Well, they finally did it...

[MAGIC]

... they made the game suck.

Nice work on making item unlocks random, dumb asses. :shakehead

[Thrax]

Tell me more. I don't get what you mean? I'm curious about it.

[Gnome Queen]

Instead of earning achievements, which in stages unlock new weapons for each class, you now obtain those weapons entirely randomly. Like, you just get a notice saying "you have found the backburner" and you have a new weapon, regardless of whether or not you have played that class extensively or done any achievements. The achievements are now meaningless except to say that you have them, and there's no guarantee that you're going to get the weapons you want in a given time frame.

[primesuspect]

I agree that it sucks for many reasons; but at the same time it makes achievement whoring obsolete, which is a very good thing.

[Black Hawk]

I can deal with achievement whores more than I can deal with this unlock system.

[MiracleManS]

I think its nice for people like me capable of getting the items without having to play a class to death. There are some items I'd like to try out that would likely change my opinion of the class (looking at the pyro mostly).

Edit: Just found this interview http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1124

[MAGIC]

Well, the classes i enjoy are the ones i have even bothered getting the unlockables in: Medic and heavy. The only others i would really care to get them in is sniper and Engi. I played for like 4 hours yesterday trying to get any of the sniper items and i was rewarded with unlocking the Axtinguiser, 4 times. Now whenever i play i will just be annoyed.

[Gargoyle]

That's really weird. I mean, I'd like a system that makes it a little easier to get the weapons without achievement whoring, but this one sounds ridiculous.

[Sciz]

I agree that it sucks for many reasons; but at the same time it makes achievement whoring obsolete, which is a very good thing.

I'd rather deal with the idiots who achievement whore then have my 17 achievements as a spy and not a single new unlockable...Frustrating is an understatement and underwhelming is a decent way to put it. My vocab isn't great so bare with me. Regardless, I have a friend who has been playing all night, literally almost 10 or 11 hours straight (free weekend but he is buying it now). He has only unlocked the natascha randomly as well as the ambassador. In my like 4 hours of playing I got BONK!, Butslauger, KGB, and Kritzkrieg, all of which I already fucking have so I deleted them from my briefcase. FUCK the new update...

[MAGIC]

Everyone send a bug report and complain about it. Im sure most others are pissed about it. This wont stay like this long im sure.

[Lincoln]

It's possible the idea is sound but that last night's play was buggy. Redundant item-getting doesn't seem like something Valve would do on purpose.

[Thrax]

That sounds pretty god damn lame, not gonna lie. I always saw unlockables as a reward for quality play. I've never received anything but the flare gun, but the sense of accomplishment was great because I knew I played well to get it.

Oh well. Everything gets nerfed for casuals.

[Sciz]

I have been frequenting the Steam community forums...appraently 99% of the community feels the same way. Plus people have already been getting "hats" as well from the random unlocks. In my playing last night I saw nothing of a hat of any type unlocked. Apparently the Pyro gets a propeller cap, and the engi gets a mining helmet. For now they are just cosmetic. Still though, 17 fuckin spy achievements and 12 Sniper and nothing to show for it...that's just wrong. Let them achievement whore..that's the point of it. Valve says they are making it RPG esque, well newflash Valve, RPG is all about farming...

[Sciz]

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/giveustf2back?

Join this group and complain.

[MiracleManS]

From the interview I linked, it looked like they wanted it to be randomly possible AND possible through game play. I think this is broken.

[pragtastic]

I played from server release to 2am last night, not 1 single f*&%'ing unlock all night. I hate this.

[Sciz]

From the interview I linked, it looked like they wanted it to be randomly possible AND possible through game play. I think this is broken.

Agreed, it's like they are "testing" out the new system on us. Fuck that, just test it yourself first and when you realize it's broken then don't release the update. Take another day if you have to. I'd rather not have the update right now if I knew it would work properly after this weekend then have it be like this.

[MiracleManS]

Agreed, it's like they are "testing" out the new system on us. Fuck that, just test it yourself first and when you realize it's broken then don't release the update. Take another day if you have to. I'd rather not have the update right now if I knew it would work properly after this weekend then have it be like this.

No matter how hard they test it internally, they don't have a legion of 20-30k+ people playing the game constantly to do the kind of testing necessary for this sort of change.

[Sciz]

No matter how hard they test it internally, they don't have a legion of 20-30k+ people playing the game constantly to do the kind of testing necessary for this sort of change.

Problem is they don't have to. You realize how broken the system is?? People are sitting in servers afk all day now and getting random unlocks when they get back. You don't even have to fucking play, they could've tested that and you know it.

[Buddy J]

They said they're quite willing to use the public as guinea pigs as a way to see if things are good or bad. I think the reaction thus far is it's not a popular change. Hopefully they'll see it as such.

