The SMx Project: Contracts, managers, and other stuff [Archive]

Lincoln

23 Dec 2003, 5:03pm

A couple things were announced in a haphazard way over the last week as people moved to get SM20 together, find pieces for SM21, and find a host for SM21. I just wanted to take a minute to explain some decisions the staff and committee made and put it in its own thread so we can talk about it easier in one place.

The Parts Manager

Right now, we have a very difficult time keeping track of who has committed what pieces, and even the pieces we actually "have". It's a book-keeping nightmare, with pieces floating about - spread over 5 times zones. No one really has the time to keep track of that much paperwork... it's just not logical to keep doing it the way we have been.

Since all parts will be handled by one person (Mr Kwitko) he can easily start threads asking for exactly what pieces we need. We can be 5 machines ahead in CPUs if we want, and then find mobos at a different pace. It's much more efficient than making a thread and saying "OK, we need everything for this computer right now".

This will also help eliminate a lot of staff headaches. Pieces taking a month to arrive at the host's home, things arriving DOA, and needing replacement parts are all things that we are ill-equipped to deal with right now. The host's life will be greatly simplified when he or she receives all the parts on the same day, rather than trickling in over weeks. It will also be nice that the system is tested so the host can get things going right away and not be drained by trying to find what cursed piece isn't working right. And, if something actually is DOA or needs replacing, he doesn't need to start threads, etc in search of a new one. Mr Kwitko's got your back! :)

Now, there is one negative that has been pointed out: double shipping if you donate parts and get chosen as a host. I'm quoting seversphere here: This expense is would be unavoidable; fortunately though, the extra costs incurred would usually be for smaller parts, and not for heavy computer cases. Shipping costs would be kept to a minimum through the efforts of the Parts manager and would also be offset by greater efficiencies: more SMX rigs built and offered to Team Short-Media hosts. /quote

Once this system is going smoothly, we should be able to generate rigs at a quicker pace than previously since the system will be streamlined.

A discussion about a "parts manager" started amongst the staff in October. Since then, we have been kicking it around and getting it ready for primetime. There will definitely be an adjustment period as we make the change to this system, but I think it will definitely be worthwhile!

==================================

Contracts and legalities

Well, let's face it. We have a few errant boxen :( Every box that stops folding is a whole lot of time and effort being wasted. Right now, I'm sad to say, we have little legal recourse to get the boxes back. I assure you, we will make every effort to have them returned and reassigned to better hosts... but if they're gone... :(

The contract proposed is going to be quite simple: it will establish ownership of the computer and the responsibility of the host to return the machine if the team decides to recall it (for any reason). There will be no early termination fees, hidden charges, or selling of souls ;) We just need a piece of paper that says "Hey, we can take this thousand dollars of equipment back if you're not living up to the bargain... and you're in it deep if you run off with it."

While we don't think we've actually had any boxes run off yet, it will be harder to keep any other safeguards against that as the team continues to grow. We think this is the best all-around solution to a potentially crippling problem.

===================================

I hope this has explained some new stuff a little bit better so you understand why the staff went and made these changes while you weren't looking ;) We've been carefully thinking about it for several months, and hope that you'll think they are good ideas too once you think them over and see what they are trying to accomplish.

Thanks everyone! :D Keep the SMx project kicking!! :fold:

Straight_Man

23 Dec 2003, 5:13pm

I like this idea, actually. Having a simple contract that simply says the machine is SMX Team project property and is held in trust by host and not in any way an ownership transfer would work, as I am sure the Prime knows at least one someone who knows basic contract law if not all the complexities of several types of contract law-- suspect the latter, very strongly so. :D

Good idea, staff! :respect: :D

John.

DogSoldier

23 Dec 2003, 5:54pm

I like it! Very efficient. The only drawback is the chance of double-shipping, but such a small thing, overall, the changes more than make up for this. We'll have a leaner, meaner, SMx distribution system.

Now, all I need is to rewire my apartment to become an eligible host....

BuiesCreek847

23 Dec 2003, 9:23pm

Over in The Pond, we've started having all hosts post an inventory of their rig on a quarterly basis. If anything, it'll help keep track of the rigs as parts die, get swapped out, as well as who owns what. :buck:

TheSmJ

23 Dec 2003, 10:22pm

Sounds fine to me.

Will the current hosts need to sign something? If so, one could e-mail me the forum, and I could fax it back for faster processing/getting it out of my way.

