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Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 5:29am

HD problems! Details inside!

OK, so it all started when the HD was in my 3 or 4 year old gateway computer. The computer would start to freeze 5 minutes or so after bootup and over time it would freeze faster and faster, and now it freezes half-way through the booting process and hasn't reached windows in the last 10 boot tries. During this freezing problem the PC would also turn itself off in the middle off very early in the morning (between 2am and 7am), except it was never really off, the power light was still on but you couldn't get into windows.

So after the HD wouldn't boot the old gateway computer i put the HD into my new computer as a slave (A7N8X-DX Mobo) and the computer booted into windows fine and then said it had found the HD and installed it. So i checked my computer and the HD wasn't there, i restarted and it still wasn't there. Then i switched the old HD to the master and my HD to the slave and tried to turn the computer on but the computer froze after that colored ASUS boot screen every time (i tried 3 times).

So what is wrong with that old HD and what could i do to fix it? BTW, the old HD is a Western Digital Caviar 40 GB made on Nov 29, 2000 so it is a fairly old HD but not old enough to be failing yet.
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mmonnin
Veteran Icrontian
mmonnin
10,545 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 5:48am
Does it make any noise at all? Rattling when it starts to spin?
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Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 5:57am
A slight noise, but no worse then my working Maxtor drive. It does make a nice loud "clunk" noise about 2 seconds after i turn the PC on though.
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profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 6:25am

Unhappy Uh-Oh

That clunk doesn't sound good. If you can get it to spin up at all, I would hook it up as a second drive and try to get your data off.

The "thunk" could be a number of things. My instincts tell me that you have one of three things (my "instincts" are never too specific ): (1) Either the logic board is going bad and is instructing the read/write head mechanism arm to flail wildly, (2) the motor which controls the arm is going bad, (3) or you have developed bad sectors and the noise you hear is the seek mechanism trying to locate a spot on the disc which isn't there anymore (it's in the bad area). I'd bet that it's #3, and your bad sectors are in the boot or Windows system area, which is why it doesn't want to fully boot.

Does the drive feel extraordinarily hot when you touch it after it's been spinning a while? If so, you might try rigging a cooling fan to blow across the drive while you try and recover data.

I would check into your warranty ASAP - if you have a three year warranty or more you should get that thing RMA'd. Fortunately WD is very fair with the warranty process (in my experience, anyway). I just RMA'd a 10GB drive with them. They didn't have any more 10GB drives so they sent me a 20GB'er.


Prof
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Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 6:36am
I did hook it up as a secondary drive, windows found the HD and installed in but it never showed up under my computer.

*edit* No warranty at all with WD, i'll check with Gateway tommorow.
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Gobd edited : 7 Aug 2003 at 6:44am .
profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 6:50am
Gobd said
I did hook it up as a secondary drive, windows found the HD and installed in but it never showed up under my computer.

*edit* No warranty at all with WD, i'll check with Gateway tommorow.
You might try doing a detect hardware again after the computers been running a few minutes, just to see if it can get it going. You might also try letting it run a while, then check it. Sometimes a failing drive will actually work a little better when it's warmed up to operating temp. (I wouldn't count on it, and it could make things worse. If you have data on there you care enough about to pay for professional data recovery I'd leave it alone).

I'm surprised that you're out of warranty. The 10GB drive I mentioned was certainly older than three years. Lot's of HD manufacturers have greatly reduced their warranty in recent years, though. It could be that my drive had a five year warranty, and yours was only two.

Good Luck!


Prof
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Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 7:28am
The HD never had a warranty, Gateway must buy them without a warranty and then smack their own Gateway warranty onto it. I'm guessing the Gateway warranty is long gone but i'll go through the tiring process of talking to customer support tommorow I hate doing that, 20-30 minutes on hold then you talk to some moron who then forwards you to someone else who might know what you're talking about if you get lucky.

