Cooling the MSI Master2 FAR [Archive]

drasnor

24 Nov 2003, 07:27pm

It's got dual Opterons and a non-standard (for AMD) heatsink mount.

From GamePC.com (http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=dualduel&page=1):
What MSI has done, apparently, is NOT used AMD's standard Socket-754/940 heatsink retention system, opting to use a Pentium 4-style (!!) heatsink retention system instead. What this means is NO standard Athlon64/Opteron heatsink will work on this motherboard, not even the AMD retail coolers. Not only does MSI include the incorrect mounting brackets, but they do not leave the necessary motherboard holes if one wanted to change out to the correct mounting system.

On the plus side though, one could use any number of Pentium 4 coolers on the market for use on the K8T Master2 motherboard, but we can imagine most (if not all) potential buyers of this board will be confused by the cooling situation.

Update : We've just been informed that using Pentium 4 coolers, such as the ones included on the MSI K8T Master2-FAR motherboard, voids the warranty on AMD Opteron retail CPU's. Keep in mind, this is only on retail packaged CPU's, OEM CPU's determine warranty breaks in different ways which is up to each OEM distributor. Still, we thought it was interesting and well worth mentioning.
I had originally planned to water-cool this platform, but that didn't fly real far financially with the folks and given a choice between a bigger case and water cooling or dual Opteron 250's, that was an easy choice.

In any case, now I need to select a pair of Socket478 coolers for this board. My criteria are:
Must use the Intel HSRM or Intel Xeon thru-board mount holes.
Must fit entirely within the space outlined by the Intel HSRM.
Must perform better than the Intel stock 3.0+GHz HSF.
Must be no louder than 40dB (the quieter the better).
Must not look hideous.
EDIT: Pretty sure they're not AMD mount holes, try Xeon.
You'll probably see what I mean about size restrictions if you look carefully at this photo
(source: newegg)

I've found one HSF, the AVC SunFlower2 HSF, that seems to meet all of my criteria.
http://www.ninjalane.com/images/sunflower2/66fins.jpg
(source: ninjalane)

I'm open to suggestions if y'all have 'em. I'm still using my stock Intel cooler on my P4 (too lazy to change it), so I'm pretty inexperienced in this department.

-drasnor :fold:

shwaip

24 Nov 2003, 07:48pm

Will the slk-800u fit on that board?

Geeky1

24 Nov 2003, 07:51pm

Base on the AVC is too small, I think.

Two Thermalright SLK-900Us will probably fit if you use 70 or 80mm fans.

shwaip

24 Nov 2003, 07:55pm

Geeky1, I was looking at that...I think the fins may be oriented the wrong way for them to fit on there. (basically, they'd overhang the AGP slot)

Geeky1

24 Nov 2003, 07:56pm

Not on a P4 system; AFAIK, they mount lengthwise on the P4, with the edges of the fins facing the mounting brackets.

shwaip

24 Nov 2003, 08:09pm

from this pic, it looks like a 900u may not fit...altho, this was the about only pic I could find on the 'net.

croc_

24 Nov 2003, 08:14pm

geeky, if you look at those brackets, the mounting slots for the clips are facing towards the AGP slot, meaning it would hang over that edge. At least thats how it looks, I could be wrong.

shwaip

24 Nov 2003, 08:20pm

drasnor, are the mounting holes on the mobo intel or amd mounting holes?

edit:

This may be another option. It seems to perform well on p4 CPU's
http://www.svc.com/vanaerp4tmdc.html

TheLostSwede

24 Nov 2003, 08:36pm

Would you be able to remove those Intel plastic things?

If so, two Swiftech MCX4000 would fit brilliantly. The choice between 70-92mm fans is a plus as well. 3.14"W x 3.5"L x .375"H

drasnor

24 Nov 2003, 09:10pm

They look like AMD mount holes, but I'm not sure. I'm assuming AMD because they seem to be far too close together (one socket width on the short dimension) to be Intel holes. I'll keep looking for information though.

None of the Thermalright HS will fit because they interfere with the AGP slot. If they were rotated 90 degrees, they would have been perfect, but they all have the mount clips on their long dimension as pictured above.

-drasnor :fold:

edcentric

24 Nov 2003, 09:11pm

The 800u is smaller than the 900u.
But those mounting brackets look very close.
Good luck, with Intel mounting holes this could be a trick.

drasnor

24 Nov 2003, 09:37pm

I've been checking out some other motherboards, and I think it looks like MSI used the Intel Xeon hole spacing.

(source: newegg)

-drasnor :fold:

Drasnor, your image was bringing up a login prompt from Newegg. Had to remove it.

drasnor

24 Nov 2003, 09:58pm

Any thoughts on using the Swiftech MCX603?
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/MCX603/MCX603-R2-350X257.jpg

-drasnor :fold:

shwaip

24 Nov 2003, 10:42pm

Have you tried firing off an e-mail to MSI?

drasnor

24 Nov 2003, 10:50pm

They don't have an address for technical questions. They have a RMA request form, a website suggestions e-mail, and a sales/distribution e-mail. I looked on their support forums, which have a thread on K8T Master2 cooling and it's like MSI employees don't even browse. I figure if they can't get an answer from MSI on MSI's own forum, I haven't got a prayer.

-drasnor :fold:

shwaip

24 Nov 2003, 10:57pm

Tech support e-mail:
support@msi.com.tw

Online tech support form
http://www.msicomputer.com/msiforms/c_problem_desc_form2.asp

Geeky1

24 Nov 2003, 11:00pm

MSI's tech support is OUTSTANDING, IMO. Try the address shwaip just posted;

Regardless, the swiftech heatsinks are excellent, but due to the fact that they have very tight pin spacing, they apparently don't generally do well in low-noise/low flow applications

drasnor

24 Nov 2003, 11:12pm

Okay, here's what I sent.
I'm considering purchasing a MSI Master2 FAR motherboard for use in my next computer, and I would like to use my own cooling solution. Before I can do that, I need to know if the heatsink retention mechanism featured on the board conforms to any particular standard (Intel Socket478-compatible, Intel Socket603 compatible, etc.) and whether the hole spacing for this mount conforms to any standard like that found on some performance Socket A boards, Intel Socket478 boards, or Intel Socket603 boards. Thank you.

-drasnor :fold:

drasnor

24 Nov 2003, 11:13pm

BTW, I scaled out some Xeon boards in MS Photo Editor and the hole spacing on the short dimension matches that on the MSI board. I don't have another view of the MSI board, so I can't scale the long dimension.

-drasnor :fold:

drasnor

3 Dec 2003, 12:29am

Does this constitute a real response? It's been a week, and this is all I got.
To our Valued Customer,

?

Thank you for purchasing & supporting MSI product.

?

This E-mail is an automatic reply which is to notify you that you have reached?HYPERLINK "mailto:support@msi.com.tw"support@msi.com.tw

?

In order to give you an overall technical support, we have listed some common problems and solutions for your reference.

Please take time to read the useful FAQ which we have compiled from the technical support e-mails we have received as link and see if it helps the problem you are facing.

?

http://www.msi.com.tw/html/service/main.htm

?

?

?

We hope the directions below answer your question. If your?problem still cannot be solved after going through all the suggestions,?then you can reply this e-mail?containing the automatic reply?with your?original e-mail. We will get back to you as soon as?possible.

?

I. Read the Manual

Most users have tendency not to read the manual under the presumption that they already know what is written in there. However, we have seen that there are percentage of technical support calls & e-mails as a result of not reading the manual

?

II. Keep your MSI CD drivers

MSI CD drivers provide easy driver installation via auto-run. Losing it would require you to install driver manually

?

III. Contact your Reseller

Your reseller or the store/company that sold the motherboard or system to you should know well what your system contains & have the necessary resources to help you in your problem. Since they can see your system clearly, it is easier for them to identify if your problem was caused of wrong installation or wrong assembly or defective product, etc. It would be advisable to contact your reseller for those having problems like system cannot power on or need to send board for repair

NOTE: there is a tiny percentage that the board might be defective & by contacting your reseller at an earlier time prevent your warranty being voided. Some resellers provide certain period of time for return/exchange, after that you have to either send the board to them for repair or you are on your own.

?

IV. Check our website

Some of the information you are looking for might be already posted in our website

?

V. Search in MSI Forum

Your problem might have encountered by another user in the forum or you might find answer in the Good Article forum with a lot of useful posts written by moderators & power users. You can also post a message there to get help

?

VI. Read the FAQ

Attached Link is a list of useful FAQ which we have compiled from the technical support e-mails we have received http://download.msi.com.tw/support/dvr_exe/user.exe

?

?

Best Regards,

MSI Technical Support

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please include your original mails when replying!!

