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JLunar
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JLunar
100 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 2:30am

help with new computer specs

So my old computer is ... old. It's not even cracking 500mhz, it's so old. Here's what I was thinking of, so I want to hear your suggestions. Thanks!

New stuff:
- P4 2.8Ghz 800bus 512k cache
- ASUS P4C800 Intel 875P
- 2xPC3200 512 RAM
- Matrox Parahelia 128? <-- any opinions?
- Lite-on CD+DVD read combo (DVD-R to come later)
- Case reccommendations w/400w PS + USB2.0 front inputs preferred

Old stuff:
- SoundBlaster Live!
- Plexwriter8/4/32 CDRW
- Logitech Op Mouse
- Intous 2 8x6
- 22" and 19" monitors
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danball1976
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danball1976
2,634 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 3:05am
Forget the Intel system, make it an AMD system.
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Shivian
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Shivian
225 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 3:06am
Just out of curiousity why do you want the Parhelia? Last I checked they were relatively overpriced but I guess it depends on what you want to use it for... for gaming the high end ATi cards might be a better option.
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Geeky1
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Geeky1
7,972 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 3:29am
I'd suggest an AMD as well... how much did you want to spend, and what would you be using it for?

As a baseline, I'd recommend a 2500+, an ASUS A7N8X, a R9700 Pro, 2 256mb sticks of PC3200, an 80gb 8mb 7200rpm Maxtor or WD hdd, and one of those chieftech full towers with 4 Thermaltake SmartFan 2s, a Thermalright SLK-800, and another SmartFan2 for that... that would be a good midrange system...
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Resident Dual CPU Addict: 3 working duallies, 2 more in the parts drawer, and looking to add an Opteron dually to that list as soon as I can find a good motherboard...
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primesuspect
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primesuspect
27,799 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 3:48am
Well knowing what Jen's going to be doing, let me throw my vote in for the parhelia. Coupled with the right display, this card puts out the best image quality around. It's expensive, but it's the right fit for what she's doing. Although I would agree with the boys here that you should go AMD instead of intel..
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JLunar
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JLunar
100 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 3:52am
spending is a little relative. depends what I'm getting and all that. I am, however willing to spring for more, simply because I'm too lazy to update every year. I've had my last computer for the last three years, so I'm happy with the return on it. I mean, it *used* to be a kickin' computer... at any rate, I'd rather invest a little more now and not have to upgrade for a while.

To give you an idea of what I'd use the computer for, I'd be colouring roughly 7x10 sized pages with around 15 layers on a good day in photoshop. These files are usually 400 dpi, and are around 50 megs - 100 meg working files.

My computer does alright now, but gaming wise, I'm running low. A SimCity 3000 city tends to take forever to scroll. And with all the new proggies coming out, I might as well upgrade. finally.

I know y'all love AMD, but the hyperthreading is tantalizing. not to mention that I'm not really a modder or o'cer...

I've also got a few drives I'll be putting in, so that part is covered...

I also hear the the 9800pro will do just as good as the Parhelia for 2D, and plus, the gaming goodness. not that I play FPS's really, but I'm thinking ahead now... mmm.. games.

Jen

edit: trying making sense...
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JLunar edited : 10 Jun 2003 at 3:54am .
Clutch
I'm the man in the box
Clutch
4,805 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 4:33am
A chieftec should do you good on a case, I would go with a mid-tower, seeing as you want need many 5.25" bays to use. The Parahelia should do you fine, unless you wan't to slap a 9800Pro in it. Will you be going dual monitors? I know you said you already had 22" and 19" monitors. If you get a case w/o a psu then I would suggest the Antec TruePower line of power supplys. Slk-800 might be a little out of budget for a heatsink, unless you want to spend $40.20 for one ( I ordered one today from SVC for that price ) and a panaflo, or smart fan.
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JLunar
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JLunar
100 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 5:00am
dual all the way! I'm leaning towards the 9800 right now... so tasty. and seeing as they cost just about the same.

I may or may not keep my current hi-tower. Gotta check if the PS is built in or if I can rip it out. If so, I might just buy a PSU and keep the current tower. ugly ass as it is. all I ever do is shove it under the desk anyway.

