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profdlp
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profdlp
21,407 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 1:56am

Question SB Live! 5.1 Question

I have a SB Live! Value in an Abit KT7A-Raid. I have fought the infamous "crackling" issue over the years (98se = no problem, Win2K = horrible, XPpro = minor).

I have recently gotten hold of a SB Live! 5.1 card (three of them, actually). Would it be worth my while to swap them out? Would it be likely that the "crackling" would diminish (or vanish!)? Would I notice any sound quality improvement?

The problem is so minor at this point (only very slight and infrequent crackling) that I wouldn't normally bother, but since I have the 5.1 just sitting here I thought...


Prof
PS: I have two sets of speakers (four channels with two subwoofers, non-digital, but fairly high quality) in use at the moment.
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SimGuy
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SimGuy
2,049 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 2:03am
It really can't hurt to swap the cards. I'd make sure you install the latest available drivers for the cards (god almighty, the Windows XP default drivers for the Live suck mighty hard).

If it gets worse, stick your old card back in
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profdlp
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profdlp
21,407 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 2:16am

Unhappy I feel dumb...(again)

I left out a piece of crucial information -

Nearly every time I reinstall Creative's drivers I lose my rear channels. I've done all of the obvious things, like checking that four-speaker is set in Control Panel, etc. I usually lose the Creative Audio HQ, too, and end up having to fiddle around with the whole driver setup to get everything back.

What is the principle difference between the Value and the 5.1 cards?


Prof
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SimGuy
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SimGuy
2,049 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 3:51am

Re: I feel dumb...(again)

profdlp said
I left out a piece of crucial information -

Nearly every time I reinstall Creative's drivers I lose my rear channels. I've done all of the obvious things, like checking that four-speaker is set in Control Panel, etc. I usually lose the Creative Audio HQ, too, and end up having to fiddle around with the whole driver setup to get everything back.

What is the principle difference between the Value and the 5.1 cards?


Prof
The value is a 4.1 card designed to give the EMU10K1 audio processing unit (APU) a home to the value-minded customer, bringing EAX, 4.1 surround sound and an integrated driver package (LiveWare) to the masses.

The Live 5.1 brings both EAX, an integrated driver package, gold-plated jacks and 5.1 surround sound to the masses. There's the difference. Same EMU10K1 APU onboard.
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Spinner
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Spinner
5,003 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 3:58am
As most people understand and acknowledge, 90% of all of the SBLIVE cards in existence are very similar, almost identical in the majority of cases. However... the SoundBlaster Live! Value cards were the very first in a long line of SBLIVE named cards. These little puppies in some respects are very different to the cards we now refer to as the SBLIVE (as Simguy kindly explained), which in most cases we mean the 1024, or the 5.1 or the Gamer, for example.

The Value cards driver sets should also be considered quite different, so swapping a SBLIVE! Value, for a SBLIVE 5.1, would be a well worthwhile endeavour.

With a 5.1 card in your system, and on that motherboard, you should be able now to get a crackle free runtime from it.

Once you've swapped the cards over, check out the SB LIVE drivers section in the Downloads thread, here at Short-Media. As I've put a few drivers in there that you can't get direct from Creative, which you can use if the ones direct from Creative still give you problems.

Cheers

SPINNER
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Spinner edited : 6 Aug 2003 at 4:07am .
SimGuy
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SimGuy
2,049 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 4:06am
Spinner said
As most people understand and acknowledge, 90% of all of the SBLIVE cards in existence are very similar, almost identical in the majority of cases. However... the SoundBlaster Live! Value cards were the very first in a long line of SBLIVE named cards. These little puppies in some respects are very different to the cards we now refer to as the SBLIVE, which in most cases we mean the 1024, or the 5.1 or the Gamer, for example.

The Value cards driver sets are also relatively different, so swapping a SBLIVE! Value, for a SBLIVE 5.1, would be a well worthwhile endeavour.

With a 5.1 card in your system, and on that motherboard, you should be able now to get a crackle free runtime from it.

Once you've swapped the cards over, check out the SB LIVE drivers section in the Downloads thread, here at Short-Media. As I've put a few drivers in there that you can't get direct from Creative, which you can use if the ones direct from Creative still give you problems.

Cheers

SPINNER
Did Creative make hardware changes to the EMU10K1 chip on the SB Live 5.1's that make them superior to the original Live & Live Value's?
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profdlp
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profdlp
21,407 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 4:17am

Thanks!