Reeaal helpful.

-drasnor :fold:

TheBaron

3 Dec 2003, 02:11am

it says reply with the original email. i'd say do that, OR call them on the phone and bitch until you get past the supervisor's supervisor to someone who knows what they're talking about

drasnor

3 Dec 2003, 03:48am

I went hunting for better photos for scale purposes.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

-drasnor :fold:

Tyan Tiger i7505 (S2668) dual Xeon motherboard scaled up to 525% (source: Tyan)
MSI K8T Master2 dual Opteron motherboard scaled up to 400% (source: MSI)
I matched their back dimension and ATX hole positioning before zooming in on the processor sockets to ensure a match.

mmonnin

3 Dec 2003, 04:33am

That is one crappy move my MSI. Why in the world would that do that? Forcing everyone to void waranty or do something better than air or mod it.

drasnor

3 Dec 2003, 05:03am

Shrug. My only b!tch is that the price tag on the Swifties is $64 for the MCX603 non-rev2 non-V sink. The V is too big and the rev2 uses clip mounts, while the original uses through-hole mounting.

It's not like anyone makes a decent Opteron HSF anyway. If you buy OEM processors, the warranty is 30 days. I guess they were thinking they would make life easier on everyone by using a HSF mount that has lots of alternatives for cooling. BTW, since the HSRM accepts socket478 sinks and bolts into Xeon holes, I bet I can use these on a Xeon board to mount socket478 sinks. Besides, if the board eats my CPU's, I bet I can b!tch out MSI and make them replace them.

I forgot to mention that the board ships with a pair of reaaaally loud CoolerMaster Socket478 copper HSF's.

-drasnor :fold:

drasnor

8 Dec 2003, 01:22am

In light of the Swiftech Xeon coolers costing a LOT, I had another look at the stock HSF's that come with the board. They are made by CoolerMaster and have the same base as the Aero4, but an off the shelf AVC fan on top. Feedback in the MSI forums say it's ridiculously loud, so I'm thinking about using Panaflo's on it instead.

-drasnor :fold:

drasnor

11 Jan 2004, 04:40am

Ok, I've got the board and system assembled. Here's the scoop:

The thru-hole mounts are indeed Intel Xeon hole configuration, which also happens to be the same as Socket423. Most Xeon HSF's come with heatsink retention mechanisms, so that isn't an issue. However, the only real decent Xeon cooler I found that met the not hideous requirement is the Intel Xeon stock sink w/ windtunnel, and unfortunately for me I don't have enough space to mount the fan on its side, and it'll probably be about as good as the MSI stock sinks if I mount the fan on top, so that option is out.

The MSI stock sinks are pretty loud and they aren't matched. The one down by the AGP slot is offset to allow lots of room by the graphics card, though cooling suffers. The other one is friggin loud. Everything is made by AVC. MSI does have this feature where the MB fan headers are 7V modded in the BIOS, then flip up to full speed if the core temp exceeds 60 C. The sinks are tolerable in this configuration, but the core temps are around 50-52 C, and these are $1000 processors so that really isn't acceptable.

No one sells MCX603 rev1 or rev2 heatsinks. They've been discontinued and are long gone. Instead, I looked around for Swiftech sinks with similar properties so I can mod them, and found the MCX462+. It's essentially the same sink, though the base has much less material removed around the edges. You'll notice that on the MCX603 it looks like they just took the MCX462+ and milled out all the copper around the raised up portion to the same level as the corners on the MCX462+. The "universal bracket", $3 extra with each sink you order, allows bolting the sink to any Socket423 or Socket478 motherboard, though limits you to 70mm fans. I took a look at the placement of the 80mm fan mounts and the Socket423/Socket603 holes on the universal bracket and it looks like I'll still be able to use 80mm fans if I knock off the Socket478 part of the bracket with my tin snips. You'll notice that the mount holes for extra mount hardware are in the same position on both, but the spot is occupied by an aluminum plate on the MCX603.

http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/mcx462/mcx462plus.jpghttp://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/mcx462/base.jpghttp://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/p4_s478_bracket.gif
MCX462+ (3"x3"x1.66", 650g) and universal bracket.

http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/MCX603/MCX603-R2-350X257.jpghttp://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/MCX603/MCX603-R2-base-lap-200x224.jpghttp://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/MCX603-SRBCKTS.jpg
MCX603 (3"x3"x1.66", 510g) and thru-motherboard bracket

CrazyPC was having a sale on MCX462+, so I ordered 2. I've got a couple RPM-sensing Panaflo H1A's on my desk just waiting for the Swifties to get in. I'll post a follow up when I get everything in and assembled. It should go fairly easily, since MSI put a massive steel plate behind each CPU socket with tapped inserts for the thru-motherboard holes. It looks like I'll be able to use Swiftech's screws in MSI's holes, meaning I won't have to pull the computer apart to install these. :rockon:

-drasnor :fold:

keto

11 Jan 2004, 05:41am

which opterons did you get? nice potential - tell us about the rest of the system and its intended usage?

drasnor

11 Jan 2004, 06:17am

The system is sitting on my desk right now, and except for the heatsinks and floppy drive cable it's in its final configuration:

Motherboard: MSI K8T Master2-FAR
Processor(s): 2x AMD Opteron 248 @ 2.2GHz, 1MB L2 cache
Memory: 1GB (2x512MB) Corsair TwinX PC3200RE-LLPT DDR400, 2-3-2-6 @ 2.65V
Graphics: ATI All in Wonder 9700 Pro 128MB
Chassis: Lian Li PC-7 w/ all Panaflo H1A fans.
NIC: Integrated Broadcomm gigabit LAN w/ boot ROM.
Storage: 2x Western Digital Caviar 160GB/8MB drives in RAID0 using SATA->PATA bridge boards and VIA Southbridge SATA RAID, 1x Western Digital SE 250GB/8MB for backing up the array.
Sound: Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2 Platinum
PSU: Antec TruePower EPS12v 550W, partially sleeved.
Optical Drives: Sony CRX300E 16x DVD, 48x24x48 CD-R/RW. Sony DW-U14A 4x2 DVD+/-R/RW, 24x16 CD-R/RW, 32x8 CD read/DVD read.
Other:
Internally-mounted ATI Remote Wonder
Internally-mounted Atech Flash Pro-9 USB2 multi-reader/writer.
3.5" floppy drive.
5.25" floppy drive w/ blue activity LED.
USRobotics 56k V.92 hardware PCI modem.
ALi-chipset USB2 adapter on PCI.

This is going to be my primary desktop and workstation at school, and it's going to last me for at least four more years without any significant upgrades (more RAM if needed to run Longhorn). I'm studying to be an aerospace engineer, so I'll be developing software for controlling aircraft and spacecraft, doing AutoCAD, possibly doing some computational fluid dynamics work, and simulating orbital constellations (satellites orbiting in formation). Additionally, it's going to take care of all my day-to-day stuff like surfing the internet, chatting, and gaming. I plan to use it occasionally for video capture and encoding. Right now it has Windows XP Professional (32-bit), but in a couple weeks it will also have Gentoo Linux with an A64 kernel and at an undetermined time in the future Windows XP 64-bit edition.

It also folds 24/7.

-drasnor :fold:

Omega65

16 Jan 2004, 03:19pm

Dual Opteron 248.... You Da Man!

:respect: :respect: :respect: :respect:

:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

drasnor

17 Jan 2004, 01:10am

Dual Opteron 248.... You Da Man!

:respect: :respect: :respect: :respect:

:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
Thank you!

Heatsinks came in yesterday, and the modding went fairly smoothly. I have no idea what these brackets are made out of, except that it isn't aluminum and isn't iron-bearing and isn't cut by my steel razor saw. No problem for the reinforced cutoff wheel on the Dremel though. I think the melting point is kind of low, since friction from the cutoff wheel got the piece I was cutting off to glow red.

The standoffs Swiftech uses are English threads, some UNC series. MSI uses 3mm metric threads in the holes around the socket, so I had to buy a new die and cut 3mm threads onto the Swiftech standoffs. That went fairly smoothly, I broke one standoff but Swiftech gives you an extra. Getting the broken standoff out of the die was a pain, so watch it when your die bottoms out against the standoff.

I don't have temps yet, so bear with me. It's certainly a lot quieter than with the stock sinks, and I'm hoping the very thin layer of Arctic Silver 5 will cool better than the thermal pads bundled with the stock sinks. I'll let you know once it's all warmed up.