What's the benefit of an slk-800? (i'm pretty heatsink stupid. my computer knowledge takes me only so far...)
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mmonnin
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mmonnin
10,545 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 5:08am
Its the best out there at cooling your AMD CPU. You can then use a less powerful, thus less noisy, fan to cool the CPU at the same temps.
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Geeky1
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Geeky1
7,972 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 8:15am
ATi cards have ALWAYS had some of the best 2d quality around. It comes pretty close to what I've heard Matrox's is like, and if you are planning on using "only" 2 monitors, I'd stick with a Radeon 9500, 9700, or 9800 because if you do want to play games @ some point, you're gonna need it. My Radeon 8500 whups a parhelia without breaking a sweat, and it's going on 2 or 3 years old now...

About the SLK-800, as mmonin said, it's one of the best heatsinks
around for cooling AMD CPUs (or P4s if you get the "U" version). For some reason, a lot of people seem to think that spending extra money on cooling isn't justified. It is. A 3.06GHz P4 puts out as much as 105w of heat, and an Athlon 3200+ can put out 75w or more... add in the heat of a high-power video card such as a GF4, Parhelia, or Radeon (another 50w of heat or more potentially) and high-speed hard drives, the chipset, etc. and you're talking about some serious heat-producing capacity. The better the heatsinks on your stuff are, the less airflow you need to keep them cool. Theoretically, you could passively cool an Athlon, but it would require a heatsink far too large to fit on a motherboard... it's a good idea to invest in a good cooling setup...

I'll poke around a bit and post a few recommendations later today (it's 12:14am here and I'm tired...) By the way, have you thought about a dual processor system?

//Edit// One other thing... I may be mistaken, but I think that I've heard that hyperthreading is essentially useless for photoshop...
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Geeky1 edited : 10 Jun 2003 at 8:18am .
Shorty
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Shorty
9,543 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 8:28am
Ahh.. the sweet sound of a new rig .. there is nothing like it

Photoshop is a harsh beast and the hyperthreading is tempting but.. Geeky's suggestion is a good one about a dualie board. Hyperthreading does work with PS, but not earth-shattering.

Photoshop is dual processor aware. The performance increase from using dual processors isn't in gaming but is in PS.. there is a significant one. Il dig out some benches I have seen on this and post them back.

The parhelia is a great card, there is no mistaking but gaming wise, you will suffer against a Radeon 9800. The radeon 9800pro would have the 2d horsepower of the parhelia (purely due to the age of the parhelia). It would certainly be prudent to consider the 9800pro .. it also has excellent dual monitor support. If you are looking for more than two monitors, the parahelia is your baby. (I couldn't live without my dual monitors!)

What would I suggest as you not an non-overclocker and modder.. but a great digital artist? who wants to game?

A dual processor board with a couple of MP cpu's (it would still work out more cost effective than a single hyperthreading CPU), a gig of DDR and a radeon 9800pro. This is very future-proof and reliable It also happens to have the power to really bring photoshop to it's knees (which is always nice)
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Omega65
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Omega65
2,891 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 10:19am
As for Athlon vs P4 (with Hyperthreading) computational power take a quick look at this post. Keep in mind that the Athlon is working @ 2.2ghz vs the P4 3.0ghz

then imagine Two of those Athlons working for you.

Grab a MSI K7D Master-L and two Athlon MP 2800+
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elektrik
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elektrik
12 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 11:45am
I think it would be best to stick with the P4. IMHO, replacing it with the equivalent AthlonXP isn't worth it, at the moment.
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Omega65
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Omega65
2,891 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 1:10pm
elektrik said
I think it would be best to stick with the P4. IMHO, replacing it with the equivalent AthlonXP isn't worth it, at the moment.
Feel free to name the Pentium 4 system that will equal the Photo Editing power of a Dual Barton MP 2800 system.

Mobo & 2 MP 2800+ = $750

Mobo and 2 modded XP 2500+ = $400
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Rob
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Rob
339 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 1:15pm
Well, keep in mind this is a build it and use it person. Buying parts for a OC'in type rig is really a waste.

P4's really do run well, despite what you read. They are not big on OC'in like the AMD's, and do cost more per chip. BUT, they do run well, run fairly quite with retail HSF's (which is all you will ever need BTW, dont waste your time or money for a big honkin HSF)

Dual AMD's are really strong machines, BUT I wouldnt sink too much into them. From what I've experienced, around the 2200 to 2400 performance starts to taper off. These things are begging for a new chipset they probably wont ever get because of the operon. OC'in one of these should prove dramatic improvements, but not something I would recommend to the poster.

More improtantly, stuff the thing with ram. 2 512 sticks should suffice.

