Perspective: The Radeon HD 5870 vs the FirePro V8750

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UPSLynx

The Dean of Computer Graphics

2,138 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 5:35pm

Perspective: The Radeon HD 5870 vs the FirePro V8750

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Winfrey

kaishakunin

1,859 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 5:45pm

Wow! I can understand the premium people are willing to pay for workstation GPUs. When it comes to 3D art and content creation the FirePro is in a league of its own.

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Jon

Guest

5 Nov 2009, 5:53pm

The more interesting question is WHERE is the big performance difference coming from? Is it just the extra memory, or even just driver tweaks?

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Thrax

Cad

23,405 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 5:55pm

Jon: We have a complete writeup on the way in the next week, with videos of ATI reps & engineers, explaining just that. Stay tuned!

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Jason404

Guest

5 Nov 2009, 5:59pm

That's a pretty stupid article, as it does not even mention that the FirePro has special optimised drivers for those prgrams. The certified drivers are exactly what you are paying for when you buy a FirePro/Quadro. The hardware itself is the same as the reference designs for the equivalent Radeon/GeForce cards.

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Butters

Phat Rat

215 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 6:04pm

Intersting results. It would interesting to see how a Quadro FX 4800 compares.

Also, in the mention writeup, will it also show the V8750 running 3Mark and other "game" related benches to see the inverse side of things.

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Thrax

Cad

23,405 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 6:05pm

No, the hardware is not the same. That is where you're entirely wrong. There are chip and board-level optimizations made to FirePro cores, and driver R&D is only a small portion of the total cost. Certified hardware support, application support, and DCC app R&D plays a significantly larger portion of the overall cost.

Have the courtesy to know what the facts are before putting your fingers on the keyboard.

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Thrax

Cad

23,405 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 6:07pm

Quoting Butters

Intersting results. It would interesting to see how a Quadro FX 4800 compares.

Also, in the mention writeup, will it also show the V8750 running 3Mark and other "game" related benches to see the inverse side of things.

The original V8750 review includes a few game references, but nothing on a chart. Suffice it to say, the V8750 is just barely playable in Team Fortress 2. It gets stomped by the 8800 GTX.

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Jason404

Guest

5 Nov 2009, 6:13pm

I have a couple of FireGL and Quadro cards that are physically exactly the same as equivalent Radeons and Quadros. I looked at pictures of the reference models made by ATi and PNY and saw no difference. The article does not mention the optimised drivers which is what makes the cards so much faster. I do not see any improvement at all when using apps that do not have certified drivers (eg. ArchiCAD). I have never owned a FirePro, but from what I can see, the drivers are what the makes such a difference.

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Thrax

Cad

23,405 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 6:23pm

No, it doesn't mention that because we are preparing a separate article which explores and explains the differences. It's pretty silly to even talk about the drivers when the thesis question is "What happens?" not "Why is it happening?"

It's a basic case of serving the curiosities and questions of our readers.

But I can tell you, the FirePro V8750 and the Radeon HD 4870, which are both based on the RV770XT core, are not physically the same.

That's straight from ATI's mouth, and they courteously let us tape the session, which will be a part of the "Why?" article we're preparing.

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UPSLynx

The Dean of Computer Graphics

2,138 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 6:43pm

Jason - if you click on the link to the original v8750 piece, it does in fact go into a little more detail on WHY the two types are different.

Re-stating it for the sake of an article that was meant to showcase performance between ultra-high-end and ultra-high-end would have been a bit needless.

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mertesn

Icrontic Duke of Haxor

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5 Nov 2009, 7:00pm

Quoting Jason404

The certified drivers are exactly what you are paying for when you buy a FirePro/Quadro.

Really? Because I just downloaded them for FREE at AMD's web site.

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Jason404

Guest

5 Nov 2009, 7:20pm

@Thrax
When you say that the Radeon HD 4870 is physically different to the FirePro V8750, are you sure that you are using a reference design from ATi as comparison, and not one from a thrid party manufacturer? I look forward to this article, but I would be sceptical to what the ATi marketing department are telling you. They have to get the money to develop the drivers and would not want people to use them by softmodding.