I guess the only way to find out for sure is to give it a shot. I'll do that in a day or two.

I'm not an electronic theorician, but it seems there's a possibility that, even with the same chip driving it, there could be other components on the card which could make a difference.

I probably wouldn't fool with it if it wasn't for the fact that I had three of the 5.1's given to me, and they've been sitting in a box on my test bench giving me a "come hither" look for the past few weeks.

One other thing, which touches on some of what Spinner said, is that my particular SB Live! was purchased when they first came out. There may have been some subtle modifications which could make a difference. If I was still running Win2K I wouldn't even have asked - the crackling was so bad with it that I quit listening to mp3's on it, unless I was doing something which didn't involve moving the mouse at all. Mouse motion seemed to be the biggest guarantor of trouble. XP has been much better.

Stay tuned - I'll let you know how it comes out after I do the ol' switcheroo.


Prof

Thanks Guys!
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Spinner
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Spinner
5,003 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 4:17am
SimGuy said


Did Creative make hardware changes to the EMU10K1 chip on the SB Live 5.1's that make them superior to the original Live & Live Value's?
In my experience, and my understanding, which I might add, I can't 100% assure is bible, the SB LIVE Value, did contain significantly different hardware processing centres onboard than the more popular and widely used second generation Sound Blaster Live line of cards, e.g all other SB Live cards which don't carry the additional 'Value' tag on the end (with the exception of the full sister version of the original Value card, the one with the extra back plate, todays SB LIVE Platinum equivalent).

I honestly can't recall whether or not there were two different original Value models or just the one, but I am pretty sure that the very first, (the card which had that stupid orchestral conductor plastered all over the packaging) is considerably inferior and different to the more modern line of SB Live cards.

I own a SB Live Value (1st Generation) and a SB Live 1024 (which isn't 5.1 compatible) and it is very obvious they are very different beasts. I wish I had them both here with me now, so I could see what APU version they both carry, but unfortunatley I haven't.

But like I said, what I have stated is simply what I have always considered to be correct, I can't really back it up with factual references. I shall try and look into it further nevertheless. You may very well be correct Simguy, but like Prof' said, other factors may drastically set later models apart from the original one.
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Spinner edited : 6 Aug 2003 at 4:26am .
Spinner
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Spinner
5,003 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 5:03am
The boards have been somewhat revised and feature a new thinner version of the EMU10K1 that was already starting to show up on some of the previous editions of Live boards
http://3dsoundsurge.com

After doing a quick search around the NET, I find an annoying lack of information regarding SB Live model comparisons, but as the above quote indicates, I believe the EMU10K1 may indeed have been revised for the later versions of the SB Live.

However, reading through spec lists of various models, it becomes evident that the original SB Live, (called) the 'Value' and its previously mentioned full retail equivalent, were indeed considerably different to later versions. For example, the original SB Live only had a 512 voice creation ability, where as the 1024 and above line of cards have 1024 voice creation abilities. Also, the added Dolby 5.1 specification also adds a new feature and the fact that its engine is actually software based indicates that even though it still used the EMU10K1 APU, it kind of bypassed it for certain operations.

So I think in all honesty, myself, Simguy and Prof' are all in fact correct in what we/they/you have stated. All SB Lives as Simguy said appear to carry the EMU10K1 APU, but it seems there have been revised versions, without it seems a actual name change to the chip, and in addition like Prof' suggested and I just explained, the SB Lives generational development would appear to be of a significantly drastic nature, even though still utilising the same and original chip. I believe this was done through various other hardware updates as well as the developmental aspects being supported by advances in the driver and software architecture.

So in short.... I've got a headache... no I mean...

All the SB Live cards have essentially the same brain, but the original cards have significantly different bodies holding it all together. If you understand my analogy.

Is the above a load of crap? probably!

So in a nutshell... upgrade Prof' you silly billy, and stop making me and Simguy argue! I love him too damb much for this to continue.



SPINNER
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Spinner edited : 6 Aug 2003 at 5:11am .
Thrax
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Thrax
23,417 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 5:06am
And despite all the differences (Or lack thereof) only the two important things remain the same:

1. Creative cards suck.
2. So do the drivers.
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Spinner
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Spinner
5,003 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 5:08am
Thrax said
And despite all the differences (Or lack thereof) only the two important things remain the same:

1. Creative cards suck.
2. So do the drivers.
You'll get no argument from me about that.
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profdlp
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profdlp
21,407 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 5:27am

Thankee

After my extended saga with the Creative/Via combo I have firmly decided that my new system (hopefully in the next month or two) will contain neither.