GHoosdum

23 Dec 2003, 10:36pm

Tell ya what - having a parts manager is also a really good idea for finding the best matches on parts. For instance, any donated TBred-B's or Bartons can be matched with donated nForce2 mobos, etc. Also, stock processors of higher speeds can be matched to non-OC'able mobos for the best bang for the buck in the team's folding.

I think that contracts could also prevent any potential future catastrophes - such as an SMx rig being used for SETI@home or something...

TheSmJ brings up a good point - it would probably be a good idea to have current hosts sign something also, to prevent any other boxen from running off and/or being used to play HL2...

GnomeWizardd

23 Dec 2003, 10:36pm

yea this is partially to blame from me. I am sorry. I am just in the " Foldin Spirit " i guess you could call it! We gotta fend off those frogs!

GHoosdum

23 Dec 2003, 10:38pm

Cute, Gnome.

No offense there, BC... ;)

Dexter

23 Dec 2003, 10:45pm

Just a thought, but what good is a lgeal contract going to do you? Unless the SMx committee is prepared to go to the necessary legal expense of taking someone to small claims court to force return of the unit, it's just a piece of paper.

I have a bit of experience with small claims, and it's not as cut and dried as it looks. (We won our case...after a lot of time and money spent on it.) You usually have to file papers in the jurisdiction where the person resides to have any effective means of recourse against them. Being that this is a long distance transaction in most cases, you could claim jurisdiction in whatever locale the SMx signator signs the faxed-back contract. This would mean you could go to court in your local courthouse, but would have to send registered letters of claim and summons to the defendant. If the defendant fails to show, you need to then show that the address information you have for him is correct and vaild, in order to get a judgement in absentia (if they signed the Registered letter, this is easy...if someone else signed it, then you are out of luck.) If you do get a judgement against the person, you then need to engage a collection agency in their locale to enforce the judgement. That usually requires a deposit to the collection agency, on top of your court costs. If you cannot get the defendent anywhere, you are on the hook for all these costs.

Oh, and if the SMx host is under 18, they cannot be held to the contract, so you need to make sure their parents sign it, or stop using under-18 year olds as hosts.

If the SMx committee wants to start requiring legally binding contracts, then you better start setting aside a legal fund to back them up. The only recourse to a broken contract is court, and court costs money. If you win, you can get it back, if you don't, you rolled the dice and lost. But if you don't want to go to the expense and hassle (missed work time, postage, etc) then your contract is pointless, and it still comes down to individual honour. If they cannot meet the commitments to host a rig, an honourable person would give the computer back without the contract. A liar and a thief may not, and the court cannot always force them too that easily, or even at all.

Dexter...

tefleming

23 Dec 2003, 10:57pm

Dexter had this to say
Just a thought, but what good is a lgeal contract going to do you? Unless the SMx committee is prepared to go to the necessary legal expense of taking someone to small claims court to force return of the unit, it's just a piece of paper.

I have a bit of experience with small claims, and it's not as cut and dried as it looks. (We won our case...after a lot of time and money spent on it.) You usually have to file papers in the jurisdiction where the person resides to have any effective means of recourse against them. Being that this is a long distance transaction in most cases, you could claim jurisdiction in whatever locale the SMx signator signs the faxed-back contract. This would mean you could go to court in your local courthouse, but would have to send registered letters of claim and summons to the defendant. If the defendant fails to show, you need to then show that the address information you have for him is correct and vaild, in order to get a judgement in absentia (if they signed the Registered letter, this is easy...if someone else signed it, then you are out of luck.) If you do get a judgement against the person, you then need to engage a collection agency in their locale to enforce the judgement. That usually requires a deposit to the collection agency, on top of your court costs. If you cannot get the defendent anywhere, you are on the hook for all these costs.

Oh, and if the SMx host is under 18, they cannot be held to the contract, so you need to make sure their parents sign it, or stop using under-18 year olds as hosts.

If the SMx committee wants to start requiring legally binding contracts, then you better start setting aside a legal fund to back them up. The only recourse to a broken contract is court, and court costs money. If you win, you can get it back, if you don't, you rolled the dice and lost. But if you don't want to go to the expense and hassle (missed work time, postage, etc) then your contract is pointless, and it still comes down to individual honour. If they cannot meet the commitments to host a rig, an honourable person would give the computer back without the contract. A liar and a thief may not, and the court cannot always force them too that easily, or even at all.