@Bobby
In your previous article you said "PC gaming isn’t impossible on the FirePro V8750, but it certainly isn’t ideal, and it is hardly the task that this GPU was designed for.". Sorry, but this is a fail-statement. The GPU is the same, (and I still all the hardware is too). It is very expensive to develop GPUs, and they are not going to make a special version for such a limited market. It already costs a lot to develop the special drivers.

@mertesn
I had to laugh. You really cannot be that dumb.

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primesuspect

The Icrontic Guy

27,798 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 7:24pm

Jason, if it was so simple as driver optimizations, why wouldn't AMD just let gamers play games on the FirePro series? They're "the same" after all, right? I mean, just tell the driver to go into "game mode" or whatever, right?

It's not so simple, my friend. Where are you getting your "facts" from?

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UPSLynx

The Dean of Computer Graphics

2,138 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 7:37pm

Quoting Jason404

@Bobby
In your previous article you said "PC gaming isn’t impossible on the FirePro V8750, but it certainly isn’t ideal, and it is hardly the task that this GPU was designed for.". Sorry, but this is a fail-statement. The GPU is the same, (and I still all the hardware is too).

Fail-statement? Do you realize what you just said? Even at a driver level, FirePro GPUs are STILL not designed for gaming. Trust me, ATI does not develop this hardware so people can softmod. Not to mention, a soft-modded v8750 will STILL not compare in numbers to it's desktop counterpart. Why? Because at a hardware level, like it or not, they are in fact, different.

Quoting Jason404

It is very expensive to develop GPUs, and they are not going to make a special version for such a limited market. It already costs a lot to develop the special drivers.

Limited market? Are you serious? Do you even understand how many studios that are in this country, heck, in California alone, that have copious workstations for animators, modelers, artists, that are all powered by workstation GPUs? There is no 'small market' for workstation GPUs. And this hardware isn't limited to animation and VFX studios. Television studios, military, medical imaging (which is one of the biggest industries for graphics today), architecture and machining firms all rely on workstation hardware. The enthusiast GPU market is huge, but I'm willing to bet that the workstation GPU market is not far behind.

They make money. Oh, yes, they do. It makes workstation GPU development a worthy cause. Studios are replacing hardware regularly. The film industry is still seeing a boom, and studios are still sprouting up all over. They're selling units, and trust me, they have every reason to manufacture a seperate piece of hardware for this market.

Oh, and leave Mert alone! He's a good guy.

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Butters

Phat Rat

215 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 7:48pm

Supposing the cards have major differences. Perhaps someone can volunteer their 8800 and softmod it. It would have less ram than the Quadro counterpart, but what would happen?

http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=539

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Butters edited : 5 Nov 2009 at 8:00pm . Reason: changed subtle to major.. subtly not typing what i'm thinking

primesuspect

The Icrontic Guy

27,798 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 7:56pm

Content creation is not the only market for workstation cards, Jason.

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mirage

Veteran Icrontian

1,026 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 8:04pm

Nice article and very informative, thanks!

The discussion about hacking/modding a gaming card into a professional is so unnecessary and irrelevant. I tried softmodding before and it is so problematic that buying a professional card for professional work and gaming card for gaming is the best solution. The manufacturer will always say the hardware is different, hackers will say they are the same. Whatever is correct, softmod is never as good as the real card. Try updating your drivers and be ready for suprises in every version of the driver and software. If you are a professional whose time is really valuable, FireGL/Pro/Stream or Quadro is the only solution *PERIOD*

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Jason404

Guest

5 Nov 2009, 8:10pm

@primesuspect
I am an architect (just loving this recession), and have been using workstation cards for over a decade. Once I moved from using 3DLabs cards to FireGL I realised that the hardware was the same by taking the HSF off and looking at the reference designs. As a CAD consultant, I have made purchase decisions for dozens of FireGL and Quadro cards.

The workstation cards do not perform as well in games, as even with the default driver (and not the optimised ones for certain apps), the driver sacrifices frame rates for accuracy. It is okay for games to show glitches and artefacts, but not when modelling in 3D apps.

