Intel upgrade questions for you P4 users? Will order soon.

[muddocktor]

OK, it's been 2 years since I seriously dabbled with any Intel silicon but I just got a $500 Christmas bonus from the company I work for and it's burning a hole in my pocket. I've been thinking about building a 800 fsb P4 system for a while and this should be enough to get me going. This is what I've picked out so far; give me some feedback on my choices please.:)

mobo - Abit IC7G Max2 - $138.99
proc - P4 2.4/800 retail - $166.00
memory - Corsair XMS4000LL 2 sticks @ $60 ea - $120
heatsink - Thermalright SLK800U - already have gotten for Christmas:D
Fan - Vantec Tornado - $9.99
Fan controler - Vantec Nexus NXP205 - $16.99

Shipping - $9.00

Total - $460.97

All prices from Newegg.

What do you all think of this setup? This will have an AIW9800Pro and a 80 gig WD JB drive, which I already have.

[GHoosdum]

Sounds good... but I didn't think the 2.4 had HT, and I didn't think that it was worth getting a P4 over an AMD unless it was 2.8GHz and up and had HT...?

[Thrax]

For the life of me, I can't find an IC7G Max2. Not even on Abit's site.

Are you sure you don't mean Abit IC7G, or IC7-MAX3? Did you maybe squash board names together by mistake? As far as motherboards are concerned, the IC7G and the MAX3 are the best available for Intel.

CPU is good.
Memory is VERY good.
Heatsink is fine.
Fan: Good, but the Thermaltake SmartFan II is almost as good, but allows you to control the speed by potentiometer. It would negate the fanbus if you're only getting it for the vantec.

[NoFuture]

I think the 2.6C is the same price as the 2.4C so you should get this one unless you found a kickass stepping for OC.

[muddocktor]

This is a link to that board's spec page, Thrax. (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?DEPA=&sumit=Go&description=13%2D127%2D152&searchdepa=0) I believe it's the earlier version of the Max boards and Newegg must be trying to clear out inventory of them, for it to be priced that low. I believe the Max2 doesn't have the updated southbridge with the integrated sata support like the Max3 does. All it has is the SI sata chip.

I thought about going with the TT fan with it and I have a couple of them and know how well they perform, but I do like the focusing vanes used on the Tornado, as well as the high performance Delta fans. I think that they give a little better flow rate and static air pressure than a regular type fan like the TT. Since it will still fit in the budget going with the Tornado and the Nexus, I figured I'd go that route.

Also, the 2.6/800 is only $172.00, which is $6.00 more than the 2.4/800. Do you think that I should go with that instead in order to stand a better chance of running the memory at sync with the fsb?

GHoosdum, all the 800 fsb P4's have HT enabled on them, not just the high end ones like the 533 fsb parts. I wouldn't even consider a non-HT(for whatever dubious help HT gives ;) ) P4 to play with.

[Thrax]

I'd get the 2.6 for $6 more.

[Al_Capown]

Thrax had this to say
[B]For the life of me, I can't find an IC7G Max2. Not even on Abit's site.

Are you sure you don't mean Abit IC7G, or IC7-MAX3? Did you maybe squash board names together by mistake? As far as motherboards are concerned, the IC7G and the MAX3 are the best available for Intel.


Abit IC7-G Max II Advance (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1055388014946&skuId=5625399&type=product&productCategoryId=cat01071)

My complaints with your system are very minimal, but complaints still.

Perhaps it might be worth it to pay $6 more for a processor typically capable of .2 GHz more when overclocked (2.4C=~3.0, 2.6C=~3.2-3.3) or perhaps $29 more for something that will typically do .5GHz more when overclocked (2.8C=~3.4-3.5).

Secondly, do you think that running pc3200LL with a 5:4 divisor and 5-2-2-2 timings would yield better performance than 1:1 @ 250 8-4-4-3? That way you could save a few bucks.

Just my thoughts, the system you spec'd would be just fine probably.

[DogSoldier]

Mudd, looks good (Just get your mobo designations correct). Should be a very OCeable system.

Ghoosdum, the 2.4Cs have HT, the 2.4Bs don't. I have my 2.4C OCd to 3.18 263FSB with the RAM running 1:1. A lot of it has to do with luck, but the 2.4Cs are pretty lucky.