I'm not sure exactly who to blame, so they're both gettin' the axe.


Prof
(And you boys shouldn't fight. I would prefer that you not "kiss and make up", though... )
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Spinner
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Spinner
5,003 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 6:27am

Re: Thankee

profdlp said

(And you boys shouldn't fight. I would prefer that you not "kiss and make up", though... )
* Spinner can't contain his disappointment.
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bothered
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bothered
4,548 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 7:56am
I've heard about this crackle live cards have but have never had it with mine. Both my PCs have live player 5.1 cards, both work very well. In 'my' PC I have used it with a KT7, KT7a Raid and a KX7 ( all with AMD and XP) with no problem. I did have the 'lost audio hq' thing but that was before Creative released xp drivers, Got them and everything is fine.

bothered.
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Spinner
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Spinner
5,003 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 8:11am
bothered said
I've heard about this crackle live cards have but have never had it with mine. Both my PCs have live player 5.1 cards, both work very well. In 'my' PC I have used it with a KT7, KT7a Raid and a KX7 ( all with AMD and XP) with no problem. I did have the 'lost audio hq' thing but that was before Creative released xp drivers, Got them and everything is fine.

bothered.
The majority of issues which the SB Live have, especially the issues surrounding the card and VIA chipsets, specificially the KT133 chipset, have now been resolved, by both VIA and Creative's driver releases.

That's not to say issues still don't exist, as this thread illustrates, but the problem is becoming a bit of a rarity these days, so it's no suprise to me that you've had no problems, especially on some of the more modern boards you listed. It's just the SB Live loves to cause trouble between other hardware and software, so it's still, even after many driver releases and bios updates, able to cause problems more readily than the majority of other sound cards.

Hence Thrax's comments a few posts up.
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Spinner edited : 6 Aug 2003 at 8:13am .
WuGgaRoO
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WuGgaRoO
2,351 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 3:14pm
i sue to have thjis problem back in the day when i had my 1.2ghz thunderbird..all i did was download the newest drivers from via and from winxp automatic update...and the thing worked flawlessly...i mean right now i have a sblive 5.1 and it works flawlessly
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SimGuy
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SimGuy
2,049 Posts
6 Aug 2003, 9:45pm
The backup system I'm using right now (Athlon 1GHz) has the first generation SB Live Platinum (4.1, not 5.1) and hasn't cracked yet.

The mobo (EPoX 7KXA+) uses the Via KX133 chipset with Windows 98se (I know ). Installed the latest driver updates courtesy of asia.creative.com and it works great. No crackling or anything.

You'll get no argument from me that the drivers for Creative's products suck the big one, but with some coaxing, you can get them to work alright and that's all that matters to me.

OMG F**K! System crash! I hate Win98.
BRB
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profdlp
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profdlp
21,407 Posts
14 Aug 2003, 10:55am

Update, etc.

I swapped the old SB Live! Value in favor of the SBL 5.1 a few days ago. I didn't notice much difference in sound at first, but after blowing out all of the drivers and then reinstalling them it did seem better. The crackling is diminished, though it wasn't too bad to begin with. (Unlike under Win2K, where the sound was horrible no matter what I tried).

Spinner said
After doing a quick search around the NET, I find an annoying lack of information regarding SB Live model comparisons, but as the above quote indicates, I believe the EMU10K1 may indeed have been revised for the later versions of the SB Live.

SPINNER
I noticed that the Value card (part # CT4830) has this chip: EMU10K1-SEF
and that the SBL 5.1 (part # SB0100) has this chip: EMU10K1-SFF

I have two of each card, and that pattern holds for all four of them.

Look for a new thread when I build my new system in a month or two. It will be titled "What NON-Creative sound card should I get?"

Thanks for all the advice!
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Spinner
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Spinner
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14 Aug 2003, 12:31pm
Always a pleasure my man.
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Tiribulus
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Tiribulus
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25 Aug 2003, 6:02pm
I was kinda waiting for someone to say it first, but Creative soundcards were expunged from my life long ago. Too many good alternatives for less money without all the hassles. (Hercules and Phillips have been good to me.) Even though I was always able to get them to work and they sounded good, I got burned out on the inevitable arm wrestling match getting them setup. They have relatively high cpu usage as well.
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