foundation for my belief in God (which I don't have to justify) and I have explained why ...others may have a solid disbelief or even unstable belief or disbelief ...regardless you can believe or not and it shouldn't bother anyone else.

EyesOnly

2 Dec 2003, 4:22pm

But it does matter sometimes. And sometimes it doesn't but people are still curious and religion is something that matters to everyone whether they belive or not. This thread has been mostly civilised and i'm hoping it stays that way.

In a way even i must confess to be slightly agnostic. Sure evolution sound good but i'm still bothered thinking about the so called big bang. Thinking of it becomes easier if you imagine some being creating everything and then letting evolution do it's thing. But that would be like believing in god. I'm still confused there.

Templar

2 Dec 2003, 5:48pm

firstinhell had this to say
csimon had this to say
Do you believe in a God &amp; why? Just a simple question ...you don't have to agree or disagree. You don't even have to answer the question at all.

Debating an off-topic subject can be a good thing but for certain reasons Short-Media has chosen not to have debates here at this website ...I hope that all of us can respect that decision on behalf of the welfare of Short-Media.

You say this is debating an "off-topic" subject, it seems to be pretty "on-topic" to me.

What is the point of a forum if there cannot be debates? What is the big deal? This is only the Internet. I am sure that the people here are mature enough to have someone disagree with them. You guys managed to get a computer running in order to reach the site, so I am sure most of you have above-average intelligence and are not completley retarded.

The problem with debate threads here is that there's another site, KBJ to do it at, for one. Second, debate threads on old Icrontic weren't exactly as peaceful as some could hope, hence why Shorty and the rest don't want numerous debate threads.

Geeky1

2 Dec 2003, 5:53pm

firstinhell, basically what Templar said is why we don't have debates...

www.keyboardjockey.com is the unofficial "Short-Media" debate site (it's open to anyone, but most of the members are also S-M members).

The reason why we don't have debates here is, as Templar said, because @ Icrontic (which was hacked earlier this year, and S-M started as a result), we had a lot of members that would post in debate threads simply to encourage flaming and cause disruption. The threads were more trouble than they were worth.

So, the administration here doesn't want debates. What's the point of this thread without debates? Simple: to provide people a place to post what they believe in without being criticized for that belief. Why? Because I'm curious to see what people believe and why they believe it.

Templar

2 Dec 2003, 5:55pm

KBJ's front page is down BTW, so use this link: http://www.keyboardjockey.com/forums/

:D

firstinhell

2 Dec 2003, 6:31pm

Geeky1 had this to say
firstinhell, basically what Templar said is why we don't have debates...

www.keyboardjockey.com is the unofficial "Short-Media" debate site (it's open to anyone, but most of the members are also S-M members).

The reason why we don't have debates here is, as Templar said, because @ Icrontic (which was hacked earlier this year, and S-M started as a result), we had a lot of members that would post in debate threads simply to encourage flaming and cause disruption. The threads were more trouble than they were worth.

So, the administration here doesn't want debates. What's the point of this thread without debates? Simple: to provide people a place to post what they believe in without being criticized for that belief. Why? Because I'm curious to see what people believe and why they believe it.

Like I said before, Keyboard Jockey is borked and is unaccessable. Yes, you can get to the forums section, but since the main way to get there is down nobody seems to bother posting there.

Why post in two places? That is a waste.

kthanxby

Shorty

2 Dec 2003, 6:59pm

firstinhell had this to say
< snip >

Too much to quote, so Il make it simple.

You have a place to debate, use it. If you would rather debate here.. well then there is a problem.. as we did mention politely.. that we dont want to do debate here. Just doesn't seem to be sinking in though does it? ;)

Im going to ask you so nicely, cause Im good like that.. to not try to get a debate out of this thread. It's not happening. If the simple requests here don't suit you, then thanks but go find another forum. You did familiarise yourself with the posting rules when you signed up didn't you??

Here.. let me refresh your memory.. incase it slipped..

These forums subscribe to the following codes of conduct:

For all purposes postings in and of this forum are subject to editing and removal based on the prohibited grounds of discrimination which are race, national or ethnic origin, color, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, disability and conviction for which a pardon has been granted. Where the ground of discrimination is pregnancy or child-birth, the discrimination shall be deemed to be on the ground of sex.

All members shall refrain from the use of foul language (swearing).

Postings of images deemed offensive (see above) are prohibited. Total or partial nudity is not allowed. This includes a person who may be wearing only socks or shoes. The babe thread or hunk thread may contain images that are provocative and any member viewing these threads is fully warned of the nature of these images.

Open sharing of warez, warez links, serial numbers, key codes, cracks for any and all software will be deleted and is otherwise prohibited. Also, please note that emulators are legal, but the games are only legal if they were distributed by the owner. Discussion of obtaining software illegally through P2P programs is considered a form of warez and will be likewise removed.

Any member who participates as a buyer or seller in the Deal Depot and Trading Post forum is bound to conduct business in good faith and shall deliver goods or remuneration for purchased/traded goods within a fair time as agreed between the buyer and seller. Short-Media Web Site and the respective staff take no responsibility for goods or services purchased, sold or traded in these forums.

Warnings or discipline is given in the form of posting within the subject thread, by email or private message. On-line visitors are to immediately comply. Serious offenders are given 24 hours to respond after visiting the site after a warning or disciplinary message has been posted or sent. Failure to comply my result in temporary or permanent denial of service.

Flame wars, harassment of other members, threats otherwise direct or implied and abuse of any member will be quickly extinguished by action of removal of said posts and/or closing of threads. Instigating and participating members may be subject to temporary or permanent ban from these forums.

Moderators, Super Moderators and Administration staff have the authority to remove any member temporarily or permanently after an official warning to any member(s) that have breached these rules of conduct. Moderator, Super Moderators and Administration staff have the right to edit or remove any postings.

These rules extend to avatars, signature lines and images and Moderators, Super Moderators and Administration staff have the authority to request changes. If the member does not comply then the staff has the authority to remove the aforementioned items.

Any member who disagrees with any posting is to contact the Moderator staff to bring the alleged posting to their attention. The best mrthod too do so is using the "Report this post to a moderator" function in the lower right corner of every post box.

In summation we welcome you to these forums and hope you find them a resourceful, friendly and fun environment. Please think twice before posting.

Oh noess!!!1 Did you upset me?? :eek: :rolleyes:

Not at all. I do however have better things to do with my day than repeat myself on the internet and on my site. So the choice is yours...

Follow the simple requests or don't post.

kthxbye :D

firstinhell

2 Dec 2003, 7:19pm

Too much to quote, so Il make it simple.

Thanks with your pissy arrogant tone, you obviously feel you are smarter than me and you need to make it simple for dumb people like me.

You have a place to debate, use it. If you would rather debate here.. well then there is a problem.. as we did mention politely.. that we dont want to do debate here. Just doesn't seem to be sinking in though does it? ;)

That place to debate does not work that fact does not seem to be sinking in for you. (http://www.keyboardjockey.com) Also, why would I want to have a master debate with myself? Nobody goes to keyboardjockey because it is gay (and I cannot translate Thrax's posts.....LOLZZ!!! ).

Im going to ask you so nicely, cause Im good like that..
to not try to get a debate out of this thread. It's not happening. If the simple requests here don't suit you, then thanks but go find another forum. You did familiarise yourself with the posting rules when you signed up didn't you??

You are not asking me nicley, you are asking very arrogantly and condescendingly. No, I did not read the rules when I signed up. I did not realize that there was a code of conduct to post on the internet.

Here.. let me refresh your memory.. incase it slipped..

No, nothing slipped. I never bothered to read the rules. You know all of that software you pirated? Did you read the EULA message when you instaled it?

Oh noess!!!1 Did you upset me?? :eek: :rolleyes:

obviously I did upset you. You took time out of your life to pwn me.

Not at all. I do however have better things to do with my day than repeat myself on the internet and on my site. So the choice is yours...

So since this is your site, when someone posts something that happens to go against what you think, you yell at them like some school principal? Do you realize what you sound like?

Follow the simple requests or don't post.

I'll post whenever I please ;D

kthanxby!!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes::banghead:

Shorty

2 Dec 2003, 7:30pm

Oh give it a rest. I was and several others were polite at the start of your posting in this thread, so please don't act like we have hurt your feelings or are oppressing you :rolleyes:

The rules were set in place from day one, they are even included in the posting rules you agreed to when you signed up ;) There is no code for the internet, but there is when you sign up and use a bulletin board like this.

Keyboard jockey works fine, you did state you didn't want to have to use the full forum link.

I honestly do have better things to do then "pwn" you. It's the internet, thus nothing will get solved by swapping attempts on one upmanship.

However, I asked once nicely, then I asked again and this is the third time. Shame.

EyesOnly

2 Dec 2003, 7:49pm

Fistinhell give it a rest now will you. This thread was going just fine before you started picking on shorty. Ever considered that maybe he's right. May i suggest that you get yourself a nice shoot'm'up game like unreal tournament or quake. It's better to blow of steam in them rather than in forums. Now for christs sake let's get this thread back on topic.

MoTHA_NaTuRE

2 Dec 2003, 8:15pm

agreed, no one is oppressing anybody in here. please continue the topic of this thread.

Thrax

2 Dec 2003, 8:36pm

Hooray for maturity and intellectual worth! Both found in abundance on the internet.

csimon

2 Dec 2003, 9:57pm

this kbj link (http://www.keyboardjockey.com/forums/) works fine now!

madmat

2 Dec 2003, 10:59pm

Holy cow, I know that when I first got here that I got off on a bad foot but at least I let it go and openly appologized to everyone.
Shorty, don't let that guy disrespect you like that...I know that some people have fun with you at times but this is just utterly uncalled for and IMHO I really don't think you need this person around stirring up a hornets nest.

Enverex

2 Dec 2003, 11:22pm

Though.....

You can't say that.....

LawnMM

3 Dec 2003, 3:50am

RADA had this to say
Hi Lawn, Thrax,

Thrax - Your answer was very appropriate, thank you.

Lawn, here's some clarification for you:

You say it's impossible to an agnostic-athiest, and some how that makes me less than open minded?

No, what I said is that its like calling yourself a catholic jew and that you SHOULD call yourself open minded, rather than "agnostic atheist."

From what you said, it sounds to me like you're an atheist. Saying you'd believe in a god if the proof was made available to you isn't saying much, because anybody could say that. I could say I'd be an atheist if somebody proved there was no god...that doesn't mean I have any atheist tendancies.

Its what you first and foremost believe. If you're agnostic, you're undecided, if you're atheist, you've chosen a side of the debate. Can't have it both ways IMHO.

LawnMM

3 Dec 2003, 3:57am

Shorty had this to say
firstinhell had this to say
< snip >

Im going to ask you so nicely, cause Im good like that.. to not try to get a debate out of this thread. It's not happening. If the simple requests here don't suit you, then thanks but go find another forum. You did familiarise yourself with the posting rules when you signed up didn't you??

Here.. let me refresh your memory.. incase it slipped..

Just because I love playing devil's advocate, deal me into this discussion. Unless my eyes are fading, nowhere in those rules does it say anything about no debates. What I do see is..."Discussion of obtaining software illegally through P2P programs is considered a form of warez and will be likewise removed," which, coincidentally, I see a lot of regardless of it being against the rules.

Interesante...:scratch:

MachineGunKelly

4 Dec 2003, 12:56am

'first in hell'.......hmmm.......I hope you make it.....

In case you are too dense to figure it out, Shorty, along with Mediaman OWN this site dude. He's trying, very hard I might add, to let you cool off. You are obviously intelligent enough to navigate to this site so take the hint.

I am a mod over at KBJ and will be happy to let you say whatever you want OVER THERE. This is not the place. MGK

godzilla525

4 Dec 2003, 1:40am

:wave:

In any case, so far you're all handling this in a far more mature manner than topically-similar "discussions" at the Winamp forum... eesh... :crazy:

That's why I closed that out and came in here with my two cents worth...