[Sciz]

They said they're quite willing to use the public as guinea pigs as a way to see if things are good or bad. I think the reaction thus far is it's not a popular change. Hopefully they'll see it as such.


Agreed, the public is saying "fuck your new update give us back the old TF2" so I think they will listen. If they don't I think people will literally stop playing TF2 until it's fixed. I mean seriously, sitting in spec all day and earning unlocks...that's pathetic.

[Sciz]

Just found this posted on that group I joined. Funny shit.

It was the 21st of May.
And happy was thought the Day.
That Valve would let us Play.
But the update took too Long.
And the Weapon Drop System was Wrong.
New weapons to no player Belonged.
For Valve did not Say that they threw Pro Players Away.
For this Valve will surely PAY. $$$

[MiracleManS]

Agreed, the public is saying "fuck your new update give us back the old TF2" so I think they will listen. If they don't I think people will literally stop playing TF2 until it's fixed. I mean seriously, sitting in spec all day and earning unlocks...that's pathetic.

Meh, I don't think its that big a deal. The weapons themselves aren't exactly game breaking, I think Valve did a good job of making sure they fit with the style of the game.

I dislike the idea that I have to spend countless time getting weapons that obviously have a use. I LOVE playing the Heavy class, so I managed to get the unlocks, but there are times that I need to play other classes and not having some of those situational weapons basically makes me question playing those classes (despite the need of the team) because I can't be effective in that role that is needed.

[pragtastic]

Yeah, I understand the idea of making weapons accessible to those who don't play the other classes very often, but the flip side of this infuriates me.

I have countless hours logged as a sniper. I can continue playing my class all day long, earning all the achievements and never 'find' one of the unlocks. There is absolutely zero control over it, which in my opinion, makes it about as stupid an idea as is feasibly possible in its current state.

[MAGIC]

You dont raid in an MMO to get gear for a class you dont play. The time you put into playing a particular class should be rewarded with advances for that class, it only makes sense.

[pragtastic]

At the very absolute minimum, Valve should have incorporated a system where player's would basically auto-find items after meeting baseline game play levels. My suggestion would be something like a forced unlock (it could still be random I guess) after every 2 hours of game play or 10-20 achievements unlocked.

This way players can actually do *something* in the way of obtaining items on a predictable basis rather than just hoping you mysteriously *find an item* for no apparent reason.

[Thrax]

AQ Gates.

[Myrmidon]

Whoa.

Man, I'm glad I already have all the unlocks for the classes I play. :)

[Winfrey]

Valve,

fix this shit

Thanks,
Winfrey

[CB]

I do think that the system of forcing people to whore achievements to get the items was not working, personally. Those who play casually or who aren't very good at the game were being discouraged from playing (yes, that's a bad thing).

I don't think that this new system is working the way they intended it to. It just doesn't make sense, but I'm glad they are trying to do something other than basing it on achievements.

Frankly, a better system than this new one would just be to give everyone access to all of the items. Maybe make the cosmetic items something that need to be earned, but let everyone have access to the game-changing stuff.

This isn't an MMORPG.

[Norge]

I don't play the game but to me this seems pretty ridiculous. Having weapon rewards be 100% random makes no sense and is just discouraging. An experience based system seems more reasonable. That way they can adjust the experience curve. Set it so when you swap to a new class you have to put some time into it but not so much to discourage playing it. With the experience curve set right a player new to a class would have enough play time in to understand the class well enough to actually know how to properly use the new weapon they just received. Hardcore players will get their weapons without having to wait on the random aspect. It means hardcore players will have all the weapons fairly quickly but that is the end result this random system will give anyhow.

Norge

[MAGIC]

I do think that the system of forcing people to whore achievements to get the items was not working, personally. Those who play casually or who aren't very good at the game were being discouraged from playing (yes, that's a bad thing).


Making items unlockable based on achievements encourages people to develope skill in few particular classes. This encourages players to play classes they are good at resulting in the quality of players in game better as a whole.

[Buddy J]

That's provided that the game play makes players want to earn achievements. Obviously some players don't feel the reward is worth working for, or they're just too lazy to do it.

[MAGIC]

Well, they choose to limit their effectiveness in their prefered classes. They can be the best players they can be with what they choose.

[Sciz]

I just hate the fact that people whoa re playing for free are getting to try out the new weapons whereas me who's had the game a decent amount of time, not long but long enough, ain't getting shit. I have like 17 spy achievements and nothing to show for it. What the hell am I getting achievements for. This isn't XBOX where achievements are simply for gamer points. It use to be achievements meant something. Valve, don't become Xbox...

[MiracleManS]

[v][AGIC']Well, they choose to limit their effectiveness in their prefered classes. They can be the best players they can be with what they choose.

But limiting the availability for someone like myself, who plays MAYBE 5-6 hours a month (unless EPIC/LAN is coming, then it's a bit more frequent, maybe 3 hours a week), because of some sort of half-assed notion of increasing player ability in specific instances seems a bit silly.

