Joining the Quad Club

[Leonardo]

Well, it was time.

Today I moved into the next phase of cyclical upgrades on my home computers. Quad is on the way. I'll be upgrading one computer at a time, looking for bargains on processors and motherboards through online sales, forums, and maybe even Craigslist (mainly overpriced junk here in Alaska).

For starters, No. 1 (in signature) will be receiving a Q6600 and Abit IP35-E. I found the Q6600 used at a steep discount at another forum's trading section and the IP35-E (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127031&Tpk=IP35-E) is coming from Newegg. The IP35-E seems perfect for me: good overclocker; no unnecessary frills like Firewire, RAID, and SLI; and very inexpensive. In other words, it's a high performance board with a decent track record but lacking expensive luxuries that I wouldn't use anyway.

The Q6600 I purchased is a G0 stepping. The rest of the computer will essentially retain the components in that are in it now, which are proven and are quite capable. I will be swapping out the OS drive for an 80GB WD SATA. The DVD burner will run off the Abit's onboard IDE port and my second drive (IDE) will be connected to a PCI-IDE adapter.

I had been waiting for the technology - quad core and corresponding chipsets to mature and for prices to fall. Both conditions have been fulfilled in my opinion. (Additionally, I've also recovered from some awfully big household expenses this year.) I skipped the second generation dual core technology and am now jumping into quad.

I'll be migrating the other three computers over to quad as well. As this upgrading cycle will happen in stages relatively slowly, who know, Intel 45nm quad core or AMD Phenom might enter the mix as well. I'm not holding my breath for AMD. I have to say though, I'd love to build another AMD machine! Some nostalgia involved.

Wish me luck!

Comments on pros and cons of my parts choice are welcomed.

[QCH]

WOW... That's some serious horsepower!!! I foresee Leonardo rising in the Folding ranks... SMP anyone? :D

[Thelemech]

Awesomesauce Leonardo! I plan on purchasing a Quad 6600 in the very near future. This should drastically increase your points and rank once all is said and done.

[Leonardo]

WOW... That's some serious horsepower!!!It will not all come online at once. I will be upgrading the machines incrementally. My wife is the family accountant! Although I don't have to get her permission for computer tech purchases, NO account activity escapes her attention. It's a good thing really, as she keeps me in check.I plan on purchasing a Quad 6600 in the very near futureThey've been out long enough that they are starting to appear on trading forums. When the 45nm quads are available, expect early adopters to start upgrading. Some of those 'old' Q6600s will find their way to online trading posts. Of the computers I have now, the parts in them are at the most 50% retail online or physical store. The other 50% was eBay or trading forums.

[TheLostSwede]

You'll have a ball with Quad Leo. I got myself a Quad last week, G0 as well. 3.6 ghz without issues on air and it isn't even as hot as i have seen many are.
If you plan on buying DDR2, now is the time sir. Prices are at the lowest point ever. Remember, these chipsets do not have a divider backwards meaning your can get totally gimped by ram unless you have good clocking ram. As long as they do 400mhz (DDR2800) in 1:1, you shouldn't have any problems.

I just recieved a nice DD3 board yesterday, and i am just waiting for DDR3 to arrive. I so look forward to that. :D

[lemonlime]

I just bought my first intel proc in eight years :eek:

Got a Q6600 G0 the other day as well. Can't wait to see how it does!

[mmonnin]

You'll have a ball with Quad Leo. I got myself a Quad last week, G0 as well. 3.6 ghz without issues on air and it isn't even as hot as i have seen many are.
If you plan on buying DDR2, now is the time sir. Prices are at the lowest point ever. Remember, these chipsets do not have a divider backwards meaning your can get totally gimped by ram unless you have good clocking ram. As long as they do 400mhz (DDR2800) in 1:1, you shouldn't have any problems.

I just recieved a nice DD3 board yesterday, and i am just waiting for DDR3 to arrive. I so look forward to that. :D

Keep waiting. DRAM spot prices have been falling for a long time and for the consumer the future looks good.