Please spare my sanity and don't let it further degrade into that...:shakehead

Kwitko

4 Dec 2003, 1:53am

LawnMM had this to say
Unless my eyes are fading, nowhere in those rules does it say anything about no debates.[/B]

Rule #8 (http://www.short-media.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6932):

Self-expression is fully encouraged, but please refrain from non-technical debates (i.e. politics, religion, etc.) in the Pub or any other forum. We encourage members who are interested debate-oriented discussion to visit an affiliate site: Keybard Jockey

Additionally, no topics about warez have been allowed to continue, and offending links are always removed. Discussing BitTorrent, Kazaa, IRC, and similar programs in and of itself is not discussing warez as these programs certainly have legitimate uses. Direct links to illegal downloads, however, is strictly prohibited.

LawnMM

4 Dec 2003, 2:14am

Mr. Kwitko had this to say

Rule #8 (http://www.short-media.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6932):

Thats not what shorty posted...he posted this...

http://www.short-media.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=73748#post73748

That looks like what I saw when I signed up, the thread you linked to I've never seen before.

Additionally, no topics about warez have been allowed to continue, and offending links are always removed. Discussing BitTorrent, Kazaa, IRC, and similar programs in and of itself is not discussing warez as these programs certainly have legitimate uses. Direct links to illegal downloads, however, is strictly prohibited. [/B]

Whatever you say. I see people discussing the latest song/movie whatever they downloaded all the time. Nobody says a thing. :rolleyes2

Yes, they have legitimate uses, I've just yet to see a thread wherein their legitimate uses are being discussed. Maybe its my definition of discussion thats causing the confusion. To me, anybody talking about or mentioning in any way something they downloaded/obtained illegally would seem to qualify as "discussion" thereby prohibited in the forum rules. Perhaps people actually need to say "I downloaded [Artist Name] - [Title of Song]...go use this program to get it right now at the following link!" in order for it to violate the forum rules. :confused2

Not that I haven't seen quite close to that already...:scratch:

Thrax

4 Dec 2003, 2:16am

To be honest, Lawn, your definition of the rule isn't what matters.

You know I back you up most of the time on this, and you know I don't mean ill when I say that.

pseudonym

4 Dec 2003, 2:19am

Shorty had this to say
<Snippey> Oh give it a rest. I was and several others were polite at the start of your posting in this thread, so please don't act like we have hurt your feelings or are oppressing you :rolleyes: </Snippey>

AWWW. Now where is the Monty Python reference when you need one!!! I missed out on that...

**ahem**

HELP!!! HELP!!! I'm being reppressed!!!

//edit Oh yeah. Agnostic

LawnMM

4 Dec 2003, 2:21am

Thrax had this to say
To be honest, Lawn, your definition of the rule isn't what matters.

You know I back you up most of the time on this, and you know I don't mean ill when I say that.

You don't find the date on the bottom of that list of rules interesting? Might explain why I've never seen them before!

Kwitko

4 Dec 2003, 2:28am

We're not going to get into a debate about the rules. The owners of this site can change the rules if they see fit. If you have a grievance with the rules, please PM the admins and/or mods in private.

If this thread does not return to the topic at hand- belief in God- it will be closed.

LawnMM

4 Dec 2003, 2:40am

Mr. Kwitko had this to say
We're not going to get into a debate about the rules. The owners of this site can change the rules if they see fit. If you have a grievance with the rules, please PM the admins and/or mods in private.

If this thread does not return to the topic at hand- belief in God- it will be closed.

Heaven forbid we discuss the rules! I'm not debating them, I'm asking questions about them and trying to clear up some confusion surrounding them, for me at least. I didn't see anything in the rules that made that illegal. Have questions been outlawed as well? Close the thread, prove me right. :thumbsup:

primesuspect

4 Dec 2003, 2:44am

:rolleyes: I knew we were about a month overdo for the short-media oppression crap again. Aren't you bored with bringing this stuff up all the time? :D

Hmmm, being that I am a dictatorial hypocrit, I might change the rules in a few minutes to prevent anyone from using the letter "L" in their posts.... Anybody who goes against my will shall be banned from the 1337 intnarweb!!! :rarr:

Geeky1

4 Dec 2003, 2:46am

I knew we were about a month overdo for the short-media oppression crap again.

I was hoping they'd forgotten...

LawnMM

4 Dec 2003, 2:48am

primesuspect had this to say
:rolleyes: I knew we were about a month overdo for the short-media oppression crap again. Aren't you bored with bringing this stuff up all the time? :D

Hmmm, being that I am a dictatorial hypocrit, I might change the rules in a few minutes to prevent anyone from using the letter "L" in their posts.... Anybody who goes against my will shall be banned from the 1337 intnarweb!!! :rarr:

Short media hypocrisy crap! Lets keep it straight! :wave:

No "L's" huh...that could prove interesting. No L's in hypocrite though! Be careful Prime...don't turn this into a debate about the alphabet now! Might get the thread locked! :eek3:

Thrax

4 Dec 2003, 2:49am

Lawn.

Drop it.

I agreed with you the first time. I agreed with you the second time.

It's aggravating ME now. If you wish to be persistent about it, there are PMs.. Use them.

For the love of god, please.

Repetition of the same ilk does nothing but repeat the same ilk. It doesn't make your point any stronger.

primesuspect

4 Dec 2003, 2:53am

He lost all his allies, so he continues the struggle against the oppresive regime alone! The mighty hero hath come!

Nobody cares anymore. You just end up looking.... pathetic when you keep pissing and moaning :rolleyes:

LawnMM

4 Dec 2003, 2:53am

Thrax had this to say
Lawn.

Drop it.

I agreed with you the first time. I agreed with you the second time.

It's aggravating ME now. If you wish to be persistent about it, there are PMs.. Use them.

For the love of god, please.

Repetition of the same ilk does nothing but repeat the same ilk. It doesn't make your point any stronger.

I have a point! :woowoo:

I'd PM if I thought it would be taken seriously. In any case, I guess we've said all there is to say for now! **edit** maybe not!

primesuspect had this to say
He lost all his allies, so he continues the struggle against the oppresive regime alone! The mighty hero hath come!

Nobody cares anymore.

What allies are you referring to?

You just end up looking.... pathetic

Was that a personal attack?

primesuspect

4 Dec 2003, 2:56am

damn... there's gonna be a next time :(

LawnMM

4 Dec 2003, 3:00am

primesuspect had this to say
damn... there's gonna be a next time :(

Need the last word?

Black Hawk

4 Dec 2003, 3:20am

:rolleyes2

pseudonym

4 Dec 2003, 3:25am

Dear god.

/me runs to get the teacher.

Straight_Man

4 Dec 2003, 4:13am

Um, questions, when pointed, show as criticism if repeated too often, and answers make points but questions can draw fire if too dry, get it LawnMM???? :(

We do not need to be strict, but do need to toe the line close enough to not get in legal trouble-- And I am a user agreeing with the mods and OWNERS here. I also have seen more than one board trashed by repeated questions that look like insinuations.

Asking legalisticly for definitions to a fine point makes one wonder if you accept even the basics, from this end, and I LIVED with a Lawyer for a long time, decades, and Prime knows the law real good too. This arena has to do with being a tech site, not a debate site, and the lawyer's rule when havving no point to make is to ask pointed questions until someoine breaks, but we do NOT break.

I'd say cool it, but I'm not your big brother though given your ways of speech I am old enough to be your father or uncle.

Please go mow someone else's virtual grass if you MUST mow grass for others WHEN THEY ASK you NOT TO, we can mow our own here. ADn the USERS CA?N stand with the Admins, given that the DMCA was written and is being enforced specifically to enforce legal actions on ISPs, hosting Providers, Universities, and end users if they misuse P2P. It makes them subject to discovery, and the FBI is enforcing this. Penalty is $10,000.00 per INSTANCE. The RIAA wants TEST cases, adn they have Copyright law behind them, and Royalty contract law. Prime, Shorty, MediaMan, and I know this law, and although I do not have a financil interest in this site, I DO support Prime and the other admins as a friend.

In RE legit uses for BitTorrent, it is used to let Linux users share it to each other and take the bandwidth bills off the distro pubs, among other things. In RE legit uses for IRC, it is used to monitor as well as simply converse about things that ARE legal, on soem channels. Like the Web, everything has good and down sides, law is not pure black and white in the world on the surface, but things that are too dark gray tend to be eliminated in the long run one way or the other-- that is not a threat, it is a statement-- plain and simple one.

PMs are for clarification, to owners, admins, or mods. Then it is not rabble-rousing. this LOOKS like rabble-rousing, prove me wrong PLEASE, with pure LOGIC. Techs are LOGICAL, mostly.

John, who DOES believe in God and Peace, among other things. And who is HEAVILY RESTRAINING HIMSELF in the interests of THOSE just mentioned things, becasue he knows the value of mercy. Let's say that from my end, hearing a loud squeal and going out to find my father horrified one day, to find a mama rabbit had gotten her head chopped off by dad's old push mower-- which got jammed, and raising the orphans in the nest with mama made me dislike the premise of the movie Lawn Mower Man because I had lived with handling the consequences way back in 1963. You might say I learned mercy then, which is why I value it now and a belief set that includes it. I helped bury mama rabbit , also. And INSTIGATED getting the babaies in and feeding them with goat milk (we did not have a goat, we went to a farmer we bought eggs from to find out what to feed baby rabbits so young that they had their eyes still shut). What you have seen so far is mercy, let's end it here, OK???

John.

a2jfreak

4 Dec 2003, 4:16am

I hadn't seen lawsuits mentioned prior to this post, and I think a lawsuit would be absolutely ridiculous but we live in a such a litigious society that, honestly, it wouldn't surprise me, though it would definitely disappoint me.

SimGuy

4 Dec 2003, 4:45am

Believe in god? No.

I make my own destiny. I control my life. I take it in the direction I want it to go.

As for this thread.... I'm surprised to see it on track as much as it is. For 146 posts (as of this time), it's pretty clean. Well done :)

Straight_Man

4 Dec 2003, 4:50am

Um, they are using threats of lawsuits to the bandwidth providers to get aid in identifying the end users. The folks running the networks can be served with DISCOVERY SUBPOENAES, and then must testify under oath-- one possible penalty is purgery, and should one commit that in this instance, it is likely a criminal suit against the person commiting such would follow as well as judicially made penalties to force compliance. The fact of the law, until and IF it is overturned or modified in part, amkes the fact that there will be lawsuits inevitable.

The FBI now has teams doing nothing but internet fraud, and those with copyrights and royalty agreements are in fact complaining to the FBI and demanding action. The DMCA made stealing copyrighted software a criminal act. Ditto stolen copyrighted media.

John-- whose church pays royalties for songs performed in worship, for just that reason, though we did that for many years prior to the DMCA as even artists and actors have to live.

SimGuy

4 Dec 2003, 4:56am

Ageek had this to say
Um, they are using threats of lawsuits to the bandwidth providers to get aid in identifying the end users. The folks running the networks can be served with DISCOVERY SUBPOENAES, and then must testify under oath-- one possible penalty is purgery, and should one commit that in this instance, it is likely a criminal suit against the person commiting such would follow as well as judicially made penalties to force compliance. The fact of the law, until and IF it is overturned or modified in part, amkes the fact that there will be lawsuits inevitable.

The FBI now has teams doing nothing but internet fraud, and those with copyrights and royalty agreements are in fact complaining to the FBI and demanding action. The DMCA made stealing copyrighted software a criminal act. Ditto stolen copyrighted media.

John-- whose church pays royalties for songs performed in worship, for just that reason, though we did that for many years prior to the DMCA as even artists and actors have to live.

It's great to live in a country where the DMCA and any of its' surrounding American legislation cannot be invoked. ;)

Dexter

4 Dec 2003, 5:04am

LawnMM had this to say
You don't find the date on the bottom of that list of rules interesting? Might explain why I've never seen them before! [/B]

LawnMM, that posting was put up today in order to make the rules more easily accessible to people who say they have never seen them. The rules have always been available on the site, by way of the announcement link at the top of each forum listing, so there is no excuse not to know them. Especially when people who run the site keep telling you to stop breaking them...

This thread started with the purpose of allowing people to share their beliefs so we could all gain insight from them. It was explicitly stated that thre was to be NO debating or disrespecting of other people's views. Why can't you just grow up and respect that?

