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Brilt
I have a Clark Kent Complex
Brilt
289 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 7:16am

Question where is the debate forum???

where is the debate forum???
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LawnMM
Oppressor of Crackheads
LawnMM
994 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 9:08am
Brilt said
where is the debate forum???
Why, feeling like an argument?! Bring it!


Just kiddin'
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Shorty
Sniping teh enterpwise!
Shorty
9,543 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 9:21am
We thought about, we talked about and I nearly hit the button to add it... but

It just causes far too much hassle for any good it might do. So we decided not to have one.
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Hawk
Veteran Icrontian
Hawk
2,866 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 12:51pm
I thought thats what forums are for? Debating.
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Slick
OMG don't touch the chair
Slick
384 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 2:38pm
I agree, that was one of the very best forums back at icrontic. I know that this isnt icrontic, but I thought it was aimed toward what the people wanted. Just place some extra staff in the debate forum to make sure things do not get out of hand.
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jimzinsocal
The Weasel
jimzinsocal
67 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 3:59pm
We set one up at amdmb.com.....much like you guys had at Icrontic...matter of fact...it was Icrontic member Tabasco...that suggested the form(a sub forum). For me its proven to be a huge success. Not my genius....Im just a mod of TLR at amdmb...but it sure has worked. JimZ
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mmonnin
Veteran Icrontian
mmonnin
10,545 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 4:29pm
If we were going to have one, I would like to keep it to hardware, software, technology, etc. Some of the political stuff gets too heated.
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Brilt
I have a Clark Kent Complex
Brilt
289 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 4:34pm
Shorty said
We thought about, we talked about and I nearly hit the button to add it... but

It just causes far too much hassle for any good it might do. So we decided not to have one.
Shorty I understand that the debate forum would bring some arguments but that’s what debating is except it is more civilized. I feel that if the debate (sub)forum is available that there will be a wealth of information on many subjects that all members can learn from.
It also allows members to further their skills for the real world and other social venues which if truth be told a lot of us aren’t that comfortable with (not me as you can tell you can’t shut me up )
If you worried about things going amiss maybe stricter rules for the debate (sub) forum could be placed.

If your unsure if everyone wants it maybe you can make a poll on the main page to see if people want it. It’s just an idea
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Shorty
Sniping teh enterpwise!
Shorty
9,543 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 5:02pm
The problem with "stricter" rules is they are hard to implement. When we do enforce them, members consider us to be too harsh with them (even though they agreed to them).

Truthfully, we don't want to have "enforce" rules too harsh here. Debate will cause some people to fall out and argue. This is the nature of debate sometimes (not always.. please note!).

It can get messy and while on the surface seems to be chugging along, it can get out of hand very quickly.

I know of three online forums who have had debate areas and have now closed & archived them. Im certainly not saying that it is guaranteed to fail, but it's just something we don't wish to "try". There are just too many "possibles" and issues that can arise from it.
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Slick
OMG don't touch the chair
Slick
384 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 5:06pm
* Slick goes and checks out the new icrontic.com...
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Thrax
Cad
Thrax
23,398 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 6:02pm
Bring back the debate forum you liberal Brit! How dare you kill my brain-child!
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profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 6:59pm

Wink Mixed Feelings

I find myself torn on this one. On one hand I enjoy a lively political debate as much as anyone. On the other hand, I do see a real threat that two people who might cheerfully disagree over MB brands or BIOS settings could become bitter enemies because of something that happened during a political discussion. I confess that I have sometimes posted comments in the heat of the moment which I later regretted. (My Scotch-Irish ancestry, no doubt).

There are plenty of Blogs and political sites out there for that sort of thing, I guess I'd just hate to see bad feelings arise due to a topic which is way off the focus of a tech site.

But I won't argue too hard either way.

Prof
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MrBill
Support Our Troops
MrBill
2,135 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 7:08pm

Re: Mixed Feelings

profdlp said
I guess I'd just hate to see bad feelings arise due to a topic which is way off the focus of a tech site.
That is what I believe to be the core reason for not having a debate forum.
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mmonnin
Veteran Icrontian
mmonnin
10,545 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 7:10pm
Thats what I think MrBill. One of the major complains I heard about ICF before it went down the crapper is that there was too much OT. It got away from the tech site it used to be.
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Thrax
Cad
Thrax
23,398 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 7:46pm
It got away from being a tech site because the tech sector stagnated for the better part of seven months.

The Radeon 9700 had established itself as the video leader for close to a year, there was nothing innovative to be had in the video market.

The KT333 was the leader for about 5 months, and the nForce2 for the remainder of that time. There were no innovative products in an AMD-centric community. Canterwood and Springdale were blips on the radar in our community.