Also, might consider using a EIDE raid array. Moving and managing larger files is much nicer. Look for a 2 channel raid card if your not overly concerned about backups, or find a 4 channel raid card and run a mirrored stripe array. The second option being the more cautious and expensive. This is one area that would probably see a direct benifiet in your work.

For video, if your not playing FPS intensive games, I would go with the Matrox for the excellent quality. I think it can handle games like SimCity

Might as well buy a new case and beefy PSU. Its not really that much more of an expence once your building an entirly new machine, and it feels nice to have everything new and shinny.

Just my two cents. If I was custom building you a solution, these are the considerations I would make.
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Omega65
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Omega65
2,891 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 1:31pm
MP 2200/2400/2600 L2 cache: 256K
MP 2800 L2 cache: 512K

If it's one thing MP systems love it's more L2 cache memory. Now that there's a Barton MP there no reason to buy any other version.

But even in general usage an MP system a far more responsive than any 1P system. A Dual CPU system will laugh at a task that would freeze a single CPU system.
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Omega65 edited : 10 Jun 2003 at 1:45pm .
Rob
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Rob
339 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 1:40pm
But even in general usage an MP system a far more responsive than any 1P system. A Daul CPU system will laugh at a task that would freeze a single CPU system.
Well, I am a dual CPU lover and user. BUT, for her needs, if you sat her down on a new P4, it would do whats needed, and be effiecent about it. Yes dualls are faster, and yes a single P4 would also do the job. Personal preference, I would probably build the dually for myself, but I would always leave the option open for a single P4 or dual xeon. It would do the job well.

Biggest thing I can see here thats overlooked is the HDD subsystem. I think a EIDE raid array would have a noticable effect in the working enviroment. I would build a p4 or AMD happily, but I would stress the raid array.

BTW, I work from a dual 1600 with no interest in CPU upgrades at this time. This is my smallest dually, and its more than comfortable and responsive. I really pound this machine, running more than 3 or 4 'normal' users might put together. Hell, its not uncommon for me to have 40-50 applications going WHILE I stop to take a break and play a FPS. Duals are great, but not the only option.
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edcentric
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edcentric
2,480 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 1:42pm
OK, I haven't kept up.
I know on a G550 you can independently configure monitors.
Can you do that on the 9800? Isn't one of them considered primary and the other secondary? Aren't there limitation on the secondary monitor settings? The parahelia is over priced and slow, but nothing handles multiple monitors and gives as nice of a picture.

It may sound like overkill, but if you earn a living using PS a dual Barton rig will be the ticket.
I know of a few dual rig users here Omega and Muddoctor come to mind.
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Rob
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Rob
339 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 1:50pm
BTW JLunar, some nice work. Just browsing your site.
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JLunar
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JLunar
100 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 4:49pm
Thanks Rob!

and thanks guys. I hadn't considered a dualie system. I'm not exactly where to start on that, but it's a good consideration. Are they any harder to piece and maintain than a single p4? Or do y'all think that a P4 would be easier and yet still sufficient?
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Rob
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Rob
339 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 5:22pm
Duallys aren't any harder than single systems. The cost is higher, expecially when your useing real MP chips and not hacked XP's. Basically, a fast P4 would work, a dual AMD would be nice.

*nudge* Don't forget the raid Now that is a bit trickier, and probably would require some assistance in initial setup. Raid arrays are easy, _good_ arrays are an art.
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Clutch
I'm the man in the box
Clutch
4,805 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 5:31pm
I have never set up a dually system, but rob sounds right, shouldn't be any harder than setting up a single cpu system. As far as case, get you a Chieftec dragon series, their nice, and spring for a good psu, I cannot stress that enough. But it looks like you will have a very nice rig that will make all your friends will drool over, and plus you got the best ppl helping you on it.
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Geeky1
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Geeky1
7,972 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 5:47pm
edcentric... ATi's dual monitor support is excellent, you can configure the displays with different resolutions, refresh rates, and I believe you can use different color depths as well. The ATi drivers natively support screen rotation, so if you had 2 LCDs that had rotateable screens, you could use both of them in portrait mode, or one in portrait and one in landscape, etc. Windows XP lets you change the layout of the monitors in relation to each other- stacked vertically vs. horizontally, diagonally, whatever. Between the XP software and ATi's drivers, you have very flexible dual monitor support, and yes, the displays are totally independent.