I like playing the heavy almost exclusively (scout is a distant second), but I also like playing the other classes to test out all the little quirks. One of those quirks includes the additional weapons, some of which can have an astounding impact on game play (sandman?). Its frustrating to not be capable of the same impact on the playing field despite what might be decent/acceptable ability. This really hurts a player base and a group as a whole when trying to do team makeup. The weapons are situational and sometimes it would make more sense for me to play a Scout than a Heavy (given, for example, there are 2 other heavies on the team that are well and above better than me as heavy, but we may be even as scouts). In this case, though, because I haven't logged as much time as our previous other two people, I don't have the chance to change the outcome in a similar way as the other people.

I know you don't do things for another class in an MMO, but that's SLIGHTLY different than in this case.

I think they had the right idea from the interview of making it random (not quite as often here) OR based on achievements. Give people both, not just one. I think that's the best way to do it.

[Sciz]

But limiting the availability for someone like myself, who plays MAYBE 5-6 hours a month, because of some sort of half-assed notion of increasing player ability in specific instances seems a bit silly.

I know you don't do things for another class in an MMO, but that's SLIGHTLY different than in this case.

I think they had the right idea from the interview of making it random (not quite as often here) OR based on achievements. Give people both, not just one. I think that's the best way to do it.

Not a bad idea, let the people who want to achievement whore, albeit achievement servers or just earning them the good ol' fashioned way, get their unlocks as well as people who don't care can get them randomly. That would encourage people who aren't "good" at the game to still think "hey, I can get the new weapon randomly, I might get lucky". Not a bad idea at all. Have both.

[MiracleManS]

Not a bad idea, let the people who want to achievement whore, albeit achievement servers or just earning them the good ol' fashioned way, get their unlocks as well as people who don't care can get them randomly. That would encourage people who aren't "good" at the game to still think "hey, I can get the new weapon randomly, I might get lucky". Not a bad idea at all. Have both.

I honestly think that was the intention from that interview I linked above. I just wonder if its ACTUALLY working, or if its some sort of strange scenario where the random generator was rolling off too fast from the central steam servers because of the massive influx of players (free weekend + updates?)

[Sciz]

I honestly think that was the intention from that interview I linked above. I just wonder if its ACTUALLY working, or if its some sort of strange scenario where the random generator was rolling off too fast from the central steam servers because of the massive influx of players (free weekend + updates?)

Regardless of what it is I am giving them until Monday morning to get this shit fixed. After the free weekend is over this better be fixed. If it isn't..well there game has gone to shit officially and they will lose a large fan base. Already people are saying they won't play until it's fixed.

[pragtastic]

Their 'random' works kinda like this implementation of random (http://xkcd.com/221/).

[MAGIC]

How is my argument half assed? It really comes down to which segment Valve wants to cater to, and from what i read there is a much greater number of people upset about this than not.

[MiracleManS]

[v][AGIC']How is my argument half assed? It really comes down to which segment Valve wants to cater to, and from what i read there is a much greater number of people upset about this than not.

I'm upset about it, but not for the same reasons. I'd be perfectly happy if the random were LESS frequent and involved the class you were playing AND also provided you the ability to earn them through achievements. From their interview I linked, the overwhelming feedback they've received about Weapon Unlocks is that making it achievement based doesn't please the majority of players. The interview also mentioned they wanted to provide BOTH the ability to earn it through achievements AND randomly. I don't see what's wrong with both worlds there.

My reference to half-assed arguments was in regards to the whole "hardcore" vs "causal" debate. In a game of this nature it seems specious, especially when its easy to cater to both.

[MiracleManS]

Regardless of what it is I am giving them until Monday morning to get this shit fixed. After the free weekend is over this better be fixed. If it isn't..well there game has gone to shit officially and they will lose a large fan base. Already people are saying they won't play until it's fixed.

See, I think that's why it HASN'T been fixed yet, the free weekend. The last thing you want to do is require ANOTHER patch on what would be a big selling point weekend.

I really, really don't think this is a case of "working as intended" but more along the lines of "Shit, didn't expect that, but we can't fix it now because it'll kill the weekend"

[Gnome Queen]

I'm sure that Valve will fix this in the near future, considering the tons of bad feedback they must be getting. I wouldn't judge them too harshly based upon this one instance, considering that that they seem like a company that really tries to change based upon user feedback, and does what they can to cater to the customer in terms of releasing new updates, good game deals, and overall interesting games. I'm just going to wait and see what their next move is.

Also "So...how are the weapons unlocked?" "OMG IT'S RANDOM!!!"

[Buddy J]

Yeah, I figure they'll revert it or change it after the free weekend. Valve has a history of listening to the community, and this is probably the most vocal the community has been since the game's launch. We've been given no reason to think they'd ignore the community's response, and countless reasons to think that they'll continue listening to the community for feedback as they've done so in the past.