The Intel vs. AMD debate had been discussed ad-nauseum, and despite the further production of newer Athlon cores, everyone ended up getting the same damn thing (JIUHB) stifling any discussion.

Cases? Chieftec.
Processors? AGOIA 1600; JIUHB 1700.
Motherboards? KT333 (8K5A3+/KX7-333R)/nForce2 (8RDA+, NF7-S 2.0, A7N8X).
Video cards? Radeon 9700 Pro.
Monitors? Not a big topic.
Hard drives? WD Caviar.
RAM? Corsair.

We all got the same things at the same time.

One cannot be an innovative tech site when there is no innovation to discuss. Where does a group of people who love their community go when the primary function of their site capsizes? Off topic.

You can see it here too. Go look at off topic, and then look back at all the other forums. People are asking the same questions as before, and the volume of off-topic posts surpasses that of any other forum.

Don't expect a big leap in technical posts until September.
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Thrax edited : 7 Jun 2003 at 7:54pm .
Aranyic
Yep
Aranyic
1,083 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 7:48pm
Thrax just hit the nail on the head.
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muddocktor
Wandering about
muddocktor
6,250 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 8:04pm
Thrax brings up some very valid points. There might be relief on the horizon though, with Canterwood and Springdale just being released, though Intel's price points for the 200 fsb P4's is still kind of high. Plus, with the release of Athlon 64 in a few months as well as the .09 micron process P4's, we might have some new tech stuff to debate about, but it is pretty well known right now that outside of extreme cooling, the fastest rigs are P4 based and the value leader is the XP rigs.
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profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 8:13pm

Cool I agree, and...

I enjoy the "New Hardware" debates, and agree that there hasn't been as much to talk about in that area as of late.

But I really like the troubleshooting stuff. It is a nice feeling to have someone you have helped out come back and say "Hey! Now it works!". And now is as good a time as any to once again thank all of you who have bailed ME out when I was up a creek.

So, THANK YOU!


Prof
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MrBill
Support Our Troops
MrBill
2,135 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 8:20pm

Re: Re: Mixed Feelings

MrBill said
profdlp said
I guess I'd just hate to see bad feelings arise due to a topic which is way off the focus of a tech site.
That is what I believe to be the core reason for not having a debate forum.
My point was that no matter what reason people are in the "debate forum", there will be ill feelings and people will get pissed off passed the point of any intelligent behavior.

I am not questioning why people post in off topic....that is somewhat obvious. The lack of new/interesting hardware AND an "average maturity level" below what it takes to carry on intelligent debate without someone going off the deep are what leads to t-r-o-u-b-l-e.

It's quite irontic that we seem to be debating having a debate forum.


//edit: New hardware can and will be debated in the hardware forum. No need for a separate debate forum. IMHO.
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MrBill edited : 7 Jun 2003 at 8:26pm .
primesuspect
The Icrontic Guy
primesuspect
27,789 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 10:06pm
I try to look at it in a bit simpler way:

This is a tech site, not a debate site or a political site. You wanna debate which video card is better? Great, post it in the video forum, and people will debate it. AMD vs. Intel? Perfect for the Hardware Discussion forum. You wanna talk about where the WMD's are, or why Bush's N. Korea policy is different from his Iraq policy, it doesn't really belong here. What does political debate have to do with Media, Hardware, Computers, or Technology in general?
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Slick
OMG don't touch the chair
Slick
384 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 10:35pm
What is the sence in the feedback forum. People tell you what they want, and you just seem to disregard it, or tell people it is a bad idea. Most of the ideas stated in these threads are great ideas if properly implemented, but it seems like you admins don't care to implement them, only tell us it causes to many problems.

[EDIT] I just came up with the answer I was searching for why it seems to be crap. You say things are more trouble than they are worth. There are tons of people who would love to do the job. You have pretty much unlimted human resources if you think like that. I am sure tons of people would volunteer to mod a debate forum. How can you say its more trouble than its worth, just have someone else do it. If no one on your staff wants to do it, add more staff that do.
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Slick edited : 7 Jun 2003 at 10:52pm .
Thrax
Cad
Thrax
23,398 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 10:59pm
Politics don't belong with technology?




And any of this does?

I see your point, but it's grossly illogical.
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profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 11:04pm

Lightbulb Well...

I think it's clear that the lack of the debate forum is not due to the trouble it would take to set one up, but due to the trouble it might cause afterwards.

They could have twenty mods policing things, but the net result could be a bunch of people getting banned, and a bunch of others quitting the site in a huff.

As far as the other suggestions, I'm sure that many of them will be implemented, just maybe not in the first week the site is open.