I've got a dual cpu system (with 1 cpu in it right now) that I'm very happy with... it's a MSI K7D Master-L with a 2200+, and it's waiting for me to drop in the 2 2500s I just bought... It's been stable as a rock- hasn't crashed once. People who claim that the P4 has any advantages in stability or reliability over the Athlon are simply wrong. I have never, ever had a problem with Athlon systems that could not be traced back to the motherboard, chipset, video card, or other peripheral.

About 2 years ago, I asked for a computer for my birthday (my grandparents buy me 1 thing like that every year that I choose) and I ended up going with an Athlon 1.4GHz. A few months later, my Dad asked me for my opinion on what he should get for some CAD/CAM systems (he works for my Grandfather's business). I recommended essentially what I had- an Asus A7M-266 and a 1.4GHz Athlon, plus a GeForce 3, a 40GB hard drive, and a CD drive (none of which I had- I used SCSI, waited for the R8500, and had a CD-RW and DVD). Since that time, EVERY SINGLE SYSTEM that my Grandfather's business has bought has had an Athlon in it. All 3 of my Grandfather's personal systems are Athlons, as is my Dad's desktop at home. We recently donated 5 systems to Habitat for Humanity- 4 clients and a server. All of them run Athlon XPs, and none of them have ever had any problems either. I've also recommended Athlons to a number of (very) computer illiterate people, and none of them have ever complained. Hell, I see people at computer stores that are looking at P4 boards and I usually tell them to get an Athlon instead, and why. I've got a P4 in my laptop, and I've never had a problem with it either, but the Athlon is cheaper, as fast or faster, and just as stable as a P4.

In terms of extra maintenance, I don't think you need to worry. Keep in mind that high-end motherboards (especially dual processor boards) are designed with an eye towards workstation/server use, where flakiness is totally unacceptable. I don't think you'll have any more maintenance on a dual Athlon system than you would on a single Athlon or P4 system, except of course, for having to blow out one more heatsink with canned air...

Raid is another possibility, and it may be a good idea, since photoshop likes having it's scratch file on a separate drive from Windows' paging file, and it seems to appreciate a fast hard drive. You could consider a RAID array for photoshop and a single drive for Windows and your programs and stuff. The problem with this is that the only way a RAID array is going to be faster than a single disk is if it's in RAID 0... the problem there is that if one of the drives in the array dies, you loose EVERYTHING.... I'd be inclined to stick with one (or a few) fast drives...
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Geeky1
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Geeky1
7,972 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 5:51pm
one or two things I forgot- I've been a little unhappy with my Antec SX1240 (bigger version of the dragon cases- it's got 6 cd and 6 hard drive bays as opposed to 4 and 4) and my Dual CPU system- the hard drive cages tend to get in the way of things... like one of the CPU fans... if you wanted to set up a dual system, I'd actually consider a Lian-Li PC75, one of those "cube" cases (which I've been looking at- I don't like Lian Li all that much) or something similar.

Clutch is right- a good power supply is essential. The bigger the better. It also has to be from a good manufacturer. Stick with AMD Approved units as a basic guideline, and I'd only use an Antec or a PC Power & Cooling unit on a high-power system...
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primesuspect
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primesuspect
27,799 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 5:51pm
I have to say, since I've set up my first SATA RAID with WD Raptor 10K drives, I am very impressed with SATA RAID performance. Of course, those drives have a lot to do with it, but I got 78K Attos without any tweaks or adjustments on a RAID 0 64K/64K.

Aren't you glad you signed up to short-media, Jen?
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Geeky1
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Geeky1
7,972 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 5:56pm
one other thing... Photoshop's favorite thing in the world is RAM. Photoshop is a RAM hog like nothing I've ever seen... I'd consider more ram- like 2, 3 or 4 GB because Photoshop is perfectly happy eating it all...
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muddocktor
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muddocktor
6,250 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 6:22pm

Wink From a dually system owner.

Are they any harder to piece and maintain than a single p4?
I haven't built or messed with a P4, but my MSI dually is no harder to piece together or maintain than a single proc AMD system. Like Rob said, the MPX chipset is getting just a little long in the tooth as far as cutting edge features but is still a viable and potent chipset. If you do PS work a lot, then a dually would definitely suit suit you well and the AMD MPX boards are affordable, unlike a Xeon board. The MXP chipset can also effectively use 3.5 gigs ram, if you really have the need for so much. One thing to keep in mind is that even though MSI says that you can use up to 2 unbuffered sticks of DDR in them, it's best to go with registered ECC on these boards, both for the ECC and also so that you can use all 4 dimm slots.

