Ideological Question

[Gate28]

Ive been thinking about this, so give it a long, hard think...

Whats the difference between a patriot and an extremist, beside which side they're on?

[Leonardo]

Dictionary.com is your friend.

Not to be rude, but I do not want this to become a political debate. We steer away from politics and religion at Icrontic.

[Thrax]

This has annoying political argument written all over it.

[primesuspect]

Queue the tinfoil crew in 3.....

[Lincoln]

I would like a tinfoil fedora.

[bothered]

I think a patratiot is a made up word and an extremist is just some unbalanced nutter.

[j]

I would also like a tinfoil fedora

[Gate28]

-.-

All I wanted was an answer to a question about beliefs from people more seasoned with how the world works than I am.

[primesuspect]

Yeah, but Icrontic is not really the place for that.

[Gate28]

Yeah, but Icrontic is not really the place for that.

'Pose your right

[CB]

IRC, however...

[kryyst]

Patriot - One who loves and defends his or her country
Extremist - (used of opinions and actions) far beyond the norm

Patriot defends ones beliefs extremists attack others to try and prove their own. Fine line, but there is a line.

Also Patriot is limited to your country where as an extremist can be attached to any firm belief. Be it political, religious, environmental, dietary PC vs Mac zealots etc...

[airbornflght]

Depending how you look at it they are one and the same.

The difference is in the semantics and how one would like to spin it.

I'm going to try and handle this delicately. Take for instance the Muslims. Some of us may call them extremists because we can not comprehend why a sane person would take such acts just because of his beliefs. But he undoubtedly sees himself as a patriot because he is fighting and willing to die for what he believes in and to him his cause is just. He believes his death will eventually bring about that change so his is willing to put his life on the line for what he loves.

Go watch the movie "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson. It's a very good movie but don't watch it from the perspective of an American. Remove yourself, your pride, and your ambitions from the situation and truly watch it from the outside. You can see he is fighting with what might be called an unrelenting fervor. He thought of himself as a patriot whereas the Brits thought he had fallen off his rocker.

I think the way most people see it is a patriot has given up his selfish desires and has devoted himself to be a mechanism to bring about a greater good than himself. So some may think of a patriot as a selfless individual. Conversely, the extremist may be seen as extremely selfish, only fighting because he wants things to be his way.

Is this making sense? It's an incomplete thought but it really requires self reflection. I don't want to get into an argument and I think I handled it with plenty of care. If you disagree then disagree, but don't lash out. We are all mature individuals and there is no reason mature individuals should not be able to conduct themselves with civility. In no way am I saying this is how it is. Because the truth is it's different for everyone. There is no answer. All I can tell you is what I feel.

[LawnMM]

In short I would say a patriot is one who goes to great lengths for their country. An extremist is someone who, as the name suggests, goes to extreme lengths for religious reasons. Using AB's example...Muslim extremists aren't fighting to better their individual countries, but their faith.

[Gargoyle]

Extremists aren't necessarily religious. Just extreme. You could have extreme patriots, ultra-nationalists, or something of that sort.

[Nomad]

Whats the difference between a patriot and an extremist, beside which side they're on?

Perspective.

[LawnMM]

Extremists aren't necessarily religious. Just extreme. You could have extreme patriots, ultra-nationalists, or something of that sort.

When was the last time you heard the word extremist used to describe somebody other than a religious zealot? You can have patriotic klan members but you don't typically describe them that way.

[GHoosdum]

I would like a tinfoil fedora.

Dammit. The duct tape fedora wasn't enough for you?

Alright, alright, I'll get to work.

[CB]

Perspective.

[Thrax]

Perspective.

[Khaos]

Queue the tinfoil crew in 3.....

Patriots wear Reynolds Wrap, extremists wear Great Value brand.






Both are blinded by their own misguided passions.

/invective

[Gnome Queen]

*Closes this thread with her mind*

[Snarkasm]

When was the last time you heard the word extremist used to describe somebody other than a religious zealot? You can have patriotic klan members but you don't typically describe them that way.

How about the ultra-militants that hole themselves away in Montana and get into standoffs with the FBI? Those are gun/anarchy/freedom extremists, and it has nothing to do with religion.

[airbornflght]

Perspective.

Nomad summed up my post beautifully. It's how you see yourself and how others see you.

[Leonardo]

When was the last time you heard the word extremist used to describe somebody other than a religious zealot?As in environmentalist extremists. As in political extremists, such as anarchists.

[Lincoln]

Alright, alright, I'll get to work.
Good lad.