-drasnor :fold:

drasnor

17 Jan 2004, 01:43am

TheBaron

17 Jan 2004, 01:57am

that seems pretty reasonable from what i know about opteron temps. hope everything stays good to go

Omega65

17 Jan 2004, 06:45am

Ok, temps are 51C and 46C for processor 1 and 2. Keep in mind that processor 1 is physically directly above processor 2 and that kinda makes sense. This is with two instances of FAH running. BIG improvement over stock sinks, which ran at 58C and 51C respectively. Don't know why these run so hot.

-drasnor :fold:

Those are probably Thermal Diode Temps.

My Athlon MP 2000+ 256K (1.66ghz) are at 50C running FAH, so be impressed with the Opteron 248 1MB 2.20ghz.

primesuspect

17 Jan 2004, 07:16am

I think drasnor wins the "sweetest short-media rig" award for the hour :D

drasnor

18 Jan 2004, 04:59am

I think drasnor wins the "sweetest short-media rig" award for the hour :D
:kneel:

It really is. Just wish the All in Wonder would work right. ATI keeps sending me busted ones for warranty service.

-drasnor :fold:

Geeky1

1 Feb 2004, 10:25pm

Drasnor, I'm looking at recommending this board to someone who's looking for a DV workstation. Let me see if I understand this correctly:

The brackets for the heatsinks will take standard P4 heatsinks that clip onto the brackets, but the hole spacing for the brackets is the same as for the Xeons, right?

drasnor

1 Feb 2004, 11:42pm

That's correct, though my board only came with one set of brackets (for the top CPU only). Other people have gotten board with two sets of brackets, though YMMV. In either case, the board comes with heatsinks that are either matched and are loud, copper-finned P4 heatsinks or one is like that and the other is weird-looking and quiet, though doesn't cool particularly well.

-drasnor :fold:

Justice

23 Apr 2004, 06:34am

Apologies if this thread is old, and if I've posted this somewhere else, but I am really really curious.

What do you guys think about installing two of these on the MSI K8T Master2?

http://www.systemcooling.com/aerocool_ht101-01.html

Thanks

Geeky1

23 Apr 2004, 07:32am

Won't work on the board.

Justice

23 Apr 2004, 08:26am

Okay, why not?

Enverex

23 Apr 2004, 12:04pm

Also, that board basically attaches the GFX card to the side of one of the processor heatsinks. I bet thats really good for cooling.

Geeky1

23 Apr 2004, 02:45pm

Okay, why not?

Heh... Sorry. I was being lazy last night... didn't want to type out an explanation ;D

The Aerocool attaches to the board by bolting through the motherboard if you use the P4 clip. The MSI board has Xeon hole spacing, not P4 spacing. Sooo, the heatsink won't fit.

Justice

23 Apr 2004, 03:13pm

Hmmm... By looking at this picture

http://www.systemcooling.com/images/reviews/Heatsinks/Aerocool_HT-101/contents_lg.jpg

I see the X bracket (P4) -- You're telling me that won't work? Damn!

I was actually more worried about the HSF sitting on top of the AGP card...

Okay then, so what about Thermaltake's solution?
http://www.thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0025/cl-p0025silentTower.htm

S478, Socket T, K7 & K8, @ 21 db...

Looks like the clip has a variety of holes too, so perhaps it would fit the MSI too, even though it says S478 only...

http://www.thermaltake.com/images/coolers/CL-P0025/clip.jpg

What's socket T anyway?

drasnor

23 Apr 2004, 03:26pm

The Master2 FAR supports heatsinks with a maximum footprint of 80mm square. Anything larger will interfere with the AGP slot on the lower processor and the other processor HSF on the upper processor. I really ought to take photos of how close they are in my system.

Enverex, you're probably right about GFX card cooling, but there's not a whole lot of space to play around with when you're shoving dual Opterons onto an ATX board. I mean, my Northbridge is right in front of my AGP slot, and all the IDE and floppy hookups are at the southeastern most point on the board. My All in Wonder 9800 Pro works at stock speed with the stock cooler, so I'm happy.

-drasnor :fold:

Geeky1

23 Apr 2004, 10:32pm

The thermaltake one will not work either. No Pentium 4 heatsink that bolts through the motherboard will work, period. Any bolt-on heatsink has to be a Xeon heatsink, any clip-on heatsink has to be a P4 heatsink.

drasnor

21 May 2004, 07:33pm

Okay, since I've gotten requests for photos of how I attached these, here they are. These were taken using my webcam because I don't have access to a digital camera at the moment, so I apologize for the quality. On the plus side, using the webcam afforded some unique angles.

http://s88927831.onlinehome.us/top.jpg
This is the top processor (CPU 0), taken with the machine powered on. You get a good view of where I cut off the extra metal from the optional s423 modules for the MCX462+. Just a reminder, these cuts are only required if you want to use 80mm fans instead of 70mm fans.

MSI has a large metal plate behind each CPU socket with threaded inserts coming out of the board. The end of the inserts don't sit flush with the surface of the board, so I added a flat washer at each hole for strain relief purposes. You can kinda see the washers here, sandwiched between the modded Swiftech standoffs and the board. The Swiftech standoffs had to be modified because they use an English thread on their standoffs while MSI's threaded inserts are 3mm metric threads. Luckily, it's a simple procedure to cut the right threads onto the standoffs.

http://s88927831.onlinehome.us/bottom.jpg
You can see pretty clearly in this shot that there isn't much clearance between the AGP card and the processor heatsink when using 80mm fans. It isn't a problem for me since I don't have anything sticking out the back of my card. Note that there is enough room for RAMsinks if that's your thing.

You get a great view of the modded retention mechanism here. It's just a metal plate with a few holes in it that screws into the heatsink base and has springs pushing it into the board. I believe the thru-board mount sold as an accessory for the MCX603 will work here without modification, but the ones I used were cheaper.

The amber "MSI DDR" heatsink on the right is right on top of the K8T800 northbridge. Yes, the northbridge is really underneath the graphics card.

Post any questions you have here or PM me.

-drasnor :fold:

P.S. Here's the mod I had to do to my Lian Li PC-7 to get dual processors not to melt the case. I thought it came out quite nicely.

Adam2-FAR

10 Jun 2004, 07:48am

Drasnor, do you think there's any way the V version of the MCX603 would fit on this board, and if not, do you think there's any way to make it fit on this board? Its angled pins cause it to exceed the 80mm limit, so I foresee it overhanging the AGP slot. It's flat on one side to allow two of them to sit side-by-side, and the other side is rounded and sticks out past the fan about 9mm (I think). Would the rounded side touch the top heatsink if the flat side of the bottom one was faced down toward the AGP? Can you get me a measurement on how far apart your fans are? Any info is appreciated.

TheBaron

10 Jun 2004, 03:52pm

he's a camp counselour at a boyscout camp for most of the summer, so he won't be able to give you those measurements until at least the end of this month (he may have a break for a couple days at some point). just letting you know

on the plus side, I'm sure his machines are diligently folding away in his absence :D

Adam2-FAR

11 Jun 2004, 05:47am

Well, I guess we'll do this the old-fashioned trial-and-error way. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

drasnor

12 Jun 2004, 08:05pm

There is a 1cm +/- 1mm gap between my two 80mm processor fans. There's 2mm between my lower fan and my AiW Radeon 9800 Pro. If you cut off the outer layer of pins, it ought to work.

SVC has MCX462+'s in stock though, so I wouldn't get the V's unless they were just a lot cheaper.

-drasnor :fold:

Thrax

12 Jun 2004, 09:14pm

Socket T is LGA775.

MisterB

16 Jun 2004, 07:49am

Drasnor, sweet setup!
Could you say something about the noise levels you have now? I agree the temps with the stock coolers seem a bit high, but my main irritation is when the fans go full speed.

drasnor

19 Jun 2004, 06:11pm

I'm using Panaflo 80mm 12H (the 32 dBA 2950RPM models) on each processor and on each of the four fan ports in my case. The four case fans are all speed-regulated by my Antec TruePower, and the two processor fans are run full speed all the time (not using the BIOS SmartFan speed control).

It sounds like someone whispering loudly, and I don't have any problems sleeping with it only 3' from my head. Most of the noise comes from the three hard drives and GPU fan anyway.

-drasnor :fold:

Adam2-FAR

19 Jun 2004, 10:20pm

I got my MCX603s and modded the standoffs just like you said, and they fit like a glove. I don't have the bottom one in right now, but if I did it would just barely be touching the backplate on my video card. Noise isn't a big concern, so I opted for the 80mm Tornadoes. I'll post temps when I get my PSU. And also CPU2 for that matter. Can't spend all my money at once, you know.