Market is approaching the <$1 mark for 512Mb 667MHz DDR2 ICs with new 300mm fabs opening regularly. I know its now what most of us buy but the trend follows that standard.

[MrBill]

Congratulations Leo! :)

I'll be stuck with my dual Xeons forever.....by the time I upgrade my desktop pc again quad's will probably be extinct. ;D

[Leonardo]

Oh, just wait and see. As soon as I finish this upgrade cycle, The Next Best Thing will be out, absolutely clobbering quad (Intel or AMD) performance.

[Leonardo]

For upgrades, now is not a bad time at all. DDR2 is dirt cheap. I just ordered two sets each of 2X1GB PC2 800 plus shipping for less than 1GB would have been just 18 months ago. Yeah, that's right - 4GB is less than 1GB was 18 months ago. Also, Intel is so intent on keeping AMD from being profitable, and AMD is so intent on keeping whatever market share that it has, both companies' processors are inexpensive now.

The time was right, I tell you!

[Leonardo]

YAY! It's built and purring - like an 800 pound tiger! These things are fast! And I haven't even started overclocking. The hardware config and BIOS was easy. It is so good to be back with Abit's Software Menu BIOS layout!

Getting Windows running was an absolute pain (http://icrontic.com/forum/showthread.php?p=565645#post565645).

[Leonardo]

Hey, what's a good hardware monitor for an P35 chipset motherboard? Currently I'm running SpeedFan and Abit's EQ. Abit's EQ has a lot of information, but the layout and design is looks like something for a hormone-charged 13 year-old.

[Qeldroma]

Leo- I can't wait to see you "quad some quads", overclock the snot out of them, tweak them for the most fold/watt and change Alaska into a tropical paradise :vimp:.

As far as monitoring tools, you probably know more than I do- however, despite your Alaskan clime, these Kentsfields and likely their siblings need to be watched pretty closely. Core Temp (http://www.thecoolest.zerobrains.com/CoreTemp/) has proved itself more than once. Just today I noticed that the temps were getting pretty high and it turned out to be a fan with a poor connection. But you probably know this one and I'm probably not addressing what you have in mind.

However, I did want to take the opportunity to say that it's good to have you in the club and hope you enjoy these powerful babies :D :smokin:

[Leonardo]

I think the people who think Intel quads are hot running are people who have never run an Intel dual core Smithfield or Presler. I'm running full load right now - two instances of Folding@Home SMP and the CPU core temp is 45C, as measured by both Abit EQ and SpeedFan. I'll install Core Temp and see what it reads.

Update: Maybe I spoke too soon. :rolleyes: Core reports temps ranging from 47C - 58C for cores 0-3. I'm going to pretend Abit EQ and FanSpeed are more accurate. :wtf:

[mmonnin]

Leo, how well does that Abit board work for you? I just got my Q6600 and would rather upgrade (basically totally replace) an older K7 system with the Q66 than tear apart my main.

The board is listed as only $75 AR now so it might be a good time to jump on it.

[Leonardo]

I am not ready to render a verdict on the motherboard. I've only had the system running in Windows (typing on it now) for less than 24 hours. Here's my preliminary:

Excellent value for the money if you don't need the frills such as onboard SATA RAID and Firewire.

The board is designed for overclocking - nice heatsinks on MOSFETs and Northbridge, and the excellent Abit Soft Menu BIOS.

So far, voltage regulation is not quite what I'd like to see. Seems to be a bit of a droop between CPU core BIOS set and actual. Most boards will have some droop, but I haven't observed much droop before at default CPU clock. There is a little bit here. I did have some minor instability and bumped up voltages across the board (no pun intended). Undervoltage is OK as long as there is a constant ratio between BIOS settings and actual voltage output. One can adjust for that. If it's not a linear relationship, then things get difficult. I have not started overclocking yet so I can't address that.

There is an annoying "double boot," meaning that upon startup the fans spin and components start to synchronize, to be followed by the computer shutting down and restarting. No harm is done, it's just annoying. Apparently subsequent BIOS revision(s) have cured that. I'll be updating the BIOS today. I'll probably also start overclocking.

