View Full Version : Need Help (Serious)
Nomad
25 Jun 2007, 10:49pm
I need some advice, because to be frank I'm really angry and want to ensure I'm thinking clearly.
Right now, I work at a magazine company, I do graphics, layout, touch-ups on photos, and other side things like business cards and fliers. This is my summer job, and I've been working it since the start of May. I'm supposed to be paid every other Tuesday.
Since May I've never been paid on time. It's always been two-three days late and like pulling teeth to get it. The pay period before this, it was four days late. I was supposed to be paid last Tuesday June 19th. When I wasn't, I told my boss and he said he'd have my money on Friday, without problem. On Friday, he came in and gave me half my pay, and said he'd have the rest Monday, no excuses. I begrudgingly agreed to this.
Well, today is Monday and my boss had me do a bunch of different things. Around noon, my co-worker (Who is owed $2500 at this point, two checks bounced from previous weeks) and I confronted him. I told him I had to be paid today, like he said, with no crap about it. My boss stated that he does have the money, it's just a check and it has to take a few days to clear and tried to give me excuses. I said I needed the money today, I trusted his word and expected it today.
After this conversation, he said he'd go to the bank and get my money. This was at 1:30 PM. I leave work every day at 2:00 PM so I said I'd wait until he came back.
At four o'clock I couldn't wait any longer. My co-worker had to leave at that point and needed to close--I don't have a key. I called my boss, he said he was just coming back from Novi, that he has to go to Secretary of State, and then he'll go to the bank and that he'd call me in forty minutes. Ignore the fact it takes 40 minutes to get from Novi to Royal Oak, and whatever he was actually doing there, and Secretary of State regularly takes two hours...
Well, it's an hour from forty minutes and I'm fed up, I want to quit. Even if I was to get paid, I really doubt I'd be paid next Tuesday like I should be. My boss apparently sunk all his money from the magazine venture into someone's musical to cover a friend's eight mile accounting error that resulted in a huge loss of profit. These are ridiculous and irresponsible business practices atop the fact the business is about as organized as your grandmother's jewelry box, but there's a problem.
If I quit now, I go back to school in late August. I've tried lining up a few other jobs before hand, but no one will hire me for such a short time window. So basically I'd be out of the job completely since freelance work here is pretty dry. Should I just continue to put up with this crap in the hopes of getting paid or should I simply put my foot down and sip lattes in poverty for the next two months?
Nightwolf
25 Jun 2007, 11:12pm
Talk to a lawyer.
Buddy J
25 Jun 2007, 11:15pm
Nomad, if you quit now, will you have enough money for school or whatever your budget requires? Even if that means frugal living for a while, if you can make it work, I think you should.
Sticking around a business like the one you're at doesn't sound like a good idea. I'd get what I was owed and then get the hell out of there.
Nomad
25 Jun 2007, 11:15pm
Talk to a lawyer.
The amount would leave it into a small claims court.
Nomad
25 Jun 2007, 11:20pm
Nomad, if you quit now, will you have enough money for school or whatever your budget requires? Even if that means frugal living for a while, if you can make it work, I think you should.
Sticking around a business like the one you're at doesn't sound like a good idea. I'd get what I was owed and then get the hell out of there.
Well, I'm living at home for the summer, so I could tighten things up. I'm taking out loans for school again, so it doesn't much change that. When I go to Ann Arbor I was just going to find a new job there.
RyderOCZ
26 Jun 2007, 12:00am
I agree with BuddyJ here, what good is working if your not getting paid? Instead of doing things you want to do for no money...now you are doing something you may not want to be doing, for no money. The argument can be made, that so far you have at least been paid, even if late, so you have the money your supposed to have, but from the sounds of things...the camel's back is about to break at that place and you shouldn't wait for the straw to do it, IMO.
NiGHTS
26 Jun 2007, 12:10am
There are business bureaus (yeah, I know) that you can talk to, for starts. I'd also get in contact with a family friend whom happens to be a lawyer, as well. Rather than outright lawyer up and sue him now, you might want to tell him you're willing to take the next step if necessary to get what you're rightfully owed, suing him. Might work, might not.
Employment Standards Administration might help, but I'd venture that any government agency involvement would take time that you don't have.
Madball
26 Jun 2007, 12:22am
I've been in a very similar situation. After my employer's checks started bouncing, I quit. I suggest the same for you. Find a job, any job, to get you through the summer. It doesn't have to be in your desired field, just as long as it makes you some money. Having no job or cash flow is a bad thing. It's very hard to save money when you have nothing to keep you occupied.