MisterB

27 Jun 2004, 10:20pm

Found this Swiftech cooler. Will a pair of these fit? I think the base size is ok, but I'm a bit worried about the width at the top.
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcx603-V.asp

Though it would be very nice to install some quiet 92mm fans :rolleyes:

Just noticed the width at the top is 105.2mm (4.14 inch) for the similar looking MCX6400-V (see below or http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcx6400-V.asp)
Will see if that is feasible when I get back home.

kimgar

30 Jun 2004, 08:26am

did you manage to fit those? 23 db would be real nice...

i'm having great troubles on killing the incredible noise from the msi stock coolers, is there really no other solution to this than modding, cutting and generally making a great mess?

i heard something from msi forums that coolJag has some xeon coolers that should fit the k8t master board, but i'm not sure...

too make my life easier i'm thinking of just changing the fans, but then there's the problem of what fans too choose?

this one seems nice:
http://www.smartcooler.de/proddata/PDD-LFx1580T.htm

21 db at 47.5 m3/h

the fan is 80mm, so i would need to get an 60mm to 80mm and 70mm to 80mm adapters and smack the smartcoolers on top, and voila!

would this work? i have dual 244 opteron's, but not a clue about how much m3/h they will need, considering that the fans will be on top of adapters measuring 40 mm in height...

drasnor

3 Jul 2004, 07:57pm

MisterB: I think Adam2FAR got the MCX603-V's to fit on his, so it may be worth a shot though emember you'll need to do some mods. MCX6400-V probably won't work since the Master2-FAR doesn't accept normal Opteron and Athlon64 heatsinks. Either way, I can't find room for 92mm fans.

Kimgar: The mods involved aren't that difficult provided you have the proper tools. Most Xeon heatsinks will work, though they tend to be loud.

-drasnor :fold:

MisterB

6 Jul 2004, 09:16am

Adam2-FAR

7 Jul 2004, 01:58am

Actually, I had to RMA the board. :banghead:

So those temps and pictures may be a little while.

As for the standoffs, you'll need a 3mm "die" you can pick up at your local hardware store for about five bucks.

Edit: The die I bought looks like this (http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1290729&cp=1813507..1259342&parentPage=family) (but they don't have the 3mm ones on there).

MisterB

7 Jul 2004, 08:48am

I now know what is meant by "die", thanx.
But why did you have to RMA? Because I'm still wondering why people report so much difference in cpu temps, everything ranging from 40C to 60C for idle use (I'm just below 60, about 58 I think but that is with the fans tuned down). Is this board related, or maybe heatsink?
This also makes it hard to chose cpu fans to go with the heat sinks. I do like quiet.... but how much airflow is sufficient, 25 CFM, 30 CFM, 40 CFM??

But once I'm starting the adventure I'll post my experiences ;)

Adam2-FAR

9 Jul 2004, 05:56am

The RMA was unrelated to temperature or any issue with cooling. It just wouldn't POST. It was a refurb to begin with; that's why I had to find an alternative to the stock coolers (I didn't get them).

drasnor

10 Jul 2004, 09:06pm

Ah, stupid.... :banghead:
I could have read the thread more carefully myself, but thnx drasnor!
I think i will go for the 603's, but first holiday. This will be a nice project for august ;)
Just for preparation, what does a noob (=me) need/do to achieve this:
To mod the standoffs, you're going to need:
A bench vise or some way to clamp the standoff to your workbench.
A 3mm metric die. I bought mine at our local Breed & Co.
A die wrench that fits your die.
A can of light machine oil.

Step 1: Clamp standoff so that all of the thread is outside the clamp.
Step 2: Drip a few drops of light machine oil onto the standoff's thread.
Step 3: Insert your die into your die wrench and lock it in place.
Step 4: Press opening in die over standoff's thread firmly while rotating die in clockwise direction to start threading.
Step 5: Once thread is started, simply rotate die clockwise until the die bottoms out against the standoff. Stop twisting at this point or you'll break the standoff. It's ok to break one or two, since Swiftech gives you extras, but it's a royal pain to get the broken standoff out of the die.
Step 6: Back the die out by rotating the die wrench counterclockwise.
Step 7: Wipe down your new 3mm metric standoffs with a shop rag or paper towel.
Repeat for all 8 standoffs.

To mod the socket mounts (assuming you bought the universal ones instead of the MCX603 thru-motherboard mounts), you're going to need:
A bench vise or some way to clamp down the mount securely to your workbench.
A Dremel high-speed rotary tool (modder's best friend) w/ cutter mandril and a (few) reinforced cutting wheel.
A flat bastard file.
Step 1: Identify holes belonging to s423/s603 pattern and mark.
Step 2: Clamp mount securely to your workbench. You do not want it to slip at all.
Step 3: Attach high speed reinforced cutting wheel to Dremel tool as per Dremel manual. Be sure to read the Dremel manual cover to cover and remember to let the speed do the work. It doesn't have very high torque.
Step 4: Cut across other holes in mount, leaving as much metal as you can around the s423/s603 holes and where the motherboard screws go through. Be steady with your hands while you do this or you'll apply force on the surface of the cutting wheel and frag it. The mount will probably glow red hot in places and shoot sparks while you do this.
Step 5: File as needed.
Repeat for other three mounts.

Have fun!

-drasnor :fold:

geerten

14 Jul 2004, 11:56am

Well, I understand just enough of that to know that I shouldn't try it..

@Kimgar
Your idea suits me better. A screwdriver is about the most complicated tool I can handle :-)
But I checked out what I think is the original CPU1 fan (thermaltake, 70x70x1.5 5500RPM, 44.5dBA, yup, that must be it..) and it shows an airflow of 43.2CFM, which would amount to 80-90m3/h. Less than that will probably do, but the fan you suggested does only 47.5, which seems a bit low.

They do have some other interesting options though:
- LFM1580HV (3000RPM, 70m3/h, 38dBA). This may not be as quiet as we'd like, but it should work with the smart fan option.
- LFM3580XTL (up to 3200RPM, 82.5m3/h, 32dBA.) This does not work with smart fan. Instead it has it's own sensor, and adjusts the speed accordingly.

I ordered both, to see which one works best.

3dfreelancer

15 Jul 2004, 07:31am

Hi Drasnor

Your input regarding the cooling mod is highly appreciated.

With the risk of appearing to have understood nothing could you confirm that you have removed the black plastic retention-brackets surface mounted on the mb?

If some day, you have the cpu�s off the board - could you please take a picture of your modification to the cooler and standoff, please ;-)

Kind regards

3dfreelancer

geerten

17 Jul 2004, 08:09am

I have to correct myself regarding the CFM ~ m3/h calculation. I used a factor 2 as a rough estimate, but in fact it should be 1.62. So 43.2CFM would be just 70m3/h, rather than 80-90.

3dfreelancer

17 Jul 2004, 12:38pm

I dont know if this will interrest anyone, but I just cleaned of some old thermal paste of the stock MSI heatsinks. It seems that the "odd" heatsink near the AGP slot has been applied with a layer of varnish, while the other heatsink has not. Probably to keep the copper goodlooking? I dont know if this has any thermal implications but woth a try.

3dfreelancer

drasnor

18 Jul 2004, 08:19pm

With the risk of appearing to have understood nothing could you confirm that you have removed the black plastic retention-brackets surface mounted on the mb?
That's correct. The mod has the heatsinks mounting through the holes used to mount the plastic heatsink retention mechanism. I'm probably not going to take the whole thing apart anytime soon, but if I feel like fooling with it I'll be sure to take some photos. :D

-drasnor :fold:

geerten

19 Jul 2004, 08:55am

drasnor

19 Jul 2004, 04:12pm

He was talking about lapping the heatsink, which is a mod that will nearly always yield results. There are several threads on lapping heatsinks, so I'm not going to discuss it here.

Lapping the CPU's helps also, but I paid $1000 each for these CPU's when I bought them last year w/ 3 year warranty and I'm not ready to void that warranty.

-drasnor :fold:

geerten

20 Jul 2004, 10:27am

Ah, I see now. It's about the shine on the contact surface, not on the outside...
Should've done more reading before I posted. Thanks.

geerten

2 Aug 2004, 03:47pm

Today I received the fans I ordered at www.smartcooler.de. I put the LFM1580HV's in and am quite happy with te result: at full speed (slightly less than 3000RPM) they perform similar to the original fans, but with a fraction of the noise. At smartfan speed fan1 does much better than the original, fan2 slightly worse. (Originally fan1 would speed up every 1-2 min, even when the CPUs were idle. Now fan1 will stabilize but fan2 needs to speed up at times, but only every 7-9 minutes, and at this noise level you hardly notice it.)

Two tips for people who want to try this too:
- I think they changed some of the partnumbers last week, so check before you order.
- the 7-to-8 fan adapter doesn't fit between the handles that keep the heatsink in place. I took the original fan apart and used the outer part to put the adapter on top of that.