[mmonnin]

Yeah I'm looking for the same thing you are. Its just going to be a full time folder so I dont need any of the extras at all. Just stability, a decent OCer and a good price.

[Black Hawk]

My quad core is running at around 60C full load but that's probably because the stock HSF is a PITA to install. FAH rine fine for a few days but it crashed with a file IO error (temps). I guess I gotta buy a decent HSF.

[Leonardo]

quad core is running at around 60C full loadAs measured by what utility? I'm using two - Core Temp and SpeedFan. They are 10C apart on load temps, with Core Temp showing the way higher numbers. On idle temps, these two monitors are close to each other and to the BIOS reading.

[Black Hawk]

Core Temp.

[Leonardo]

For my system, the temperatures I posted above spanned all four cores, as measured by Core Temp and SpeedFan. SpeedFan shows all four cores and also shows a "CPU" temperature. I don't know what the "CPU" temp means, when all four cores are given a temp reading.

Blackhawk, for your system, what CPU heatsink are you using? Also, which core of the four is the 60C reading from. For my testing for full load, I am using four instances of Prime95. Orthos or Folding@Home probably would be better, but I don't want to risk ruining SMP units in Folding. For your system, what constitutes a full load?

[Black Hawk]

I'm using the stock heatsink but I as I said earlier, it's mounted incorrectly. One of the clips on the HSF just didn't attatch.

Full load for me was letting FAH SMP run for a few mins till the temps stabilized. Can't try it now since FAH is giving me file IO errors (google tells me it's due to hw instability).

At this moment, core 0 is giving the highest temp at 55°C (regular load) with the lowest reading being from core 2 (51°C).

[Leonardo]

What hardware monitor are you using? The reason I ask is I'm trying to find the most accurate monitor. I'm using Core Temp, SpeedFan, and Abit EQ. Speedfan and Core Temp show the temperature for each core, but they diverge by as much as 10C. That's just unacceptable for overclocking. EQ and SpeedFan both show a "CPU" temperature? Well, the CPU is four cores, so what's this single temperature.

A couple people have posted on the forums, stating Core Temp is better. I have no reason to disbelieve them, but where does this opinion come from?

[Black Hawk]

What hardware monitor are you using?
Core Temp.
---
The temperature readings are very accurate as the data is collected from a Digital Thermal Sensor (or DTS) which is located in each individual processing core, near the hottest part. This sensor is digital, which means it doesn't rely on an external circuit located on the motherboard to report temperature, its value is stored in a special register in the processor so any software can access and read it. This eliminates any inaccuracy that can be caused by external motherboard circuits and sensors and then different types of programs trying to read those sensors.

Source (http://www.thecoolest.zerobrains.com/CoreTemp/howitworks.html)
In my case, 3 out of 4 temps displayed by Core Temp are practically the same (1°-/+) and one is 3° below but I think it's because the HSF isn't seated properly.

[Thrax]

Core temp is the most accurate monitor. Period. It reads straight from a sensor located directly on the die.

[Leonardo]

Thanks, guys. According to Core Temp, the four cores in my quad have a temperature spread of 10C consistently. I am sure the heatsink (Thermaltake Big Tornado) is seated firmly and evenly. Right now with two instances of Folding, overclock to 3.0GHZ (600MHz increase) the cores are at 56-66C. Looks like overclocking will stop until I have better cooling.

[mmonnin]

Being that it is a reading directly from the die it is going to be warmer than you are used to. That 56-66C could be read as 46-56 from an extermal source as an example.

[Leonardo]

Core temp is the most accurate monitor. Period. It reads straight from a sensor located directly on the die.That 56-66C could be read as 46-56 from an extermal source as an example. So then I wonder, when I see comments in forums cautioning about thermal limitations, overclock ceilings, and what have you, are they basing such on the hottest core of the four-core die?