Dexter...

Dex- you raise several good points. the contract **can** stipulate that any disputes shall be filed in ___ (whatever the small claims court for the metro detroit area is.) If they sign it, then they agree to be bound by the jurisdiction of the aforementioned court.

Legal Fund? Not a terrible idea, but a better idea would be get a lawyer involved now. Any third year law student could draw up teh contract we need, in legally binding language--the key to winning any contract dispute. There has to be a lawyer on some team who would draw up the contract for a minimal (read: zero) fee. If this ever wound up in small claims, then lawyers aren't allowed.

Other than court? S-M could also pursue the deviant with their ISP alleging that the account was used to commit fraud. We could require a deposit of some sort (would need a little brainstorming to come up with somethign that's doable) (I'm trying to point out that there are many other options short of going to court.)

TheSmJ

23 Dec 2003, 11:00pm

Dexter brings up another good point. The machines donated are only worth ~$100 or so, and going after such a person would become both an expensive and cumbersome effort, especially when the machines we're talking about here are made from just the sort of components one might expect to donate (IE: sub-par).

Don�t get me wrong, some of these machines (SM18 included) have the capability to become a semi-useful gaming machine, but (in my case anyhow) I would have to spend at least $200 on a new video card, and another $150 on DDR RAM, and I would still be stuck with a sub-par mobo (in terms of performance) etc. Anyone with half a brain might as well spend the extra $100-$150 on making themselves a completely legit, and faster machine.

In light of this, I feel that while a contract may help "seal the deal", we should really rely on confirmed addresses (of the place of residence sort) and phone numbers. I cannot see why it would be worth it to anyone to go into the witness protection program just to keep a SMX machine.

GHoosdum

23 Dec 2003, 11:01pm

MoXon had this to say
(I'm trying to point out that there are many other options short of going to court.)

Such as electrocution.

GnomeWizardd

23 Dec 2003, 11:10pm

I dont mean to sound mean by saying this but maybe dedication to the site/team HAS to be a requirement maybe atleast 6 months?

Thrax

23 Dec 2003, 11:12pm

I would tend to agree with that statement, on the same principles as the President's age and U.S. citizenship.

It's just safer to be sure of the dedication.

TheSmJ

23 Dec 2003, 11:13pm

We could require a deposit of some sort

Err, no. If I was 'renting' the machine for my own benifit, that might work. In reality, the host is agreeing to give his or her time in keeping/maintaining/loving the machine FOR the team.

GnomeWizardd

23 Dec 2003, 11:13pm

OMG OMG OMG /me faints! Thrax agrees with me!

tefleming

23 Dec 2003, 11:23pm

TheSmJ had this to say
We could require a deposit of some sort

Err, no. If I was 'renting' the machine for my own benifit, that might work. In reality, the host is agreeing to give his or her time in keeping/maintaining/loving the machine FOR the team.

This is true, but I mean something along the lines of a promisory note (that could be written into the contract), nothing of value, until its exercised.

Dexter

23 Dec 2003, 11:23pm

MoXon had this to say
If this ever wound up in small claims, then lawyers aren't allowed.

Maybe in your jurisdiction, but they are in mine. They are just usually not worth the expense.

MoXon had this to say
Other than court? S-M could also pursue the deviant with their ISP alleging that the account was used to commit fraud.

But it wasn't. ISP's don't care if you steal a computer then use it on their service. Only if you are stealing credit card numbers with it.

Dexter...

Thrax

23 Dec 2003, 11:25pm

GnomeWizardd had this to say
OMG OMG OMG /me faints! Thrax agrees with me!

It's not that big a deal. Relax. :wtf:

Dexter

23 Dec 2003, 11:26pm

TheSmJ had this to say

In light of this, I feel that while a contract may help "seal the deal", we should really rely on confirmed addresses (of the place of residence sort) and phone numbers.

Get them to fax or e-mail scans of their drivers' licence, birth cert, etc. Have under-18's get their parents to sign a statement of understanding.

Dexter...

GnomeWizardd

23 Dec 2003, 11:32pm

/me was just pulling you chain thrax

primesuspect

23 Dec 2003, 11:44pm

Smj: I disagree with the value you placed on the machines.