@Bobby
Of course on the driver level FirePros are not designed for gaming. GPU means Graphics Processing Unit. The RT770XT in this case. I do not want to seem condescending, but your comment does seem to make any sense unless you do not know this. Also, the GPUs are the same. They are exactly the same, and that is what essentially makes a graphics card. This is the part that is sold to other companies to make their Radeon cards. They do not make special GPUs for the workstation market. If the workstation cards differ, it is in minor areas. They used to differ in areas like the DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter - 3DLabs cards had very good DACs) but that is not so important these days.

I know that workstation cards sell in high numbers. I used to work at a firm that bought them by the hundreds, but it is still very small compared to the gaming market. I remember reading an article just about this very subject a few years ago. I think it might have been at Anandtech.

Guys, it's all about the GPUs, and it is all about the drivers. The hardware is either exactly the same, or essentially the same.

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ReD-SpideR

New to the neighborhood

2 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 8:42pm

Quoting Thrax

Have the courtesy to know what the facts are before putting your fingers on the keyboard.

Way to tell him what to do, you're his Mommy I take it?

Have the common sense to know that the facts are some people don't always know everything fully, unless there taught/told/or research - mind you they don't have to research a subject entirely to comment, hence the a discussion thread.

He may lack courtesy, but you the common sense.

Ignorance is shown most by the expectations of those who claim to know more then others.

/Rant

\Topic

Thank you for the wonderful and insightful last few articles you've put up, I really appreciate them. But the lingering question in my mind, even though they are not targeted at the same level, Will we be seeing a comparison of the ATI FirePro V8750 vs NVIDIA Quadro FX 5800? and if I'm not mistaken, it was mentioned that they may be a small Gaming benchmark, just for kicks?

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pragtastic

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5 Nov 2009, 8:45pm

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Thrax

Cad

23,405 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 8:46pm

Quoting ReD-SpideR

Have the common sense to know that the facts are some people don't always know everything fully, unless there taught/told/or research - mind you they don't have to research a subject entirely to comment, hence the a discussion thread.

Defaming the content of an author's hard work based on ignorance or blatant mistruths is a pretty poor way to spur discussion or perform research.

I do, however, appreciate that you took the time to register and comment. Thank you. Seriously.

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QCH

Guru

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5 Nov 2009, 8:51pm

Quoting ReD-SpideR

Thank you for the wonderful and insightful last few articles you've put up, I really appreciate them. But the lingering question in my mind, even though they are not targeted at the same level, Will we be seeing a comparison of the ATI FirePro V8750 vs NVIDIA Quadro FX 5800? and if I'm not mistaken, it was mentioned that they may be a small Gaming benchmark, just for kicks?

You just wait....

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UPSLynx

The Dean of Computer Graphics

2,138 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 9:56pm

Quoting Jason404

@Bobby
Of course on the driver level FirePros are not designed for gaming. GPU means Graphics Processing Unit. The RT770XT in this case. I do not want to seem condescending, but your comment does seem to make any sense unless you do not know this. Also, the GPUs are the same. They are exactly the same, and that is what essentially makes a graphics card. This is the part that is sold to other companies to make their Radeon cards. They do not make special GPUs for the workstation market. If the workstation cards differ, it is in minor areas. They used to differ in areas like the DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter - 3DLabs cards had very good DACs) but that is not so important these days.

I know that workstation cards sell in high numbers. I used to work at a firm that bought them by the hundreds, but it is still very small compared to the gaming market. I remember reading an article just about this very subject a few years ago. I think it might have been at Anandtech.

Guys, it's all about the GPUs, and it is all about the drivers. The hardware is either exactly the same, or essentially the same.

So if you've softmodded yourself, then you know that the performance is not that of an acutal Radeon with the "same" hardware.

If that was in fact true, it still wouldn't matter. Professional studios would not have time or capacity to deal with the troublesome modding, driver updates, and unreliable performance that comes from softmodding. It doesn't make sense for any professional outlet to take such a risk to cut a corner when they can buy a legitimate card that's built for them.

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Cliff_Forster

Keepin it real

852 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 10:02pm

I'm just curious. What are the architectural differences in the hardware? Is there a good architecture blueprint for each design that explains the hardware optimizations from one to the next?

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RyderOCZ

OCZ Guru / IC Groupie

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5 Nov 2009, 10:11pm

Quoting Thrax

But I can tell you, the FirePro V8750 and the Radeon HD 4870, which are both based on the RV770XT core, are not physically the same.