Dexter...

csimon

4 Dec 2003, 2:16pm

A little girl was talking to her teacher about whales. The teacher
said it was physically impossible for a whale to swallow a human
because even though it was a very large mammal its throat was very
small. The little girl stated that a whale swallowed Jonah.
Irritated, the teacher reiterated that a whale could not swallow a
human; it was physically impossible. The little girl said, "When I get
to heaven I will ask Jonah". The teacher asked, "What if Jonah went to
hell?" The little girl replied, "Then you ask him".

A Sunday school teacher was discussing the Ten Commandments with her
five and six year olds. After explaining the commandment to "honor"
thy Father and thy Mother, she asked, "Is there a commandment that
teaches us how to treat our brothers and sisters?" Without missing a
beat one little boy (the oldest of a family) answered, "Thou shall not
kill."

The children were lined up in the cafeteria of a Catholic elementary
school for lunch. At the head of the table was a large pile of
apples.
The nun made a note, and posted on the apple tray: "Take only ONE.
God is watching." Moving further along the lunch line, at the other
end of the table was a large pile of chocolate chip cookies.
A child had written a note, "Take all you want. God is watching the apples.

A Kindergarten teacher was observing her classroom of children while
they were drawing. She would occasionally walk around to see each
child's work. As she got to one little girl who was working
diligently, she asked what the drawing was. The girl replied, "I'm
drawing God." The teacher paused and said, "But no one knows what God
looks like." Without missing a beat, or looking up from her drawing,
the girl replied, "They will in a minute."
:kneel:

Geeky1

4 Dec 2003, 4:27pm

EyesOnly

4 Dec 2003, 6:06pm

Nice stories Csimon. :D :D.

Please don't take this the wrong way but i'm not sure if Primesuspect has said anything in this thread about his religion. Then again he doesn't have to since anyone who's read The lore of the 1337 proc already knows what that is. Those who haven't can look in the pub or his sig for a link.

Ok let's not joke to much so we can back on topic. But Csimons post were about religion. Oh well never mind.

CaffeineMe

4 Dec 2003, 6:33pm

I want to believe in a higher power and an afterlife. Being of a scientific, practical mindset, I require proof of such things. I have not seen this proof. What would constitute such proof? Well, I suppose I'll know it when I see it.

I do not believe in the concept of God as illustrated by the world's faiths. If there is a God, it (no disrespect there, if there is a God, he/she is WAY past being identified by gender) does not care what interpretation of it's teaching I read, what direction I bow to when I pray, where I spend my time on Sunday, or who I give money too.

If I am to be judged after I die, I believe I will be judged by the impact of my actions on my fellow man. The sum of all my actions will be computed in a great cosmic calculator, and I will be judged as good or bad. Rewarded or punished. Of course, that's IF I am to be judged.

Until I see proof of a higher power, I'm going to keep on keepin' on, just trying to be excellent to others.

bothered

4 Dec 2003, 6:47pm

I think something like that but not judged as either good or evil, rather judged whether I have learned enough or not. I believe life is a spiritual journey with unlimited options.

PS Prime doesn't 'have' a religion.

a2jfreak

4 Dec 2003, 7:07pm

Buddhism is more a way of life or a way of thinking/approaching things than it is a "religion" or a "faith."

Though, Christianity is a way of life too and not necessarily a "religion."

Christianity, Buddhism, etc. all get lumped into the category of "religion" most of the time because it's much easier that way.

One thing I find odd about these "scientific" statements about believing or disbelieving in God is that it's not scientific at all. Proof? Science proves things apagogically, meaning that it disproves everything else and by process of elimination we "prove" things. Since science cannot disprove God, the burden lies in proving the alternative, but since God cannot be disproven scientifically that still leaves at least two choices--God, and the lone standing alternative.

To me, though, science and religion/faith are allies, not enemies. I've never seen one shred of evidence that makes me question my faith in God, though I've seen many things scientific that further cement my faith.

csimon

4 Dec 2003, 7:14pm

CaffeineMe had this to say
I want to believe in a higher power and an afterlife. Being of a scientific, practical mindset, I require proof of such things. I have not seen this proof. What would constitute such proof? Well, I suppose I'll know it when I see it.

I do not believe in the concept of God as illustrated by the world's faiths. If there is a God, it (no disrespect there, if there is a God, he/she is WAY past being identified by gender) does not care what interpretation of it's teaching I read, what direction I bow to when I pray, where I spend my time on Sunday, or who I give money too.

If I am to be judged after I die, I believe I will be judged by the impact of my actions on my fellow man. The sum of all my actions will be computed in a great cosmic calculator, and I will be judged as good or bad. Rewarded or punished. Of course, that's IF I am to be judged.

Until I see proof of a higher power, I'm going to keep on keepin' on, just trying to be excellent to others.
One thing that I think most believers believe is that there will be a "coming" or "second coming" in which God will reveal himself. So "when/if" it happens (no disrespect) then it will and "when/if" it doesn't happen it doesn't.
My point being is that the "believers" believe that anyone and everyone will have the same chance to witness the "proof".
All I'm trying to say is that according to "believers" ...everyone will get this chance eventually.
If you believe then you will be justified at the moment of this revelation ...if the revelation doesn't occur then non-believers are then justified.
Does this sound too one sided? I hope this gets received the way I intend it.
csimon had this to say
I have a question for all of you who don't believe in God.
If God were to present proof of himself to the world in such a manner that everyone on earth could see and photograph this proof but not touch ...and this revelation were undoubtedly proof of God's existence ...would you believe and how would you feel?
That is where I was going with this question/post. Again I don't mean to target anyone and if it seems that way I certainly do apologize.

Thrax

4 Dec 2003, 9:53pm

Science doesn't have to disprove God.

The burden of proof is on those saying he exists.