Lincoln
26 Jun 2007, 1:15am
At the very least, I wouldn't return until you have what's owed you. I'd quit, frankly. I'd take it late a few times if I trusted the guy; you've clearly exceeded that.
Come mooch lattes off Icrontic.
primesuspect
26 Jun 2007, 1:57am
Supplement your pittance with a few writing gigs here and there..... Like, say, a 3D tutorial or something like that....
I'll make you espressos and lattes if you want
If you can make it on the $$, in addition to whatever you can make during the year (You do have $$-generating opportunities, right? I can't remember..), I'd quit like a mofo.
I'd have already cut my losses. I'd send him an invoice once/week for the money he owes me, but after that kind of pay delay, and then making you wait around for hours for something that should have taken minutes, I'd never actually do anymore work for him.
Kwitko
26 Jun 2007, 2:31am
The Payment of Wages and Fringe Benefits Act (http://www.michigan.gov/cis/0,1607,7-154-27673-39056--,00.html) protects the employee against unauthorized deductions, of which half a check certainly is:
Receive wages without deductions except deductions required by law, collective bargaining agreement or the written authorization of the employee.
You should definitely quit, but definitely file a complaint. Keep meticulous records of your time there, days late your checks were paid, yadda, yadda, yadda, but you already knew that.
Supplement your pittance with a few writing gigs here and there..... Like, say, a 3D tutorial or something like that....
I'll make you espressos and lattes if you want
LIKE THAT ONE I ALREADY WROTE???!11
Thanks for the opinions guys.
I've decided that I'll work the rest of this week and Monday next week. My reasoning is twofold:
Firstly, I'm going up north Wednesday to Sunday, so there's three days this week I won't be working for free anyhow. Show up Monday and Tuesday, no pay on Tuesday I'll quit and take legal action.
Secondly, we're extremely close to being done with the magazine I've been working on the last two months. I'd really like to see that become a finished product so it's something tangible I can shove on a resume. That'd mean more to me than any of the money I'd be missing out in in the next four days.
You wrote a 3D article? I'd like to see that.
Lincoln
26 Jun 2007, 5:35am
LIKE THAT ONE I ALREADY WROTE???!11Captain Facetious missed Brian being facetious. There is humor here, I can feel it.
RyderOCZ
26 Jun 2007, 5:37am
There is humor here, I can feel it.werd :cool: ;)
pseudonym
26 Jun 2007, 8:44am
really[/i] like to see that become a finished product so it's something tangible I can shove on a resume. That'd mean more to me than any of the money I'd be missing out in in the next four days.
Well, I'd probably at least get this issue done and then head out the door for the reasons you already stated. The addition to the resume is well worth a few more days suffering IMO.
primesuspect
26 Jun 2007, 10:33am
I possess the proton torpedoes for your thermal exhaust port, Nomad... :ninja:
Well, I'd probably at least get this issue done and then head out the door for the reasons you already stated. The addition to the resume is well worth a few more days suffering IMO.
Or, on the converse, I could hold it hostage :-/
GHoosdum
26 Jun 2007, 3:33pm
I seem to recall a previous post from you about an employer's failure to pay you?
Is this a W-2 job or a 1099? It barely matters because it seems that the employer is in breach of contract regardless. The situation where it does matter is if Michigan is an at will state, you're W-2, and he no longer considers you an employee, but that's unlikely considering he still wants you to work and still promises you the money.
I think you made the right decision in finishing out the magazine for resume purposes only. At this point, however, I'd write off any idea of pay from the guy because he sounds like a total liar scumbag.
I'm sorry to hear that you're having so much trouble recieving pay for the work that you do.
Oh, and sorry for the rehash, but I know this "little" website that pays as promised for written work. ;)
I seem to recall a previous post from you about an employer's failure to pay you?
Is this a W-2 job or a 1099? It barely matters because it seems that the employer is in breach of contract regardless. The situation where it does matter is if Michigan is an at will state, you're W-2, and he no longer considers you an employee, but that's unlikely considering he still wants you to work and still promises you the money.
I think you made the right decision in finishing out the magazine for resume purposes only. At this point, however, I'd write off any idea of pay from the guy because he sounds like a total liar scumbag.
I'm sorry to hear that you're having so much trouble recieving pay for the work that you do.
Oh, and sorry for the rehash, but I know this "little" website that pays as promised for written work. ;)
You are correct. A year ago I had a client from freelance work who tried to wriggle out of a payment. Our contract stated that I was paid when my work was finished, he decided he didn't need to use my renderings since the proposed building was turned down two weeks after the renderings were finished. That actually all worked out fine and didn't ever evolve to this kind of catastrophe.
Right now, I have a contract agreement with them so it falls under 1099-MISC. Taxes haven't been garnished from any of my wages yet.