What are some good rules of thumb for operating this beast with respect to heat? Yes, I've read here and there, including Intel's Q6600 specification page, but they never specify if it's overall "CPU" temperature or hottest single core.

[Snarkasm]

I run PCWizard, CoreTemp, and Everest, and they're all within a degree of each other between the individual cores. I've got a 7-8 degree spread between cores (cores 0 and 1 hit 55, 2 and 3 hit 48) and I was wondering if this was usual; from reading these, is it not? I'm fairly certain my heatsink is seated correctly.

I also ran four instances of Prime95 before I got SMP running, and my Prime95 temps were always 3-4 degrees higher than my SMP folding temps.

[Leonardo]

I'll give PCWizzard and Everest a try. If those are full load temperatures you posted, I don't think they're bad at all. In my case, 4 X Prime 95 was about the same as 2 X F@H WinSMP, maybe 1 to 2C higher.

Hey, take a look here (http://icrontic.com/forum/showthread.php?p=566100#post566100). I've hit a stability wall that may be PCI bus-related. Would appreciate your opinion.

[Snarkasm]

Dropped my voltages a little bit, still running stable, but now folding never gets above 50 C. I'm pretty happy with that.

[Leonardo]

folding never gets above 50 CI am finding that monitoring programs and the specific core/CPU in measurement makes a huge difference. For instance, SpeedFan measure each core separately (four readings) and also gives a "CPU" reading - five readings altogether for the same processor. The CPU reading seems to be an average all four cores. (Yes, I know, Core Temp is supposed to be the most accurate. I'm also monitoring with that.)

Which monitoring program? Which core is measured at 50C?

[Snarkasm]

I am finding that monitoring programs and the specific core/CPU in measurement makes a huge difference. For instance, SpeedFan measure each core separately (four readings) and also gives a "CPU" reading - five readings altogether for the same processor. The CPU reading seems to be an average all four cores. (Yes, I know, Core Temp is supposed to be the most accurate. I'm also monitoring with that.)

Which monitoring program? Which core is measured at 50C?

I use three different programs, Everest, CoreTemp, and PCWizard, and once I verified that they were generally consistent with each other, I pretty much use only PCWizard now as it has an OSD that doesn't take up too much space.

All four programs show me temps for each individual core, and PCWizard also shows me an overall CPU temp, a mobo temp, and a GPU temp. I don't really know what the CPU temp is either; as long as it's under my core temps, I'm ok with that. Like I said, my cores vary 5-7 degrees between themselves, with cores 0 and 1 always running hotter, around 50 degrees C when folding, and cores 2 and 3 always running cooler, between 43 and 45.

Sorry for the late reply, btw. Apparently my notifications aren't very speedy.


Edit: I just downloaded and installed SpeedFan 4.33, and it's miserably wrong on a lot of my values. My 3.3V and 5V rails are right, but it records my 12V as 6. My temps are all below 35 C on it, when they're actually 50. Suffice it to say I'll stick with the other ones. Wonder what's going wrong with it.

[Leonardo]

I'm playing now with SpeedFan, Core Temp, Everest, and PC Wizard. The core temps that they report, as in 0 through 3, are fairly consistent with Core Temp. None of them give an accurate 12+ reading - all that report that line show 5.8. Weird! The only monitor that showed 12+ correctly was Abit's EQ, which will not open now. Another weird.

[Snarkasm]

Very weird. PCWizard shows my voltages correctly save for those swapped values.

[mmonnin]

Only way to get a correct Voltage reading is with a volt meter.

[Snarkasm]

We get it, you're cool because you have a multimeter. Some of us don't, and we have to use programs/BIOS. Sorry.

[Leonardo]

Only way to get a correct Voltage reading is with a volt meter.True, but that is completely impractical for working up a max overclock with several frequency settings, several voltage settings, and CPU/FSB/DRAM timings ratios. A multimeter is also not practical if you need to observe vCore voltage droop in real time.

[TheLostSwede]

We get it, you're cool because you have a multimeter. Some of us don't, and we have to use programs/BIOS. Sorry.