[Geeky1]

Stop the presses! Hell has officially frozen.

Has anyone else noticed this?

muddocktor had this to say:
I've been thinking about building a 800 fsb P4 system

Followed by:

Thrax had this to say:
CPU is good.

:wtf: :wow: :wow: :wow:

Who are you, and what have you done with Thrax?

:D ;D

In all seriousness, the setup looks fine. Although I've heard that Kingston's HyperX is better for the P4 than Corsair's stuff is...

[GHoosdum]

I noticed that too. I didn't want to say anything for fear of also being converted by whatever got Thrax...

[Thrax]

CPU is good for <b>him</b> within the confines of his decision. I think it's an overpriced lump of ****..... And I always will.

[TheLostSwede]

Muddocktor,

Is there any chance to get Twinmos with winbond there? The CH5 does 230+ 1:1 at 5,3,2,2 most of the time. Wouldn't that be perfect on a 2.4C? If the cpu can do more, just relax the timings and give it more fsb. That way, you are covered if you know what i mean. Or get the Kingston 3500 6,3,2,2. Both me and Lasse have tested them for a while. One of my sticks where bad, but Lasses pair does splendid. Last i heard, they passed Goldmemory at 242 and 6,2,2,2 timings in dual.

[muddocktor]

Thrax had this to say
CPU is good for &lt;b&gt;him&lt;/b&gt; within the confines of his decision. I think it's an overpriced lump of ****..... And I always will.

It might be an overpriced lump of ****, but I can afford to get it right now. I've never had a Pee4 to mess with since they came out, so I figured I'd try 1 out and see how it compares to my NF7/Barton rig.

I think I will go for the 2.6 instead of the 2.4. I can't see paying an extra $30 or so more for a 2.8 over the 2.6 though.

Al, I believe I'll stick with the XMS4000LL for $60 a stick. That's a hell of a good price, I think. Must be a special or something.

Mack, the HyperX is $63 a stick at newegg. It shows the same timings as the Corsair. Do you think it will perform better than the Corsair?

[Al_Capown]

I don't think CH5 is the way to go here, as I'm guessing muddocktor wants 250+ fsb @ 1:1.

But if mudd is willing to look at some ch5 you could go this route:
2x of this Buffalo 256MB Pc3200 $72 (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=20-150-563). These aren't guaranteed to be CH5 or winbond for that matter, however if you look in the reviews (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-150-563&depa=0&section=3) you'll see that many people have gotten ch5's non-the-less. I'm guessing that the odds of getting CH5 are the same as getting an 1800+ DLT3C JIUHB from newegg, which are pretty good odds.

Now about Kingston, through looking at newegg the pc4000 kingston is $83 and the pc3700 kingston is $63. By no means is that pc3700 memory sufficient for a P4 1:1. I have it in my 2.6 system and it doesn't even meet spec (233) 1:1, no matter what voltages I feed it.

I'm gonna go pull the heatspreaders from that memory and see what chips they use. Be right back.

[Thrax]

I would get the Corsair 4000.

[GHoosdum]

We know you would. :D

[Thrax]

Naturally. :tongue:

[muddocktor]

I tend to go Corsair myself. They make great memory and I have experience with their products, which I don't have with the Kingston.

Al, I think I'll stick with the Corsair; I know for sure what I'm getting with them and it still fits within my budget.

[croc_]

Thrax had this to say
CPU is good for &lt;b&gt;him&lt;/b&gt; within the confines of his decision. I think it's an overpriced lump of ****..... And I always will.

thats the Thrax we all know and ..... love.

[Thrax]

<font size=6 color=red face=trebuchet><3</font>

[muddocktor]

Well, I'm just about to push the button on the order. Thbis is what I'm going with:

The Abit board
2.6 Pee4/800
2 sticks of Corsair XMS4000LL
Vantec Tornado
Nexus fan controller

The total for all that comes out to $466.97, including shipping.