So here's todays update:
I went in like usual and began working at 9 AM. Around 10 AM my boss came in and paid me $200 of what he still owed me. I'm getting paid in cash since his checks will bounce, I'm keeping tabs of what I'm getting with the bank right now.
After he gave me $200, he gets a phone call and is on the phone with multiple people for about half an hour. Right before he steps out of my office, I said his name and simply tapped my wallet as a reminder since he still owes me $50 more. (Someone else was in my office too and my boss said he didn't want me discussing money matters between him and I in front of others, so I was trying to be respectful) and he said he'll take care of it.
I was continuing working around 10:45 when my boss came in and asked me if I had change for $100. I said I didn't have the change. He stated he'd have to go to the bank to break change real quick then. This teed me off a bit because we're next to a gas station and a CVS that could easily make change.
At 11:15 AM, my co-worker Christian--the one who is owed about $2500--came in and asked me where everyone was. I told him I didn't know since my office is around the corner in the back, but as far as I knew the secretary was still at the front desk. Christian said she, the office manager, and our boss weren't around.
We working until 12:45 PM at which point the secretary came into the back and said that they were out trying to get advertisements and she apologized. I asked her if my boss was with her and she said yes, he was still out and going to go back out. I told the secretary to please tell my boss to be back before 2:00 o'clock so he and I can take care of something.
Now, when I told her this, I didn't realize my boss had come in with our secretary. The way she phrased it made it seem he was still out and she was going back to meet with him at another business. Well, my boss overheard what I told the secretary came into my office and closed the door.
He said he'd specifically told me not to talk with others about money matters, I said I wasn't and that I thought he was still out of the office and I just wanted him to be back on time.
He switched the subjects quickly and said, "So what happened yesterday? Where were you?" I told him he'd never called me back like he was supposed to and that I had called him four times and left two voice mails between 4:30 and 8:00 and he never responded. He said, "You never called me at all." I opened up my phone and showed him the four calls in my recent call list, and their duration.
He said, "Well that doesn't matter, I was here at 4:00 o'clock." I told him he was lying outright, both Christian and I were the only ones there Monday until 4:05, and he and I locked up. Our office manager did not come back while we were there. He then said, "I mean around 4:00 o'clock." I argued the arrangement we talked about previous to me leaving on Monday was that he would call me, and in spite of that I still tried calling him. I asked him what was so difficult about having him call me since he has my number and live less a quarter mile from my place of work.
At this point I was quite angry since he was questioning my integrity he asked me, "Is there tension?" And I said truthfully, "Yes, there is absolutely tension between you and I, you haven't paid me." He said, "Well you're going to be taken care of." I responded, "You said that last Tuesday, Friday, and Monday and you've failed to come through every time, you have not taken care of me and until I see the rest of my pay now there is going to be tension."
My boss said, "I don't approve of the way you talked to me yesterday, I don't want that to happen again you understand?" I told him, "As long as I'm paid on time for the full amount we won't have that problem again."
My boss stood up from his chair and came over to me in order to stand above me, it seemed like an intimidation tactic so I got out of my chair and stood as well. He moved up to my face and said, "That's not what I said, I don't approve of the way you came up to me like that." I told him, "I don't approve of the fact you aren't paying me on time, that you're illegally garnishing my wages and pushing me around without reason." He told me to lower my voice, as I was being a bit louder (happens when I get angry, it wasn't an outrageous tone though), and I continued, "I'm not going to lower my voice. I've been calm, patient and courteous through this entire process but this is ridiculous. I've waited an entire week and I have still not been paid what I'm owed and it's disrespectful."
He told me, "I am respecting you I'm trying to be calm and rational with you." I responded, "The rational thing is to pay me the money I'm owed, because I won't hesitate to get it through legal action if need be." He said, "Are you threatening me, don't give me that legal bull ****, are you threatening me?" I told him, "Legal action isn't a threat, it's a right and I absolutely will follow through with it if I'm not paid now."
He left the room and came back with the rest of my money... A lame $50 that I guess he really didn't have to go to the bank for. As he was about to walk away I said, "Is it going to be on time Tuesday?" he paused and started to talk about something and I stated, "If it's not on time Tuesday, I'm leaving and I'm going to take legal action for my remaining pay." He said, "It will be on time, you've got my word."
Truthfully, I'm pretty angry with myself. I haven't been this worked up about anything in years. I remained really rational through the conversation and controlled my emotions, but I don't like going off on people like that. I don't expect to get paid Tuesday, and even if I take him to court, you can't squeeze blood from a turnip.