He gave an advice that is very true. No reason to play the sarcasm game.
mmonnin knows more about electronics then most i have met and he has never ever given a bad advice here on Icrontic/Short-Media. If you want to get to the bottom of things like this, there is no shortcut.

A multimeter costs $10 at Walmart and in most civilian contries, you'll learn how to use one in school when you are between 13-15.

[mmonnin]

If someone can afford a quad or C2D or any ethusiast equipment they can afford a simple multemeter. As Swede said its pretty cheap, I think I got mine from Home Depot or Lowes for about $15.

One of the main reasons I got one was because my 12V rail was showing like 11V or something in the BIOS (was like 2 years ago but it anyway it was low) so I bought a multimeter and it showed 12.03 OCd with load.

Sure its not meant to observe anything besides the 12/5/3.3V rails, unless you are daring enough to touch metal to your motherboard for other voltages...but I just said it because nothing else can give a more stable reading.

What it WILL do is tell you that your 3.3 rail is not running at 2V.

[Leonardo]

If someone can afford a quad or C2D or any ethusiast equipment they can afford a simple multemeter. As Swede said its pretty cheap, ...but I just said it because nothing else can give a more stable reading. I think you have me convinced. I'll probably get one this weekend.

[Thrax]

60c is the max temp for the hottest core. You're only as strong as your weakest link.

[Snarkasm]

Apologies, I didn't mean to come off as rude, that was just the 12th or 15th time I'd heard "get a multimeter." I just tend to shy away from buying something that at least right now, I'll only use for exactly this one thing, no matter the price.

Sorry again, though, I didn't mean to be rude.

[Donut]

Thought I might chime in a little. I just received the same board and a quad (b3 stepping) and I'm noticing lots of heat at stock settings. Granted I have a crud stepping, but 2 cores at 72c with a Ninja? (4 instances of stress-prime ,core temp. AbitEQ was showing 60c). I removed the sink 3 times and still can't drop the temps.

So to figure what was wrong I tried the factory supplied HSF (temps can't be that high) 80c and climbing!:eek: ( I shut down stress prime pretty fast)

Intel can't keep these puppies cool either!

Sorry Leo for jumping into your thread, but I only wish for temps that were that cool.:bigggrin:

[Leonardo]

Using the "CPU" heat measurement (as differentiated from individual core readings) from Core Temp and SpeedFan, it appears the externally measured heat output of my B3 quad at 3GHz is approximately the same as one of my Pentium D (dual core Presler) at 4GHz. When you think about it, that stands to reason. Presler's two relatively inefficient "Netburst" cores clocked very high equal about the same waste heat as the quad's relatively efficient four cores.

Yes, it is not hard to believe your Ninja is having a difficult time removing all that waste heat. At 3GHz, BIOS indicated 1.335 vCore, full load, highest core temp (Core 0) of my Q6600 is 65C. I'm using the same Big Typhoon I used with the previous Asus/D915 setup (2.8 @ 4.0 GHz).

Just when Intel and AMD figure how to increase power with less energy, they pack more power consuming cores in the same unit! Oh well, imagine what a four-core Smithfield would have been like! YIKES:eek:

By the way, my Q6600/Abit IP35E platform is not stable yet. I've got an RMA number for the board and will probably be packing it up for return shipment this weekend.

Thread over here (http://icrontic.com/forum/showthread.php?p=566879#post566879).

[Tex]

Its not ever been stable at stock speeds? And the memory tests ok at stock speeds?

[Leonardo]

It is stable at stock speeds, IF NB and SB voltages are jacked up almost to max. Monitor flickers occasionally if PCIe bus is not set to 105MHz.

I have not performed any memory tests. I have done all my troubleshooting on this computer using known memory sets from other computer builds where it worked flawlessly for months. Sure, that's not a guarantee that memory is without flaws, but it's unlikely that two sets of RAM would both be defective. Additionally, all troubleshooting and operation of the computer has been with RAM at default frequency.