Also, you might want to give consideration to the ATA RAID option as Rob pointed out. The MSI board has 2-64 bit/66 MHz PCI slots and both 3ware and Promise make 32 bit/66 MHz hardware ATA RAID cards which can run RAID 0, 1, 10, or 5. They also have an onboard controller and their own ram so that they don't rob cycles from the cpu itself to run.

The P4 system is also a viable option with the recent release of the Canterwood chipset boards and lower speed 800 Mhz P4's that have hyperthreading enabled. From what I've been reading in reviews, overclocking the P4 2.4/800 to 3.0/1000 is almost a gimme, with no vcore increase needed at all. Remember that all the 800 fsb P4's are the new D stepping P4 and it seems like they have more headroom than the C stepping P4's. The Canterwood boards like the P4C800 and the IC7-G are also very feature rich, albeit with a hefty price tag(at least as much as the MSI K7D Master L dually board). The Abit IC7 would also be a good choice but is lacking a lot of the goodies found on the "G" version with the lack of onboard lan being the most serious missing item, IMO. If you go P4/Canterwood, then buy the fastest DDR modules you can; Kingston makes some 512 MB DDR3500 sticks, as does Corsair.
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mmonnin
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mmonnin
10,545 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 6:38pm
C and D stepping P4s?? I have never heard of D before. The 2.4A was 400mhz FSB, the 2.4B was a 533 CPU, and the 2.4C is a 800mhz CPU. I dont know of any D versions.
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Omega65
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Omega65
2,891 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 6:57pm
mmonnin said
C and D stepping P4s?? I have never heard of D before. The 2.4A was 400mhz FSB, the 2.4B was a 533 CPU, and the 2.4C is a 800mhz CPU. I dont know of any D versions.
The PC 2.40C, 2.60C, 3.00C are all D1 stepping P4. The P4 800mhz CPUs are all "D1" steppings

The P4 533mhz with Hyperthreading are "C" steppings

the P4 533mhz without Hyperthreading are "B" steppings (and now some 400mhz are also)
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muddocktor
Wandering about
muddocktor
6,250 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 7:10pm
All the 800 fsb P4's are the D1 stepping. The 400 fsb Northwood's have been released in B0 and C1 steppings, also the 533 fsb parts to date. Intel is supposed to be releasing the 533 fsb D1 stepping sometime in the near future from what I've read over at overclockers.com, but it looks like it has been delayed for the high end 533 fsb parts for some reason. I just checked Intel's s-spec finder chart and they are showing some D1 stepping 533 fsb s-specs though. If you check it out though, all the 800 fsb procs are D1 stepping.

Linky:
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JLunar
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JLunar
100 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 7:16pm
primesuspect said
Aren't you glad you signed up to short-media, Jen? :)
Hehe.. of course. where else would I get all this excellent techie info?

A Raid set up, eh? hrm... I was actually considering doing a SCSI setup, but a raid requires more thinking than just a dualie or SCSI...

I think I'll be sticking with the single P4 (easy) - or mebbe a duallie, but I have to do some research there... not sure on that. We shall see. ARGH. so hard to decide some times.
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Geeky1
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Geeky1
7,972 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 7:53pm
do you do multitasking @ all? in that case, a dually would make an extremely substantial difference- an app. can be using 100% of 1 cpu and you still have another cpu free to do whatever...
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JLunar
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JLunar
100 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 8:04pm
multitasking is something I've stopped doing when I use Photoshop at the moment. At least, I have for powerhouse photoshop. When I do web work, I have photoshop, homesite, (talk about a mem leak.. sheesh), ftp, IE, and Flash going.
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MediaMan
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MediaMan
2,691 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 10:06pm

Jen

Quite simply a dual set up will give you the processing power to drive SMP programs like Photoshop. Note that a lot of programs aren't dual processor optimized but the big graphics programs are.

If I remember correctly you are doing a lot of digital inking work and the majority of it is 2D.

A big powerhouse video card will benefit you in games and 3D work such as 3D studio max or Softimage. But normally when messing about with PS and such...there isn't much benefit.

Dual monitors are definitely the way to go. Matrox is the best. The Parhelia may be a bit too much for what you need. I have just worked with Matrox's newest...the P750 which is between the Parhelia and G550. It supports dual digital flat panels if you wish or dual CRT...not something that any other card can do.