I also ordered a pair of LFM3580XTL's, which can regulate their speed by temperature. They have a sensor: a pair of 8 cm black wires joined at the end. I'd like to try these next, but I'm a bit scared they may not handle it if the sensor is not in the right place. Does anyone know what would be the best way to mount these ??

geerten

4 Aug 2004, 08:50am

I've tried the XTL's now, with the sensorwire hanging more or less loose between the copper heatsink and it's metal shield. For CPU 2 this worked out quite well, for CPU 1 I may want to find a better location because it's underestimating the temperature by at least 10-15C. Still its running fast enough (~2000RPM) to keep the CPU cool, and it does sense an increase in temperature and reacts as needed, so this solution also works well, and its even quieter.

drasnor

4 Aug 2004, 10:25am

Generally speaking, I wouldn't use temperature-controlled fans on my processors. The only exception is if the thermal diode in the processor was the thermal sensor, and even then I'd be wary. MSI has a processor fan temperature control built into the board if you're interested. I think they named it Smart CPU fan control and it's accessible through the BIOS.

-drasnor :fold:

geerten

4 Aug 2004, 10:54am

There's two problems with the BIOS facility:
- with my CPU's the BIOS readings are too high (Newcastle syndrome) so you really cannot configure it correctly. (Waiting for a BIOS upgrade to correct this.)
- even though the smartfan facility of the winbond chip allows de controlling voltage to be set in 16 steps, MSI has wired it in such a way that only two speeds are available. As a result the temperatures would go up and down all the time, with the fans switching between the two speeds. In my current setup it will reach a steady state, and unless the load is very high for a long time the temperature will actually be lower than I could achieve through the BIOS.

Running the fans at full speed all of the time was not an option with the original fans because of the noise. But it is with the sensorless pair I tried on monday, and I may revert to that setup, because it's even cooler, with the soundlevel completely acceptable.
However, I've also been thinking about using those to replace the casefans, which are now the loudest part of the computer.

Megatron

11 Sep 2004, 09:15am

Say does anyone know where the 4 screws and the 2 retention modules can be bought at? Or is this an MSI only part..... :usflag:
In which case has anyone asked MSI If anyone sold these parts?

drasnor

12 Sep 2004, 02:10am

The four screws are standard 3mm metric screws. The retention modules I can't find anywhere, but they're made by AVC (Asian Vital Components) if that helps.

-drasnor :fold:

Megatron

12 Sep 2004, 06:36am

The four screws are standard 3mm metric screws. The retention modules I can't find anywhere, but they're made by AVC (Asian Vital Components) if that helps.

-drasnor :fold:

Yeah, I found out about the screws, 3mm, I looked up AVC, And I left a message on MSIs forums about this, Some have said that 603 water blocks and heatsinks won't fit as one of the holes is off by a couple of millimeters and thats why I asked, It's either that or try and adapt a real 478 retention mechanism(I saw one in Yellow Plastic too). MSI could have just used a real 478 retention mechanism instead and saved US all a lot of trouble(Cheap Bastards), If I had the money I'd just copy the ones that I have and sell the extra copies to those Who asked for a nominal fee to recoup My costs(Hang any copyright too).

-_Nebuli_-

16 Sep 2004, 03:02am

drasnor

16 Sep 2004, 03:09am

-_Nebuli_-

16 Sep 2004, 03:14am

thats what i needed to know. thanks.

Megatron

16 Sep 2004, 03:19am

As far as waterblocks go, any xeon or socket 423 block will fit? the msi site says any 4X8cm block will fit and gives a nice innovatek plug for their waterblock. but is that measurement specific to the socket 423 spacing or just a generalized measurement? maybe i missed this somewhere in the thread, i apologize in advance if i did.

I wish It were 423, As far as I know no one makes a water block for socket 423, At least two make 603 blocks as that is a Xeon type and so is 604, I'm trying to get 2 retention modules and the 4-3mm screws from MSI as MSI is who had them custom made, then I'll be able to mount either 2-SLK-947U Thermalright heatsinks or 2-SLK-948 Thermalright heatsinks or one of each, Look at both and You'll notice that They look a like and except for a couple of parts They are. One user on 2cpu.com said that He had to modify a pair of Xeon water blocks in one corner by a couple of mm as one hole was off by a couple of millimeters, So I don't know how compatible the holes are on the motherboard with Xeon type Water block mountings. The retention modules are for clip-on socket 478 heatsinks.

Megatron

16 Sep 2004, 03:28am

Yeah, anything with an 80mm square or less footprint and Socket423/603 thru-board mount holes will likely work, though you may need to modify the mounting hardware to work with the MSI CPU support plates (but if you've read through this thread you'd know that).

-drasnor :fold:

I think this 80mm square bit is just for the cpu fans, As long as the heatsinks aren't any wider than 80mm, Even an SLK-947U or an SLK-948 should fit and note both need 478 retention modules as these heatsinks can be clipped on using the modules from MSI, As I don't know If either of the two can use the holes on the motherboard though.

drasnor

16 Sep 2004, 03:31am

Rebuttal:

Socket423 hole spacing = Socket603 hole spacing = Socket604 hole spacing.
They sell the 3mm screws at the hardware store; it's where I bought my 3mm die.
SLK947's won't fit because they're oriented the wrong way (they interfere with each other and the lower one interferes with the AGP slot, believe me this is the first idea I explored), see page 1 or 2 because we already had this discussion. Even if I had 2 sets of the s478 retention modules they wouldn't fit.
You have to remove the retention modules to attach thru-board 423/603/604 heatsinks.
Your friend on 2cpu probably had blocks where the holes weren't drilled properly on the block necessitating the mod. Not all water blocks are created equal.
The holes on my board lined up perfectly with the holes in my MCX462+ thru-board mounts.
I did the whole mod on the MCX462+ because I was unable to locate a second pair of the custom MSI s478 retention modules. I wish you better luck than I had in my search.

EDIT:// 80mm is the keepout zone for components on the board.
EDIT:// Typo- I modded MCX462+, not MCX478+.

-drasnor :fold:

-_Nebuli_-

16 Sep 2004, 03:59am

what about the innovatek blocks MSI mentions, anyone had any luck with those?

Karlsson

23 Mar 2005, 12:13am

so do ANY socket 604/603 heatsink work? are exactly the same size? I would like to get something like this, but I dont now where to get them in Europe

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v380/pandora2x/2msi.jpg

drasnor

23 Mar 2005, 12:26am

Any Socket603/604 heatsink the meets the previously discussed criteria will work. I don't live in Europe so I can't help you there.

-drasnor :fold:

Karlsson

23 Mar 2005, 12:33am

so nothing bigger than 80mm, isnt it? but the distance between the holes in sockets 603, 604 are the same?

drasnor

23 Mar 2005, 12:48am

so nothing bigger than 80mm, isnt it? but the distance between the holes in sockets 603, 604 are the same?That is correct.

-drasnor :fold:

Karlsson

23 Mar 2005, 12:54am

what about 604 nocona? is it the same? for example at swiftech page

Part # MCX604-VRK for Xeon "Nocona" is also available for upgrade of all MCX603-V heatsinks versions shipped after 12-15-03 (see note 2)

Karlsson

23 Mar 2005, 01:25am

for example, this is a 604

http://ecd.coolermaster.com/Latest1.gif

Cooler Dimension: 89 x 78 x 59 mm

Its 89mm long, but this should work?

doc0

14 May 2005, 03:12am

Hi all,
I'm new here!

thx dresnor for help people with this board!

I have just one question (yes i real all the thread! :D ) >>

I have this board too but i'm looking for a cooling system. :)
I want to buy the simplest way a P4 s478 because i have two retention bracket for this type of socket on my board!
can anyone give me a good p478 heatsink that i can use with this board?
i'm thinking about this one :

coolermaster 1 (http://www.coolermaster-europe.com/eng/products/cpu/standard_ip4/ki4-7h52a.asp)
or this one ? :
thermaltake (http://www.thermaltake.com/coolers/itbu/cl-p0064/cl-p0064.htm)

THX in advance for ypur help!

drasnor

14 May 2005, 03:26am

doc0

14 May 2005, 01:45pm

Either of those will work fine though the Thermaltake one looks a little loud. The CoolerMaster one looks the same as one of the two that came with my board except a whole lot quieter.

-drasnor :fold:

thx for your quick and great help drasnor !!! :respect:

i will post a photo of my full operating config asap.... :cool:

drasnor

14 May 2005, 02:51pm

thx for your quick and great help drasnor !!! :respect:

i will post a photo of my full operating config asap.... :cool:
No problem! We look forward to seeing your machine. Welcome to Short-Media!