Look, the situation, in plain english is thus:

We have several thousand dollars worth of parts and money being sent all over the world, in a relatively haphazard fashion, with no ownership or accountability other than a vaguely worded set of "rules" and the good old honor system. I mean, it has served us well for the most part, but the plain fact is that there is more than one machine that is just plain stolen. They don't turn in WUs anymore, the hosts have been contacted multiple times, and there is just no recourse. Now, I've donated parts, time, and money to the team and so that makes me personally affected by these thefts. Anybody else who has donated parts, money, and time to the team has also been stolen from. Therefore, we need a legally binding method that we can fall back on in case a future machine gets stolen. "That will never happen" you may think, but the simple truth is that it has already happened. While I agree, Dexter, that small claims is a gigantic pain in the ass, at least we have threat of legal action to fall back on, and in most cases that does work.

I personally have the willpower to see any future legal action through, as I'm sure some people can attest to. Therefore, it all comes down to who is willing to fight longer. If we are in the right (We give you a machine in exchange for this promise, and you break the promise and don't return the machine) then we will win, because I DO have the means and the will to see the thing through to the end.

If there's one thing I hate, it's being stolen from ..... :hrm:

profdlp

23 Dec 2003, 11:47pm

GnomeWizardd had this to say
I dont mean to sound mean by saying this but maybe dedication to the site/team HAS to be a requirement maybe atleast 6 months?

Thrax had this to say
I would tend to agree with that statement, on the same principles as the President's age and U.S. citizenship.

It's just safer to be sure of the dedication.
I originally had mixed feelings on this. We have some newer members who seem to be real go-getters, and it seems a shame to leave them out.

At the same time, someone who says "ahh, screw it" and leaves, just because they had to wait a few months, is probably not someone we want to trust a S-M rig with anyway.

As far as the legal matters, I think if we ever did find our selves in that position here is what I see as most likely:

1) The mere threat of legal action will probably be enough to do the trick in all but the most hard-core cases.

2) For the hard-core cases, I say go after the first one with all our might. The next guy considering it might see the writing on the wall and pull a Libya.

The alternatives are to either abandon the project as a team effort, and leave it to individuals to form their own combined efforts, or cross our fingers and be willing to accept a certain percentage of scofflaws as the price of doing business.

Frankly, as the project grows, that percentage of ne'er-do-wells will lead to an increasing number of dead-end machines. Envision a future scenario where we have fifty rigs in operation and a quick check of the stats shows that seven of them are turning in few - or zero - points. Are you going to feel comfortable knowing that the parts you donated might end up as someone's linux DHCP server? The fact that these are not generally good gaming rigs doesn't mean they're worthless. The last few SMx comps to go out are better than my main rig.

The bottom line is that any charity depends on its reputation for future contributions. Be viewed as wasteful and disorganized and you are doomed. Maintain a reputation for being businesslike and effective and people will be much more willing to donate.

mmonnin

23 Dec 2003, 11:53pm

If its legal and you were a host, would you break the contract?? If we have to, the owners will take force of law to get it back. Of course we dont want to have to use it but we lose machines for weeks at a time and we are fed up with it.

GHoosdum

24 Dec 2003, 12:03am

mmonnin had this to say
If its legal and you were a host, would you break the contract?? If we have to, the owners will take force of law to get it back. Of course we dont want to have to use it but we lose machines for weeks at a time and we are fed up with it.

Marc, are you saying that if an SMx machine is not stolen but doesn't turn in production for a few weeks, that the host will be sued?

profdlp

24 Dec 2003, 12:22am

GHoosdum had this to say
Marc, are you saying that if an SMx machine is not stolen but doesn't turn in production for a few weeks, that the host will be sued?
I know this question wasn't addressed to me, but allow me to give my opinion.

Sued? Not necessarily right off the bat. Stuff happens. If someone has a reasonable excuse, then of course we wouldn't go after them. It is the people who stops Folding with no explanation, and who refuse to be contacted, who will be targeted. Remember, "sued" in this context merely means that if the host doesn't live up to their agreement we will demand the rig be returned so we can find someone else who will.

Take the team's computer, break your agreement, ignore polite requests to return the machine, and generally thumb your nose at the team, and hell yeah, we'll do what we need to do to get it back.

Let me stress again, the vast majority of hosts are performing an admirable job. No one is out to make their life more complicated. Most hosts will sign a piece of paper, then never again need think of it.

primesuspect

24 Dec 2003, 12:24am

I agree 100% with prof:

Sued is the wrong word. If somebody gives us the finger and runs off with our machine, we want it back, that's all.