[Myrmidon]

Isn't it painful that when a company has a history of listening to the fanbase, the fanbase becomes abusive? Reading some of those posts in the steamforums... daaaamn.

EDIT: At least it's not a LOT of people making posts like that. There's still some good on the internet.

[UPSLynx]

I honestly think people are being to brash and quick to respond on this issue.

Like MiracleMan mentioned, unlocking via the old method becomes discouraging for those that don't play as often. I don't have much time to play TF2 these days. Despite Heavy Weapons Guy being my 3rd main class, I had only managed to unlock the sanvich. I've been unable to play the game enough to do things like fire 50 billion bullets nonstop and to kill 80 people without dying. It was frustrating because I wanted the extra weapons, and despite playing the game on and off for the greater part of 7 months since the update, I had only managed the first unlockable.

I think a lot of people are overreacting to rage on this. The update hasn't even been live for 24 hours, and people are screaming that it's bullcrap that they don't have their unlockables yet.

Relax. Enjoy the game. Get the weapons when they come.

The fact that this is stopping achievement farming is outstanding. Achievements mean nothing in my eyes, especially when people are playing custom maps designed solely for unlocking achievements and weapons. Not to mention people hacking and instant unlocks. People are pissed because they can no longer take advantage of the system and get what they want RIGHT NOW.

This doesn't mean I think the current system is perfect. I think it needs much work (snowWhite joined the server last night and immediately had the sniper's bow). But is it ruining the game? No. Will Valve loose their massive fan base? No. Will they fix it? You bet.

[Koreish]

Isn't it painful that when a company has a history of listening to the fanbase, the fanbase becomes abusive? Reading some of those posts in the steamforums... daaaamn.

EDIT: At least it's not a LOT of people making posts like that. There's still some good on the internet.

I would hate to work at Valve for that exact reason. Valve continually provides updates for FREE to all of their games and they make a conscious effort to listen to the fans. By comparison EA may release two patches for a game and proceed to ignore the game and it's fans entirely. Bethesda charges for updates. If Valve wants to test a new system for awhile then by all means they're allowed to because they'll change it if gamers don't like it. It isn't necessary for people to explode at a corporation that is so involved with it's customers the way they are.

[pragtastic]

The system is extremely inconsistent in it's current state and player's have literally 0 control of the unlocks. You can't actually put a little work into the game and be rewarded for it, you're forced to just play and hope the unlock you want to use to change up your game play is randomly awarded to you. Not so much fun IMO.

[CB]

I'm with Koreish here. You guys are getting your updates for free, and the game itself didn't even cost much to begin with. They didn't have to ever give us any new items or updates, but they were cool enough to keep working on and trying to improve the game. They're not perfect, there are bound to be occasional mistakes, and even if this is a particularly grievous mistake, they still don't deserve the vehemence that they are getting over this.

If you don't like the game anymore, don't play anymore, or wait until they "fix" it. I'm sure you've gotten your $20 out of it by now.

[MiracleManS]

The system is extremely inconsistent in it's current state and player's have literally 0 control of the unlocks. You can't actually put a little work into the game and be rewarded for it, you're forced to just play and hope the unlock you want to use to change up your game play is randomly awarded to you. Not so much fun IMO.

I agree there, which is why a mix of both worlds would be nice...

I know you and I have discussed this on GChat, but I think it works out better in the long run.

Make it so that anytime you get a "Look on the bright side" type message, a random thing goes off and says "OH HEY, LETS SEE IF YOU GET SOMETHING". Hell have it increase chance the more you play a class. There are some of us that just don't try and get achievements at all and just go with it.

Clarification Edit: While also keeping the achievements in as a way to get the weapons.

Lets also be honest. Some of the achievements are less about skill and more about "OH HEY I NEED THIS SOMEONE UBER ME I'M A SCOUT!" or plain old dumb luck

[UPSLynx]

The system is extremely inconsistent in it's current state and player's have literally 0 control of the unlocks. You can't actually put a little work into the game and be rewarded for it, you're forced to just play and hope the unlock you want to use to change up your game play is randomly awarded to you. Not so much fun IMO.

The key here, I believe, is fun.

Have we all forgotten how to just play the game and have fun together? When did this become a contest? When did it become 'pro' tier?

Prag, you and I share a similar view on the game. Especially as a sniper player, I really want these new weapons as well. But I don't think TF2 should have ever been a game that caters to 'busting your balls to gain outlandish achievements' just to become a better player.

I'm becoming convinced that a hybrid system is what we need ultimately. But as I stated before, the game is hardly ruined. This should have never become a contest that focuses on unlocking. The game always has been and always should be about having fun.