-drasnor :fold:

e2npau

8 Jun 2005, 09:32am

Hello,

I have an master-2 on order but I have some real trouble finding a cooler that fits that I can buy from our companys "prefered vendors".

I have found this one

http://www.spirecoolers.com/images/products/SP472B13.jpg

Full spec at:

http://www.spirecoolers.com/fcc.asp?ProdID=200

Would this one fit or is it to big? Will it be able to cool an opteron 250?

Any help would be much apriciated!

/N

drasnor

8 Jun 2005, 03:14pm

Looks good to me. If it can cool Prescotts, you should be alright. I'd hold back on ordering those until you get your board though. If it doesn't have retention mechanisms on both sockets you'll have to shop for Xeon heatsinks.

-drasnor :fold:

nicklogan

17 Jun 2005, 07:22pm

Just thought I'd let people know that it is possible to use two of Artic Cooling's Freezer 4 heat pipe radiators on this board. It requires buying an additional adaptor if your board didn't come with two installed (http://www.koolance.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=25_35&products_id=103 and 4 3 mm screws). You also will probably have to trim the fins on the one nearest the AGP slot. I scored the fins using a razor knife about 2 mm away from the heat pipe and flexed it back and forth with needle nose pliers - breaks cleanly . with little effort. I haven't run temp tests yet but they are extremely quiet - the hard drives are louder.

blueox

3 Jul 2005, 07:15pm

Hi all, I'm a new one here.
I have just bought a K8T Master2-Far and wondering where to find a substitute of my current silent fans for my future-retired dual Athlon MP Gigabyte motherboard, I reached here.
I have to notice the MSI I got has only 1 plastic base for 1st PCU, the other CPU has no plastic base.
I really like all the ideas here. The last solution using coolers from Arctic cooling seems fancy and silent. Thermaltake has also just released a 19db 1800rpm fan called Golden Orb II, which I can find nowhere for now.

My current case is a Thermaltake Xaser III with 7 fans, an ultra silent powersupply of 650W with 2 fans from same manufacturer a dual Athlon MP 2GHz Gigabyte motherboard with 2Gb of memory and some IDE hard disks... :)

Noise is something very important for the place I have the server (which is working 24/7) so I really need your advice about what to put for cooling best with low noise the same time.

drasnor

5 Jul 2005, 04:53am

Not much I can really add with regard to your situation beyond what's already discussed in the thread. My setup has been working reliably for the past 2 years and I sleep next to the machine. I can't really speak for the others here though.

-drasnor :fold:

blueox

5 Jul 2005, 07:06am

Drasnor, congrats for your efforts on helping out people about this puzzled motherboard on the cooling section.
After all this discussion also, I can not figure out finally, what coolers did you use?
Normal coolers for P4 or what?
My machine is working 24/7 and quiet operation is a must.

blueox

7 Jul 2005, 12:22am

I'm about purchasing a Swiftech MCX604-V. I was wondering, is it the same with MCX603-V? If someone can help , let me know.
I have found this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3673&item=6776946140

drasnor

7 Jul 2005, 03:53pm

I ended up using a pair of Swiftech MCX-462+ heatsinks that were originally designed to mount thru-board on single-processor Socket A (Athlon) systems. However, I noticed that the design of the MCX-462+ was identical to the MCX-603 (a thru-board Socket603/604 Xeon heatsink) so I modified a pair of mounts for the MCX-603 to fit on my MCX-462+ because that was cheaper than buying MCX-603s, then modified the mount hardware to be compatible with the metric threads on the Master2-FAR's retention mechanism.

-drasnor :fold:

geerten

4 Aug 2005, 08:33am

I've been using this board for over a year now, quite happy with it, but recently a noticed a degradation in the cooling performance.
The setup: 2 x Opteron 246 CPU, heatsinks that came with the board, but I replaced the fans (less noisy).
The symptoms: with this setup the CPU-temperatures used to go up and down immediately with the CPU load, but now it goes up much slower and never down at all. Also, even when idling the temps keep rising slowly until they stabilize at about 5deg (Celsius) higher then what used to be the peek temp before.
My first diagnosis was the thermal paste going bad, so I took it to a shop to have the heatsinks removed and new paste applied. The guy confirmed that the old compound looked dried out, and he replaced it, but it only marginally improved the cooling, not nearly like what it used to be.
So either my diagnosis was wrong, or the diagnosis was right but the solution was wrong.
I'd really appreciate any help here: right now I dare not run my computer for a prolonged time, or run anything heavy on the CPU's without monitoring the temps all the time..

drasnor

4 Aug 2005, 02:34pm

Your man might have used cheap thermal paste though I'm not sure if that makes a 5 C difference. Check and see if the heatsink vents are clogged with dust bunnies. What are the actual load and idle temps?

-drasnor :fold:

seaharrior

20 Sep 2005, 02:41pm

Hello All,

I just came across this thread today. I wish I had seen it before when I was looking for cooling solutions for my MSI.Yes the Fans have real Loud Noise, could make people crazy if they use computer for long time. Anyways, when i could not find anything to replace orignal fans.. I got an idea and thried this.

I replaced the MSI fan with the AMD's Orignal fan that came with the FX51 processor. Initially when I had FX51, I removed the orignal AMD fan and replaced it with thermaltake so I had the spare. I just removed the AMD factory orignal fan and placed it on top of the MSI's heatsink. So far it works like a charm. The sound is completely gone and looks like my computer is working in Stealth mode.

I wanted to get your openion.. if I should contiune using this fan or need to replace.. what do u say? temp in bios is 50 - 51C.

Thanks in advance!

drasnor

20 Sep 2005, 07:03pm

It's a little high for idle temps, but still quite acceptable.

-drasnor :fold:

milo001

20 Sep 2005, 09:56pm

I gather that most of the posts in this thread reffer to the K8T Master2 Board. I just purchased the K8N Master2 board. I have not yet received it, but there is no indication that it includes any CPU cooling device. As I understand the K8T did include two rather strange heatsinks with loud fans.

I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with the K8N Master2 FAR Board and would know if it has the same heat sink issues.

The problem described on the thread seem to be caused by the cpu being too close to the video slot. The K8N has 2 PCI-E 16X so if one is not doing SLI perhaps the video board could be placed on the other PCI-E slot. I am attempting to include a picture of the board (don't know if it will work).

From the picture it seems to not include the plastic mounting braclets for the heatsink, so it must mount through the holes on the board.

They also seem to be pushing adding a RAM Cooling fan when getting this board. MSI makes it and mounts to the chassis and hinges over the RAM slots. Is this necessary?

Thanks for any advice.

edit 9-21: The manual for the board says in regards to the cooling of the CPU to go to the AMD WEB site to get their recommendations for this processor. But from what i have read here, the stuff that matches this procesor (Opteron) does not match the hole patter for the heasink on this board. Unles the K8N is different from the K8T, but from the pictures the holes around the processor look to me as if they are in the same location on both boards.

David

milo001

28 Sep 2005, 07:20pm

Update.

I received the board and actually this box (extra large) came with the CPU coolers and the RAM fan also. Too bad I had already purchased new Heatsinks/fans for the CPU. I guess the'll go in the drawer for next project.

drasnor

28 Sep 2005, 09:41pm

I didn't know the K8N was out yet. Nice to hear it came with all that gear, but to answer your question I really doubt the RAM fan is necessary. Every other computer on the planet gets by just fine without one. Tell us about the boxed heatsinks that the K8N comes with. Are they obnoxiously loud, cool well, etc?

-drasnor :fold:

milo001

28 Sep 2005, 09:56pm

drasnor,

Thanks for the reply. By looking at the fans that came with the unit they look to be same as the ones on the K8T (a co-worker built one witht he K8T) and i may not be the best person to answer the noise questions as all the systems i have build so far have been noisy for one reason or another, so although they are not quiet, they do not seem extra loud to me. They start loud and then slow down to a quieter mode.

Space for the heatsinks is still at a premium as there are caps around the sockets, and the one next to the video card is still like right on the vidieo card.

The RAM fan is not very large, and probably adds to some of the noise. Does not look all that useful actually, but i put it in anyway

Everything else shuld be about the same, except for the NForce4 instead of Via thing.

Still installing the OS so can't speak about stability and such at the moment.

Update 9/30/05: System is very quick, OS went in fine, but Creative's XFi card messed the whole thing up. From what I have been able to learn is that XFi and NForce4 do not get along until a new BIOS update for the System Board. Not knowing when this will come out, i will try Adigy2 ZS on Monday and hope that fixes the problem. re-installing OS now.

