Goin to get an SLR to learn Photography

[FelixDeSouze]

Ok guy's and gal's..

I've seen some of your pics and I like them, I've always wanted to get a decent camera such as an SLR and learn how to take awesome piccies.

I've found this deal on the Jessops websites, I'm wondering if you SLR Savvy peeps can tell me if this is worth getting :)

The link is:

http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/73523/show.html?cm_re=091009-_-Home-_-DSLR_450d

[shwaip]

I have the dslr that's 2 revisions earlier than that one, and it's serving me well.

That lens is decent, a very good starter lens.

You may want to check the used market, as you may find a good deal on that camera. I can't comment on that price, because i'm not used to your funny money.

EDIT:

The only thing you may want to consider is that the 500d (T1i) can take HD video. It's not a replacement for a camcorder (it's pretty much manual focus only while recording), but it might be a nice feature to have.

[FelixDeSouze]

I did look at that one but it doesn't come with a lense bundle and the lenses are pretty expensive, i just want something to get me started.. It's a good price as a bundle as if you bought the body of the 405D alone it would be £475'ish..

My funny money eh ;)

I don't think I'd need the HD video as I don't have a HD telly and we have Sony DSC T77 which suits the purpose of point and click which has the ability for video.

[shwaip]

There are a large number of available lenses for that camera, costing in the range of $100 - $10k (USD). The kit lens that comes with it is on the cheaper end, but as long as you make sure it's the 18-55 WITH IS (image stabilization), it has decent optical quality.

I think that camera will suit you nicely. Could you comment on what sort of pictures you're going to be looking to take?

[FelixDeSouze]

I've had a nosey on ebay and can a refurbished 450D XSI for around £350 with the lens and memory card.. So once I have the cash I think I'll go for that one, looks like they have a lot of them.

I like taking closeup pictures of things and abstract type pictures that i can not achieve with a normal camera. I also like the look of the long exposure shots which make the light trails.. But all in all, I'd take pics of anything and everything..

[Snarkasm]

Allow me to be a small voice of dissent and say that if you're trying to learn photography, perhaps starting on an SLR (even a starter SLR) may not be the best way to go. You can learn fundamentals and compose fantastic images on much cheaper equipment that won't limit you in the future if you do decide you want to pursue better equipment.

[FelixDeSouze]

Allow me to be a small voice of dissent and say that if you're trying to learn photography, perhaps starting on an SLR (even a starter SLR) may not be the best way to go. You can learn fundamentals and compose fantastic images on much cheaper equipment that won't limit you in the future if you do decide you want to pursue better equipment.

Suggestions welcome

[Snarkasm]

A G11 (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081908canong11.asp) is a great piece of kit, and I used a PowerShot S3 and S5 with the two optional attachments for a while to learn the manual controls, etc. Those are a bit old now - there may be better ones out there.

[mirage]

A G11 (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081908canong11.asp) is a great piece of kit, and I used a PowerShot S3 and S5 with the two optional attachments for a while to learn the manual controls, etc. Those are a bit old now - there may be better ones out there.

I have an EOS Rebel XS and I also want to buy a G11 because of the big bulk I carry around with an SLR.

[FelixDeSouze]

A G11 (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081908canong11.asp) is a great piece of kit, and I used a PowerShot S3 and S5 with the two optional attachments for a while to learn the manual controls, etc. Those are a bit old now - there may be better ones out there.

Not too sure I like it, I prefer the feel of the 450D (which I've used at a recent JuJitsu tournament).. I don't mind spending some money on something that is totally worth it.

[FelixDeSouze]

I have an EOS Rebel XS and I also want to buy a G11 because of the big bulk I carry around with an SLR.

Yeah the Rebel XSI is the US version of the 450D ... Same camera just a different name in that part of the world.. I really want to get it and think it's a great price at £350 refurbed with the lense and extra memory card

[mirage]

XS is little sibling of XSi and compares with 1000D

[FelixDeSouze]

XS is little sibling of XSi and compares with 1000D

Ah Gotcha, I'm happy to pay £350 for an SLR considering the price of some of them.. and I know that it will serve me well for a long time to come! :)

Show me some of ya pics with your current cam, if you don't mind? :)

[mirage]

There were a couple of pics here.

http://icrontic.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13474&page=9

[FelixDeSouze]

There were a couple of pics here.

http://icrontic.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13474&page=9

The pic links are broken mate.