Raid will deliver faster access to programs but won't make PS run noticeably faster. As you are a graphic designer I would look at dual drives but have one drive as you program/OS and another drive where your data is kept. That way if the program/OS drive gets nuked for some odd reason...you data doesn't go with it.

A dual processor system is no harder to set up than a single. Dual gives you fast rendering especially in animations. A dual 2600+ would be great with a 2 channel or even 4 channel highpoint raid controller.

SCSI is beaucoup $$$$$ and I would only recommend that for video editing.
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Rob
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Rob
339 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 10:24pm
I agree that SCSI is very nice, but slightly overkill. While SCSI will mop the floor with EIDE in a server enviroment, with tons of multiple small file access and users, EIDE does a very good job of moving large continious files quickly (i.e. your 50M 100M images)

Basically, you've heard the opinions of some of the brightest minds in the business. While some of the views might differ, I think you should have a really solid idea to work off. Any of the recomendations would be sufficient to power your workstation comfortably. Going from a 500Mhz to ANY of the systems talked about is like going from a old pinto to a new ferrari. Now, you just have to set a budget and buy accordingly
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Rob
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Rob
339 Posts
10 Jun 2003, 10:32pm
For a good example, while running my linux workstation, there have been times I've loaded win 2k pro in a virtual container. Basically, running a entire computer inside of mine. In windows, I can easily have photoshop, PSP, dreamweaver and flash MX, IE, etc. all at once. I have to edit dreamweaver templates and flash templates sometimes, otherwise you'll never catch me dead in windows I use photoshop and/or PSP just because its there, but normally Im a gimp guy.

Then on my desktop, Ive have my mozilla browser, basic text editors, and usually MP3's playing.

This is probably somewhat simular to what you would experience, plus the power it takes to run multiple OS's at one time.

I monitor all of my system resources always. CPU load, disk activity, ram and swap usage, network traffic, etc. I'm running a dual 1600 with 786 of ram. First bottle neck I hit is HDD access, and the result is slower opening programs and files. I can watch it peg the HDD's and wait. Second is ram, and only usually takes effect when I have 3 or more OS's running at once doing software testing.

Any of the systems above are as powerfull or more so than what I'm running, and the first thing I run out of is HDD access. I'll *nudge* ya again to consider a raid array, but any of these options is going to be a rocket ship compaired to what your working with now.
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MediaMan
Driven by Socket 462754939940
MediaMan
2,691 Posts
11 Jun 2003, 12:02am

Jen

In follow up to the dual vs. single question. Here is the question that you should answer for yourself.

1) Are you rendering 3D animations that are long (over 10 seconds) or complicated (ray tracing, lighting effects, etc)?

2) Are you mainly working in SMP aware programs. (programs that are written to take advantage of dual processors)?

If yes...you would benefit from dual processors. If you do decide to go dual processors then the MSI or ASUS boards work well. You will need a raid controller even if you don't need to raid drives. Why? Because you will run out of headers for such things like cd drives, burners, dvd etc. Only the Gigabyte dual board comes with a promise raid controller built in.

BIG power user video cards only benefit you for 1) gaming 2) real time or nearer to real time manipulation of a 3D model on screen. Rendering any effect in a 2D program such as Photoshop..or a 3D program such as Softimage...has nothing to do with the video card...

In otherwords...no need to overkill on your video card if you don't hardcore game 24/7. If you want real power for 3D apps such as autocad or Softimage then step up to ATI or NVIDIA's professional offering...again..big bux there. (Quadro or FireGL)

Will a lesser video card do you?...of course.

SCSI...as said before...nice but $$$$$$$$.

Get a removable EIDE drive bay...they are cheap...$20. Best way to have hdd archive. No need to get the fancy ones will LCD displays and all that...and there is no performance loss.

DVD burner...eventually...they are still pricey now but eventually it will be good for archiving big project folders.

RAID? Your call...I'd still stick with an OS/Program drive and your data on another drive.

In non smp programs the difference between dual and single processor is pretty negligable. Don't buy the top end of either processor series. Always step down 1 or 2 levels and save huge bucks. Top of the line processors...their premiere ones...are always for those who absolutely need that 1/2 frame per second more.

Again...hope this helps.
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JLunar
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JLunar
100 Posts
11 Jun 2003, 3:36am
given the answer to Mediaman's two questions are 1) no and 2) only Photoshop, I think a single procesor should be fine. I don't do any 3D at this point.