Prof
(Growing more patient in my old age).
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profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 11:07pm

Thrax has a point...

...but, I can't see open warfare starting due to a disagreement over a post in the Babe Thread.

Unless someone posts pictures of Roseanne...

Prof
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primesuspect
The Icrontic Guy
primesuspect
27,789 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 11:11pm
Thrax said
Politics don't belong with technology?



And any of this does?

I see your point, but it's grossly illogical.
Not really... I didn't say that any of those off-topic posts DID belong with technology.. That would be illogical.

However, there is no such thing as a pure tech forum - the flavor of the forums is dictated by the posts. The topic of posts is guided by forum guidelines. Forum guidelines are drafted by the owners of the site. As the owners of the site, myself, Shorty, and MM have decided that we want to "guide" the forums in a technical direction, not a political direction. Who's to say what belongs with what? There's no such animal as a formula to tell us what belongs with what. All we can do is go with our gut feelings, backed up by experience from past forums and the maturity and wisdom that comes with living life. So, that's what we choose to do. We choose to guide the focus towards technical discussions, not political.

And please don't try to turn this into a "You oppressors of freedom!" thing. There are a million forum sites out there. You want to debate politics? Go to http://www.political-debate.com/cgi-...ew.pl?board=pd

You want religious discussions? I'm all for it, I'm a religious man. In fact, I'm starting a new forum site that's all about Buddhism. When it launches, I'll let you know.

Seriously, this is not a nation. Your life does not depend on what your freedoms are or are not on this forum site. Just come here, talk tech and games and cool stuff with us, and leave the political debates at the door. Jeez!
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Thrax
Cad
Thrax
23,398 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 11:36pm
Frankly, I'm quite disgusted that you would insinuate that I even wish to turn this into an oppression of freedoms discussion.

If we have no debate forum, then off topic will become one...It's inevitable. It was the very same reason why we created one on Icrontic, with the very same people. Let's just hope that guiding experience will make the same transition when inevitability becomes the present.
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tefleming
polytetrafluoroethylene
tefleming
471 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 11:44pm
They have this feedback so that us users can make suggestions. They don't have to take them.

In this case, the OWNERS of the site have said they don't want a debate forum.

As much as some of us may disagree, that's tough.

If you still want a forum for debating, other sites provide a forum for that.

Don't jump down shorty's or prime's throat. This is their site, they can do with it what they want.
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primesuspect
The Icrontic Guy
primesuspect
27,789 Posts
7 Jun 2003, 11:48pm
§lick said
What is the sence in the feedback forum. People tell you what they want, and you just seem to disregard it, or tell people it is a bad idea. Most of the ideas stated in these threads are great ideas if properly implemented, but it seems like you admins don't care to implement them, only tell us it causes to many problems.

Thrax said
Frankly, I'm quite disgusted that you would insinuate that I even wish to turn this into an oppression of freedoms discussion.
Sorry Thrax, that oppression of freedom comment was directed at §lick's post, not yours. I should have clarified. I was responding to the last two posts. Gotta get used to this multiple quote feature

I disagree with you (thrax ) that off-topic will become a debate thread. There will certainly from time to time be debatable material posted in off-topic, that's inevitable. But off topic is, for the most part, people having fun, getting a chance to become "friends" with other posters outside of the context of technical discussion.

I don't know why people have such an issue with this. This and the "swear filter" are such hot topics. The ownership of this site has made some administrative decisions based upon our desires for the direction of this site. Everybody should respect our decisions. We are not a democracy here, unfortunately. That sounds harsh, but it's true. But we are all friends, and if suddenly we decreed that everybody must type 12345 at the end of their posts, or be banned, then you could probably convince us as to why that is a stupid idea. However, there is not really any chance at this time to convince us to create a debate forum. This site is only five days old, and we don't want a debate forum, plain and simple. I am not going to say that the possibility won't come up again, but for now, it's just not happening.
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Slick
OMG don't touch the chair
Slick
384 Posts
8 Jun 2003, 11:41am
I am not saying you are an oppressor of freedom. I am just stating you have the resources to do it when you are telling us you don't.
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Shorty
Sniping teh enterpwise!
Shorty
9,543 Posts
8 Jun 2003, 11:53am
MoXon said
They have this feedback so that us users can make suggestions. They don't have to take them.

In this case, the OWNERS of the site have said they don't want a debate forum.

As much as some of us may disagree, that's tough.

If you still want a forum for debating, other sites provide a forum for that.

Don't jump down shorty's or prime's throat. This is their site, they can do with it what they want.
Exactly. We have to make decisions. Some will be liked and some will not. This is one decision that only a few have disliked.