Thanks

blueox

4 Dec 2005, 05:02pm

Hi all. After some months of achieving my new K8T-Master2-FAR (without socket for 2nd CPU) I have ended up using the ultra-silent Freezer 4 coolers from Arctic Cooling (http://www.arctic-cooling.com) , which are cheap ones (about 22eur in Greece) compared to other silent coolers from Thermaltake that you need to spend the double money in total.
Also, since my motherboard had no CPU adapter in the 2nd CPU position, I had to buy one from a Koolance (http://www.koolance.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=25_35&products_id=103) dealer in my country and 4x3mm screws ;) otherwise you can't install ANY Socket 478 cooler on the 2nd CPU.
Using these coolers, I got temperatures of 50 degrees Celcius using WinXP Pro in idle mode, and about 53 degrees when the CPUs are working 99%.
The "patent" was the following.
Freezer 4s are shipped with fans "looking" inside the case, and not outside, meaning the hot air from the CPU is directed not outside the box. 2 actions needed to be done:
1st. I had to unscrew the 2 basement screws that holding the clips from both the coolers and place the clips upside/down.
2nd. The cooler for the 2nd CPU needed to be moderated, so to not "touching" the circuits side of the VGA card. You will need to trim the fins of the side nearest the VGA card. To do this you will need a paper-cutter or a knife, to make straight lines on each aluminum piece of the cooler and then with the fingertips or needle nose pliers, you move upside/down and is breaks cleanly (remember to not cut the last 4 towards the fan base :D .

Below is my equipment:

Midi Tower Lian Li V1100 Plus S
Temperatures Monitor Panel 3.5" Lian Li Silver
MSI K8T-Master2-FAR (for dual cpu)
2xAMD Opteron 246 2.0GHz
2xFreezer 4 coolers
MSI FX 5600 XT video card (256mb RAM)
Hercules Prophetview 720 LCD monitor 15"
Western Digital 80GB hard disk SATA1 (8mb cache) for C drive
Maxtor 6 L300S0 300GB hard disk SATA1 (16mb cache) for D drive
Plextor PX-716A DVDR
NEC ND-3540 DVDR
Creative X-Fi Fatality
PSU Thermaltake 600W ultra-silent

I'm using the Speedfan (http://www.speedfan.com) program for monitoring the temperatures of the system. Witht the current system, I'm having the following temperatures (in celcius, room temp.was 22 degrees):
CPU1: 50
CPU2: 52
System: 40
ACPI: 40
Video CPU: 45
Video ram: 26
HD1: 25
HD2: 25

Conclusions:
1.MSI Master2-FAR will use ANY cooler for socket 478 (Pentium 4). U can use large ones if you are using single CPU version and up to 70mm if you want to use dual cpu.
2.I am fully suggesting the Freezer 4 coolers to everyone is using the current motherboard, they are cheap and effective (coolers needs to be moderated first). If we want to over-clock the processors, then Freezer 4 are useless. I am happy with them because they are very silent and effective. And silence is what matters the most in such machines used 24/7 inside our homes.

I got the idea from another user from the same forum about the Freezer 4 coolers, but that guy didn't switched the fans to blow on the outter side of the case, so it's useless, cause using them like they are shipped from the factory, you'll get temperatures of 60-63 degrees celsius.

Any questions are welcome :thumbsup: .
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8558/dsc007455kr.th.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc007455kr.jpg)

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4622/dsc007464yr.th.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc007464yr.jpg)

mrdollar

18 Dec 2005, 09:54pm

Can you use one single FX-53 processor with this board (K8N Master2)? Will it run with just one processor?

blueox

18 Dec 2005, 10:13pm

Please click on the following MSI link (http://msicomputer.co.uk/products.aspx?product_id=703651&cat_id=79) for more details and click the QVL link.
The FX 53 is supported only by K8T-Master2FAR mobo (which I am using) and not from the K8N-Master2FAR
I see no reason of buying the K8N, it's almost the same price, but dual CPU is much much better, I suggest you to buy 2 used Opterons of any speed from eBay. It's big difference. I have tested dual core and I can say FX sucks compared to 2 Opterons (any of them above 246) :)

drasnor

19 Dec 2005, 07:13am

Can you use one single FX-53 processor with this board (K8N Master2)? Will it run with just one processor?You can run it with a single FX-53 if you want, just make sure you put it in the CPU0 socket or it won't boot.

Blueox: there are lots of reasons why he might want to run a single FX and not dual Opterons, like this is the only readily available cheap 940 board left and he might already have an FX.

-drasnor :fold:

blueox

19 Dec 2005, 07:38am

The K8N can run only one CPU, choosen from the supported CPUs at MSI's K8N webpage, which does not mention AMD FX. Nobody told it can't run single one, just that 2 CPUs are more fast.
Supported CPUs for K8N-Master2FAR (According to MSI's website):
Vendor Description Frequency
AMD Opteron Dual-Core 280 2.4GHz
AMD Opteron Dual-Core 275 2.2GHz
AMD Opteron Dual-Core 270 2.0GHz
AMD Opteron Dual-Core 265 1.8GHz
AMD Opteron Dual-Core 265HE 1.8GHz
AMD Opteron Dual-Core 260HE 1.6GHz
AMD Opteron 254 2.8GHz
AMD Opteron 252 2.6GHz
AMD Opteron 250 2.4GHz
AMD Opteron 248 2.2GHz
AMD Opteron 246 2.0GHz
AMD Opteron 244 1.8GHz
AMD Opteron 242 1.6GHz
AMD Opteron 240 1.4GHz
AMD Opteron 246HE 2.0GHz
AMD Opteron 240EE 1.4GHz
AMD Opteron 150 2.4GHz
AMD Opteron 148 2.2GHz
AMD Opteron 146 2.0GHz
AMD Opteron 144 1.8GHz
AMD Opteron 142 1.6GHz
AMD Opteron 140 1.4GHz
AMD Opteron 146HE 2.0GHz
AMD Opteron 140EE 1.4GHz

Meaning, K8N will run only Opterons.

drasnor

19 Dec 2005, 08:01am

I missed he was asking about the K8N Master2-FAR. Thought he was referring to the K8T. I'll bet the K8N will run those old FX chips as well but MSI has been historically slow about actually writing down support for anything. Worst comes to worst you can always return your board. If you're looking for a single 940 board though Foxconn makes a really nice one that I've worked with: http://www.foxconnchannel.com/products_motherboard_2.cfm?pName=NFPIK8AA-8EKRS

Newegg used to sell it but I'm sure you'll be able to find someone else that has it.

-drasnor :fold:

Donut

15 Jan 2006, 05:52pm

I realize this is kind of an old thread, but I found some boards on E-Bay relatively cheap and was wondering if there is an AGP/Pci lock when you try to overclock it. 2CPU has a rather large thread on this board but I'm just to lazy to read it all.

nicklogan

27 Mar 2006, 02:29pm

I got the idea from another user from the same forum about the Freezer 4 coolers, but that guy didn't switched the fans to blow on the outter side of the case, so it's useless, cause using them like they are shipped from the factory, you'll get temperatures of 60-63 degrees celsius.

blueox,
Although it's not visible in the pictures I posted, there is a fan mounted on the side case cover which blows air out from directly above the Freezer4 fan exhaust area. I found this to work better than blowing the air against the back of the case.

nicklogan

http://www.short-media.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16543&d=1119031663

milo001

27 Mar 2006, 02:40pm

nicklogan

27 Mar 2006, 03:12pm

I like the idea, kind of reversing the air flow. but if I may ask a stupid question, are you using the standard mounting clips that come on the board?
After so many months with this unit, the noise of the CPU coolers is realy getting annoying, so i am ready to try something different.

I bought new heat sink mounts from Koolance. See the link at the original post here:

http://www.short-media.com/forum/showpost.php?p=287329&postcount=97

nicklogan

29 Mar 2006, 05:43pm

I bought new heat sink mounts from Koolance. See the link at the original post here:

http://www.short-media.com/forum/showpost.php?p=287329&postcount=97

EDIT 3/29/06 To clarify, I only had to get one set of clips - one of the original heat sink mounts was ok.

milo001

29 Mar 2006, 06:54pm

Thanks, that means I can use the originals on my board since it had both of them.

RTLdan

13 Apr 2006, 03:37am

Hello,
I'm a newbie when it comes to building computers. I built my first computer ever a few months ago, but the noise has been driving me insane - especially since I built this to be an audio workstation!

Basically, if possible, I would like to replace ONLY the fan, and leave the heatsink that came with the board on. So here are my couple of questions:

*Does the heatsink have anything to do wih the noise besides keeping temperatures low for the fan?

*What size fans fit best on the stock heatsinks?