[Donut]

Sorry about your problems with the board Leo. I made my mind up upon reading reviews around the web, you picking it up when you did was just icing on the cake. Selling some parts off to help finance this build made it take a little longer.

In my case, I think I solved my heat problem (and voided my cpu warranty)
Right after I made my last post, I removed the Intel hsf. I checked the IHS, it looked like the ocean! A little emery cloth and a piece of glass, now my temps with the Ninja are 60c full load. 10c drop, and all the cores are within 3c now (as reported by core temp) I didn't get crazy lapping this thing, just scuffing off the high spots a little, looks promising though.

[Tex]

It is stable at stock speeds, IF NB and SB voltages are jacked up almost to max. Monitor flickers occasionally if PCIe bus is not set to 105MHz.

I have not performed any memory tests. I have done all my troubleshooting on this computer using known memory sets from other computer builds where it worked flawlessly for months. Sure, that's not a guarantee that memory is without flaws, but it's unlikely that two sets of RAM would both be defective. Additionally, all troubleshooting and operation of the computer has been with RAM at default frequency.


And you swapped not only ram from another rig but also CPU's right so that you are sure its the MB???

Thats the problem of me going quad intel and ddr2 now... No known good spares for me here to swap unless I try to get TWO rigs with differant motherboards but the same cpu's and two differamt sets of ram, etc... (rolls eyes.....)

its soooo sad Leo. You realize that for 99.5 percent of the computer population an upgrade today to 4gb ddr2 and a quad q6600 would mean they have all the computer upgrades they need till like 2001 covered.

And it won't last you or me 12 months. (wink) Leo we are hardware junkies...

Tex

[Leonardo]

temps with the Ninja are 60c full loadThat terminology has become vague. What temperature is the hottest core under full load? Is this at overclock or at default CPU frequency? Hey, I have to remind myself also - "CPU temp" doesn't mean much if there are multiple cores. One core could be ready to crash and burn while its siblings are all happy.

You realize that for 99.5 percent of the computer population an upgrade today to 4gb ddr2 and a quad q6600 would mean they have all the computer upgrades they need till like......another 10 years. Yes, I agree. My home computers, even the 'older' generation machines are F-22s compared to my office machines, which are business standard Dell Octopus slugs.

[Tex]

...another 10 years. Yes, I agree.

No not 10 years in the future Leo sorry. By then
"M i c ro s h i t" will have apandoned all support for Vista and users will be then forced to upgrade to Wamista Plus.

Which requires the equiv of a cray supercomputer and 64 terrabytes of ddr9 to function in its stripped down default configuration. Which basicaly means you can only boot and play pong.

BUT ITS VERY FAST PONG !!! And if you shut down a few Wamista Plus services and tweak the settings on Wamaist Plus you can sometimes ALSO receive email!

Tex

[mmonnin]

Thats the problem of me going quad intel and ddr2 now... No known good spares for me here to swap unless I try to get TWO rigs with differant motherboards but the same cpu's and two differamt sets of ram, etc... (rolls eyes.....)


Tex

Solution: Get 2 systems at once! :)

I've seen it multiple times that Intels IHS is not very flat and by lapping the surface greatly reduces core temps. Even if its not a mirror finish, just getting metal to metal contact does wonders for temps.

[Leonardo]

Working up the overclock. Today I swapped out the old, faithful Thermaltake Big Typhoon. It was a workhorse, but the Q6600s just aren't nearly as heat tolerant as my old Pentium D dual cores. I could reach the CPU limits with the D930s and the Typhoon, but not on the Q6600. I got a Tuniq Tower 120 through a private trade and installed it today.

Present clock:

Q6600/B3
Core frequency: 3.2GHz (9 X 355)
FSB: 1420
DDR: 852MHz (Geil DDR2 800)

This is a B3 stepping. I really had to turn up the vCore to get it stable. Setting is 1.3625v and actual is 1.31 under full load. I think the CPU is good for 3.3GHz, maybe higher, but I need to take a break before I attempt higher clocks. Wouldn't hurt for the Arctic Silver to set a bit. It's still fresh.