§lick said
I am not saying you are an oppressor of freedom. I am just stating you have the resources to do it when you are telling us you don't.
We do have the resources. We also have our opinions. We have stated clearly that we don't want a debate forum at this time. In the future, it could well become a possibility. At this stage (less than a week old!), we are not intending on implementing one.

That is the stance and decision. Not yet, maybe later.
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muddocktor
Wandering about
muddocktor
6,250 Posts
8 Jun 2003, 7:37pm
Slick,

Shorty, prime and MM have their plate full right now with trying to get the front page going and finish ironing out everything here in the forums. Heck man, we've been back live for less than a week; give it some time. Right before the IC forums died, there was almost no traffic in Debates there anyways. I know because I was one of the mods in Debates.

Shorty has not said that there will never be a Debates forum here; he has said not at this time. Give it a while and let things settle down and then maybe there will be time to discuss the merits/drawbacks of a Debate forum.

As for myself, I think that if a Debates forums is set up here, political and religious topics should be banned because they are too easy to get flame wars started with. Tempers are very easily flared up when someone diagrees with your viewpoint/opinion on these subjects and then the harsh words start flying and before you know it, someone is banned.
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T-BirD
Living on former glory.
T-BirD
174 Posts
8 Jun 2003, 9:36pm

For what it matters...

I'd like to see the debate forum reborn sometime in the future as well.

Back at icrontic, it was my favorite forum. I'm not saying I didn't like the technical forums (and folding and gaming) - especially since my brand new KT7-RAID is what originally brought me to icrontic nearly 3 years ago.

However, since for a while I didn't have that many hardware problems or questions - mainly due to the fact that in the past year I haven't had the opportunity to mess with it much (and as such I haven't been in any position to help people out either) - the debate and gaming forums were where I spent most of my time (true, debate had stagnated for 2-3 weeks before "the end").

I appreciate everything you all are doing to give us a new home, especially since I'm well aware of the insane amount of work that goes into running a much smaller site, and therefore I can barely fathom what this would entail. Nonetheless, beyond being a news and hardware help site, the old icrontic was a community, and any community will debate about whatever comes to mind.

I'm in no way demanding a debate forum by tomorrow, I'm simply making a request that you remain open to the possibility of reinstating one in the future (as you seem to be).

Thanks
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duncan
New to the neighborhood
duncan
1 Posts
9 Jun 2003, 6:37am
What's there to debate??????????
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profdlp
Off To The Gym
profdlp
21,407 Posts
9 Jun 2003, 4:22pm

In The Interim

If anyone is really itching for an argument, you could go here:

http://www.duke.edu/~pms5/humor/argument.html

Or if that doesn't do it for you, I could introduce you to my ex-wife!


Prof
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MediaMan
Driven by Socket 462754939940
MediaMan
2,691 Posts
9 Jun 2003, 5:54pm
Let me state for the record that Thrax is an excellent debater. He can present a very good rebuttle to many issues.

The debate forum was not included in these forums due to its highly volatile nature. Over the time at Icrontic I saw many members who left in disgust after having some clashes. While those that remained argued "if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen" it nevertheless caused some members to leave.

I have to agree that a debate forum can be ignored. I did. It was a self contained room that members could beat each other silly with. But like a car accident...others could not.

Like the profanity filter it is an issue that, in a utopian society, we would not have the use for.

Hardware issues can be debated in their appropriate forums. IE: Cheiftec vs. OEM...which is better? That is what the forums are for.

To restrict a debate forum to not discuss religon, politics, sex or drugs....pretty well leaves no debate forum doesn't it? Those issues are/can be the most volatile. It is this volatility that I wanted to avoid. Some members can debate quite well without profanity or being abusive. Thrax is such an example. But a lot of others don't react well or can keep a persepective on the fact that it is the art of debate rather than open abuse on another member.

It's a catch-22.

While some may agree that politics should stay out...most will not. The same for other topics...so how do you moderate and restrict the topics? If I were to set the topic rules most would not agree with me. Including those who want a debate forum.

You can now see the problem taking shape.

Now...consider this issue closed for the moment. We have not disregarded your requests or opinions. That is furthest from the truth. While it may be easy to click a button and add a new forum...the issues that have to be addressed with that new forum take time to plan-consider to hopefully satisfy the entire membership.

Right now...I don't have that solution or plan in mind. But this matter isn't dead...it's just shelved for the moment while we attend to more pressing matters. It will be discussed seriously in the future (give us some time please). I am not promising either way...I am promising that we'll see if there is a solution.
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T-BirD
Living on former glory.
T-BirD
174 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 2:15am
What about a front-end page with disclaimers where people have to click "I agree" or "I do not agree"?

Just kidding
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