/me shrugs

~~~

As far as Buddhism is concerned, I think the idea of it being a religion depends greatly on what type of Buddhism is question.

This is the relevant information as to what I've pulled from my own research so far over the last six weeks:

There are rigorous forms, and there are relaxed forms. Those being Mahayana and Hinayana (Theravada).

Hinayana is a conservative form of Buddhism that adheres to Pali scriptures and the nontheistic ideal of self purification to Nirvana; the dominant religion of Sri Lanka (Ceylon) and Myanmar (Burma) and Thailand and Laos and Cambodia.

Mahayana is one of two great schools of Buddhist doctrine emphasizing a common search for universal salvation especially through faith alone; the dominant religion of China and Tibet and Japan.

Mahayana is more.. Religious, as Monks are the only ones capable of achieving nirvana.

Hinayana is more the lifestyle, as anyone, through a process of living a true, good, righteous life can achieve Nirvana and be a(n) Bodhisattva (Worthy of nirvana; postpones it to help another)/Arhat (Buddhist who has attained nirvana).

So it depends on which side of Buddhism you pick which determines a religious outlook, or a lifestyle outlook.

madmat

4 Dec 2003, 10:44pm

Let's see, science has been predated by religion by what, 1 or 2000 years?
That being the case why should religion have to prove itself to an upstart field?
If anyone's going to prove/disprove the Bible it's going to be science and not religion.
This falls into a category of if I tell you something I know as a fact and you don't believe it I'm not bound by any convention to prove myself to you and unless you can prove I'm full of it you can't dispute me without looking foolish.
Science can't look at the Bible/God and say it's not true because we say so without backing it up.

Enverex

4 Dec 2003, 11:05pm

madmat had this to say
Science can't look at the Bible/God and say it's not true because we say so without backing it up.

And religion cant just say all these things happened without proof either....

NS

Thrax

4 Dec 2003, 11:08pm

Religion certainly predates science; but the idea of God didn't uniformly exist until Pope Gregory spun some funky PR to the Celts.

primesuspect

4 Dec 2003, 11:55pm

Prime doesn't have a religion :D

It's no secret that I am a follower of Buddha's teachings, so I'll say this: Buddha in his infinite wisdom did not say anything about God. He did not say "There is a god" or "there is not a god"... He just smiled. Upon acheiving enlightenment, God will be figured out. We don't worry about it. God is a force, not a personality, so it cannot be appealed to. We tend to smirk at the western thought's tendency to personify god by calling god "him" and "he" and praying to "him" and asking "him" for this or that. Would you pray to light? heat? Electricity? Can you draw a picture of electricity? Can you ask heat to cure your cancer?

We are worried about fixing ourselves. The god force is omnipresent and thus does not concern us any more than making heat happy does. :D

Leonardo

5 Dec 2003, 2:23am

Prime,

You just gave a concise explanation of Buddhism that provided me a clearer understanding than a complete comparitive religion course in college did! Well done. (Down with the pointyheads!)

primesuspect

5 Dec 2003, 3:45am

Hahah! Thanks for the compliment! It comes from having to explain myself to my catholic family over and over and over and over and over again :D

bothered

5 Dec 2003, 7:57am

Quote-
He did not say "There is a god" or "there is not a god"...

He probably said both.
How many Zen buddhists does it take to change a light bulb?
One to change the light bulb and one to not change the light bulb!

There only two things you must learn to find God.
1, All the praying, seeking, questioning and good works will not bring you to God.
2, Forget number 1.

EyesOnly

5 Dec 2003, 4:10pm

Good ones bothered. :D

Prime my joke was somewhat missed by you. Lores is parts of most religions and believes and you've been mentioned in a lore, though be it written much later than other lores. But if you want to keep being a buddist who am i to argue. It's up to you. BTW much have been said in lores but that doesn't mean that the lores are true. Nice to see that this thread is finally back on topic.

csimon

5 Dec 2003, 4:41pm

primesuspect had this to say
It comes from having to explain myself to my catholic family over and over and over and over and over again :D
LOL ...just out of curiosity (and please feel free to even ignore the question) when you made your "transition" from catholicism to buddhism (or whatever the transition was for clarity sake) ...what was is it that inspired this?
Was it a turn off of catholicism or a turn on by buddhism? A little of both? neither? shut the hell up and mind your own business? lol j/k

csimon

MachineGunKelly

5 Dec 2003, 5:50pm

For me, there is a God, Creator, Supreme being, in whatever form it wants to take.
I know it when I see my baby daughter silently sleeping on my chest without a care in the world. When her first waking moment is to smile at me with those sparkling blue eyes, older, watching as she gently holds her kitten as I did her. I know it when I see my son make all the right choices that I could not make, when he comes home early from the prom after making prom king or his graduation party because 'they were drinking' and he didn't want to be around them like that. When he takes a job that no one else will do and make the best of it to help with his expenses. Alot of those qualities are missing from many kids today. I can see how his belief in God has helped him to be a better person in all respects, and so, that reinforces my belief as well.
I see a Great Creator when I watch the squirrels chase each other around the tree out back, when the ducks and geese fly over my house each and every year, when I watch my garden produce food for my family. When I narrowly miss being killed at work or on the road. There is a reason I am here. I am here to instruct my children on life and to be here to answer questions as best I can for them. My faith that there is a God keeps me doing just that. Not out of fear of death but for the hope that my kids will be better human beings as a result of my efforts. If I were not here, and there are LOTS of reasons why I should NOT be here, they would decay into the mindless drivel that I see all up and down the block and all over town. Lazy, undriven by anything but the next beer or cigarette or joint. Quitting school because no one at their house gives a damn about their future. One of the biggest losers is a kid who's father is an atheist. He lost out on alot of warmth, compassion, understanding and guidance. His father instilled in him the fact that there is nothing to believe in, and nothing to live for, except yourself. Well, he reaped what he sowed in my opinion, at his son's expense. Why should he try to exceed when there was no hope instilled in him?

My two cents. MGK

primesuspect

5 Dec 2003, 6:06pm

csimon had this to say
primesuspect had this to say
It comes from having to explain myself to my catholic family over and over and over and over and over again :D
LOL ...just out of curiosity (and please feel free to even ignore the question) when you made your "transition" from catholicism to buddhism (or whatever the transition was for clarity sake) ...what was is it that inspired this?
Was it a turn off of catholicism or a turn on by buddhism? A little of both? neither? shut the hell up and mind your own business? lol j/k

csimon

As a teenager I found the giant hypocrisy of the Catholic Church hard to swallow. Perhaps it was my unique experience, but all I ever saw was money and money and money flowing into the churches and no good ever coming out of it. I saw many churchgoers chatting and gossiping and bickering and comparing who gave what and I never heard much about God or Jesus. I saw the priest driving a brand new Lincoln every year. I saw the local Catholic High School band getting brand new uniforms and instruments all the time. I heard about scandals all over the US with the Catholic church.

That's why I'm not catholic

As to why I'm not Christian, that's a bit more complicated. I guess I just don't have much room for faith in my mind. I do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, in fact I find the idea patently silly (see my above post), and I absolutely do not believe that Jesus' was a virgin birth. That's just plain impossible.

Jesus was what we call a Boddhisattva: He was a wise man who walked the proper path and was on his way to enlightenment. Whenever that happens, and a Boddhisattva walks the Earth, people know. They can see the potential and they can see how close this person is to perfection, so they naturally follow him or her and listen to what they have to say and write about them and praise them. I think the political environment was ripe at the time of Jesus' death for him to be made into something he wasn't - a deity. So many atrocities have been committed in the name of Jesus. How sad. It's not Jesus' fault that corrupt human beings turned his name into a badge and a system of beliefs that really only furthers the goals of the people in charge.

There are writings that indicate that Jesus did not die on the cross. There are documents that speak of Jesus spending time in India after his crucifixion. There are many who believe that he was rescued off the cross and hidden away and taken to India to live another eight years peacefully. For obvious reasons, these are very dangerous ideas in the west and so they aren't really talked about much.

a2jfreak

5 Dec 2003, 6:54pm

Just to add a bit to what MGK hit on: You do "right" because it's what makes you feel better and because it brings you joy. So often I see or hear people say that Christians are Christians because they fear hell. While I don't want to go to hell, I am a Christian because Christ has touched my life. I do what I believe is right in the eyes of God not for fear of going to hell but because I do not want to disappoint my Lord and Savior.

I believe that many "atheists" are not true atheists. By that I mean I don't believe they've said in their heart that there is no God. How many "atheists" said a little prayer when Bart passed away? How many "atheists" had the thought "if there is a God and there is a Heaven I hope Bart made it . . . or if there is a hell I hope Bart doesn't go there" pass through their minds? Any "atheist" that said a prayer, or had that thought haven't written of God in their hearts . . . I believe they just don't like the idea that God has set forth rules with which we're to adhere and that man is held accountable for his actions so rather than live for God they "live the best they can" to ease their conscience and not feel "leashed" to God.

Obviously, there are true atheists too--those who have said in their hearts there is no God, but I think most "atheists" fall into the category of "mental atheism" rather than truly believing in their hearts there is no God.

Dexter

5 Dec 2003, 7:02pm

madmat had this to say
Let's see, science has been predated by religion by what, 1 or 2000 years?
That being the case why should religion have to prove itself to an upstart field?
If anyone's going to prove/disprove the Bible it's going to be science and not religion.
This falls into a category of if I tell you something I know as a fact and you don't believe it I'm not bound by any convention to prove myself to you and unless you can prove I'm full of it you can't dispute me without looking foolish.
Science can't look at the Bible/God and say it's not true because we say so without backing it up.

I have been studiously avoiding this thread because I don't want to cross the line of discussion vs. debate, but this comment intrigued me.

Science is defined as the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Religion is defined as belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe, or a personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

It stands to obvious reason that religion does not pre-date science. Ancient man observed, identified and described various phenomena:

"Look Grog, the sun moves from there in the morning to there at night!."

"Look Grog, the sky flashes up brightly and loud rumbles shake us while drops of water fall from above!"

"Look Grog, the mountain with the smoke coming out of it's top is smoking a whole bunch more lately. And does it feel like the ground is shaking......?"

"Look Grog, the sun is being eaten by the moon!"

Obviously, ancient man observed and tried to describe many things. But then they needed answers to the basic scientific questions: "Why does this happen?" "Can we control it in some way?" "Can we benefit from it somehow?"

Remember that part of the definition of science is the "therotecial explanation of phenomena." Ancient man had a very limited frame of reference for scientifc data. They could not compare notes easily with the neandrethals a couple of valleys over. They could not publish their research and theories on stone tablets that were distributed to every cave. They could not turn their thoughts into invisible data and beam it to their fellows on the next continent. So they did not have a lot of other knowledge and facts to draw upon when they developed their theories of why the sun moves, the rain falls, the lightning flashes, the volcano erupts or a solar eclipse occurs. But they still needed to assign a "why" to all this. So they made up theories that gave answers to their scared children, huddling in the back of the cave as the lightning flashed and the thunder rumbled. "There are great and powerful beings called gods who live up in the sky, and they are angry at you for not finishing your mastadon leg for supper, and they are trying to strike you down with their light spears."

Religion is a result of man trying to scientifically identify and explain their world. Science was there first, religion was one of the answers they came up with. But as has been shown througout the centuries, a lot of religion turned out to be answers based on bad science. If the Christian faith (specifically the Catholic vatican of the middle ages) had the final say on all things scientific, the earth would still be flat and in the middle of the universe. Anyone who dared say otherwise was killed for questioning the belief structure. And that is where religion has gone wrong. Instead of embracing questions and scientific discussion, it feared it, and branded those who would question as "heretics", and then killed them in evil, awful ways as a frightening example to warn off others: Do not strive to KNOW, just BELIEVE.

And even to this day, in millions of homes world-wide, little children are smacked when they question the words of the bible, or the Koran, or whatever else their parents happen to believe in.

Certainly, there are now many enlightened religious people who see the benefit of science...but they still cling to religion / god as the end-all be-all answer to things that science cannot yet explain. "Ah-hah" they say in glee to the scientist who cannot yet prove conclusively if the temperature of a star in a distant galaxy is 10 billion degrees Kelvin, or 11 billion degrees Kelvin. "God would know, he made that star and all others in the universe. Too bad your science just doesn't have all the answers does it? But god does. Now come to church and be sure to leave your tithe, and god will give you all the answers you seek....in the afterlife, of course."

Why should science have to disprove God? As Thrax said, "science" is not claiming that god exists. Just because science cannot currently provide every single answer to every single question we may have, does not mean that science is wrong. Religion and science are not (or at least should not) be polar opposites, as religion is not science inverted, nor vice versa. A religion is a belief structure, a set of answers one chooses to believe in, a theory that they believe fits the facts.

The problem I have with most religions is that when the facts stop fitting the answer, they won't give up on the answer. Religions like Judaism, Christianity and the Muslim faith have too much invested in a couple of books that were written in times when man did not have enough facts, books writtten by different people, who contradicted each other, wove their own opinions in to them. Books that were revised, edited and translated numerous times over the milennia. Books whose principles of honesty and peace and love have good messages, but whose explanations of facts are stuck in the knowledge paradigm of the writers, now thousands of years dead, buried and cold.

Science is not an upstart field, madmat. Science is the quest for knowledge within us all. Religion was one answer set (well, several actually, if you look at all the mythologies and belief systems that mankind developed over thousands of years) that was postulated in response to that basic human need to explain and give order our universe. The important question now is, do you think the answer set you were given, one which is based upon answers postulated thousands of years ago, is the best and most accurate way of explaining the facts?