GHoosdum

24 Dec 2003, 12:36am

I understand the intent, but Marc's comment made it seem like if, for example, SM21 is the #1 production SMx machine for 18 weeks, then drops production for 2 weeks, the team's gonna ask for it back, because as he said, "we lose machines for weeks at a time and we are fed up with it."

primesuspect

24 Dec 2003, 12:40am

It's not very complicated:

If a machine doesn't turn in a WU for, say, three weeks, people notice. So we contact the host and say "Hey dude, what's up? When you signed the contract, you said that you would do your best to keep it running."

And then the host, in 99% of cases, would say "oh, sorry dude, I was out of town for a week and then it just slipped my mind" and we say "Well, cool, don't let it happen again, cause there are other hosts who would keep it running" and everyone goes on their merry way.

Now, if we try to contact the same host and say "Hey, what's up with sm99?" and they ignore ALL attempts to contact them for a month, and then you call them and they ignore your calls, and then you say "okay look, we need that machine back" and they STILL ignore you, that's the problem we're trying to eliminate. We're all reasonable people.

We want to avoid:

Machines being stolen, permanently
Machines being used for boosting personal folding stats instead of stats for that particular machine
Machines being neglected

It's pretty simple. It doesn't need to be as complicated as you seem to make it sound.

profdlp

24 Dec 2003, 12:47am

No. :)

The criteria will be overall performance and consistency, coupled with good communication. If someone is doing a decent job, then announces that the machine will be off-line for two weeks while they go on vacation, we'll just wish them a good time. We all have lives, too.

This whole thing has become necessary because of a few people who have grossly flaunted the agreement they made, and done so over a long period of time. Someone who locks the comp in their dorm closet while they go home for Christmas isn't going to get any grief.

Communication is a big part of it. When circumstances arise, just let people know what's going on. It's akin to missing a day of work. You'd at least call your office to let them know why you didn't show up. The intent is to "fire" the people with chronic unexplained absences (or outright desertion), not hassle the poor guy who came down with the flu.

GHoosdum

24 Dec 2003, 12:50am

That's what I thought from the start, but like I said, the wording in Marc's post made it seem like it was the weekly production changes per SMx machine that were making trouble, rather than the stolen boxen, while everyone else seemed to point to the stolen SMx rigs as the trouble. It just seemed like a mixed message from the folding team leaders...

mmonnin

24 Dec 2003, 12:58am

Well there have been times where a machine hasnt turned in WUs for weeks and we have gotten no reply from the host. I got so fed up with that I was ready to take a road trip to the person's house and knock on their door, spend the night in my car across the street and wait if I had to. Well with this nice piece of paper that the host and his legal guardian would have to sign they would have to give it to me. The parent would know about such a thing (their kid being a host) and thus would not think I was some crazy person from the street.

We spend a lot of time and effort to get these machines going and when they are not producing we get quite annoyed.

GHoosdum

24 Dec 2003, 1:01am

Plenty of parents are unlikely to sign such a contract on their kids' behalf - it just means that the rigs will go to more responsible individuals who are less likely to steal an outdated PC. It also means you're less likely to have to sleep in your car at the host's house!

mmonnin

24 Dec 2003, 1:14am

If they wont sign it on their behalf then they wont get it. We have been talking about this for awhile and the last machine got sent out w/o a signature. Things are still being worked out as to who is actually going to OWN the machines and some other legal issues.

I will do what it takes.:)

GHoosdum

24 Dec 2003, 1:17am

Are we going to try to get signatures from current hosts like TheSmJ suggested? I think it's a good idea.

kanezfan

24 Dec 2003, 1:21am

why don't you guys just send em all to sarcnet HQ and take up a a fund to help pay for the added electricity? that way you know where the machines are and if they don't send in WUs you can kick prime's @ss when you meet him at the LAN.

Enverex

24 Dec 2003, 1:22am

GnomeWizardd had this to say
I dont mean to sound mean by saying this but maybe dedication to the site/team HAS to be a requirement maybe atleast 6 months?

I would say 8 months, plus being a respected member of the community AND that they have been folding for a long time and have shown dedication to it.