GHoosdum
26 Jun 2007, 9:23pm
Truthfully, Nomad, I think you are judging yourself more harshly than anyone else would judge you. I think you did maintain a lot of patience, and the fact that you got upset is completely normal. It seems to me that the guy was being intentionally abrasive and disrespectful to try to draw you out, and then overreacting because he expected you to react worse than you did.
I respect the way you handled the situation, and I hope it gets better for you soon.
primesuspect
26 Jun 2007, 9:54pm
The guy is a douchebag, plain and simple. Your past experience with him should tell you everything you need to know to predict your future dealings. He won't keep his word, and now that he's backed into a corner, the hackles are up and he's using bullying to protect himself.
Bail quick, it's a sinking ship.
Kwitko
26 Jun 2007, 10:00pm
Nomad, you did the right thing. You've got harblz.
Lincoln
26 Jun 2007, 10:00pm
Nomad +rep
Bail quick, it's a sinking ship.Iceberg? What iceberg?
RyderOCZ
26 Jun 2007, 10:01pm
Agreed with the above points and from your descrption you did very well during the conversation. I am sure he was trying to intimidate you based on the age difference as well, which is another strike against him with the Employment Bureau.
NiGHTS
26 Jun 2007, 11:15pm
+5 for taking a stand. I wouldn't have been able to have done that.
+Rep. Now GTFO of dodge, sir.
RyderOCZ
27 Jun 2007, 3:47am
Now GTFO of dodge, sir.Werd, what he said http://www.ryderocz.info/smilies/fact.gif
pseudonym
27 Jun 2007, 4:13am
I rescind my former comments. Your boss is crazy, GTFO.
Well today it ended.
I'd worked yesterday and today (finished up the magazine yesterday after staying late again). At about 1:30, my boss asked me to come outside the office, so I did.
He told me he didn't have my money, but that he'd be getting it to me soon, he promises. I told him I was done, I told him last Tuesday if I wasn't paid on time today before I left I was leaving because I'd put up with way too much already and I'd get my pay through small claims if I really had to go that far.
He said I was threatening him, I told him I wasn't, I'm simply telling him the truth about the repercussions of withholding my pay would be, as I told him before. He gave me his financial sob story, told me he scrambled to make $3,000 last week to get everyone paid. I said, quite frankly, that's not my fault or my responsibility and I had no part in the financial distress of the business. Everything I was given has been completed in a timely manner and there's no reason to dock my pay.
He said I should realize I'm part of a business and things like this can happen. I told him if he was actually honest with me, and had said, "You know what, this week we're going to have to take a pay cut, or I need you to work less because I can't pay you since things aren't going well," I would have been a lot more understanding.
He said he was being honest and was telling me now. I told him it was irresponsible and poor business practice to tell me the day of that I'm not getting paid. He said he tells people they'll get paid all the time because 90% of the time he will have the money. I told him that I must be the 10% exception every time. I said I had absolutely no reason to believe I'd get paid within the next two weeks because past history has proven otherwise. He told me that he and I were all squared away with that, and that was beside the point. Obviously I disagreed.
He gave me a bunch of excuses and tried to get me to agree to a bunch of different 'payment options,' none of which surprisingly involved me actually being paid in the near future. I asked him if he had my pay in full, when he started giving me a speech again I told him if he didn't have my money today then that's it, I quit, no excuses and no exceptions. I've waited long enough previously and I had no more time for patience or compromise that left me without my earned money. I said it was like he was trying to con me out of my money by not paying me and thinking it will slide.
The word 'con' apparently really infuriated him, he told me I was fired after I'd already just quit and told me to leave immediately. As I was leaving he handed me half of what I'm owed and said, "You know if you had just hung around you'd of been paid at 6:00 today before we closed." I asked him why he didn't tell me that before, he said he could write me a check. I told him I'd be willing to bet all the money in my payroll for the last two weeks that the check wouldn't clear if I tried to cash it today. At that point he just looked around and told me to leave. As I was going to my car, he asked me if would do work for him in the future, I said I don't work for free anymore.
He kept trying to compromise, but I said that's enough and he has until Friday at 6:00 PM to get me the other half of my pay before I pursue small claims.
I'm pretty angry at how I've been treated. I doubt I'll see the other half I'm owed. It's going to be hard to find another job for like a month and a half.
primesuspect
4 Jul 2007, 5:25am
:-/
IndigoRed
4 Jul 2007, 7:40am
Man! I'm glad I'm always in a seriously good mood! That story's enough to make a guy go homicidal (one of my other always moods...)
Good for you, Nomad. Dood's a jerk.