[MAGIC]

I want a challenge in the game. Achievements provided that. When i got the ubersaw, back when you had to get every acheivement to unlock, it was a very nice feeling to know that i had it and others didn't. Showed that i had the skill, dedicaton, and in most cases luck to get get every achievement.

[Buddy J]

The only benefit I've found with the new system is that I can play whatever class I want or whatever the team needs and still get the items. I played Engie last night because we needed one, and I was still able to get the BONK! drink I'd been wanting/needing for when I play scout. It'll come in handy in the future to have it, but at the time, I was better off serving as an Engineer than trying to get my Scout achievements.

[MiracleManS]

The only benefit I've found with the new system is that I can play whatever class I want or whatever the team needs and still get the items. I played Engie last night because we needed one, and I was still able to get the BONK! drink I'd been wanting/needing for when I play scout. It'll come in handy in the future to have it, but at the time, I was better off serving as an Engineer than trying to get my Scout achievements.

This right here is why I'm all for the random, but toned down to not give them out every 30 seconds.

[UPSLynx]

[v][AGIC']I want a challenge in the game. Achievements provided that. When i got the ubersaw, back when you had to get every acheivement to unlock, it was a very nice feeling to know that i had it and others didn't. Showed that i had the skill, dedicaton, and in most cases luck to get get every achievement.

I understand that statement, and it was a weapon well deserved. But such an idea is invalidated, in my opinion, by the existence of achievement farming maps, and the fact that it alienates the players who are good at the game, yet don't have the incredible amounts of time to devote to unlocking those key weapons.

Many people were getting the weapons that didn't rightfully deserve them. It sort of defeated the purpose, making those that weren't willing to 'cheat' but weren't able to get them in good time.

[QCH]

I've been playing since TF2 came out and I play Medic often and I feel I am above average... I still do not have the Ubersaw....

So, this means one of three things... 1) The skill (or achievements) is beyond my level OR 2) the achievements are too stupid for everyday game experience OR 3) the old Achievment system didn't work.

On one hand I am upset that some of the achievements are pointless but necessary to unlock a new weapon. On the other hand, I'll be damned if a new guy walks up to me and uses his ubersaw on me when he has less than 5% the experience or skill.

The system should reward you for playing with utmost skill but also for dedication. The new weapon achievement unlocks should be lessened AND those that accumilate "X" hours, or kills, or heals should ALSO be rewarded.

Playing my ass off and getting a weapon for a class that I am not fond of is a waste. I know... "maybe the new weapon will make you like the class" but I know that my skills are not well suited to sniper, spy, or scout. I can play them and do some good but only if the situation requires me to change.

My system would be as follows.... Each class has 50 achievements. 10 achievements you receive a random unlock within that class. 20 another unlock, 30 another, so on.

For each 100 hours of TF2 you randomly get one or the other, grant a new unlock OR level up a weapon (Same weapon but with bonuses). Every 100 hrs equals a chance to unlock a new weapon or at least level up an existing weapon. Make it 50 hrs for a class and the odds increase that you will get a weapon.

Another option.... just assign skill points for hours, achievements, and random. Then "charge" for upgrades and unlocks....

What does this do... rewards skill, effort, and branches out

[QCH]

Lynx... another option. Make earning an Achievement based on certified maps and not allow custom maps to be rewarded except for hrs played. I'm not saying NO CUSTOM maps... just make them go through some certification as being fair.

[Sciz]

At this point I am kind of "dis"couraged to play TF2. Mainly because random new people as well as people who aren't getting any "new" achievements already have the huntsmen, cloak and dagger, razorback, jarate, etc. I have NOTHING yet so it's frustrating because the gameplay differs against a spy with cloak and dagger or playing a spy against a sniper with razorback or jarate. I am at a disadvantage for playing more and getting the proper achievements....doesn't make sense.

[primesuspect]

It's been out for like.... 22 hours.

[Winfrey]

I am never fucking playing this game again!

[UPSLynx]

It's been out for like.... 22 hours.

this. time a million.

[Sciz]

It's been out for like.... 22 hours.

I understand this. I am just saying, until it's fixed I won't be playing as much. It's not cool that some people who are playing for free already have some if not all the new weapons and I have jack shit.

[Lincoln]

I do think that the system of forcing people to whore achievements to get the items was not working, personally.
It took me up until Monday or so to finally get the Ubersaw. I was ecstatic. I was just gushing about it. It didn't bother me in the least it took me so long to get it, because Medic isn't a frequent class for me.

Likewise, I still only have 1 scout unlock, despite playing scout a LOT. It's slightly annoying, but I'm patient. The idea of just having things spontaneously appear is incredibly lame. Why even bother holding anything back at that point? I didn't sign up for World of Warcraft to go on a goddamn quest for the flare gun. "Switching weapons" is slowly transitioning into "managing your backpack's inventory" which is what Diablo is for (a game I do not play), not Team Fortress.