GHoosdum

24 Dec 2003, 1:25am

I'm sure that the selection committee takes all those factors into account in the decision-making process.

mmonnin

24 Dec 2003, 1:42am

We do take all those qualities into factor when choosing a host.

Current hosts will be signing a contract as well as new hosts.

Kanez: That would defeat the point of the SMx project pretty much and I dont think we would be able to keep paying for electricity for 20 machines currently. Thats a huge burden on Brian to keep 20 potentially volital machines up and running. Part of the hosts doantion is paying for electricity which they should take into consideration when applying.

What I would like to do but I know its not really feasible is to allow me to connect to the SMx machine through EM3. When one is down I will know instantly and can contact the host and crack the whip.;) Its something every host should have on their computer. I do and its so easy to set up.

GHoosdum

24 Dec 2003, 1:44am

EM3 allows you to remotely check up on the Folding status? How?

Enverex

24 Dec 2003, 1:52am

GHoosdum had this to say
EM3 allows you to remotely check up on the Folding status? How?

You need networked file access to the folder. So it would work on a LAN, don't think it can work any other way though.

mmonnin

24 Dec 2003, 1:56am

I can do it across the network in my apt so I assume if you can VPN across the internet in the same manner to a shared folder I would think EM3 could see it as well since EM3 can see network places.

Lincoln

24 Dec 2003, 1:59am

I go play Axis and Allies for a couple hours and my little post became a novel... :p

The committee does look at length of time on the site seriously when making a decision. We just don't say "X number of months" because then it's like "oh, this person is 5 days shy of the last month..." and it's just a bunch of technicalities and tallies we don't need to deal with. We know about how long they've been around.

Every issue that's been mentioned about the contract so far has been previously discussed by the staff and we still feel it is best to move forward with it. Remember - if they choose to challenge, that's more they gotta pay when they get shot down in court (not that I'd ever expect it to come to that).

We are also collecting addresses and phone numbers, btw (have been for a while now).

GnomeWizardd

24 Dec 2003, 4:10am

I truthfully think that IF someone runs off with the SMX machine and gives you the fingure we should hunt them down and shove Pineapples up thier butt! ( gotta love South Park! )

Straight_Man

24 Dec 2003, 4:29am

AS far as selection. Time alone, and participation, should count. But helping by giving parts should also be weighed, as parts given toward a box were paid for somehow. It looks like many of the parts are coming in free to team, this is good.

BTW, I will be giving parts, but cannot afford electricity or would have three personal ID boxes folding now. I have a router, know boxes and networking, could sign a contract as an adult, but simply due to medical bills for vision fixes and costs of starting a business am out of extra marginal cost funds like running another 350W box 24\7 and a UPS for same and cost for removing heat from same 7-8 months of the year. Otherwise, would throw my hat in ring also. I do have two more ports open on my firewalled router, but electricity is hyper-expensive in Florida all year round and climbing upward year by year. I run about 8 amps real draw of gear 24\6.9 now, on average-- and that does not include AC costs.

Prime, what legal costs would be involved in establishing a trust run by two or more adults(formal trusttees) and several minors under their supervision (delegated duties) doing core leadership with the trustees' guidance??? I would trust you as one, Shorty or MediaMan as one also.

Would be willing to serve down the line myself if wanted, but that is up to you who are in reality making all this possible with a considerable investment (site, site assets, moderating things, defining needed rules, maintaining server and DB, upgrading site software, paying for hosting, etc.-- with no HQ, no team of this caliber could survive). One reason, look at a trust or non-profit corp set up with trust mgmnt to get tax refund\charity benefits for parts givers, and you would get more parts that way that are better in quality. I know I could afford to give more that way.

I make this public to see what the potential givers and potential and current hosts think, most of the current hosts are involved in other very valuable ways here also.

John.

Dexter

24 Dec 2003, 6:45am

mmonnin had this to say
What I would like to do but I know its not really feasible is to allow me to connect to the SMx machine through EM3. When one is down I will know instantly and can contact the host and crack the whip.;) Its something every host should have on their computer. I do and its so easy to set up.

Realistically, are you going to be checking those hosts every hour of every day? No. You are going to check them a couple of times a month, maybe a couple per week for new hosts. So why not just bookmark the detailed Stats page for each SMx host, and check them instead? Gives you a better idea of weekly WU production anyways. That way, you don't have to walk everyone through setting up their router for EM3 remote access, and the hosts do not have to open a port on their LAN that can potentially expose them to some serious problems.