I will be having a primary and secondary drive, (er.. and maybe tertiary). And while SCSI is expensive, I'm not sure I can go BACK to regular drives. *g* (I currently have 2 SCSI drives).

but I probably won't be buying drives new right now. I have a couple 40gig 7200 drives and other random drives to play with. There's always a few sitting in the house.

MediaMan > since I know you've had lots of matrox experience, would you say the P750 is better than a 9700 for a photoshop user/moderate gamer like myself? I like Matrox. It's just not so hot for gaming.

I'm waiting for DVD-RW to go down. it is in my future plan, however. it's just not necessary at the moment. So I'll be sticking with my old CD-RW for now.
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JLunar
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JLunar
100 Posts
11 Jun 2003, 3:41am
And guys? Thanks. y'all have been heaps helpful.
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Geeky1
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Geeky1
7,972 Posts
11 Jun 2003, 3:54am
Here are some ideas (all prices from Newegg except where noted)

Antec Performance Plus 1080AMG mid tower w/430w PS- $118.99
MSI K7D Master-L Dual AMD CPU motherboard: $195
2 AMD Athlon MP 2400+ CPUs- $158 x2, $316
4x Kingston 512MB PC2100 ECC Reg. DDR- $99 x4, $396
ATi (Built By ATi) Radeon 9800 Pro 128mb- $389
2x 120GB/8MB 7200RPM Maxtor IDE hard drives- $113 x2, $226
2x Thermalright SLK-800A heatsinks- $37.99 x2, $75.98
7x Enermax Adjustable 80mm fans- $5.99 x7, $41.93
2x Antec "Cobra Cable" A26 rounded ATA-133 cables- $12.95 x2, $25.90
Antec "Cobra Cable" F16 rounded floppy cable- $8.99

Total- $1793.77

If you wanted to go with a single-p4 system instead, I'd get:

Antec Performance Plus 1080AMG mid tower w/430w PS- $118.99
Gigabyte GA-8KNXP (first P4 board I've ever seen that I REALLY want)- $227
Retail Box 3.0GHz/800MHz P4- $417
6x Corsair 512MB PC3200 Value Select DDR RAM- $79 x6, $474
ATi (Built By ATi) Radeon 9800 Pro 128mb- $389
2x 120GB/8MB 7200RPM Maxtor IDE hard drives- $113 x2, $226
Thermalright SLK-900U heatsink- $46.99
5x Enermax Adjustable 80mm fans- $5.99 x5, $29.95
Enermax Adjustable 92mm fan (for SLK-900)- $6.45
4x Antec "Cobra Cable" A26 Rounded ATA-133 cables- $12.95 x2, $51.80
Antec "Cobra Cable" F16 rounded floppy cable- $8.99

Total- $1996.17

Or you could go with a single AMD system:

Antec Performance Plus 1080AMG mid tower w/430w PS- $118.99
ASUS A7N8X-Deluxe motherboard: $127.99
AMD Athlon XP 3200+ Retail CPU- $452
3x Corsair 512MB PC3200 Value Select DDR RAM- $79 x3- $237
ATi (Built By ATi) Radeon 9800 Pro 128mb- $389
2x 120GB/8MB 7200RPM Maxtor IDE hard drives- $113 x2, $226
Thermalright SLK-800A heatsink- $37.99
6x Enermax Adjustable 80mm fans- $5.99 x6, $35.94
2x Antec "Cobra Cable" A26 rounded ATA-133 cables- $12.95 x2, $25.90
Antec "Cobra Cable" F16 rounded floppy cable- $8.99

Total- $1659.80

The Dual AMD system will be easily faster than either of the single cpu systems, probably by a factor of 1.5 or more... however, that Gigabyte board (especially the Ultra version) is soooooo nice... IDE RAID, SATA, U320 SCSI 6-phase power regulation, 6 DDR slots... ooh, I want one... that board is enough to make me really want a p4...

The Athlon 3200 system would be about as fast as the P4, and it's $300 cheaper... but any of those would be outstanding systems for just about everything- DV, photoshop, games, whatever... oh, by the way... you won't need that SB Live if you get the A7N8X-Deluxe... the onboard audio on it is better than the SB's audio...
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Geeky1 edited : 11 Jun 2003 at 5:42am .
MediaMan
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MediaMan
2,691 Posts
11 Jun 2003, 4:51am

Jen

Remember those prices just above my head here are in USD and I believe you are in Canuckland just like me. Do the conversion.