[mirage]

The pic links are broken mate.
Sorry, I hope these work.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3145/summerz.th.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/i/summerz.jpg/) http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9636/wallf.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/i/wallf.jpg/) http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5741/afternoon.th.jpg (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/afternoon.jpg/)

[primesuspect]

I disagree with Snark; I suggest learning on an entry level SLR because those skills can carry you through an infinite range of more expensive equipment. Why get used to all the limitations of a P&S when you can just learn how to do SLR correctly the first time?

You can buy a 'starter' SLR like the Rebel series, and through lens upgrades have a truly professional camera; when you realize the limitations that the Rebel imposes on you, you'll be savvy enough to know what you want next.

[shwaip]

G11 gives you control over iso, aperture, shutter speed, and fits in your pocket, which should be sufficient for learning photography techniques.

However, lenses for the dslr will probably have a wider range of aperture available, allowing you to control the depth of field to a greater extent than a g11. In addition, the single lens and the smaller sensor size of the g11 will make it harder to shoot pics with a very thin depth of field - a relatively easy task with a dslr + cheap prime.

You will be able to take great pics with either. I think you might have to focus a little more on composition with the G11 as you will have a bit less control over the aperture/dof.

There are some times I'm really glad I have a dslr because of the range of photos I can take with it. However, I also wish for a G11-esque camera to take pictures of scenes that I don't have the time to tweak all the settings on my dslr.

[Snarkasm]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a starter SLR + lenses make a professional camera, which was why I mentioned it. I'd hate, as an example, to get a starter SLR, get really good with it, and then have to spend money on a new body when I've already spent this much on the starter. You're also not going to start buying L lenses for a starter SLR, so you'll get a few regular ol' lenses to shoot around with and learn, and then you'll have to sell those to buy more again.

It seems more economical to me to learn photography on a simple camera that gives you aperture/shutter speed/ISO controls and then figure out, once you decide if you like it, exactly what body and lens system you'll be happy with for a while as opposed to buying entry-level and then stepping up to the same thing later.

Just my $0.02, though. You can take great pictures with anything, as long as you love what you're shooting.

[FelixDeSouze]

Hey guys, so I went with the Rebel XSi and it's on it's way.. I paid a mere £320 for it with an IS lense and 4GB SDHC card.. The camera is furbished from Canon as new so it comes with everything including strap and manuals.

I did check for the G11 on ebay and the prices I got were approx £300 so I don't think I've spent more than I would of with your suggestion.. Not sure why it was so much but it was pretty much the same price.

I'm grateful for all of your comments and I will post a few pictures for you once I have it and play about with it...

I don't know how quickly it will arrive as our Royal Mail have decided to go on strike for 48 hours lol

[primesuspect]

You're gonna love it :D

[Mt_Goat]

I have the same camera and love it. I think you will do well. You can set things more auto for concentrating on composition and then gradually start using more manual controls beginning with aperature control for depth of field. I also had a D40 but sigh had to sell it for some cash. I do recomend getting a decent prime lens or 2 as you can afford them.

[mirage]

Felix, enjoy your new camera. That is a real nice one

[mirage]

You can take great pictures with anything, as long as you love what you're shooting.
I agree

[GHoosdum]

I just got the Rebel XS (1000D) which is very nearly the same camera, less two megapixels. I have a feeling you'll love it.

[Snarkasm]

Congrats!

[shwaip]

Pics or gtfo!

(either of the cam, or with the cam. Bonus points for both)

[FelixDeSouze]

Pics or gtfo!

(either of the cam, or with the cam. Bonus points for both)

I've just been informed that it has arrived.. So I will get pics up when I've played with it.. I've also got my Windows 7 to install tonight, so I'll do a double wammy and take some pics of setting up my Windows 7!! lol..