Thrax, I know I am sinning by going over to the dark side, but I just have to quell my curiosity about the Pee4 systems.:crazy: The price point on the FX is just too high right now and I'm not interested in a socket 754 setup either. Hopefully some time next year when the socket 939 boards are out, the price point on the FX will be somewhat lower so that I can mess with that.:)

[GHoosdum]

What does the "LL" stand for on the RAM? I know in automotive light bulbs, it stands for "Long Life" but I don't think this is the case here...

Good choices, mud... if Pee4 you must!

[Thrax]

Low Latency. The designation for their 2/2/2 modules.

LL = 2/2/2
C2 = Cas2
PRO = LED Packaging
TWINX = DCDDR Kit
PT = Platinum spreaders

[GHoosdum]

Then I'm assuming those 2 sticks are 256MB each... unless RAM prices really fell through the floor in the past 2 weeks.

[Al_Capown]

Yep they're 2x 256.

Ram prices blow right now.

Update on the $63 Kingston HyperX Pc3700. The memory chip reads
Samsung 328
K4H560838E - TCCC
BEEH77PA

Can Mackanz or anyone else help me and tell me what else these RAM chips are used in? Whether it be corsair 3700, mushkin3700, buffalo3700, or no name brand, and how they typically overclock?

[mmonnin]

Mudd: Its not the LL RAM like you think. The $60 PC4000 sticks are Model#: CMX256-4000PT.

[TheLostSwede]

There's no way there is any PC4000 2,2,2 ram out.

[keto]

AFAIK there's no such thing as PC4000 rated at CAS 2.0. Corsair has 4000 and 4000Pro, tho on their website both are 3-4-4-8.

2.6 is a good choice but Al is correct in saying *most often* a 2.8 will clock a little higher overall, plus the higher you go, the easier it is to stay at 1:1 mem:fsb. I'd be inclined to spend the extra $30 on the 2.8 personally.

I'm gritting my teeth over your mobo selection. If you want a great Abit board, go IS7. Yes, it's the 865 not 875 but it has the Abit equivalent of PAT that gives the extra system boost the 875 is famous for. The IS7-G has dual SATA RAID also, tho it doesn't sound like this is a primary consideration - just keep in mind that with the IC7Max2 the RAID is run thru an onboard chip and over the PCI bus whereas if you get a board with the ICH5R southbridge, the SATA RAID is independent of PCI.

[TheLostSwede]

Samsung are mostly Cas 3 chips. For low latency, ONLY Winbond BH5, BH6 or CH5 will do. The ones that guarantee BH5 chips are Mushkin Level 2 3500, OCZ Limited Edition 3500. ALL Twinmos with Winbond bought from summer and forwarding are CH5.

BH5 will do 5,2,2,2 at X fsb 1:1 and CH5 USUALLY does 5,3,2,2 at X fsb. Both of them just LOVES voltage. Running 3.5V 24/7 isn't any problems at all.

The Samsungs are used in most of the High Latency memory modules by Geil, OCZ, Mushkin, Kingston and Corsair but Infineons have been seen as well. The Samsungs are 3200 chips originally as far as i know.

[Thrax]

Their designation may have changed, however as of the PC3500 modules, LL = 2/2/2.

[Straight_Man]

Well, the first 2 instead of a 2.5, followed with a 2 instead of a 3, followed by a 2 instead of a 3, is very respectable low latency. Look at the speed recommends for PT and Pro, and you get a JEDEC test spec, and they say it is bus speed tuned and latency auto and relaxed latency. They designed your choice for a bus OC in speed, and say they get better performance with a very high bus speed and relaxed latency. I would try TWINX pair, as below:

http://www.corsairmemory.com/corsair/products/specs/twinx512-4000.pdf

Um, for dual channel either one module per channel of 256 size, or two twinx packs for .5 GIG per channel. If you populate just one channel, you will get a perfomance hit, and with matched pairs, one pair pack per channel would be best. So when and if you get a second pack, pair the original pack pair in same channel bank first.

Here's something to make you-all drool, though... :D

http://www.corsairmemory.com/corsair/products/specs/twinx1024-4400.pdf

highlight: DDR550, 575 MHz RAM bus(not RAMBUS memory, speed of RAM bus) speed capable.