[Koreish]

If you read the blog Valve gives a decent explanation why they did it this way and that it did launch with some problems that they'll be fixing. I fully trust that by the end of the week we'll see a much improved system.

[Bobby1211]

Yes, Valve always explains

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2535

Future update:
Item trading. This is why you're finding duplicates.

-Bobby

[Sciz]

Yes, Valve always explains

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2535

Future update:


-Bobby


Honest opinion: Item trading in an FPS = wtf? Neat idea but again, this is an FPS in the end, so why add an RPG like style to it. If you ask me, they are going the wrong direction.

Update: seems they fixed most of the larger issues, I might get on right now...

May 22, 2009 - Team Fortress 2 Update Released


Updates to Team Fortress 2 have been released. The updates will be applied automatically when your Steam client is restarted. The specific changes include:

Team Fortress 2



Fixed Ambassador not using hitboxes to trace against players. It now works like all other bullet-firing weapons in the game
Fixed Ambassador shooting through gates
Fixed Ambassador not critting during the round win period
Fixed control point not being named correctly on Arena Sawmill
Fixed cloaked Spies being able to taunt attack
Fixed Spy feign death not being reflected in scoreboard
Fixed Jarate effect on DX8 machines
Fixed rare crash in Spy "A Cut Above" achievement
Fixed the backpack icon appearing over the "Could not connect to Steam" message in the client inventory
Fixed German localization string for respawning players showing %1

[Myrmidon]

So having played for a few (six, goddamn addiction) hours today, it seems to me that I might just be able to handle this new weapon-finding system.

Toward the beginning, I was just playing for the hell of it - "yeah, big deal, I have a few extra kritzkriegs lying around now, I could take or leave the new system" - and suddenly the Dead Ringer appeared.

I don't play spy. Not often, anyway; when I do, not well. Yet, suddenly I found myself utterly and totally compelled to be a dime-a-dozen backstabbing scumbag. And it was a BLAST. You can rest assured I would NEVER have gotten that weapon on my own, as a pyro/medic/heavy whore. Now, spy is one of my favorite things to do.

Why, if this keeps up, you might even see me playing - *shudder* - SNIPER.

[UPSLynx]

Why, if this keeps up, you might even see me playing - *shudder* - SNIPER.

join us myrmidon... joooiinnnn us

I got my first unlock today. The big pistol for the Spy. I'll probably never use it.

[GnomeWizardd]

I Unlocked ( or picked up ) 3 today, The only one I really want is the new bone saw for medic other than that I think GIVING them out sucks for people who try and earn them

[QCH]

Why, if this keeps up, you might even see me playing - *shudder* - SNIPER.And so he foretold... and low and behold, he liked sniper too... :D

[Myrmidon]

it was... was... the arrows...

So beautiful... should have sent a poet!

[QCH]

it was... was... the arrows...

So beautiful... should have sent a poet!Nice "Contact" quote. ;)

[Gnome Queen]

it was... was... the arrows...

So beautiful... should have sent a poet!

I'm disowning you.

[primesuspect]

Myrmidon sniping..... sigh.

[Koreish]

What is this world coming to?

[Canti]

I honestly think people are being to brash and quick to respond on this issue.

Like MiracleMan mentioned, unlocking via the old method becomes discouraging for those that don't play as often. I don't have much time to play TF2 these days. Despite Heavy Weapons Guy being my 3rd main class, I had only managed to unlock the sanvich. I've been unable to play the game enough to do things like fire 50 billion bullets nonstop and to kill 80 people without dying. It was frustrating because I wanted the extra weapons, and despite playing the game on and off for the greater part of 7 months since the update, I had only managed the first unlockable.

I think a lot of people are overreacting to rage on this. The update hasn't even been live for 24 hours, and people are screaming that it's bullcrap that they don't have their unlockables yet.

Relax. Enjoy the game. Get the weapons when they come.

The fact that this is stopping achievement farming is outstanding. Achievements mean nothing in my eyes, especially when people are playing custom maps designed solely for unlocking achievements and weapons. Not to mention people hacking and instant unlocks. People are pissed because they can no longer take advantage of the system and get what they want RIGHT NOW.

This doesn't mean I think the current system is perfect. I think it needs much work (snowWhite joined the server last night and immediately had the sniper's bow). But is it ruining the game? No. Will Valve loose their massive fan base? No. Will they fix it? You bet.

^this

But since I have 2 pairs of the KGB and have no idea why I would need more than one I'm expecting that in a future update I will have this to look forward to :D.

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7923/goromk.jpg

[SnowWhiteCyanide]

I just want to point out that I had been playing on one server for a good hour with no achievements, then I switched to IC and after about 5 minutes got the HUNTSMAN. But I clearly deserved it, seeing as the first time I fired it, I got the achievement "Robin Hood." NICE.