Can't wait to get playing with it.. Especially over the weekend when I have more time

One word... WOOP!

[FelixDeSouze]

So the camera came yesterday and I am more than impressed with it.. It was brand new and only labelled as refurbished because of the box.

I played about with it last night and I've figured out how to use all of the settings.. I'm obviously no good at it yet!!

I took some piccies of the HMS Illustrious and some of the choppers that are at the Liverpool dock (10m from where I work).

Here are my first attempts with the camera.. lol

NOTE: I have changed these images in any way yet and my kit lense cannot get close enough to do anything funky ;)

[GHoosdum]

The chopper pic looks almost hyperrealistic, as if it were rendered. So cool!

[FelixDeSouze]

The chopper pic looks almost hyperrealistic, as if it were rendered. So cool!

So it does!! I haven't even edited anything on it as I've got to reinstall photoshop as I've just stuck Windows 7 on my lappy

[Soundy]

Hey folks, coming into the discussion a bit late, but wanted to share a couple thoughts and advice...

First and foremost, if you're looking for a camera, find something that YOU enjoy using! At any given price/feature level, just about anything you pick up with give you the same quality pictures, and 99% of people would never be able to tell what camera you used just by looking at the pictures.

The Canon vs. Nikon vs. whatever debates can go on forever, but the reality is, the BEST camera is the one that GETS USED, and the most important thing to make sure that happens is that YOU are comfortable using the camera. There's a wide range in any segment, of size, weight, feel, ergonomics, menus, operation... narrow your choice to two or three models in your price range and/or with the features you want, then GO TO A BRICK-AND-MORTAR STORE, and handle them all. Work with them, play with them, navigate the menus and settings and options... the camera that is fun and easy FOR YOU to use is far less likely to sit on a shelf collecting dust, where all the debating and minutiae in the world means absolutely nothing. Remember, nobody else can tell you what YOU will be most comfortable with!

Wanted to comment on this as well:

Allow me to be a small voice of dissent and say that if you're trying to learn photography, perhaps starting on an SLR (even a starter SLR) may not be the best way to go. You can learn fundamentals and compose fantastic images on much cheaper equipment that won't limit you in the future if you do decide you want to pursue better equipment.

One thing that very, very few P&S cameras will do is allow manual focus (and those that do, it's often electronically-controlled which severely limits its effectiveness). If you really want to LEARN photography, IMHO, the ability to focus manually WILL be important to you, usually sooner rather than later. And the "real" view through the SLR's optical viewfinder simply can't be matched with a P&S's electronic viewfinder.

Also,

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a starter SLR + lenses make a professional camera, which was why I mentioned it. I'd hate, as an example, to get a starter SLR, get really good with it, and then have to spend money on a new body when I've already spent this much on the starter. You're also not going to start buying L lenses for a starter SLR, so you'll get a few regular ol' lenses to shoot around with and learn, and then you'll have to sell those to buy more again.

Actually, going budget on the body and spending a bit more on a quality lens or two is a great way to start. DSLR bodies (and P&S cameras, for that matter) will become obsolete quickly, but a good lens will be a good lens for a very long time. As your skills improve and needs expand, you can upgrade your body, and not have to worry about replacing your lenses as well. Often, you can pick up a last-generation body for cheap as newer models are released, but the same rarely holds true with lenses.

And at the end of the experiment, if you decide photography isn't for you, a quality lens will retain its resale value a LOT better than a higher-level body and cheap lens. I recently sold off my Digital Rebel 300D with its kit lens, a battery grip, and a camera bag for a whopping $300... all that cost me over $1400 when I got it five years ago - now that's depreciation! Meantime, if I'd bought, say, a 70-210 f/2.8L lens back then, I could resell that today for very little depreciation, because it's still a great lens, and lens optical technology really hasn't changed that much in the past hundred years or so. All that's really changed with newer lenses is the addition of "extras" like IS and USM, but even without those "goodies", the older lens will still take stunning photos (assuming it hasn't been abused).