[GnomeWizardd]

i guess i think a patriot is one who is for their country and would die to defend it, Extremist in my view are ones who go out and blow them selves up for the name of whatever god they choose and claim innocent lives even in PEACEFUL regions

selflessness has a lot to do with a patriot IMHO but extremist not all but a lot of them are " i wanna get me 40 virgins because i am a martyr "

And I am not a hater on Muslims at all, a Muslim and an extremist Muslim are two different things


while I may not agree with a Muslims beliefs i respect the beliefs

extremist weather be Muslim Christian Hindu or whatever take a religion and twist it to fit their own selfish agenda

[Nomad]

claim innocent lives even in PEACEFUL regions

Allied patriotism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Bombing)

[Black Hawk]

When was the last time you heard the word extremist used to describe somebody other than a religious zealot? You can have patriotic klan members but you don't typically describe them that way.

I hear about extreme left and right groups in Central/South America every day. American media is more focused on the Middle East right now so you'll hear more about religions extremism.

As Nomad has pointed out, it's all about the point of view. If someone is in agreement, they're patriots to them and if they're not, they're extremists. I'm sure some people in Peru consider the Shining Path patriotic while others think of them as extremists.

Civil war in Spain was fought by both far right and far left but they consider themselves patriotic since they believed what they were fighting for was in the best interest of their country. It's all about perspective.

-Edit-

I forgot, I don't know how you people are using "patriot" but it literately means love of country or zeal in defense of country. IMO, bombings in name of religion can in no way be considered patriotic.

Atleast in Latin America patriotism/ultra nationalism or extremism is mostly used in the context of guerilla groups.

-Edit 2-

Should be noted, it seems in this thread "Patriotism" has a positive connotation and that shouldn't be the case.

[Khaos]

Patriotism is generally self-descriptive. That's why it has positive connotations in almost any context. A self-described patriot is often, but not always, another man's extremist.

Also, if you take a looser definition of patriot as being any zealot of any known, recognized, geopolitical body, then indeed Muslim terrorists can (and do) self-describe themselves as patriots.

Remember, nation states are a relatively recent phenomenon in human sociopolitical organization. Before nations we had empires and feifdoms, clans and tribes, units, and so on and so forth. Patriotism, however, is a theme that has existed ever since our hominid ancestors organized into larger communities that bordered other reasonably large communities.

To paraphrase The Left Hand of Darkness:

To love is to hate, for what is light without the darkness?

[j]

I can;t believe this discussion still exist. way to political

[Gnome Queen]

*Closes the thread again with the power of her mind*

[Black Hawk]

Because the thread has somehow remained civilized? It can happen on rare occasions you know.

[Leonardo]

Let me review for my fellow forum members Icrontics "debate" and thread policy:

No political or religious discussions.
Debate is allowed, but staff reserves the right to close or moderate any debate thread as the staff sees fit to preserve the good order of the forums.

This thread:

Is so far on semantics and philosophy, not really on politics.
Posters are not showing disrespect to each other, or not using profanity, and are not trolling.l

Thanks everyone for being classy.

[rolleggroll]

A patriot responds to the codename "La Le Li Lo Lu"......

[Thrax]

http://eatourbrains.com/EoB/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/troll.jpg

[Leonardo]

Friggin' trolls!

[Gnome Queen]

I would argue that it is certainly about politics, and is offensive on several fronts. We just haven't gotten into an argument about it, nor do I care to start one. (Perhaps I should remove the word argue in my first sentence then...meh. Lazy) I'm not offended and I don't care if yal want to continue the conversation, and I just thought it might not be IC appropriate. Also, I enjoy closing things with the power of my mind.

Also, I love those trolls. I remember back in the day we used to get awesome ones that had rainbow hair and jewels in their ears or belly buttons. I had a whole collection. I think that they're still in my basement, actually....

[-tk]

longest semantical debate ever!

[airbornflght]

We're not debating, simply exchanging opinions. lol.

[SweetDragon]

airbornflght " We're not debating, simply exchanging opinions. lol."


I recently dropped a mommies group I was in because is wasn't safe to type what I think. We all deserve a safe place to exchange thoughts in a respectful manner. This thread isn't political or offensive. It's not attacking anyone it's just open to opinions. I personally like reading it. I wish I knew more so I could participate in it.

To all those not interested in it feel free to not read it. It is posted on the internet. So you have the choice to read it and be involved or not.

One of the reasons I love this club is because there are so many different people in different places. With different views. I want to know what others think. I might just learn something!!! Even when my opinion is different, I love doing the research to find the facts to explain my view.

Unless someone is attacking someone else personally then issues should be discussed. Openly with others who have different views. In a safe environment (on-line) where we can be adults and choose to be part of the discussion or not.

I hope to see more post like this in the future. I hope to be more active in them.;D

[Leonardo]

Unless someone is attacking someone else personallyNot a problem here. Zero tolerance on that score. Personal attacks = emotional instability or lack of compelling argument.

[airbornflght]

^this!