[UPSWeezer]

Item trading and this whole inventory thing is stupid. They should have kept it the same in my opinion.

[Lincoln]

Item trading and this whole inventory thing is stupid. They should have kept it the same in my opinion.
Yup. Did not sign up for an RPG, kthx.

[DrLiam]

I like the new system as mentioned on their website, it is different and interesting.

[MiracleManS]

I like the new system as mentioned on their website, it is different and interesting.

I like that I get new items without having to sacrifice my life to it. AKA NOT AN MMO!

[Lincoln]

I like that I get new items without having to sacrifice my life to it. AKA NOT AN MMO!
If that was the goal, they could have just lowered the number of achievements required.

[mertesn]

If that was the goal, they could have just lowered the number of achievements required.
Either this or keep both the achievement and random systems. Last night I saw someone get Scout Milestone 3, which apparently still awards Bonk!... I wonder if a patch will be created adding Spy and Sniper milestones. It sure would go a long way to appease the long-time player base who enjoyed that system.

It's sad really. I love playing the game, but every time I see "PlayerX found <new weapon>" I lose motivation to continue playing.

[MiracleManS]

If that was the goal, they could have just lowered the number of achievements required.

But some of the achievements are just illogical/impossible to get without ridiculous amounts of time involved. I mean, 2004 lifetime kills? 50 capture point blocks? 500 damage in one life? Hell that's just the Scout (and that achievement pack was great, I thought).

Imagine the damned medic. Some of those are awful.

And while lowering the amount of achievements would be great, how low? The first milestone is set at 10 right now, do you lower it to 5? What about the rest? They STILL require an incredible amount of time to get for some classes. I mean, 10 achievements (while not farming and playing a normal game) can take a long time unless you're purposely trying to get them, which I think defeats the entire point of a reward system. How many times have we heard guys saying "Just let me alone while I do X" or "I need this and I'll have x!"?

Also don't forget that some of the achievements require the extra weapons, so that depletes our available pool for some classes to get the required number.

I guess my problem is that I shouldn't have to play each class for 10-12 hours to get a chance at the damned weapons. That turns into over 100 hours of gameplay time. I mean, really? 100 hours to even get a chance to try out the different weapons?

[Snarkasm]

On the other hand, those that DO play the class for 10-12 hours should get the relevant upgrades.

(I haven't been able to play, so haven't had time to really see this in action, just an observation.)

[drasnor]

At least with the medic pack you could get any of the achievements from the beginning. For example, if I want the Blutslager I need only get 10 out of 37 possible achievements. By contrast, if I want the Force of Nature I'm limited to 10 out of 24 possible achievements because the others are impossible to get without more advanced items. The remaining pool of 24 available achievements includes the three MiracleManS listed among others.

While it's frustrating to get tossed by the Force of Nature or stunned by the Sandman it's even more frustrating to not be able to do it myself. So while you may have the kind of time it takes to farm achievements for 0-day advantage I'm not sorry that Valve cares about casual gamers like myself and cramps your 1337 style.

-drasnor :fold:

[MAGIC]

If that was the goal, they could have just lowered the number of achievements required.

They did lower how many achievements it takes to get the weapons. And everyone is crying about how long it takes to unlock this shit. For one, its suppose to be difficult to do or else everyone could just get them without any skill in the class. And, it isn't that hard to get most of them. Since they lowered the number of achievements to unlock items getting all of the easy ones is enough to get most of the weapons.

[Koreish]

The real tragedy here isn't the new unlockable system it's that there isn't a sapper alternative.

[pigflipper]

Yeah, a sapper alt that turned the weapon on its own team would've been awesome!

[SnowWhiteCyanide]

At first I was super on board with the whole anti-achievement farming thing.

Then I noticed people were in servers called "achievement_idle." You can just SIT in a server and be idle and HOPE to find weapons. People will think of ANYTHING.

In happier news, I figured out how to use two sets of the KGB at once. You have to eat two sandviches at once, and then you grow another set of arms. It's epic and looks just like that picture Canti posted. I promise you.

[Myrmidon]

The Psychology of Valve

Step 1: Operant conditioning (with emphasis on successive-approximation positive reinforcement):
-Play a lot. Get achievements toward a new toy. Associate gameplay with new toy at set "achievement intervals" (press the bar 10 times, get better and better rewards leading to a Blutsauger). This is what we USED to have.

This sort of learning has been found to extinguish itself once the reward (achievements, new toy) is taken away... UNLESS it is followed by:

Step 2: Intermittent reinforcement
-After operant conditioning is done, only give reward SOMETIMES after long gameplay (Press the bar 4 to 400 times, get a Blutsauger). This is what we have now.

The combination of regular reinforcement followed by intermittent reinforcement is EXTREMELY potent in learning. Although this is in NO WAY what Valve had in mind, I think this mechanism might be to blame for why even the people who are vocal about the new changes play more than they did before.