Dexter...

primesuspect

24 Dec 2003, 7:01am

Kanez:

While I would happily host as many SMx machines as I possibly could ( i don't pay for electricity ), it comes down to a matter of physical space restraints (unless people want to send me 1U rackmount cases).

But if we start casing these things in 1U rackmounts, I'm your man. I can host probably 50-100 1U boxes if I had to :) And hell, you can put duallys in a 1U now, for double the folding power :)

Let's wait until I move out of detroit first. No point in sending me parts just for the crackheads to take and turn into rocks ;D

BuiesCreek847

24 Dec 2003, 7:20am

I imagine part of a prospective hosts background check would include Heatware.

One could always slam said Heat if things went really bad. Perhaps as an attention getting tool. Seems one might be able to edit it should it have only been a "Mis-understanding" :wtf:

. . . . . . . . . . . http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/otn/other/popworm.gif

GHoosdum

24 Dec 2003, 5:46pm

Ooh! Good idea BC!

Dexter

24 Dec 2003, 8:36pm

BuiesCreek847 had this to say
I imagine part of a prospective hosts background check would include Heatware.

One could always slam said Heat if things went really bad. Perhaps as an attention getting tool. Seems one might be able to edit it should it have only been a "Mis-understanding" :wtf:

. . . . . . . . . . . http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/otn/other/popworm.gif

Which only applies to a fraction of the folders here. I don't use Heatware, I don't trade parts online that much. Would that automatically disqualify me?

Dexter...

Camman

24 Dec 2003, 8:45pm

I'm not an "SMx project member" so maybe my opinion in this means little, but here goes anyway.

While I don't agree that the machines value is "$100" or around there, I really think saying "pieces of equipment worth thousands of dollars" sounds like trying to make something a bigger deal than it is. Yes, they are worth several hundred dollars, some more and some less, but I think putting a "legal team" on the SMx project is a poor idea.

People are going to shy away from hosting a box if they have to sign some piece of paper that says "THIS BOX WILL FOLD 24/7 OR WE'RE GOING TO TAKE LEGAL ACTION" and yes I know that's over dramatic, and I know people can take vacations and turn them off, etc, but that's basically what you're saying. I understand that it does no good for the team to have people take boxes and then not fold with them and never hear from them again, but it also does no good for the team to have people not want to worry about legal issues involved with hosting a machine and therfore not hosting one.

Remember - if they choose to challenge, that's more they gotta pay when they get shot down in court
I think this especially holds true when we see team leaders making statements like that. This isn't a personal attack on you, but, it just seems like a rather drastic statement to make, makes it seem like the whole legal idea is getting off on the wrong foot to have such an aggressive "we're gonna get you if you mess up" attitude.

primesuspect

24 Dec 2003, 8:46pm

Well then what do you suggest we do to recover stolen equipment, Camman?

Thrax

24 Dec 2003, 8:48pm

Ze Gestapo.

Camman

24 Dec 2003, 8:56pm

primesuspect had this to say
Well then what do you suggest we do to recover stolen equipment, Camman?

Funny that everyone uses the word "donate" when supplying parts to the SMx machines and then you call it 'recovering stolen equipment' ?? how can this be? I know that you're not "donating" this equipment to the people who are hosting the machines and it's to the team, just seems to me that most people who are supporting this are having a pretty agressive stance about it. Might affect people who were thinking about hosting machines is all I was saying, no need for personal attack through sarcasm.

but anyway, I was just providing my thoughts on this, I dont host an SMx box, I havent donated any parts and I havent given the team any money, so, my point is moot.

primesuspect

24 Dec 2003, 9:10pm

I'm not attacking you at all, you should know me well enough to know that.

I'm seriously asking your opinion. I am somewhat in agreement with you - legal action is too harsh. But I honestly can't think of a better way to recover stolen equipment. Yes, it is stolen - the people who donated, myself for example, have a certain expectation. I sent a case to a host. It was brand new, not top of the line, but a little bit of money, especially with shipping. Do you think I want that case to go to some dude who's just gonna walk off with it? No way. I would consider that stealing. I gave that case to the team so that we could have another folding computer. If someone took it and used it for a different purpose, and I wanted it back, and was ignored and rebuffed, I would DEFINITELY consider that stealing.

So, no personal attacks intended, I'm asking honestly: What do you recommend?