I don't really have anything that i want to keep on the HD, just some school work from last year that isn't important anymore. If i get a new one i'll take the old one apart so i can get the magnets, they're fun to play with
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TheLostSwede
Where's the ****ing beers?
TheLostSwede
3,212 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 8:17am
Can you access it through dos? That is if it is Fat32 off course.
If you can, you can copy over the work you want to save and finally download the right tools from WD so that you can do a proper check on that drive. Those diagnostic tools are very handy.

IF the drive works, i think you may have to zero-write the disk to be able to use it.
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profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 9:03am
Gobd said
The HD never had a warranty, Gateway must buy them without a warranty and then smack their own Gateway warranty onto it.
Is it smothered in Gateway stickers? If not, you might have a chance with WD.

I think Gateway is pretty good about warranties. Shoot, they ought to be good at something...


Prof
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Spinner
Getting it done!
Spinner
5,003 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 7:41pm

Re: Uh-Oh

profdlp said
That clunk doesn't sound good. If you can get it to spin up at all, I would hook it up as a second drive and try to get your data off.

The "thunk" could be a number of things. My instincts tell me that you have one of three things (my "instincts" are never too specific ): (1) Either the logic board is going bad and is instructing the read/write head mechanism arm to flail wildly, (2) the motor which controls the arm is going bad, (3) or you have developed bad sectors and the noise you hear is the seek mechanism trying to locate a spot on the disc which isn't there anymore (it's in the bad area). I'd bet that it's #3, and your bad sectors are in the boot or Windows system area, which is why it doesn't want to fully boot.

Prof
I'd have to agree with Prof's diagnosis. But I think even in the best of circumstances, you'd be very lucky to get data access on the drive back without a format of some sort.

I suggest heading over to WD's website and try and get your hands on their (I presume they have one) disk error checking and diagnostic tool. That should be able to fix any problems with the actual data layout and integrity of the disk and hopefully get the drive up and running again.

However, if the drive is actually suffering from a mechanical failure, I would suggest pursuing the warranty route with Gateway. However, like you suggested, going down that road may prove to be futile.

Keep us posted.

Cheers
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Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 8:34pm
Well, after trying that WD diagnostics boot disk 3 times i finally got to the screen where i could make it start (the computer froze befre it got to that point the other 2 times). So i click the start diagnostics button and then the comp freezes
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Spinner
Getting it done!
Spinner
5,003 Posts
7 Aug 2003, 8:39pm
Gobd said
Well, after trying that WD diagnostics boot disk 3 times i finally got to the screen where i could make it start (the computer froze befre it got to that point the other 2 times). So i click the start diagnostics button and then the comp freezes
Well all I can suggest is to try formatting it in DOS, doubt that will work though. I think the fact that you're having trouble getting the WD Diag tools to work, indicates probable hardware failure. My condolences.

I suggest a hole 5" by 7", and about 10" down, somewhere in your garden perhaps.

You may now want to investigate the matter a little further, just so you can be sure it wasn't caused by, say... a faulty PSU or something. I would give your PC the once over, monitor your voltages, run some stress tests, etc etc. I'm sure you'll agree, if there is any chance you can avoid this happening again, then it's worth a couple of days of fiddling.

Although I might add, I suspect in this particular case, it was just a problem with the drive, and wasn't caused by anything external to it (considering its age).
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Spinner edited : 7 Aug 2003 at 8:45pm .
Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 5:43am
Well, today i tested the memory and it is fine, it completed 2 passes in memt86 without any errors. I re-installed windows and it worked fine for about 2 or 3 hours then started freezing again. Later tonight or tommorow i will try taking out the old 56k modem, and swapping the video card, and lan card to see if that does anything.

Still no luck with the WD diagnostics tool, i guess i should have ran it while windows was working

*update* I got the quick scan to work and it found no errors in the HD, right now i am running the extended test and i will post the results when it finishes (in about 19 minutes). If the HD is fine then it must be the videocard causing the problems because the memeory ran 2 passes of memt86 without any errors and i can't image the sound card, 56k modem, or lan card causing a problem.
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Gobd edited : 8 Aug 2003 at 5:54am .
profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 5:54am

Question Have you...