That's straight from ATI's mouth, and they courteously let us tape the session, which will be a part of the "Why?" article we're preparing.

Let me leave this here

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Butters

Phat Rat

215 Posts

5 Nov 2009, 11:45pm

Its "fascinating" how polarizing the results are with consumer vs workstation graphics cards. I hope the writeup digs deep into both hardware and driver differences. I'm not expecting any type of schematic, but when its that drastic of a difference in performance with arguable hardware differences, flags have to be raised. I'll be patiently waiting.

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_k_

deep in the bush

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6 Nov 2009, 12:53am

If they are the same card then why doesn't one of you flash your firepro with a radeon bios, since they are the same it will work. Just sayin.

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ReD-SpideR

New to the neighborhood

2 Posts

6 Nov 2009, 12:59am

Quoting _k_

If they are the same card then why doesn't one of you flash your firepro with a radeon bios, since they are the same it will work. Just sayin.

If. Which apparently, They are not psychically the same? We'll just sit tight and wait for the interview and figure out if the interviewee is telling the truth.

I'm more eager to see the FirePro up against the latest Quadro. and the gaming benchmarks against gaming/workstations as well.

I have the dream that most people in my business have, to be able to work on their 3D models and then be able to play the game there intended on for debugging and testing without the need to swap out cards or use a different machine... but then again... there would be no market in that now would there.

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chrisWhite

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6 Nov 2009, 1:04am

I think historically the workstation cards vs consumer cards have often been very similar in hardware. I remember when people were modding the drivers on consumer GPU's to "soft-quadro" their cards. It seems pretty clear that this is no longer the case, but does it really make that big of a difference in the end? nvidia and AMD are selling different products to two different markets that have been engineered and optimized to do two different things, if a lot of that is happening at a driver level then that does not illegitimatize the differences in my opinion.

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chrisWhite

Polygons

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6 Nov 2009, 1:06am

Quoting ReD-SpideR

I'm more eager to see the FirePro up against the latest Quadro. and the gaming benchmarks against gaming/workstations as well.

Hmmm, I have a feeling the crew has thought about that.

I do think this is a very interesting comparison though because a lot of people don't understand the differences between workstation and gaming cards and performance. I find the article and the benchmarks very valuable in making the comparison.

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johnfoster

Guest

6 Nov 2009, 2:04am

fair is fair. where is the Doom vs Doom benchmark. but I kid...

one thing to remember is that the cost of the card is immaterial compared to the cost of the people running the hardware. if the artist is waiting for screen re-draws that's productivity lost. and if you don't run the settings at most most and instead focus on snap snap you've taken a frustrating part of the jorb (waiting) and made it a non-issue.

the thing in working with creatives is keeping the bitch factor low. if that means buying them new hardware every nine months so they are happy that's cheaper than higher new knobs because the old stars quit. the new MacBook Pro may cost $2500 but that's cheap comparatively. especially given that the now happy the artist cranks after installing the new.

you do have to be careful about performance. the writer for example has different needs. he doesn't need FPS to be creative. in fact we don't even need hardware to keep that guy going. that same $1600 buys lots of beer, steaks and cigars which will keep that guy writing for months without complaining.

(moderator: sorry, I've never ever meet a writer that didn't complain…)

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primesuspect

The Icrontic Guy

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6 Nov 2009, 2:06am

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Anand

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6 Nov 2009, 8:10am

I have a question . What if you compare this 400 dollar 5870 to a workstation card that has a 400 dollar price point. Studios might not have an issue with going fr a 1800 card. But someone like me who is just starting to freelance 1800 is to big. So i would like to see thae same test done with a card theat has the same price point as 5870 and probably one that has the same price point as 4890 the card i have right now

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chrisWhite

Polygons

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6 Nov 2009, 3:39pm

That's a good question Anand, I'm not sure what the answer is but I'd tend to go with the gaming card over a super cheap workstation card, I think you'll get a lot more bang for your buck. For one thing you'll be getting a lot less on-board memory on the card and, at least with the Quadro's I've used, a lot less reliability. I'm not the expert around here though and I don't have experience with AMD workstation cards.