Note, this is not a CMX, this is an XMS series pdf., twin-pack, matched and prestested as pair. You are paying for the matching, RAM modules on sticks can and do randomly vary, and matched can be worth it in long run if OCing. For normal use, no OC, CMX is fine, but you will run into limits with OCing with non-matched RAM. Both these lines are available as Black or Platinum heat spreaders, platinum looks cooler, think the black might be a tiny tib more heat dump capable.

Here is something to also think about-- mfr's do salvage RAM modules on sticks that do not pass highend line testing, and issue as more economical lines with slower stated speed specs at which sticks ARE stable, but the economicla lines are more likely to have RAM modules that are not perfectly speed synced and will be less stable than the higher end at same settings, typically the recommends are lower simply because one or modules are unstable at the rates stated for high-end. You can get lucky, with individual sticks, but the matched paris are more overall likely to give you best high-extreme-end OCing as far as RAM itself.

Ciliff's Notes: ALL lines from mfr X are NOT equal, for ANY chip mfr, and OEMs can be lemons for OCing much more often than high-end (highest end, then value, then OEM is descending average quality for OC).

John.

[TheLostSwede]

And i'm calling it a day after that. Jesus Christ on a raft.

[Thrax]

To summarize:

-2/2/2 is low latency.
-Memory's SPD is JEDEC-compliant.
-High FSB on P4s is favored to low latencies.
-Get dual channel.
-PC4400 is sweet.
-CMX is Corsair's value line. (<b>Ed Note:</b> It sucks.)
-Modules that didn't pass XMS speed-binning might get bumped to lesser sticks.
-Those sticks might be capable of far more than what they're rated for.
-Any manufacturer is capable of making good, bad, and ugly modules.

[csimon]

interesting read ...http://www.houseofhelp.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14798

12 x 200mhz = 2.4ghz. A 2.6 CPU has a multiplier of 13, 2.8 has 14 and so on.

[Straight_Man]

Even more simple Thrax, the ugly are the ones that did not pass even the bad test, most often. The good are all good modules usually, not perfectly always. You pay for QC(Quality Control Testing), more QC more payee. All the modules can come from same silicon wafer build.

Not only is FSB emphasized, but Latency is tuned for auto sync. Adjust only FSB for RAM and CPU, LET rest be auto, set by SPD, and you can go async more as far as RAM bus speed (RAM subbus portion of bus structure) on a P4 board with a good chipset than you can on most AMD boards.

Some Intel based OC hints: Easisest start point is to find a stable FSB OC, then tweak RAM bus speed and set BIOS for spread spectrum as much as will be stable. THEN, see if can sync RAM base speed more with same FSB, work for a stable running box. THEN write down settings and experiment, so you can reset things after wiping CMOS or in the case of Intel baords pulling jumper off and running it once into setup in RECOVERY mode is needed and configure mode does not work. Intel uses a tri-condition-state option, 3-PIN CMOS jumper, typically pin one to two jumpered is run\normal, pin 2-3 jumpered is Configure, and no jumper causes a complete CMOS table reload to defaults on poweron. Do not bother trying to configure after a RECOVERY in same session, simply shut down box completely, put jumper in CONFIG state, and start up and configure, when sure you have it right then shut down completely, and jumper to normal. FIRST thing I do is shut off the dang Intel splash screen, it blocks you seeing 80-95% of the POST messages.

John.

John-- who got a GOOD CMX Corsair stick in the Barton buy.

[Thrax]

John, when I say something, I understand the entire meaning behind it. I don't need it explained to me.


Spread spectrum decreases system performance.

[Al_Capown]

And to end my day, while taking off the heatspreaders I must have scratched the connector part of the ram and now my 256mb of pc3700 is dead and since warranty is voided if you remove the heatspreader I can't RMA it. I can just hear the Kingston reps saying "That'll teach him". Oh well, thank god it wasn't anything good... and my p4 system has been used very lightly lately. Only F@H no one has touched it or run any apps on it so really it shouldn't affect me. Just gives me all the more reason to get new memory for my P4 2.6C.

Time to make up an outline for my English final tommorow.