If it were solely up to religion, would you be reading these words on your computer? If the "heretics" had not been able to prove that some things that were always believed were in fact wrong, if the religious zealots had been able to kill them all or shut them all up as they wanted to, would the earth still be flat?

My apologies in advance if this post offends anyone. As you can guess, my tendencies in terms of religion are that I don't have any. I grew up Catholic and was able to shake that off and become agnostically pragmatic in my early teens. Someone prove me a god and a heaven, and I will believe it. Makes for some interesting conversations with my father-in-law, who is a United Methodist minister ;) (And I must admit, he is very accepting of others beliefs or lack thereof. )

Dexter...

csimon

5 Dec 2003, 7:04pm

primesuspect had this to say
csimon had this to say
primesuspect had this to say
It comes from having to explain myself to my catholic family over and over and over and over and over again :D
LOL ...just out of curiosity (and please feel free to even ignore the question) when you made your &quot;transition&quot; from catholicism to buddhism (or whatever the transition was for clarity sake) ...what was is it that inspired this?
Was it a turn off of catholicism or a turn on by buddhism? A little of both? neither? shut the hell up and mind your own business? lol j/k

csimon

As a teenager I found the giant hypocrisy of the Catholic Church hard to swallow. Perhaps it was my unique experience, but all I ever saw was money and money and money flowing into the churches and no good ever coming out of it. I saw many churchgoers chatting and gossiping and bickering and comparing who gave what and I never heard much about God or Jesus. I saw the priest driving a brand new Lincoln every year. I saw the local Catholic High School band getting brand new uniforms and instruments all the time. I heard about scandals all over the US with the Catholic church.

As far as the money money money is concernced ...my family has given and perhaps lost fortunes to the catholic church over centuries. My families homes boarder a graveyard so close that it defies the city right of way of 5' on either side of the fence with tombs so close that they actually touch the driveways of 2 homes. That property was given for that purpose of grave sites and the law is waived for the homestead. And on the other side of my family ...a witness who was a close friend of one of my ancestors saw a priest actually hold my ancestors hand as he lay dying so that he could sign over acres upon acres of prime property over to the church only to be sold at a later date to be developed into one of the most prominent parts of the city where I live now. I don't let it bother me much because I don't believe in gathering earthly riches anyway although the temptation is always there.
Also ...as far as the scandals go ...you remember the "catholic altar boy molestations" that took place back in the early 70's?
I was there. It began happening in my church ...the same church I mentioned earlier in this post. St. Mary Magdelene Catholic Church in Abbeville LA. It was allowed to continue by the bishop of that time and moved to a more remote location where my grandmothers family is from ...Henry LA. The molester is Gilbert Gauthier ...former Catholic priest.
I recollect back at that time I myself was an altar boy but beyond the age of his liking. I was not aware that it was happening. I was visiting at my best friends house one afternoon and when I got there I noticed something strange in his face. I asked him what was wrong. He said that he couldn't talk about it but his little brother needed surgery. I asked what kind and he said he wasn't supposed to say but it was anus reconstruction. He then added that Fr. Gauthier spends the night at his house which made absolutely no sense at all at the time. It came to light a few years later down the road when we were told by a newer Msg. that something had happened and it involved allegigations of child molestation.
At that point we were told in religion class that on that day confession would be offered for the first time face to face. I didn't participate but from that moment on it has been offered throughout most of the US. It was later found that the reason behind this was because he was molesting the younger boys (up to around 40 total I think) right in the confessional as he heard confession ...sometimes the confessions of they're own parents. He molested altar boys everywhere from the rectory to they're own homes ...he took them on campouts and he bought them every toy you can imagine including nice 4wheelers ...and he drove a nice sports car.
Years later it all came to a head when one of my other friends brothers found out that his son was one of the boys being molested. He got to the church just after the state troopers and they took his shotgun away from him. I know the guy and I know he did everything he could to get to Gauthier with murderous intentions and I hardly say that I blame him.
At any rate ...years later I saw one of the victims on the Donahue show and Phil Donahue for a brief moment asked him if he believed in God and in the shakiest voice I have ever heard in my life ...he replied "no".
So when I meet anyone who does not believe in God for whatever reason ...I don't knock them.
I can embellish on anything you like if you wish but this may not be the place or the time. I may even remove this post but as for the story of the priest mudd knows where I am and he can vouch for the locations and the name of the child molestor.
Guilbert Gauthier if you are reading this now ...may my God help you you sick son of a bitch.

Sorry just needed to rant for a bit the day isn't going too well.

csimon

ps: and don't you know the "system" released that SOB from prison in texas only for him to re-commit the crime of child molestation and then returned him back to the pen. I tell ya.

primesuspect

5 Dec 2003, 7:14pm

You don't have to be a catholic to love Jesus. In my experience, Catholicism is a monolithic institution designed to extort money from the masses and provide wealth, station, and free will to the officers of the organization, all under the guise of providing spiritual guidance. Yours and countless other stories only serve to corroborate that analysis.

a2jfreak

5 Dec 2003, 8:03pm

I don't blame him either.

There's over 20 years that separate me from my two youngest cousins so they're being brought up to call me Uncle Adam and I feel much closer to them than cousins. I honestly don't believe I could love any children--except my own, of course--any more than I love them. If I found out some walking-dead-man had done something like that to one of them, well . . . he'd no longer be walking.

csimon had this to say
Years later it all came to a head when one of my other friends brothers found out that his son was one of the boys being molested. He got to the church just after the state troopers and they took his shotgun away from him. I know the guy and I know he did everything he could to get to Gauthier with murderous intentions and I hardly say that I blame him.

Thrax

5 Dec 2003, 8:09pm

You know.. This thread is nice.

It's shifted from its original purpose, a whole hell of a lot, but it's remained civilized.

People are still being friendly to one another, telling their stories as they come to them, and everyone's recognizing that the values of another person are something you can't change, only counter with values of your own for the good of discussion.

I just feel.. Good, about this thread.

Geeky1

5 Dec 2003, 8:58pm

It's interesting to hear what people have said about the Catholic church; I'm being raised as a Catholic (until next year, anyhow...), albiet one that almost never goes to church.

You know what? I agree with you. I went to a Catholic school from kindegarten through 5th grade. The Catholic church's policy and actions on a lot of things really bother me. Unfortunately, my parents don't seem to care, so I have to go to church when I'm told, and put up with it for another year... :rolleyes:

RADA

5 Dec 2003, 9:33pm

Simon - Sorry to hear about your friend. I grew up just outside of Boston, MA, so I know what your friend went through. Not personally( see a2jfreak's post about walking dead men), but I had a couple of friends that were altar boys for that sick son of a bitch John Geoghan. I wish I believed in hell, so he could rot there.

Prime, here's one for you. I worked in the sign industry before joining the military. We were working a sign project for the Catholic Archdiocese of Boston. We had to replace one of the signs out in front of one of the biggest churches in Boston. It was Feb, and bitterly cold. We had set up our propane tents and burners to warm the ground for digging. The local priest, bishop, not sure which, invited us in to stay warm, while we waited. He was showing us around the church, extolling the virtues of all the $$ they spent on renovations. "We only used on the best wood for the pews, blah, blah, blah." I asked him "Wouldn't it have been better to use less expensive products, and pass the savings on to people who need it?" He didn't answer, and excused himself. We were there for 3 more days working, he never invited us in again. He even gave us dirty looks as he drove off in his brand new BMW.

Sorry if this flames anyone, but it's true, not an opinion.

-RADA-

primesuspect

5 Dec 2003, 9:36pm

Hey RADA: You can pick up the debate about the catholic church over at keyboardjockey.com - this thread:

http://www.keyboardjockey.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148

Dexter

5 Dec 2003, 10:58pm

Geeky1 had this to say
It's interesting to hear what people have said about the Catholic church; I'm being raised as a Catholic (until next year, anyhow...), albiet one that almost never goes to church.

Well, here's my perspective for you Geeky. I was raised in a good Catholic family, by good Catholic parents who came from good Catholic farm families, of German descent. I attended Catholic school from kindergarten to graduation.

In my teens, when I started to rasie my own questions and doubts about the Christianity that was spoonfed to me since I was a baby, my curiousity and quest for facts was poorly received by my parents, and by my religion teachers at my Catholic high school. I got into many a debate with my religion teachers over the years. Other students felt as I did but were afraid to stand up to the teachers and question what was being taught. I was not afraid. My teachers wanted to fail me in religion (which would have brought down my grade average and knocked me from the honour roll.) But they could not, because when we had tests, I knew the answers to the questions, I had read the biblical teachings and could recite the "facts" they were looking for. If they wanted essays on why this character did this or that, or what Jesus meant by such and such parable, I could give them the answers they wanted. So then, suddenly, essay type questions started appearing on tests that read like this:

"Describe how reading this passage has strengthened and affirmed your belief in Jesus Christ as the Lord your Saviour."

"Explain a time in your life when you felt moved by the Holy Spirit to praise God in a new way."

You get the point. They were looking to subtract marks from anyone who dared t answer as I proceeded to so:

"This question is based on assumptions which are not applicable to me, therefore cannot be answered."

Hmmm, guess who got zero marks on those portions of the tests? I complained to the principal, and my parents, but of course, they were all staunch Catholics too, so there was no support for freedom of belief there. And a student cannot appeal to the school board, only a parent can, so that was that.

One religion teacher used to kick me out of class for asking questions that raised doubt as to the existence of god, the veracity of biblical passages, etc. I thought that if I had questions, the religion teacher would be the one to give me answers. But eventually the answers always came back to the same standard answers:

"You just have to have faith."

"God is all powerful and all knowing."

"That's all right, God loves you anyways and you will be forgiven."

etc. Any questions beyond that were treated with stoney silence, or being kicked out of class.

My parents were not much better, they felt that I could still be "saved." Their idea of saving me was to force me to go to church every week, else they would prohibit me from attending the youth group I belonged to. No church on Sunday meant no youth group on Wednesday. They didn't care if I didn't pray or sing, etc, so long as I went through the routine with everyone. Sit down, stand up, sit down, stand up, shake hands, go get your communion, sit down, stand up, sit down, stand up, go home. I guess they thought that just by being there one day I would suddenly be filled with the holy spirit and he would cleanse of me of my demons. That, and appearances: they didn't have to answer questions from their church friends about where their other son was if I was not there.

At one point, they even made me go to a church youth weekend, under the blackmail that if I did not, I could not attend any weekend activities for my chosen youth group for the rest of the year. So, fine, I went. My "favourite" religion teacher was one of the leaders for this weekend. To make a long story short, I basically approached it like I did those religion classes. I asked a lot of questions. A lot. With a lot of "prove it" and "can you show me some facts to support that" thrown in. When it came time as teenagers to stand up and pledge our chastity to Jesus Christ until marriage, I just stood up and said, "Too Late...." That sent a few leaders into a tizzy, in which they took me aside and told me to "Renew my chastity to Jesus blah blah." So I stood up and said, "Well, they wanted me to renew my chastity, but you know what, sex is a lot of fun." :doh:

My candor was a rallying point for several other youths who were only there because their parents made them come. I beleive that was one of the least successful church youth group weekends as a result. When it was over, my parents were furious, they wanted me to go to the next one, and the next one again, until became a good little Catholic boy again. But the youth group leaders, including my religion teachers, asked that I not return.

After that point, my parents sort of gave up on trying to save me, and even my religion teacher realized it was pointless. Once we all acheived that point of mutual understanding, life was a lot easier on all of us. Oh, Mom still prays for me every day, as she puts it, when I realize I need god he will still be there waiting for me. But I don't fault her for that. That's all she knows.

And that is what has shaped my personal dislike for organized religions. If what they have is such a great thing, why do they have to start indoctrinating kids from birth? Why can't they leave the kids out of it until they are say, 16 years old, and let them find out about it then and make their own choices then? The Catholic church claims to do this with "Confirmation" at age 12. But how many 12 yr old kids who have been brought up in a church all their lives are going to stand up to their parents beliefs then? Not a lot, and when they do, look for the age of Confirmation to be lowered to 10.

The harder you try to force people into a religion, the more are going to rebel against it. If they could just accept that, a lot of teens lives would be a lot less traumatic.

Dexter...

ishiii

5 Dec 2003, 11:47pm

Just a question for all you non believers........
I respect what you feel because that is you perogative, but out of curiostity, why is it that no one says anything when you expess your opinions but when we (believers) do it were told "don't preach at me"???? Just curious.

Enverex

5 Dec 2003, 11:56pm

Leonardo

6 Dec 2003, 12:02am

The harder you try to force people into a religion, the more are going to rebel against it. If they could just accept that, a lot of teens lives would be a lot less traumatic.

Truer words have never been spoken.

My daughter attended a Catholic high school much different from the one you attended, Dexter. My son is studying there now. They are not pressured as you were, thank God.

By the way, we are not Catholic, but Presbyterians. I grew up in another church, with a very narrow, literal interpretation of the Bible. The denomination, while stating that God's love was enough to transform a believer, didn't practice that. There was a whole litany of penny ante behaviors that had to be followed. The fundmental Christian themes of love, respect, and forgiveness were overshadowed by that particular church's cultish doctrine. Having left the church in '83 when I joined the Army, I years later returned to church, but one that I thought was much closer to the way I interpreted the Bible.