Camman

24 Dec 2003, 9:12pm

Well, I am curious which boxes now are presumably stolen (not returning work units, no contact from box hosts), I was under the impress they were all of the Icrontic series? If they are, I think maybe the whole site change and everything maybe had something to do with it?

I mean maybe these people weren't aware of the change and stopped visiting Icrontic and when it wasn't there for a while they just said "eh, must be gone" or do you know for a fact they are intentionally not returning your equipment and/or ignoring your attempts at contacting them?

Thrax

24 Dec 2003, 9:13pm

SMx machines are not given for personal ownership.

The host is essentially borrowing them, knowing the costs incurred for electricity.

Just like a book from the library, if it isn't returned when it needs to be, and doesn't return under subsequent threats of collection etcetera, it's now stolen.

That's my .02c on the nature of the rigs.

Enverex

24 Dec 2003, 9:26pm

Thrax had this to say
Ze Gestapo.

Brings back memories of FoldingAddict and his red uniform....

Leonardo

24 Dec 2003, 9:38pm

I don't trade parts online that much. Would that automatically disqualify me?

No.

Some general points:

As the complexity of the Short-Media Donated Folding@Home Computer project ("SMX") has grown, so have the restrictions governing hosting the the SMX rigs. Why? As it has turned out, the great majority of the SMX recipients have been completely honorable, faithful, and diligent with maintain their Team Short-Media owned equipment.

The main purpose for a host to sign a legal agreement with the Team/Short-Media Web owners is to impress upon the candidate host the purpose of hosting, and the objective requirements of hosting. Would we (Team, Site, Site Owners - take your pick), go to court to recover an SMX machine? Probably not - but that's not really the point. The legal form is merely another tool in the chest to keep an ever expanding program running smoothly.

A gentlemens' agreement between the Team and host candidates, as it used to be, would be far preferable to our newly-added bureaucracy. Unfortunately, we can't rely anymore simply on one's word. Some of our hosts (10% or less!), have turned out to be less than mature and honorable.

Cyclonite

24 Dec 2003, 9:45pm

Being on vacation, I haven't been able to follow this entire thread. I've seen most of the posts, but missed some. Anyway, I wouldn't mind signing a form agreeing to the fact that I don't own the machine: that it is Team Short-Media's. I understand where the people in charge are coming from, and I don't mind either way. Whatever you decide, that's fine with me.

MrBill

24 Dec 2003, 10:22pm

Leonardo had this to say
The main purpose for a host to sign a legal agreement with the Team/Short-Media Web owners is to impress upon the candidate host the purpose of hosting, and the objective requirements of hosting. Would we (Team, Site, Site Owners - take your pick), go to court to recover an SMX machine? Probably not - but that's not really the point. The legal form is merely another tool in the chest to keep an ever expanding program running smoothly.

A gentlemens' agreement between the Team and host candidates, as it used to be, would be far preferable to our newly-added bureaucracy. Unfortunately, we can't rely anymore simply on one's word. Some of our hosts (10% or less!), have turned out to be less than mature and honorable.

Whether you have a signed legal document or not, it is still a "gentlemen's agreement" since everyone has said legal action would not be taken to recover a "stolen" box.

Why have the names of the person(s) who have "stolen" SMx boxes not been published? (maybe they have) If it is truly team property, everyone on the team has a right to know who they are. Maybe someone on the team knows somebody who knows somebody who knows the "thief" and can get the box back.

That being said, signing a contract would not deter me from wanting to host a SMx box should I have the desire to do so. :)

Note: I'm not picking at you Leo. I'm just using what you said as an example.

profdlp

24 Dec 2003, 10:30pm

MrBill had this to say
Leonardo had this to say
...Would we (Team, Site, Site Owners - take your pick), go to court to recover an SMX machine? Probably not...

Whether you have a signed legal document or not, it is still a "gentlemen's agreement" since everyone has said legal action would not be taken to recover a "stolen" box...
"Probably not" does not mean absolutely not. It would certainly be a last resort, but empty threats are useless. Hopefully it would never come to that.

profdlp had this to say
...As far as the legal matters, I think if we ever did find our selves in that position here is what I see as most likely:

1) The mere threat of legal action will probably be enough to do the trick in all but the most hard-core cases.

2) For the hard-core cases, I say go after the first one with all our might. The next guy considering it might see the writing on the wall and pull a Libya.