Annoyed,

Al

[keto]

Thrax had this to say
To summarize:

-2/2/2 is low latency.
-Memory's SPD is JEDEC-compliant.
-High FSB on P4s is favored to low latencies.
-Get dual channel.
-PC4400 is sweet.
-CMX is Corsair's value line. (&lt;b&gt;Ed Note:&lt;/b&gt; It sucks.)
-Modules that didn't pass XMS speed-binning might get bumped to lesser sticks.
-Those sticks might be capable of far more than what they're rated for.
-Any manufacturer is capable of making good, bad, and ugly modules.

Unfortunately, nobody has RAM that will run CAS2.0 1:1 at high FSB 230-235+ without voltage mods to motherboards. All the stuff that will run 250+ (which a 2.4 + 2.6 will/should easily be capable of) are CAS 2.5 or most often 3.0.

So the solution is generally to run 5:4 ratio so that 250 fsb = 200 memory speed, and so on. The benefit to this is that THEN you can run 2-2-2-5 (as I do) and absolutely yes, the P4 loves low latency memory timings. Plus, you can buy a little cheaper memory, PC3500 is lots and PC3200 usually sufficient if it will overclock *a little*. Sure, PC4400 is sweet if you got the bux but it's gonna be CAS3 at those speeds, so the actual gain is relatively small.

As for NON-XMS sticks being capable of more, I wouldn't count on it. CMX is (as I understand it) entirely different memory modules - it's cheaper for a reason.

If I understand what John is saying about sync/async correctly, I disagree. My P4 tweaking guide/P4C800-E Deluxe review is in MediaMan's hands and should be published shortly, all is explained therein.

[Thrax]

Yes. I know what timings can/cannot be used at what bus speeds.

Generally 2/2/2 tops out at 220MHz on even the nicest of DDR modules in production. Most all of the 250+ is 3/4/4 in timings, which for a Pentium 4 is not that bad.. If it were an Athlon, you'd be murdering system peformance.

Pentium4s also don't mind asynchronous busses, as it's quad-pumped architecture provides better support for it than the Athlon's crappy-narrow bus.

PC3200 (Good Corsair) will do around 225MHz at 2/2/2, and PC3500 will do around 230/235 at 2.5/3/3.

The actual gain for the Pentium4, even at 3/4/4, is significant at 250 FSB.

I was just summarizing John's post, I wasn't pointing out if it was right or wrong; points 7 and 8 are.. VERY wrong.

[Straight_Man]

Yes, this is for others too. Point was, not all "bad" labelled series need be bad, there are such things as overproduction of modules and sometimes you do get a better module set than you expect. But with cheaper it is the luck of the draw or pruchase, and rarer that it happens.

So, was stressing likelyhood, not theroy certainty, and you got the summary perfect, Thrax.

I was expanding to show scope and why and some how details for folks less um, suddenly grasping than you of concept sets, not lecturing, get it??? AND showing a pattern that is not based on theory, but based on market reality that has held for decades. Besides, outlines are nice and breif, but mask the why and how of underlying casues for patterns, which 90% of time are NOT pure standards based, in fact violation of standards is more common, in some ways, than perfect adherence. Cheaper is more likely to be more majorly violating of IEEE standards than more exspensive, because of the costs of intense QC. That was the underlying theme, the facts were exemplary (as in being illustative examples) and on-topic, but deeply knowing(groking for shorthand) the market involves knowing who has good QC as standard in production also. :D

---> THRAX: EXCUSE ME, but to my mind discussion should be beneficial to all thread readers and some enthusiasts do not know this stuff deep enough that checking it before buying is second nature, and it should be if you each and all want to OC and still do what YOU each want most to do productively. So if I seem to say things you know, confirm it, but touchy is out as this was not an attack it was a fillin of logic behind and reasons why. That is true for most of my posts.

EDIT: Reasons why include market reality, and market reality has held as a very real dragging force for the history of IT.

For Thrax in particular but not solely, you might look at the fairly new IEEE Computer Society, it is a relatively inexpensive way to get a foot in the door there. They have online classes on basic and more advanced topics, the advanced ones are basicly would-be hardware engineer content level, some few up to master's level content as they want college grads and knowledgeable (VERY) advanced high school age folks for future members and judge invites in part by judging contributions(intellectual) to the Computer Society.

John.