We just need to remember that adherence to any religion does necessarily soften all negative traits inherent with human nature. Some people make more progress than others.

I guess the whole point of this post is that we should not through babies with their bath water; and also that we should take care to not to castigate a whole group based on the characteristics of a small group of its members. (And I'm not saying that you were slamming Catholics, Dexter.)

Black Hawk

6 Dec 2003, 12:11am

Well since this has turned into a religion discussion I guess I an add my $0.02 to that.

My parents are from diffrent religions. My dad was Catholic since he can remember and my mom is a 7th day Adventist. Since I was a baby my mom took me to church with her. I basically just went cause she made me. Later on when I'm 13 or something I just got bored of it cause it was too damn long (3-4hrs) so I went with my dad to catholic church. Yay! 1 hr. Then I realized it's the same thing every year and it never really motivated me. Now I just stopped going alltogether. IMHO religions contradict each other. Each one saying that they are the true religion, blah, blah, blah. Then the restrictions like no eating pork, shell type fish, doing anything for yourself on saturday like cooking, watching tv/PC, buying stuff, working, etc.

As for God, sad to say I've kinda lost faith. With the stuff that's happened to me, my mom always says to pray and blah, blah, blah. Well that didn't work. They say he's there with you in your worse time. BS! I guess he was on a break or something cause at times when I was with a knife to my wrists are just staring at some pills, nobody/nothing helped. I believe he's there but nothing more. I question more now. I ask my parents why couldn't we be rich, she says cause for God it wasn't meant to be. Well then why the **** it's meant to be for all the other people? Since I've known about God since I was born, it's hard just to ignore or forget it.

keto

6 Dec 2003, 12:24am

David,

I've never done any more than 'answer the question' UNLESS a civilized discussion on the subject could obviously be had, and I have had any number of them over the years. I do not believe but have full respect for those who do.

Because of who I am, I have, at times, allowed myself to be preached to. At length. Without showing my disgust. Other times, I've walked away or slammed the door. I do understand that some believe their purpose is to spread the "word", but when it's totally one sided and without room for discussion, thank you good bye get off my property. If I went to your house and you started telling me how to live my life and thrusting a bible under my nose, well, it's your house I'm in and I will choose to either listen or leave. It's happened to me. That would be how I see 'preaching', as used above. On the other hand, if the subject came up as an obvious segue in the flow of conversation, and the conversation continued to be two-sided, well, that's not preaching.

I would never ever be the first to raise the subject and so couldn't except in someone's wildest stretching of the terminology be said to have ever preached at anyone on the subject. Again, differentiating discussion from preaching.

Bottom line, I think, is what people perceive as 'preaching'. A discussion where both sides can air their views and each respects the others' is not preaching. Uninvited initiation of the subject and fear or loathing of the subject by the receiver is probably what leads to someone 'accusing' another of preaching, using the word in a negative sense.

The word preach is not, in and of itself, negative to me, just to be clear on the subject as I've probably used it somewhat inappropriately in the above text, trying my best to answer the question as I see it.

ishiii

6 Dec 2003, 1:14am

Well keto;
To be totally honest i am on the same plane as you.
Non believer, who thinks the golden rule and liven yer life to a high standard is a good thing to do.
The previous message I posted in this thread was posted by the wife to be, not I. Maybe should have made that clear at the time.
Was odd how it went down. Was talking to my brother in Halifax threw a headset, and browsing shortmedia. The wife to be was sitting beside me. My brother just found faith and we were haven a religous conversation, in which I was the odd one out. The women wanted to add her two cents into this thread.

Religion and politics are two things best left alone. Thats a little rule I try to live my life by.

keto

6 Dec 2003, 1:55am

Nahhh, there was no clarification needed there. This discussion has more or less returned to its track, thank go ... goodness ;), no problem in the least with mrs-ishiii-to-be being heard on the subject :)

a2jfreak

6 Dec 2003, 5:59am

Sure, you believe there is nothing.
"We" who? Christians don't force our faith down your throats . . . some, perhaps, but definitely not all or even most. I will say that I have met more hard-nosed unbelievers than I have believers. I've only met a couple of believers that wouldn't listen to the "other side" but I've spoken--and witnessed--many unbelievers that won't listen to the "other side."

NightShade737 had this to say
Because we don't believe in anything. We dont force anyone to go anywhere. We dont take money to do it. We dont base out lives around it. We are not tied in to a set of rules.

Saying "there is no God" is not being realistic in my point of view. From where I stand saying "there is no God" is foolish, but saying "there is a God" is realistic.

What people say about not believing in God, it isn't preaching, it's being realitic.

In certain situations your statement is correct.
If I don't believe that there are "boogy men" under my bed I can say "that doesn't exist" and go on my merry way. However, if I say "God doesn't exist" to someone who believes in God then there is something there.

Sure non-believers (some, not all, just as some but not all Christians do this) try to make others "see" or believe as they do. You're confusing disbelief in God as having no belief, but the belief is that there is nothing . . . a belief is a belief is a belief, whether it's a belief that there's a God or not.

When you just say something doesn't exist and that it has no reasoning, there is nothing there, just carrying on as normal. But saying something exists and trying to tell others about it is actually something, so basically, you cant say "dont preach to me" about non-believers because non-beliviers don't go around trying to make people believe something, or make people abide to a way of life. Religion is basically ignored, not preached, so thats why you cant get that response.

Actually, it comes up rather often . . . normally brought about by atheists that don't want God--or even spirituality--acknowledged publically in any way, shape, form or fashion.

The only times it comes up that people dont believe in god is in debates (discussions?) like this.

You would most likely consider me "religious." Where am I forcing my beliefs on you?

Don't make blanket statements about an entire group or class of people. I don't blanket statement all atheists nor agnostics.

non-believers will rarely if ever mention or talk about any type of religion or god in day to day life for the above reasons, so it doesn't affect anyone else. Where are religic (er..) people do things which impose on other people...

It should always be two-sided.
How can one expect others to care about what is being presented if he doesn't not also show respect for the other's beliefs?

Many seem to confuse disagreement and disrespect.
I will disagree with anyone that doesn't believe in God, but that doesn't mean I am showing them disrespect. Likewise, some will disagree with my belief in God, but that doesn't mean they're showing me disrespect.

The Bible handles this rather well . . . and it handles it by example. See, God gave us free will. He allows us to choose to believe in Him or not. He allows us to live for Him or not. If God will allow people to believe or disbelieve in Him, who am I to say you cannot do what God as already allowed for? Doesn't mean I want you to disbelieve or that I even "like" it, but I won't try to "convert" someone. I will share with them--if they would like--my experiences and why I believe, but I will not force my beliefs on anyone else out of respect and because of my favorite rule--the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

keto had this to say
[B]
Because of who I am, I have, at times, allowed myself to be preached to. At length. Without showing my disgust. Other times, I've walked away or slammed the door. I do understand that some believe their purpose is to spread the "word", but when it's totally one sided and without room for discussion, thank you good bye get off my property. If I went to your house and you started telling me how to live my life and thrusting a bible under my nose, well, it's your house I'm in and I will choose to either listen or leave. It's happened to me. That would be how I see 'preaching', as used above. On the other hand, if the subject came up as an obvious segue in the flow of conversation, and the conversation continued to be two-sided, well, that's not preaching.

tycho

6 Dec 2003, 6:41am

Well I have stayed out of this discussion for a number of reasons, but I am ready to voice my own opinion now...

It turns out that my religious life has greatly mirrored prime's and dexter's, even to the point that i acted very similarly as dexter in my catholic elementary school. Now i personally did not start nearly as many discussions in class and didn't have the principle breathing down my neck, but when it came time to be confirmed I simply said "No, I don't believe this" My mother, for the next 5 or 6 years, said "you need to look into getting confirmed" to me pretty much once a quarter... needless to say it never happened. I did attend catholic high school, but that experience only helped to strenghten my dislike for the catholic church and their beliefs. Since going on to college I have only attended mass on easter and x-mas to apease my mother (and i haven't participated)

Now I am an engineer and a scientist, so obviously for me to believe in a god I would need some proof or justification... in the last 8 or 9 years I have yet to find one shred of evidence that would convince me of a gods exsistence.

The last few years whenever someone has asked what religion I am I have simply replied "well i was raised catholic, but i no long believe in any of that" Ironically this thread has been going on while I have been going through a period of personal discovery into my own religious beliefs. Thanks to a lot of reading and a very fullfilling conversation with prime, I can now say with absolute certainty that I can be classified as a buddhist.

The buddhist teachings have resonated with me. I was unaware for the last few years that there was in fact a very large group of people out there that felt the same way that i do about god, the afterlife and the like. If you'd like, you can now consider me to be SM's second resident buddhist

Man it feels good to get some of those things out :D

Dexter

6 Dec 2003, 7:25am

ishiii had this to say
Just a question for all you non believers........
I respect what you feel because that is you perogative, but out of curiostity, why is it that no one says anything when you expess your opinions but when we (believers) do it were told "don't preach at me"???? Just curious.

I've only ever said words to that effect to the Jehova's Witnesses who have come uninvited to my door, after they would not take my polite response of not being interested in what they had to say. My overall opinion JW's is poor: I understand that their belief is that their own salvation lies in spreading their messafe actively to others, but really....If we want it, we will come to you. A lifetime of getting a door slammed in the face every 3rd weekend is not what I would have in mind as a path to heaven.

As pointed out by others, some faiths are very respectful of indivdual's right to disbelieve...although they can be very "superior" about it. Others can be very casual about it.
About a 2 years ago, a nice clean cut young fellow with a white shirt, black tie and a name badge on was haging around and chatting up strangers at a bus exchange at the mall near my house. It was late at night, I was on my way home from a long, long day at work. I had him "made" in about 10 seconds as a Mormon, doing his 'mission' work. Sure enough, in a few minutes, he made his way over to me, and started up a very casual conversation with me...which I cut short almost immediately by saying " I am not in the mood to be proselytized to, sorry." He was a bit surprised by that comment, and then had a look of resignation as he realized he would have to move on to another. He said "OK" and started to move away. I said "But that doesn't mean I'm not in the mood for a casual conversation with a stranger, I'm just not in the mood to hear about religion."

He was very surprised by that, but soon realized that although I was rejecting his attempt to preach to me, I did not reject his attempt to be friendly or strike up a conversation. I asked him to tell me about himself, where he was from, how his mission was going, what his future plans were, etc. He seemed genuinely happy to have someone who would listen for a while, even if it wasn't to his message of Christ. He was having a tough go of it that day, and the ongoing rejection from people he was trying to reach out to was getting hard to take. It made his day though to share that conversation with me, even if it did not convert me to his faith, but just as a candid personal interaction with a stranger, which an be a very valuable thing to have after a night of having people laugh at you, curse at you or ignore you. He was a nice, polite, intelligent and well spoken young man, and we chatted for about 20 minutes until my bus came.

To me, that young man's acceptance of the fact that I was not wanting to be "preached to" gives his belief system a lot more validation than the ones who knock on your day and refuse to take a polite no-thank-you for an answer. He could accept that not everyone is going to believe as he does, and still respect the person's right to do so. The JW's don't seem to get that.

I know not every Christian is a JW...but to a lot of people who don't know any better, they make a convenient stereotype for those who wish to poke fun at Christianity.

Dexter...

a2jfreak

6 Dec 2003, 7:49am

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are not Christians. Just so that's cleared up by anyone that is confused. They give off the appearance of being Christian but they are not.

keto

6 Dec 2003, 7:55am

ummm got any reference on that or is that an opinion?

Dexter

6 Dec 2003, 8:23am

a2jfreak had this to say
Jevoh's Witnesses and Mormons are not Christians. Just so that's cleared up by anyone that is confused. They give off the appearance of being Christian but they are not.

Well, let's see, the proper name for the Mormon Faith is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Christ....Christian...seems pretty clear to me. Their own FAQ Page (http://www.mormon.org/question/faq/category/answer/0,9777,1601-1-56-2,00.html) has something to say on the matter, why don't you see what they have to say about whether they are Christian or not?

Same for Jehova's Witnesses, they believe in Jesus Christ (http://www.watchtower.org/library/jt/index.htm) , therefore they are Christians. Pick up a Watchtower magazine (http://www.watchtower.org/library/rq/index.htm?article=article_03.htm) sometime and see if there is any reference to Christ or Christianity in there ;)

The basic tenet of Christianity is the belief that a man named Jesus Christ lived about 2000 years ago in Palestine, and that he was the "Son of God." Both JW's and LDS's believe that. They way they believe that varies, but there are so many different beliefs among the Protestant faiths. Just because their Christian beliefs are different than your Christian beliefs does not make them "not Christians."

Dexter...

keto

6 Dec 2003, 8:27am

Well, that was what I had thought, based on both reading and discussions I had had in the past. Thx Dex. a2, you threw me for a bit of a loop there....

a2jfreak

6 Dec 2003, 8:37am

Step off my market. :) I have the market on pedantism cornered, bro! ;D

Mormons are not Christians because they add their own teachings (Book of Mormon, Mormon Doctrine, Journals of Discourse, etc.) that are contradictory to the Bible. Research Mormonism and you'll see.

Jehovah's Witnesses are similar.

Whether one believes in Jesus does not make him, nor his belief, Christian. Primesuspect himself said he thought Jesus was on his way to enlightenment . . . Prime believes in (the existence of) Jesus, but he's not a Christian.