(Really interesting background from Skinner, 1953:
-Pigeons peck a key, get food. They are conditioned this way for a while. Then, food supply is shut off. Very, very soon, pigeons stop pecking key.
-New pigeons peck a key, get food. Conditioned this way for a while. Then, food only comes every now and then with the pecked key. Pigeons will peck as much as (maybe more) ONE HUNDRED FIFTY THOUSAND TIMES to get ONE piece of food).

tl;dr: SCIENCE!

[blinnlambert]

I'm still brand new to TF2 so I came in after the update but there is one thing that really bugs the snot out of me: duplicate unlocks!!!

I have now unlocks the stupid useless boxing gloves twice now. wtf?!!

[GnomeWizardd]

I believe they did it so people v can get the new items and use them before they release NEW item packs in the future

[Koreish]

Nein, they did it because they're going to implement a trade function later so you can trade your multiples for things you don't have. See blog here (http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2535).

[Gargoyle]

This trading system sounds superfluous.

[UPSWeezer]

Played for 3 hours today. It truly is the worst ever. I only got a pair of KGBs the entire time. And I got like 15 spy achievements and still no weapons. Lame.

[MiracleManS]

Played for 3 hours today. It truly is the worst ever. I only got a pair of KGBs the entire time. And I got like 15 spy achievements and still no weapons. Lame.

If I read the blog right, they are working on making a change to allow players to influence which updates/weapons they get.

[pragtastic]

Weezer, I failed to get any sniper unlocks after ~20 achievements (including 1k kills). Not until I camped an idle server all day today have I unlocked 1 item for the sniper. It's lame for now, Valve needs to get on patching this system to something better.

[Sciz]

Fortunately I have everything but the dead ringer at this point but my briefcase is almost full. I plan on deleting some things like maybe 2 of my 6 razorbacks??? Regardless, I now have 29 sniper and 29 spy achievements. The spy I can't finish til I get dead ringer and sapping 1000 buildings is a LOT! It's still upsetting that some other people who never play spy have had the dead ringer for awhile. Just doesn't make sense to me.

[MAGIC]

i got one of the spy unlocks today(while playing medic) despite that i have no spy achievements and like 0 hours logged as spy.

[UPSWeezer]

Camped an idle server and played some for a total of about 8 hours... the only thing I got was the Dead Ringer. It's a cool toy but for as long as I played, I shouldv'e gotten way more.

[Bobby1211]

HAHA, I love that Valve seemingly made it this way to make achievement servers irrelevant, but in the process gave birth to another sick beast... the idle server.

I have received a total of 1 unlockable post update by playing 3.7 hrs in the last 2 weeks. It was the ubersaw, the only one that I didn't have that I wanted. Why do you guys hate this system so much? It gave me exactly what I wanted with minimal play time and no camping idle so it must be working perfectly [/sarcasm]

-Bobby

[Thrax]

Who needs idle servers? Pffft (http://www.sourceop.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1611&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0).

[Snarkasm]

Non-random unlocks return. (http://kotaku.com/5273095/team-fortress-2-update-adds-back-achievement-based-unlocks)

You still also get random ones, but achievements will also give you weapons.

[Sciz]

Non-random unlocks return. (http://kotaku.com/5273095/team-fortress-2-update-adds-back-achievement-based-unlocks)

You still also get random ones, but achievements will also give you weapons.

I am still missing the Dead Ringer, which is apparently nerfed to hell now anyways, but yea. I have 30 spy and 30 sniper achievements. So if they "added" the old milestone system in a weird way, it still ain't working. I can only get 3 of the 4 ach left. Apparently inside those they have the milestones so maybe I just need to try it now. Earlier the update wasn't live...maybe I will log in with my new dead ringer conisdering you only need 17 ach for milestone 3....will update in a min.

Edit: Ok, I got one kill the it spammed all over the place saying I got this and that and this and I got like 6 or 7 things at once cause I also found jarate again lol. My briefcase has 3 spots left..eek.

[UPSWeezer]

HUNTSMAN IS A-MAZING~!

[UPSWeezer]

and I jizzed in my pants

[Lincoln]

That will stain the silk.

[MiracleManS]

Non-random unlocks return. (http://kotaku.com/5273095/team-fortress-2-update-adds-back-achievement-based-unlocks)

You still also get random ones, but achievements will also give you weapons.

I feel like I was the only person who read the blog post that said this was coming.

It was like Armageddon for some people despite what the TF2 team mentioned about the system.

[UPSWeezer]

That will stain the silk.

worth it.

[Koreish]

And Kotaku provides some tasty insight as to why Vavle did this (http://kotaku.com/5220736/team-fortress-2-patch-hints-at-new-headgear-huge-gameplay-changes).

[Snarkasm]

Holy old, Captain Koreish! :p