...tried to run the WD diags from DOS? That will tell you if it's a Windows problem or not. Probably when you reinstalled it just placed the new Windows files in a "good" area of the disk. Then once your swap file came into play it moved something to a bad area of the disk (assuming the disk is bad).
Is your Anti-Virus stuff up to date?


Prof
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Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 6:05am
Yes my anti-virus is up to date, scanned the whole computer and it found nothing. Still doing the extended scan... about 8 minutes left.

*update* The extended test found no errors, i will try to remove the lan card and 56k modem and then put a different video card in and see if that fixes the problem.
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Gobd edited : 8 Aug 2003 at 6:16am .
Spinner
Getting it done!
Spinner
5,003 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 7:01pm
Hmm I see. You'll have to forgive my presumption that your initial running of the WD Diag' tool was in DOS. I didn't think to consider you were running it in Windows, I thought it would have been a DOS specific program.

If I had realised I would have been a little more sceptical about the cause of your OS crashes, nevertheless... Was the second succesfull attempt at testing your HD performed in DOS or Windows?

I think it would be pretty safe to say that if the hard drive managed to make it through an extended test without errors, I can now summize that it's probably fine. So you can hold off on the shallow grave, at least for the moment. Quick question though, when you performed a re-install of the OS, did you format the hard drive? if you did, quick or full? Is there a format function in the WD diag tool?

You've got the right idea though, by swapping your components around one by one, and might I suggest, if you have more than one memory stick you reduce the amount (for testing sake) to just one stick, and perhaps try moving it's DIMM slot position as well. Also make sure all your BIOS CPU, memory and BUS timings are all pretty laid back, whilst at the same time checking again that everything is as it should... e.g AGP is Init Display First etc etc.

How are your voltages looking? Got a spare PSU you can swap your current one with?

Could you also describe the freezing you are getting in a little more detail please, is the freezing followed by a BSOD and/or restart? do you get some funny lines appearing accross the screen?

I however am still slightly confused about what is going on, simply because of the below quote. You indicate that you tried the HD in another system, and it still had trouble getting it to work? Fancy trying that again? You see the problem is, you now say that the HD is question has passed an extended manufacuturers test, which indicates it is fine, but the fact that it wouldn't work in your newer system indicates that there is still a problem with the drive. What OS's are the Gateway and the newer PC running? what file system is or was the HD? You also said you had trouble finding the HD in the newer systems OS? did you check in Disk Manager? (Disk manager being Windows onboard formatting and partioning tool)

So after the HD wouldn't boot the old gateway computer i put the HD into my new computer as a slave (A7N8X-DX Mobo) and the computer booted into windows fine and then said it had found the HD and installed it. So i checked my computer and the HD wasn't there, i restarted and it still wasn't there. Then i switched the old HD to the master and my HD to the slave and tried to turn the computer on but the computer froze after that colored ASUS boot screen every time (i tried 3 times).
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Spinner edited : 8 Aug 2003 at 7:17pm .
Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 8:07pm
The second attempt at testing my HD was performed off a boot disk in DOS.

When i re-installed the OS (Windows XP Pro) i did a full format with NTFS. There is a format function in the WD Diag tool (write zeroes) but i didn't use that.

I have no clue how to test the voltages in that computer because i don't know what the motherboard is, and i've heard that the Gateway mobos use different power supplies and that a normal one won't work.

The freezing is only freezing, the mouse won't move, and the light for numlock won't go on or off, there is never a BSOD or funny lines. The freezing isn't in windows only, sometimes the computer freezes when it is starting up or even in DOS like when i tried to run the WD Diag utility.