Also, just because literature makes reference to Christ or Christians does not mean it is Christian literature nor does it mean it was published nor produced by Christians. Atheistic literature makes mention of Christ and Christians but it isn't Christian.

Your understanding of what Christianity is based on is flawed. Christianity isn't just based on the belief that Christ came to earth X number of years ago and is the Son of God. It's much more than that. It's the acceptance of Christ as your Lord and Savior. It's the belief that He was born of a virgin. It's recognizing the cleansing power of the blood He shed. It's the love you have for God and his Son.

One cannot add to Christianity your own likes, or take away the things you don't like and still (truthfully) claim to be Christian.

keto

6 Dec 2003, 8:42am

I disagree but that would be debating so I'll leave it at that, other than to say that, in general, both mormons and jw's are accepted as being christian in western culture.

a2jfreak

6 Dec 2003, 8:52am

I hope you don't believe I was talking ill of them . . . just stating that they're not Christians.

Mormons are some of the finest people you'll ever meet. They're family-oriented, honest and caring. All wonderful qualities to possess.

Dexter

6 Dec 2003, 10:01am

a2jfreak had this to say

Mormons are not Christians because they add their own teachings (Book of Mormon, Mormon Doctrine, Journals of Discourse, etc.) that are contradictory to the Bible. Research Mormonism and you'll see.

Jehovah's Witnesses are similar.

Yes, they have added their own teachings...but how does that make them Not Christian? Who has stood in judgement of this?

a2jfreak had this to say

Also, just because literature makes reference to Christ or Christians does not mean it is Christian literature nor does it mean it was published nor produced by Christians. Atheistic literature makes mention of Christ and Christians but it isn't Christian.

Indeed. But when the documents that outline their beliefs say that they are Christian, then why do you say that they are not? What makes you the arbiter of who is Christian and who is not?

a2jfreak had this to say

Your understanding of what Christianity is based on is flawed. Christianity isn't just based on the belief that Christ came to earth X number of years ago and is the Son of God. It's much more than that. It's the acceptance of Christ as your Lord and Savior. It's the belief that He was born of a virgin. It's recognizing the cleansing power of the blood He shed. It's the love you have for God and his Son.

Ok, then show me where Mormons and Jehova's do not believe or agree with any of those statements? I suspect that any of them you ask will say that they accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour, that they believe he is the product of divine conception and that he gave his blood so that they too could be saved.

a2jfreak had this to say

One cannot add to Christianity your own likes, or take away the things you don't like and still (truthfully) claim to be Christian.

Oh? Tell that to the Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Uniteds, Episcopilians, Baptists, Adventists, Methodists etc. They all varied the teachings of the Catholic church during the Protestant reforms, yet would you argue their Christianity?

This page (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deno.htm) from an organization for religious tolerance list both Jehova's and Mormons among the 15 major wings of Christianity.

So, again I ask, according to whom are they not Christian?

Pehaps if you want to continue this, we should do so in PM, so as not to engage in debate in this thread and take it much further off track. [/quote]

Dexter...

a2jfreak

6 Dec 2003, 10:18am

This is straying far outside of the topic of "Do you believe in a God & Why?" so I am asking you to PM me any further questions/comments related to this.

According to me. That was me writing those statements, not someone else. :)

Dexter had this to say
a2jfreak had this to say

Mormons are not Christians because they add their own teachings (Book of Mormon, Mormon Doctrine, Journals of Discourse, etc.) that are contradictory to the Bible. Research Mormonism and you'll see.

Jehovah's Witnesses are similar.

Again I ask...according to whom?

I could start a cult and in the literature say "We're Christian" but if the actual teachings of my cult are contradictory to the Bible how could I be Christian?

I never said Mormon/JW's are "bad." I just said they're not Christian.

a2jfreak had this to say

Also, just because literature makes reference to Christ or Christians does not mean it is Christian literature nor does it mean it was published nor produced by Christians. Atheistic literature makes mention of Christ and Christians but it isn't Christian.

Indeed. But when the documents that outline their beliefs say that they are Christian, then why do you say that they are not? What makes you the arbiter of who is Christian and who is not?

I said in my earlier post to look at the Book of Mormon, look at the Mormon Doctriine and look at the Journals of Discourse and you'll see that there are teachings that are contradictory to the Bible, so even if they believe in the virgin birth they also are taught things that are wrong. The Bible says, "you can believe a lie and be damned." Well, if you believe that Joseph Smith is on par with Jesus--along with other things . . . read the books--then you're not practicing what the Bible teaches and therefore you cannot be a Christian.

a2jfreak had this to say

Your understanding of what Christianity is based on is flawed. Christianity isn't just based on the belief that Christ came to earth X number of years ago and is the Son of God. It's much more than that. It's the acceptance of Christ as your Lord and Savior. It's the belief that He was born of a virgin. It's recognizing the cleansing power of the blood He shed. It's the love you have for God and his Son.

Ok, then show me where Mormons and Jehova's do not believe or agree with any of those statements? I suspect that any of them you ask will say that they accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour, that they believe he is the product of divine conception and that he gave his blood so that they too could be saved.

Not sure why you quoted this and made no statements. Did you just forget to type, or just left in my quote? I'll be happy to address any questions you might have.

a2jfreak had this to say

One cannot add to Christianity your own likes, or take away the things you don't like and still (truthfully) claim to be Christian.

Enverex

6 Dec 2003, 10:24am

a2jfreak had this to say
Actually, it comes up rather often . . . normally brought about by atheists that don't want God--or even spirituality--acknowledged publically in any way, shape, form or fashion

Precisely. Atheists objecting to being preched too. Wouldn't you object to something that has no rationality behind it and no solid reasoning which people kept trying to force on you and everyone else?

NS

a2jfreak

6 Dec 2003, 10:31am

Maybe this too should be taken to PM so as to not muddy up this thread.

If you care to discuss this any futher PM me, I'll be happy to debate things with you. :)

NightShade737 had this to say
a2jfreak had this to say
Actually, it comes up rather often . . . normally brought about by atheists that don't want God--or even spirituality--acknowledged publically in any way, shape, form or fashion

Precisely. Atheists objecting to being preched too. Wouldn't you object to something that has no rationality behind it and no solid reasoning which people kept trying to force on you and everyone else?

NS

Thrax

6 Dec 2003, 2:28pm

I've found Buddhism too.

I talk to Prime a little bit about six weeks ago, and read what he had to say about it, looked at the values he expressed, and the values I expressed... And I found that the only thing different between him and I as far as Buddhism was concerned, was the fact that he used the title, and I didn't.

Buddhism deeply coincides and resonates with the set of beliefs I've had most of my cognizant life. It resonates with the philosophies I love to read and listen about, and it strikes a hearty chord with the way I "Feel" about things...Beyond logic and rationality.

Since then, I've been reading a lot online about the history of the Buddhist faith, from the Council at Rajagaha, the Mahasanghika, to the basics of becoming a Bodhisattva or Arhat.

I'm about ready to make the jump into reading a couple of editions of the Pali texts, just to make sure I don't lost a whole lot in translation.

Buddhism in and of itself has opened my eyes to "Higher powers." I've always figured there was a force of some sort, a higher working order. The entire universe is built from categorical organization, smallest to biggest. Everything has quarks, and neutrinos, which make up parts of the nuclei, which make part of the atom, which make part of molecules, which make part of cells or compounds, which make parts of organs or structures, which makes part of the whole, which goes into the world, which fits into the milky way, which fits into the universe, which fits into............................................

It has to fit into something. I never quite could have explained it right as Prime did, that is appeasing electricity or heat, but that's roughly how I feel it myself.

I feel there has to be something there, but I do not feel that I can pray to it, request things from it, give to it. I don't think I can make it happy, or really do anything but accept its existence.

I also don't believe in reincarnation, and although Buddhism does have that, it also says that I can not believe it should I wish that.

Buddhism's teachings of the true, ethical, and virtuous life without the improbable, unproven, and contradicting ideology of other religions just appeals to me.

Lincoln

6 Dec 2003, 3:23pm

primesuspect had this to say
Prime doesn't have a religion :D

It's no secret that I am a follower of Buddha's teachings, so I'll say this: Buddha in his infinite wisdom did not say anything about God. He did not say "There is a god" or "there is not a god"... He just smiled. Upon acheiving enlightenment, God will be figured out. We don't worry about it. God is a force, not a personality, so it cannot be appealed to. We tend to smirk at the western thought's tendency to personify god by calling god "him" and "he" and praying to "him" and asking "him" for this or that. Would you pray to light? heat? Electricity? Can you draw a picture of electricity? Can you ask heat to cure your cancer?

We are worried about fixing ourselves. The god force is omnipresent and thus does not concern us any more than making heat happy does. :D

:eek2: Precisely!

Yeah, my thoughts very closely mirror yours, Thrax.

/me goes to find a book on Buddhism

primesuspect

6 Dec 2003, 3:33pm

For all you people who are curious about buddhism, let me just say that many many books in english on the subject just plain SUCK. In my experience, books on buddhism can be divided into three categories:

The major category: Books like "Blue Jean Buddha" written by Americans or by people who think they know what Americans like to read, about how Buddhism is love and peace and happy and basically "hippy". I lump them all together into a category I call "California Buddhists".. The books make this lifestyle seem silly and frivolous.

The minor category: Books written by 80-100 year old chinese/japanese/thai/whatever monks that are long, rambling, dry, and just plain unreadable. "The Way To Buddhahood" comes to mind... Terrible.

The minor MINOR category: The few gems out there for rational, thinking, non-hippies. "The Heart Sutra" by Thich Nhat Hahn comes to mind.

Basically all I'm saying is that if you read a book that sucks, please don't take that book as being all that this path has to offer. I tried reading "The Way To Buddhahood" as an introduction to Buddhism a couple of years ago and it was so bad that it turned me away from Buddhism for a good solid year. I read Blue Jean Buddha and also started to think this was a big joke, but then I gave other books a chance.

Dexter

6 Dec 2003, 5:56pm

a2jfreak had this to say
his is straying far outside of the topic of "Do you believe in a God & Why?" so I am asking you to PM me any further questions/comments related to this.

**Note that I had already invited you to PM, but I guess you didn't see it because of a posting problem I had (see below.)

a2jfreak had this to say
According to me. That was me writing those statements, not someone else. :)

Well, I'm glad we cleared that up. So basically you have been stating your opinion, and I have been stating and sourcing commonly held facts as agreed upon by objective sources.

a2jfreak had this to say
Not sure why you quoted this and made no statements. Did you just forget to type, or just left in my quote? I'll be happy to address any questions you might have.

I had a bit of trouble when I was typing that, somewhere along the line I hit "return" and the message posted itself before I was finished. I then went into edit and continued to type. The edit took a while, because I was actually researchng the fatcs and sourcing them for you, as opposed to just stating my opinions on the fly. Obviously you were online and replied before I finished. In case you missed it, the last bit said

from Dexter's previous post:

a2jfreak had this to say

One cannot add to Christianity your own likes, or take away the things you don't like and still (truthfully) claim to be Christian.

Oh? Tell that to the Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Uniteds, Episcopilians, Baptists, Adventists, Methodists etc. They all varied the teachings of the Catholic church during the Protestant reforms, yet would you argue their Christianity?

This page (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deno.htm) from an organization for religious tolerance list both Jehova's and Mormons among the 15 major wings of Christianity.

So, again I ask, according to whom are they not Christian?

Pehaps if you want to continue this, we should do so in PM, so as not to engage in debate in this thread and take it much further off track.

So, yeah, I'll PM you, but there is really not much to debate here. You have a certain belief or opinon, I have facts. I don't want to debate your beliefs, you are entitled to them, but when you put your opnion out as a fact, it is fair game to be countered with facts, which is all I have done. I don't intend to change your mind, just to make sure anyone else reading this thread can have good factual sources to base their own opinions on.

Cheers,

Dexter...

a2jfreak

6 Dec 2003, 6:04pm

Dexter: I'm tired of this mess crowding the thread. I'll reply in PM.

But for anyone who does want the facts, read what I told directed Dexter towards: Book of Mormon, Mormon Doctrine and the Journals of Discourse.

profdlp

6 Dec 2003, 6:38pm

Defining "Christian" is like defining "Libertarian". Put two different sub-sects of either in the same room and it might be hard to find much in common. It reminds me of a saying about the political situation in South Vietnam in the 1960's: "Any two people who generally agreed constituted a political party; three people who agreed constituted a party and a faction".

On proselytizing: No one likes pushy people, whether they're selling soap or salvation. Again, using an illustration from the world of politics: Thomas Jefferson felt it pointless to try and convince anyone of anything purely by arguing. He felt it far more effective to merely point them in the direction of the same books and ideas which had influenced his own thinking. If they were reasonable and intelligent men they would likely come to the same conclusion that he (Jefferson) had. I think parents who want to influence their children to Christianity would be far better served by giving their kids a bible and ask them "What do you think?". A reasoned (non-pushy) discussion about any questions the kids had would be far more likely to yield the results they were seeking.

I grew up in a church where (like others have mentioned) there seemed to be more of an emphasis on petty little rules than on the "Big Picture" message of Christianity itself. We weren't supposed to drink, smoke, dance, go to "Hollywood" movies, or do business with any establishment which sold liquor (including places like Restaurants, Bowling Alleys, and Pro sports stadiums - there were a disproportionate number of College Football fans in our church, since there was no "official" drinking allowed at the games). Before a serious illness a few years ago, I was heavily into bodybuilding. My hero, Bill Pearl, advised beginners to start working out and not worry initially about other factors. He reasoned that as you grew as a bodybuilder, bad habits would fall away naturally. Most churches could learn a lot from that attitude.