*Is there a particular fan that works exceptionally well at keeping noise down and keeping things cool?

I've read the whole thread a few times, and have found a lot of helpful information. Thank you everyone who has been helping for so long!

Thanks in advance,
-Daniel Rheaume

-----------------------------
My system
-----------------------------
MSI K8T-Master 2 Far
(x1) Opteron 246
1gb Samsung Registered RAM
Rackmount Case (built by someone online - don't know the brand)
(x2) 200 GB Seagate Hard Drive
ATI Radeon 9000

drasnor

13 Apr 2006, 04:12am

If you have two matched stock heatsinks, they both take 70mm x 15mm fans. You can find these at various places online, try http://www.svc.com or http://www.newegg.com. If you have one of the offset heatsinks, it takes 60mm fans. You can verify this by measuring the edge with a ruler.

70mm is an oddball size halfway between the extremely common 60mm and 80mm sizes. As far as brand goes, I can't recommend any one brand in particular but if you read the fans' specifications it should tell you anything you need to know. Quiet in my book is <32dBA though your mileage may vary. You'll want as much airflow as you can get, try to find specifications on the stock fan to get an idea for how much it provides.

-drasnor :fold:

RTLdan

13 Apr 2006, 05:10am

Drasnor,
Thank you for such a quick and helpful reply.

I just wanted to clarify one thing: Are you saying then that it is possible to get noise down to quiet levels by replacing only the fan and not the heatsink?

More for Drasnor, or anybody else that would like to help:

I see a lot of fans that have about 28 Cfm. However, I vaguely remember reading on this board that the stock fan was about 43 Cfm.
Did I read right? If so, is this a huge difference? Do I make up for the difference with a good case fan?
(I'm using the stock case fan right now and plan to upgrade at the same time.)

One last thing: I noticed when you (Drasnor) were talking about your specs, I noticed that the RPM was fairly low for the amount of air it was blowing. Do I want to look for lower RPM along with the other specs?

Thanks so much!
-Daniel

drasnor

13 Apr 2006, 03:06pm

Good questions!

Yes, it is possible to get noise down to quiet levels by replacing only the fan but not the heatsink. The problem is though that if the fan control in the K8T's BIOS is kicking the fans up to full speed then they aren't moving enough air through the heatsink. However, you may have the fan control disabled in your BIOS (full speed all the time).

I don't use the stock heatsinks but instead use larger, heavier ones that take 80mm fans. Generally speaking, larger the fan, the lower the RPM needed to move a given amount of air. Also, usually the lower the RPM the quieter the fan.

Typically most 70mm^2 x 15mm thick fans move about the same amount of air as any other for a given RPM setting. If your speed control is disabled then first I would try running the machine with it enabled for a bit and see if the machine can manage without kicking into higher RPMs. It'll be very noticable, going from a quiet whirr to the vacuum cleaner sound nearly instantly.

If it stays quiet for a few days at full load I'd leave it as is, but if it can't manage I would open up the BIOS and check the PC Health monitor and get the fan speeds at full and quiet and take the average. Then I'd start looking for fans that spin at about that speed.

If you find some 70mm^2 x 25mm thick fans they will most likely have higher flow rates and lower noise than similar 15mm thick fans. However, you may need new screws to hold it onto the heatsink.

I don't really think a nicer case fan can help you here. The processor heatsink is designed to exchange heat between the processor and the air in the case. If that process is inefficient it really doesn't matter how much air you cycle through the case.

-drasnor :fold:

milo001

13 Apr 2006, 03:26pm

I wonder if a much larger fan could be placed on top of both heatsinks replacing the two smaller ones. This could reduce the noise, but I guess the problem would be that each heatsink is now only getting air from a smaller sector of the fan diameter.

I design servers for a large computer company, and becasue of redundancy requirements, we are unable to use fans mounted to the heatsinks, so we cool them by moving a lot of air through the chassis. This requires that the heatsinks have a much larger surface area, which would not work with this mother board as the available area is already being used. Also the fan placement would have to be optimized for this, and in most consumer chassis, you do not get that choise.

I would say the best solution would be same or similar to Drasnor's or if you like to mess around with liquid cooling, this would make it even quieter.

drasnor

13 Apr 2006, 03:36pm

It's a different story with rack chassis than for desktop cases. You can get away with it in rack chassis because the chassis is designed to duct air blowing through the front across large passive heatsinks and straight out the back. They aren't really passive, just part of a very elegant integrated cooling solution. Also, rack chassis that do this tend to be fairly loud, especially the small ones (1U).

Fan adapters exist but they don't work well airflow-wise. Most axial fans produce low static pressure and are unable to move their full capacity through the couplers (the air stagnates instead of accelerating). The exception is squirrel cage blowers or some other kind of centrifugal fan but most blowers are fairly loud. Some exist that may meet your requirements however you may run into trouble due to their height.

-drasnor :fold:

milo001

13 Apr 2006, 05:05pm

Drasnor,

You are right. The whole chassis is designed around the cooling requirements and there are all kinds of air baffles and stuff to channel the air through the critical components. I was trying to say that with an off-the-shelf chassis, doing all this stuff would be inpractical. And even after doing all this, servers are not exactly what I would call quiet.

I will one of these days try the Freezer 4 as blueox or nicklogan showed earlier on this thread. I think that should quiet things a bit.

RTLdan

16 Apr 2006, 08:25am

This is all really fascinating to me. Again, I am newbie so please bear with the basic questions.

Right now my fans (120mm case fan, stock msi heatsinkfan) are both running at full speed. Using CoreCenterPro (the temp program that comes with the board) I can see that my temperatures stop rising at around 31 deg. celsius for system, and about 32 deg. celsius for the CPU. The only way I keep it that low is by taking the filter off of the case fan. But that makes it really loud! When it's all closed up, it actually isnt' terrible.

From what I've read, I guess that my computer is underestimating the real temperature. So, what do you recommend as a safe temperature to peak at?

I'm sorry if what I'm saying doesn't make much sense.

What I think I mean is, maybe I can lower the speed of my fans if the computer is still cool enough...what is cool enough using CoreCenterPro's temp guage?

Thank you all so much!!
-Daniel

drasnor

16 Apr 2006, 02:49pm

Check in your BIOS under PC Health for something along the lines of Smart CPU fan control and see if it's enabled. If it is, you have a cooling problem. If not, enable it and see if you can run that way without the motherboard flipping the fans into high speed.

32 C is a great CPU temperature. My board overestimated my processor temperatures but I've never heard of a board underestimating them. My Opterons would run at an indicated temperature of ~45 C - 48 C but now run much cooler on my new motherboard which accepts Thermalright XP-120's though I don't have temps on it just yet since finding hardware monitoring software for Linux hasn't been a priority for me. Anything under 50 C is acceptable for me, anything under 40 C is desirable. Anything over 50 C was unacceptable and anything over 60 C was danger.

Keep in mind I run first generation Opterons (.13 micron Sledgehammers).

-drasnor :fold:

3dfreelancer

2 May 2006, 08:05pm

.... on my new motherboard which accepts Thermalright XP-120's ....

Hi Drasnor

Thank you for your help - its almost as if MSI had support :wink:

You say your new board accepts the Thermalrights - which board is that if I may ask?

I did the adaptation of the 462 heatsink and used quiet fans but run them at full speed - but it is still too noisy. Now I will either buy a new board, I will try watercooling or I will try yet another cooling solution.

I have no idea if my board overestimates temp so I dont think I like experimenting with resticting power to the fans (corecenter says 46 and 42 degrees celcius for the cpus and 35 degrees for syst.)

In total expenses I am not far from the same amount a Tyan board would have cost me first place - that should teach me...

Kind regards

3dfreelancer

drasnor

2 May 2006, 08:12pm

I use a Supermicro H8DCE purchased from Monarch Computer. It's officially an OEM board so Supermicro isn't obligated to provide tech support but I haven't had any trouble going through Monarch when my first one was DOA. My only gripe is that it's E-ATX and I had to buy a new, larger case to hold it.

-drasnor :fold:

syzygylock

14 Aug 2006, 05:43pm

Hi everyone,

I know this is old, but I need help. I recently got the dual setup and prepare to build a home use server. I got the motherboard off of ebay and discovered the heat sink retention clips are not included. I have the stock hsf, but now in need of the heat sink retention real bad. I've just finished reading all the posts in this thread and it looks like you guys mod the brackets to mount better heat sinks. For me on the other hand, I don't need better hsf because the server will be somewhere where no-one cares and I don't want to spend a lot of money to do a mod. Does anyone knows where I can get the retention clips? Or if you mod yours and still have the old ones, can I buy it off of you?

Thanks,

SyzygyLock

Edit: spellings