Both the Gateway and newer PC are running Windows XP Pro with an NTFS file system. I was able to find the HD in device manager but it never showed up under "My Computer" or any other program.
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Spinner
Getting it done!
Spinner
5,003 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 8:40pm
Gobd said
I have no clue how to test the voltages in that computer because i don't know what the motherboard is, and i've heard that the Gateway mobos use different power supplies and that a normal one won't work.
Yes that's right, sorry, my oversight, Gateway systems will use a different PSU to that of what is standard, so I guess that's out the question. What I meant by test the voltages is, in the BIOS, or by using some motherboard monitoring tool, just check to see if there is any obvious irregularities, i.e the voltages are more than 5% variant of their optimal stated power level.

The freezing is only freezing, the mouse won't move, and the light for numlock won't go on or off, there is never a BSOD or funny lines. The freezing isn't in windows only, sometimes the computer freezes when it is starting up or even in DOS like when i tried to run the WD Diag utility.


Dead and sudden freezing is almost always a sign of a hardware problem, and more specifically is usually associated with a damaged or faulty CPU. Have you recently changed Heat Sinks, or had the Heat Sink off the CPU? I suggest getting your hands on another CPU and seeing if that cures your problems.

I was able to find the HD in device manager but it never showed up under "My Computer" or any other program.
I don't mean device manager I mean disk manager, as shown below. (Right Click My computer - Manage - Disk Management)
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Spinner edited : 8 Aug 2003 at 8:43pm .
profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 9:30pm
Spinner said
Dead and sudden freezing is almost always a sign of a hardware problem, and more specifically is usually associated with a damaged or faulty CPU. Have you recently changed Heat Sinks, or had the Heat Sink off the CPU? I suggest getting your hands on another CPU and seeing if that cures your problems.
Second the motion. Make sure all fans, especially the heat sink fan, is doing its thing.
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Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 10:25pm
The fan is working fine, i just cleaned out all the dust and trtied again and that didn't help. How am i suposed to get that heatsink off if i buy a new CPU? There are no places to put a screwdriver like there are the in the stock heatsinks now.
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profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 10:35pm

Question ?

Gobd said
The fan is working fine, i just cleaned out all the dust and trtied again and that didn't help. How am i suposed to get that heatsink off if i buy a new CPU? There are no places to put a screwdriver like there are the in the stock heatsinks now.
How is the old one attached? What is the brand & speed of your CPU?
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Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 11:34pm
It is attached the same way the new stock heatsinks are, there just isn't a good place to put a screwdriver so it is hard to get the heatsink off. I'm sure that if i took the motherboard out of the case i could get the heatsink off though. The CPU is an AMD Athlon 1000Mhz like this one.

If i have to buy a new CPU i'd rather spend the extra $12.50 and buy this CPU. Do you think the old stock heatsink would cool that CPU or would i have to buy a new heatsink? If i would have to buy a new heatsink can you recommend some that would work with that CPU?

This heatsink says that it would work with a 1.4Ghz AMD Athlon processor (i have some AS3 to use so that will help). Does anyone have any opinions on that CPU and heatsink combo?
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Gobd edited : 8 Aug 2003 at 11:49pm .
profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
8 Aug 2003, 11:56pm

Lightbulb First Things First

I'd make sure you are 100% sure you have isolated the problem first. What if you lay out $46.50 and find out that it's your MB? Then you'll have two processors and no board to run them on. Do you have a spare processor to try, or a friend who might loan you one?

As an experiment, you might try leaving the computer on in "Safe Mode" overnight. If it's a Vid card or something it might work with the fail-safe driver.
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Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
9 Aug 2003, 1:49am
Well, i already know its not the hard drive because it passed the manufacturers extended test errors free. I know its not the memory becuase it made it through two passes of MemT86 error free. I know its not the video card because i put a different video card in and it still froze. I'm wiling to spend the money on the CPU, i've had other people that i know tell me it is the CPU so i'm pretty sure that that is the problem.
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profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
9 Aug 2003, 2:04am
I'm not arguing with you at all - after passing all of the other tests I think you may be right, that it is the CPU.
Since the CPU (and everything else) depends on a good motherboard to function properly I'm merely suggesting that testing the entire system with a different CPU before you spend any money would be a good idea.