Xenogeared

7 Dec 2003, 5:50am

wow, ok so i came in kinda late. well maybe its because i've been avoiding this thread because of all the hell that went on during the old icrontic debate forums (and the main reason is stopped going there before the fall of icrontic)

Ok so let's see, where to start?

Well I don't believe in God. The reason why is a very long and detailed one that started with a long talk with a Spiritualist. His speech "God : The Ultimate Rapist" opened my eyes to faults in the reasoning I'd been fed my whole life. What made me leave the Catholic church however was a video game... yep a video game. If you can't guess it from my name, it was the game Xenogears. I began thinking about how everything i believed in could be a lie that is used to control people.

I haven't settled on a religion to follow, but like Thrax, Buddhism is definitely hitting home with how I feel. I'm not a Buddhist however. In fact I don't know what I am. I borrow things from so many pagan religions that it has become a nice mixture. I believe in myself. I believe that somewhere inside me I have the power to do anything. That there is something deep inside driving me forward. I do pray, I find myself constantly thanking the earth for producing everything I need to survive.

Overall I keep an open mind, but if people begin preaching and pushing their "Have you found Jesus" crap down my throat, I go off on them. Like the other day in my public speaking class. The topic for the speech was an informative/persuasive speech. It had to be audience centered, and what gets me is that I put down the fact that I don't believe in God/Jesus on the questionaires. But the guy decided that he would go ahead and discredit himself by preaching about Jesus for 20 minutes. False reasoning number 1: believing in Jesus won't automatically make your life better. false reasoning number 2: all lucky things aren't miracles performed by God... and I can go on and on. Sorry about this last paragraph, I wasn't allowed to slap the jerk for wasting my time and I gotta get it out somehow, besides the the review i turned in.

godzilla525

7 Dec 2003, 9:08am

Xenogeared had this to say
...long talk with a Spiritualist. His speech "God : The Ultimate Rapist" opened my eyes to faults in the reasoning I'd been fed my whole life. What made me leave the Catholic church however was a video game... yep a video game. If you can't guess it from my name, it was the game Xenogears. I began thinking about how everything i believed in could be a lie that is used to control people....

I borrow things from so many pagan religions that it has become a nice mixture. I believe in myself. I believe that somewhere inside me I have the power to do anything. That there is something deep inside driving me forward. I do pray, I find myself constantly thanking the earth for producing everything I need to survive.

False reasoning number 1: believing in Jesus won't automatically make your life better. false reasoning number 2: all lucky things aren't miracles performed by God... and I can go on and on. Sorry about this last paragraph, I wasn't allowed to slap the jerk for wasting my time and I gotta get it out somehow, besides the the review i turned in.

I'm not sure what a spirtualist actually is. Is it someone like a theologian, counselor, advisor, or what have you; or is it someone that picks random stuff form various religions and superstitions and helps you schedule ceremonies around your occupation... or something in between?

In any case if I was talking to a pastor who called Buddha a rapist I'd be getting a second opinion... anytime anyone starts poo-poo-ing other beliefs and ideas or throwing around attention-getters like that a red flag gets thrown in my mind... blanket statements like that are dangerous for everyone.

Anytime anyone asks you to follow or support them you should put your critical thinking cap on and wonder why and determine who ultimately benefits...and of potential disaster.

The only rapists I see here are the people and groups throughout the years that have misinterpreted, twisted the meaning of, and misused religion for personal financial or political gain. The Catholic church used to be notorious for this...most people didn't have books, couldn't read, and had no other choice than to believe what the church told them. The invention of the printing press ended that, and in fact the Bible was actually contraband in some places. These days there's certain number of Muslem sects that have been similarly deceived.

It's also interesting that a particular group of people left a particular country in search of religious freedom, but it wasn't long after that they repeated the error. I remember a particular copy of the Bible still in existence from the period: The cover was well worn, but the pages were clean, new, and still sticking together...

Pulling customized bits and pieces from pagan religions is pretty much a no-no in Christianity... it takes over: Christmas for example: people often forget the core basis as a result and end up doing pretty disgusting things... I don't recall the three kings trampling each other for the last $40 DVD player in Wal-Mart. That's a wonderful lesson to teach our children, isn't it? :shakehead It makes me sick.

On #1: Believing in Jesus won't make your life better.
True. Nothing makes you a social outcast faster. A lot of people get suspended or kicked out of school for it. A lot of people are tortured for it. A lot of people are killed for it. It's made a lot of peoples' lives a living hell, usually at the hands of the rapists I cited.

On #2: Yeah... I can't prove anything from my previous post as being acts of God... there were a lot of odd, unrelated events shortly after the death of my grandmother that I really can't attribute to anything else... as science has advanced, the interpretation of the Bible has changed, but the text it contains has yet to be disproved.

removed extraneous comma :scratch:

Leonardo

7 Dec 2003, 3:54pm

Word from a moderator:

Thanks to all for keeping this thread positive by avoiding flaming, disrespect, and ad hominum attacks.

Leonardo

:wave:

Xenogeared

8 Dec 2003, 12:32am

godzilla525 : the rapist part is a metapor. he used it to compare certain religions ways of forcing you to do what God says or you're going to Hell.

Spiritualism - Its hard for me to explain since he only spoke briefly about it. It's his faith, he believes in his spirit as having strong power or something.

"There has been a lot of investigation concerning Spiritualism, but not about Spiritualism in general. The early and later researchers were all concerned about how to prove or disprove Spiritualistic mediums, the Spiritual world, the eventually afterlife or to explain strange phenomena's that occur during seances, or PK and telekinesis, among other related phenomena which all are claimed to rest upon spiritual or (occult) mental power. Those who have been (and indeed still is) investigating this, are called psychic researchers. "

On #2: Yeah... I can't prove anything from my previous post as being acts of God... there were a lot of odd, unrelated events shortly after the death of my grandmother that I really can't attribute to anything else... as science has advanced, the interpretation of the Bible has changed, but the text it contains has yet to be disproved.

what i'm trying to get at is that all religions would explain those events differently. so how are you able to justify 1 reason by saying it was an act of one god while another might justifying by saying it was an act of another god.

if you look back into the history of mankind you will see the rise and fall of multiple gods and goddesses. What makes those different than the current gods? I think it's just because science has yet to prove that they don't exist yet.

godzilla525

8 Dec 2003, 2:10am

Ok, there's science involved then... Thanks for clearing that up.

My current stance on miracles and acts of God is I can't prove one way or the other... so I just chalk it up as divine influence by default until it can be proven otherwise.

I doubt that science will really ever be able to confirm or deny the existence of God (at least not for a very, very long time), which suits me just fine. :)

MachineGunKelly

8 Dec 2003, 7:06pm

Government spokesman: "I can neither confirm nor deny the charges that the President believes in God. The fact that he invokes God to bless you all and The United States of America at every opportunity should not be taken as an indication of religious fact, belief, or corroberation. Nor are they the views of this administration".

Please exit through the door marked 'In God We Trust'. Thank you. :)

Shivian

9 Dec 2003, 1:32am

Well seems I'm a little late in the discussion but here's my view:

If a God exists, then aren't we being a bit conceited thinking that he/she/? would guide or watch or assist us in a universe this size? To me it just doesn't add up.

profdlp

9 Dec 2003, 2:23am

If a God exists, wouldn't He be such a superior being that we could never begin to understand His motives? I think once you make the leap of faith it takes to believe in God you have to put aside some of your questions.

This is coming from someone who has had many doubts and is still struggling to regain his faith. I'm certainly not offering any concrete answers...
:wave:

primesuspect

9 Dec 2003, 3:05am

My thoughts about god can be found on the sister of this thread over at keyboardjockey:

http://www.keyboardjockey.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=141

Shivian, I think you would be particularly interested in what I have to say.

csimon

9 Dec 2003, 3:36am

Shivian had this to say
Well seems I'm a little late in the discussion but here's my view:

If a God exists, then aren't we being a bit conceited thinking that he/she/? would guide or watch or assist us in a universe this size? To me it just doesn't add up.
Not at all ...God created us in his image and gave us dominion over all things in heaven and the universe. It's in Genesis that way.
God also gives us the 10 commandments in Genesis ...so if there is no God then do we still have to adhere to the commandments?
Of course we do.

rjerominek

9 Dec 2003, 3:37am

Although I should not be the one commenting on god or any religious discussions. I just wanted to pass along the thought that I have been reading this and have found a lot of very interesting points of view. I must confess that I have been to church all of 5 times in my life, all of which I have been very bored. I been lead to believe that there is a god all of my life, mainly because of my parents telling me so. I know one thing that I entirely believe, is that I believe in myself. Keep in mind that if you let yourself down no one will bring you back up. The only one who can do it is you. Now me......What I do is provide others with things. I enjoy giving people things that they need and doing for others, things they cannot. That is my motivation. That is my guideance. Make any sense? Probably not, but to me Happiness, and the reward of ....... Well I don't know but a good feeling inside.

csimon

9 Dec 2003, 3:48am

rjerominek had this to say
Although I should not be the one commenting on god or any religious discussions .... On the contrary ...that's what this thread is for ...glad to hear from you!

Shivian

9 Dec 2003, 9:41am

csimon had this to say
Shivian had this to say
Well seems I'm a little late in the discussion but here's my view:

If a God exists, then aren't we being a bit conceited thinking that he/she/? would guide or watch or assist us in a universe this size? To me it just doesn't add up.
Not at all ...God created us in his image and gave us dominion over all things in heaven and the universe. It's in Genesis that way.
God also gives us the 10 commandments in Genesis ...so if there is no God then do we still have to adhere to the commandments?
Of course we do.
I don't believe breaking the commandments has any real consequence. That's not to say I do break them but I am saying there are plenty of people who do and nothing of any significance happens to them. So of what worth are they? People don't learn right from wrong if someone says "Do this because it is the right thing to do" rather than "Do this because it is the right thing to do and if you don't XXX will happen to you". Are we going to hell? What if there is no hell?

I don't believe in heaven and hell. I see my grandfather dying of old age, diabetes and losing his mind, his way in life, and I think when he goes to heaven, will he be a vegetable there too? If so what is the point? Who decides what stage of his life is represented in heaven? Does God put him in heaven remembering all the good he did in life? But we learn so much from the good and bad.

Say you were in a car accident. That could have a profound influence on who you are after that point in your life. Does God remove that from you?

As I said before (I am an engineer too I should point out), too many things don't add up. I chose not to believe because I don't see any consequence in that course of action.

EDIT: Prime I will do... had a little peek and that looks a similar road.

EyesOnly

9 Dec 2003, 2:18pm

Though i don't remember much about the commandments i do remember that most of them are similar to the laws in sweden and prolly other countries as well. Seing as breaking the laws gets you in jail maybe that's what hell refers to. Maybe all they wanted was for people to obey the laws.

csimon

9 Dec 2003, 2:41pm

Earthly/animal-like existence and spiritual existence are two totally different things ...spiritually we have no body and no earthly functions so disease and anything else like that doesn't exist. On earth the body is a vessel.

Straight_Man

9 Dec 2003, 3:21pm

Well, I think that as we are able we could and should contribute to help fill what we see as real needs if the ones being helped also see those things as needs. IF they do not, they will see what we think of as a gift as impositions and intrusions. OTOH, if they do see the need fulfilled and contribute in some way also-- a shared fulfilling of need shared and viewed by both ends as a NEED, then we have new friends out of it (both of us).

When we no longer can contribute, or get ourselves overcome by stress or body failure, we get ourselves depressed and no longer want to exist on this earth as it is a fight to exist without balancing rewards here.

Do not get me wrong, I do think charity has a place and a reward here and in future after we are physically gone, and know deep inside that there is a God and that he cares for me while having to manage a whole world in ways that let it last as long as it physically can instead of abending abruptly due to things God did not do but self-serving men DID do. He knows that accepted sharing is the best way for the world to survive longest, and that when we get to the point that we look back on our lives and live in the past more and more that it is about time for us to end our physical existence.

He allows for individuals to have mercy, and come to know peace that holds in the worst of circumstances, which is not mostly physical though lack of stress does make our bodies last longer as they are not dealing with the physically documented poisons that stress produces. I have seen this happen again and again myself, inside and out.

Physical things wear down, that and seeing mercy work in many times and in many quiet ways is why I KNOW there is a God. If we were ALL there is, science would be all, but we might be bored because emotions exist also, and pure science does not allow for emotions to actr and influence us-- it is non-logical how a physical thing can FEEL and CARE, basicly. BUT, all those things exist, and that is one big miracle to me in this present time. Those who share this, I am glad to call friend in a real deeply felt sense. For those who cannot, I hope they find it soemtime in theri lives, even if need be at the very end of their lives, as I want to greet many when I DO go to heaven. It is impossible to be perfect here, but God knew that from teh very beginning and gave us feelings and needs and wants that are unique to each of us, so we have not the right to impose ourselves or control all others, nor do we have the right to think we are the most right in all the city, the world, or creation as to do that leads us to pride which God WILL and must break as we were MADE to help each other and pride takes the will to do so away from us. I have seen these ideas proven right again and again, in myself and others. You are welcome to accept what of this as you can grasp, now or in future, any time in your lives singly or corporately, and even one accepting this or come part of it is worth spending half an hour thinking as I type and fixing typos caused by bad vision leaving my eyes saying the key is there when it is next to or above or below what I hit as I type unless I type very slowly.

John.