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Gargoyle

We can't stop here...

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7 Nov 2009, 2:12am

Quoting Anand

What if you compare this 400 dollar 5870 to a workstation card that has a 400 dollar price point.

That's a review I'd really like to see, since that's more like the choice I'd have to make if I decide to delve into more 3D work. I don't think a $2000 card is ever going to be in my budget.

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UPSLynx

The Dean of Computer Graphics

2,138 Posts

7 Nov 2009, 3:07am

You guys mean like a Quadro 3800 series workstation GPU?

Which happens to be enroute to our test bench as we speak.

Oh, you'll have the numbers you hunger for.

Also, John Foster, you always have the right words for any occasion. Though I am a write who is also a 3D artist, so I am one of the few who needs that extra umf.

But I certainly know how to complain, and beer shuts me up, so yes, you nailed it.

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Gargoyle

We can't stop here...

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7 Nov 2009, 3:24am

Quoting UPSLynx

You guys mean like a Quadro 3800 series workstation GPU?

Oh yeah, I'd like to see that, but I'd still like to see something cheaper, too.

Check out the variation in the $400 - $500 range on Newegg.

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Anand

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7 Nov 2009, 2:49pm

A quadro 3800 would be nice if it falls in the range. Another comparison would be a Ati 5850 and a quadro 17 or 1800. I tihnk they fall in the same place.

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chrisWhite

Polygons

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7 Nov 2009, 10:26pm

Note to NVIDIA and AMD, we would like to test your full line of workstation cards

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ecthelionv

Guest

10 Nov 2009, 12:59am

I have a nice gaming rig with a Radeon HD 4870. I was thinking about buying a workstation card because my video card causes SolidWorks to crash all the time. I don't really want to build a separate workstation PC. Can I use both cards at the same time in one rig? Or would I have swap the cards each time I wanted to play a game or use SolidWorks?

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UPSLynx

The Dean of Computer Graphics

2,138 Posts

10 Nov 2009, 1:29am

Ecthelionv, you would have to swap the hardware in and out depending on what you want to do. As far as I know, there is no other method of doing it. I keep the desktop card installed most of the time, and swapping to the FirePro isn't too bad with a tool-less chassis.

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chrisWhite

Polygons

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10 Nov 2009, 2:01am

Until he zaps the FirePro and kills it one of these days

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UPSLynx

The Dean of Computer Graphics

2,138 Posts

10 Nov 2009, 2:12am

Quoting chrisWhite

Until he zaps the FirePro and kills it one of these days

I turn the thing off and unplug it man! come on, what kind of barbarian do you think I am?!

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Gargoyle

We can't stop here...

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10 Nov 2009, 2:16am

Quoting UPSLynx

Ecthelionv, you would have to swap the hardware in and out depending on what you want to do. As far as I know, there is no other method of doing it. I keep the desktop card installed most of the time, and swapping to the FirePro isn't too bad with a tool-less chassis.

What if you have two monitors? Would the card attached to each monitor behave as expected? Or is that a maybe/sometimes kind of thing?

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_k_

deep in the bush

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10 Nov 2009, 2:52am

Driver issue. Both use an ATI driver and most likely that will cause major issues with the system not knowing which driver goes to which card. If you plan to do that I would shoot for a Quadro because you can get drivers from both companies to co-habitat.

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Dare

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121 Posts

10 Nov 2009, 6:43pm

Great breakdown.

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chrisWhite

Polygons

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10 Nov 2009, 8:39pm

Quoting UPSLynx

I turn the thing off and unplug it man! come on, what kind of barbarian do you think I am?!

Trust me, being unplugged does not mean you're not going to zap it with a little static electricity, I'm not too paranoid about it (though I have been through mandatory electrostatic discharge training) but rotating the cards in and out all the time have to increase your chances.

Really hoping the oven works

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Thrax

Cad

23,405 Posts

10 Nov 2009, 8:43pm

It worked.

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chrisWhite

Polygons

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10 Nov 2009, 8:57pm

Wooooohoooo.

I wonder if I should try baking my three 7800GT cards that are all on the fritz. Can you kill your card this way?

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Tags: ati, firepro

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