I think Spinner raised a key point: if there is nothing wrong with the drive, why did you have problems using it in the other computer? Have you used the WD utility to zero-out the drive? (I quickly scanned your messages to see if you did, but might have missed it).

Good Luck!
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Gobd
Icrontic Duke of Haxor
Gobd
144 Posts
9 Aug 2003, 2:40am
Both the CPU and heatsink can be returned, so it couldn't hurt to try. If they don't fix the problem then i know its the motherboard.
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Straight_Man
Playing with Virtual Painter
Straight_Man
3,716 Posts
9 Aug 2003, 3:43am
Ok, given this, I would get off the drive (in DOS) anythign you can that you gotta have. then I would zero pack it. Viruses can write to HDs in strange places, adn I have zero packed about 30 in the last year that would be found in BIOS but not be found in the Widnwos install bacuse the virus trashed something in boot sector and in some cases they rewrite the MBR and leave bigger size value than the drive has bacause some utter idiot thought killing an enemy's HD was fun.

IF the older HD was not virus protected all the time, a virus could have hopped onto it than and the viruses that most commonly do this are older. And, every 3-5 years I have to zero pack HDs that mysteriously will not run Widnwos but will test OK.

Also, for kicks, try replacing the HD cable. My three year maintainance on systems for custromers includes replacing IDE cables connected to drives that act at all flaky. Those aluminum conductors get trashed real easy if bent sharply at connector or anyplace else, and a broken control signal line or socket or connector corrossion in an IDE cable can cause chaos in Windows and not DOS if it is not up to snuff.

Also, when I have a Maxtor and a WD in one box I force one to master and one to slave-- they respond on boot at different rates, and different combos do that different. controllers can get confused if the drive closest responds whil it is talking to the faster starting drive further away on cable, and specificly jumping the HDs will get tehm better at talking to controller at right time. Compaqs are fussy as all getout about the right HD being in them-- they use Samsungs and Maxtors mostly these days unless WD cuts them a huge buy price break on 4-5 pallets of HD (they come 200-250 drives per pallet when bulk shipped). I HATE working on Compaqs with HD problems.
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Spinner
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Spinner
5,003 Posts
9 Aug 2003, 4:08am
Ageek has some good points, but Prof' says it all. If I had to choose, I would say your CPU is the problem, or at least one of the problems, but you need to confirm this before you spend any money (I know you said you could return it, but isn't that a hassle you could do without?). Surely there is someone you know who has a compatible CPU. Also, I'd feel a lot better if we could get to the bottom of your hard drive mysteries, as at the moment it is making this investigation a 3 dimensional one, which make things a lot more complicated than they need to be.

However...

A way to take the hard drive out of the equation, is simply to remove it from your system, and supliment it with another drive. So then if the problem remains you'll know for certain that it is either the CPU or the mobo. A little patience is required on your part here I feel, you know what you have to do now. We have three hardware items to elliminate, the only practical items you can swap out are the HD and the CPU, so you need to do that.

If however you do decide to take a chance and buy a replacement CPU, just based on our best guesses, the combination you suggested of CPU and HS is fine, but you will almost certainly find their are much better HS's out there for the same price or only a little bit more (have a browse through the Cooling forum for a few ideas). Also it may be worth making sure that that Gateway system can take a CPU of that clock speed. You might find it can't, so it would be best to double check.

Bottom line though, if I had to say what component I think is most likely to be causing you your problems, based on the information you have given me, I would have to say (like I have said) the CPU! but (again, like I have said) I urge you to make sure.

Keep us posted mate.

SPINNER
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Spinner edited : 9 Aug 2003 at 4:11am .
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