Now the answer to your video card question is based on, you guessed it, answering a question for yourself


1) Does a moderate gamer mean that you play a game every blue moon but when you do...you like to frag at high frame rates...or at least really decent.

YES: don't go P750 or even Parhelia.

2) Are you planning for two DIGITAL flat panel screens...not DFP with the regular SVGA connection...but the digital cable connection.

YES?: Go P750 and forget about gaming.

3) As you know...when graphic and designers LOVE to have really really good and expensive monitors. If I were designing a mid priced graphic workstation it would be with the P750 and a pair of CRT monitors. (CRT is still better than DFP for resolution at this moment during fine detail graphic work).

But you want a little bit of gaming horsepower. ATI 9000PRO is in a great price range and I beleive it will support independent resolutions for dual CRT or the standard of 1 Digitial plus one CRT.

If getting a single processor system...AMD and I just love the ZENITH CHAINTECH 7NJS board as it is very stable and comes with a LOT of goodies.

Be advised that the NFORCE series of any manufacturer's boards are a little quirky for sound. But NFORCE gives you the dual channel memory option.

Remember to match memory with the processor. A 2600+ 333 Front side bus AMD processor should be matched with two 512 MB sticks of DDR333. You may even want to step up one processor level if the budget can afford it.


Hope this helps even more.
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mmonnin
Veteran Icrontian
mmonnin
10,545 Posts
11 Jun 2003, 5:27am
Take a step down on the dual MPs and you can save a bundle. IE a 2400+ (2ghz) is $158, almost half of 2800s.
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Geeky1
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Geeky1
7,972 Posts
11 Jun 2003, 5:43am
edited it... with 2400s, the dual athlon system is cheaper than the P4 system (altho the p4 has a full gig more ram...)
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Geeky1
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Geeky1
7,972 Posts
11 Jun 2003, 5:44am
even with MP2600s it'd still be cheaper- 2 2600s are $410...

Am I the only one that finds it funny that u can buy 2 2600s for less than the price of 1 3200?
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mmonnin
Veteran Icrontian
mmonnin
10,545 Posts
11 Jun 2003, 2:13pm
Hehe, thats what top of the line does to ya. Newegg didnt have 2600+ MPs so I used 2400+ as the example.
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JLunar
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JLunar
100 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 7:33pm
I decided to downgrade... trying to be reasoable where I don't *really* need a ubercomp. (but I want it kinda...)
updated config:

CHANGES
- Pentium 4 2.4B GHz
- ASUS P4PE Intel 845PE w/ IEEE, Serial ATA, RAID, Gigabit LAN
- PSU : Vantec, Enermax and if you can get it Zalman. (going to see)
- Combo cd/dvd to just a cd/dvd reader - no recording. I'll get a DVD-CD combo write drive later.

SAME
- Radeon 9800 Pro
- 2xPC3200 512 RAM (the kingston is fine)

It's a seksi board. but I'm kinda sad that I'm down grading to no hyperthreading.
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JLunar edited : 12 Jun 2003 at 7:36pm .
mmonnin
Veteran Icrontian
mmonnin
10,545 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 7:55pm
Downgrading to a bottleneck is what I see.

RAM bandwidth - 3.2gb/s
CPU bandwidth - 4.2bg/s

It should have a 3:2 ratio in the BIOS. But thats pretty much wasted CPU. Its waiting for data from the RAM.

It does HT support tho.
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Geeky1
No comment.
Geeky1
7,972 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 8:00pm
Don't go with the P4PE, you'll kick yourself for it later. The only two decent chipsets for the Pentium 4 are the Canterwood/i875 and the i865. The 845 is a single-channel DDR chipset, so you're cutting the P4's memory bandwidth in half, and by doing that, you'll essentially be castrating it. The P4's performance is entirely dependent on it's memory bandwidth, and it's demands can only be met with RDRAM or dual-channel DDR. At least get an 865 based motherboard....
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JLunar
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JLunar
100 Posts
13 Jun 2003, 4:21pm
>_< bottle neck. d'oh.

*goes to check the i865
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edcentric
Must keep folding
edcentric
2,480 Posts
13 Jun 2003, 5:14pm
JL, here is where to go for features/strengths and weaknesses
http://anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.html?i=1831

Your approach sounds rational. The video card is one other place to look. I have seen some real good prices on GF4 4200 cards. Yes they are old school, but they still work great.
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