[Snarkasm]

My point was exactly what you ended with. If you buy a starter SLR and a starter lens, you're not going to get retail out of it on resale, and you're still going to end up buying a better body and higher-quality lenses if you decide to stay with photography. That was exactly my point. You could spend $500 on a cheap SLR and $80 on the kit lens and just end up upgrading to a 50D and a 24-70L, or you could start with a prosumer P&S for $250-300, learn your fundamentals, and jump to the 50D/24-70 when you're ready, and you've saved $300.

And many of the prosumers I've used (S2, S3IS, S5) had manual focus - they didn't have the ring, but you'd hit a button and adjust focus using a d-pad from x to infinity.

It doesn't matter, because Felix has his camera and is taking great pictures with it, but your logic was exactly my point. Nobody's going to start getting into photography with a 300D and a 70-200 f/2.8L - the lens is worth 6 times the body. In other words, you'll still have to upgrade.

/moot point :p

[Soundy]

It doesn't matter, because Felix has his camera and is taking great pictures with it, but your logic was exactly my point. Nobody's going to start getting into photography with a 300D and a 70-200 f/2.8L - the lens is worth 6 times the body.

And yet I know people who have. This is common advice on a number of photography forums I frequent.

In other words, you'll still have to upgrade.

Yes... regardless of what CAMERA you get, whether SLR or P&S, it will quickly be obsolete and if you're serious about it, you'll probably WANT (not HAVE) to upgrade sooner than later.

A good lens doesn't become obsolete. It's will hold its value and quality. It's a good investment, and thus a good place to start if you're new to photography.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing Felix's pictures with his new toy!

[FelixDeSouze]

Thanks for jumping in on the conversation Soundy, very sound advice.. And yes, this was pretty much the only SLR camera I had used before choosing to buy it. I do find it confortable to use and very easy to remember where everything is. I'm loving every minute of it so far and the fun doesn't finish with taking the pictures but editing them to be more clear.. A new thing I have found is HDR images.. However, the ones I have taken are all from Dublin and it was a pretty dull day.. On a nice day I'm sure I will get some stunning pictures.

Some of my fav's are uploaded to flickr.... www.flickr.com/photos/felixdesouze

Let me know what you think :)

[Soundy]

You're lucky, you missed the "peak" of the HDR craze, when everybody and his dog was doing it to every picture they took and just cranking out horrible stuff. :)

Some nice pics there. Some of the HDRs do seem a bit over-done for my liking - remember, the main purpose of HDR is to show dynamic range that our eyes see but the camera can't fully capture. Which is not to say it can't be overdone intentionally for effect, but some stuff there just looks... unnatural. The second (tighter) Dublin River one, for example, looks really plastic, while the wider one isn't so bad.

Same thing on the Kilmainham courtyard - you can see how the effect has left a glow along the edge of the wall. It looks neat, something that might be used in a movie dream sequence perhaps (check out the dream/hallucination scenes in Gladiator), but again, feels really unnatural.

But that's my main... critique, I guess, is the right word. Got some nice framing and good subjects going on, just a little overdone on some of the HDR processing.

Glad you're liking the XSi!

[FelixDeSouze]

Yeah the ones look overdone are overdone intentionally, we just liked the look of them. It was a dull day so we couldn't ge the true desired effect so went for that one instead :)

[heyjoshdotnet]

I like your use of HDR, it's a good application. Sky shots are always good to under-expose a little so that you get some detail in the clouds and stuff. But when you do that, you start to lose the ground objects to silhouette. Expose for the ground, and the sky gets washed out. HDR lets you expose for both, as you demonstrate in the Dublin church shot:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/felixdesouze/4081484124/

I wouldn't worry about it being overdone at all. Accurate exposure of multiple divergent brightness levels is the whole point of HDR. If anything, I might have pushed the sky even brighter. Like Soundy says, it's about getting the range out of the camera that your eyes+brain get naturally.

[FelixDeSouze]

Ah, is that you who has added that one as a favourite? And thanks :) -- Still learning with it all and loving every minute of it so far.