Leonardo
4 Jul 2007, 8:20am
That's gotta hurt, Nomad. All in all, you handled it well. You gave respect as benefit of the doubt, demanded what was yours when appropriate, and cut your losses before they become worse. Well done, young man. I hope you find more employment before the next college semester starts.
Your boss is a mess. Just as another poster wrote, your boss could have saved a ton of heartache for himself and his employees if he had only leveled with them a while back. Some people just don't understand - bad news does not get better with age. He's a poor leader.
I can't believe this guy. I'd seriously have to mention "payment in advance only" if he squared off finances w/ you and asked you for more work.
muddocktor
4 Jul 2007, 2:05pm
I wouldn't give this asshat much time to finish paying me what he owes me before I would file with small claims court. If he's operating on such a shoestring budget, I doubt that the company will be around much longer so you better get the money while there is a chance of collecting.
I wouldn't give this asshat much time to finish paying me what he owes me before I would file with small claims court. If he's operating on such a shoestring budget, I doubt that the company will be around much longer so you better get the money while there is a chance of collecting.
Yeah, if I'm not paid on Friday I intend to file a small claims on Monday.
Make sure you file a complaint with the MI Dept of Labor too.
Make sure you file a complaint with the MI Dept of Labor too.
Didn't think of that, thanks. I'm having trouble finding how to file the proper complaint though.
*Edit*
Apparently, I do that in lieu of filing a small claims suit.
You know the guy's going to buckle, too. He can't pay his employees, how in the world is he even going to stomach going to small claims.
I hope he buckles, at least...it's certainly going for the jugular, otherwise.
Be careful, though. Courts are expensive for all parties, aren't they? If you can't afford to stick out the next month jobless, you might have to bite the bullet and take the lesser of two evils. Tacking on fees to the damages isn't always a viable option - though with my extremely limited knowledge of business law the idea of a "deterrent from future actions" might apply.
lightnin
6 Jul 2007, 3:58pm
don't worry. you are handling this in the best proper way. i'd have blown up on the guy long before now ;)
leaving there is the best possible scenario, people like that are users and will suck the life out of you at any chance. I've dealt with people like that. take from this experience and learn from it... and hopefully you wont find yourself in this situation ever again.
Nomad, you handled yourself in a Saintly manner over what I would have done.
BTW: Can you claim intelectual property rights on any of the project he hasn't paid you on? Technically it's still yours till he does pay you....
Nomad, you handled yourself in a Saintly manner over what I would have done.
BTW: Can you claim intelectual property rights on any of the project he hasn't paid you on? Technically it's still yours till he does pay you....
Mmm, I think the legality of that is kind of hazy and hard to define.
Mmm, I think the legality of that is kind of hazy and hard to define.
If it doesn't cost you a lot, might be some fun retribution to drag his sorry ass into court....
Thelemech
9 Jul 2007, 3:53am
I saw this thread earlier in it's evolution but now feel compelled to post- that I have gone thru almost the same scenario and I can only say my Force is on Your Side!
Your Amish Daddy
10 Jul 2007, 7:29am
And that's why I'm a privateer. We've got a few places run about the same way down here, an insurance finding place, whatever the hell they're called. Get quotes for you, help you find the coverage you're looking for, steal your last snickerdoodle cookie... Back before my sister stole a decent ammount of money from me and married a convict and got aids then nearly got killed by him and had to be rescued by a few of my rats, she worked for a guy who did the same crap to her. He learned real fast you don't screw with my ilk, or the Moss clan. Two conversion vans roll up eight deep each, it's better than the brown noise. He came off the money he owed her real fast.
...............Back before my sister stole a decent ammount of money from me and married a convict and got aids then nearly got killed by him and had to be rescued by a few of my rats.......
Is it just me, or does this sound like it needs punch line at the end? :bigggrin:
Cyclonite
10 Jul 2007, 3:31pm
Cue Thrax's giant statement. ;)
GHoosdum
11 Jul 2007, 3:56am
WHAT
Sure! :bigggrin:
the_technocrat
14 Jul 2007, 3:15pm
I had the same thing happen doing a small-business website for this dude. he figured he'd stiff me for the last week's work. The website was finished, after all...what could I do about it? It's like painting a car, right? I can't take back the last coat I painted...
I took back the last files I had done (the ones he hadn't paid for), replaced them with REPOSSESSED.php. :P Instead of paying for them, he chose to get another web guy I knew who went to my school who was about a dollar an hour cheaper. For the remaining ~4 hours work that was needed to finish the site. The guy completely hosed the entire CMS site I had made. Ended up making a new site in Frontpage, with just some contact info on it.
The guy who chose to stiff me got canned a few months later, basically for being an idiot across the board...
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