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Ed^Chigliak
Icrontic Technician
Ed^Chigliak
81 Posts
11 Jun 2003, 7:09pm

Vortex water cooler - space curve implosion style

I got this idea to rig a glass egg-shaped water resevoir above my PC in which a motor driven paddle lit with submersible leds induces a visible vortex which then flows into a copper whorl pipe (tapered spiral implosion tube) in which the water inwinds along natural space curves thus cooling down to its anomaly temperature of 4 deg C as the density and velocity are amplified. A copper water block is connected to the outlet of the whorl pipe and the CPU receives optimized high velocity cold water. The water then returns to a top side entry connection on the egg shaped resevoir assisted by the natural vaccuum formed in the wake of the vortex. The only system energy input is the relatively slow turning paddle so I expect it will operate extremely quietly. Obviously I will be bolting my PC to the floor during testing to safeguard against the levitational forces in the vortex core which could pose a serious problem.

I'm wondering what size bolts I should use to bold everything down. The floor is timber board construction on joists although I could move my PC into the kitchen which has a solid concrete floor. I don't know if this is the right place to post but if anyone has any experience with this cooling method I would like to here from you. I don't want to damage my PC if I can avoid it.

Thanks in advance... Ed^
__________________ Theory... when water is inwound down a whorl-pipe toward my CPU along a cycloid-spiral space cuve its density increased naturally through coactive physical influences and the water approaches its anomaly point of +4 deg C so my CPU temp is quite literally as cool as a vortex.
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timinator
Icrontic Technician
timinator
61 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 2:03am
uh, yeah, build me one of those. thats a real sweet idea

as for bolts what is the mass of the water that is rotating at what speed? then just use the rotational motion equations to calculate force. then you can figure out what type of bolts to use
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Geeky1
No comment.
Geeky1
7,972 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 4:09am
I like science a lot (at least as much as I like computers...) so this caught my attention... I'm not familiar with the concept behind what you're talking about though. How does putting water into a vortex cool it below ambient?
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dNA3D
Innocent Inhabitant
dNA3D
69 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 5:24am
Two words..... HUH?????

__________________ There's no replacement for displacement (Brain size in particular) - dNA3D
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Ed^Chigliak
Icrontic Technician
Ed^Chigliak
81 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 10:15am
Originally posted by Geeky1
How does putting water into a vortex cool it below ambient?
A somewhat over simplified explanation of why the temperature reduces below ambient in a vortex can be gleemed from what you know already about the properties and behaviour of water when heated or cooled. School (college) science lessons taught us that when water is warmed it expands becoming less dense and so rises. Similarly when water is cooled it contracts increasing in density and sinks. Therefore a relationship exists between temperature and density but in this situation we are changing the temperature which results in a corresponding change in density. It would therefore stand to reason that if we could to change the density of the water by another method then there would be a corresponding change in temperature.

What you really want to know is why does the density change?

Unfortunately this is rather complex issue to discuss in full but if you were to imagine a method of increase water density through motion I hope you can see how an inwinding spiral vortex down a whorl tube where physical space becomes an increasingly scare commodity the outcome would be water at a higher density.

The anomoly point of 4 deg C is well known and below this temperature water expands again before changing state to solid ice. This is unique as far as I am aware and one should never understimate the weirdness of water!

HUH!!!! - two words?

Now I like my alternative science stuff but surely that's just one word unless perhaps I've measured / percieved it incorrectly. Quantum English perhaps?

Ed^
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timinator
Icrontic Technician
timinator
61 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 2:20pm
i have a question, what speed is the vortex rotating at, and how much power is the paddle motor pulling?
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Enisada
Ascending
Enisada
212 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 3:25pm
Yeah wouldn't the water in the vortex have to be moving at a pretty high rate of speed???
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Ed^Chigliak
Icrontic Technician
Ed^Chigliak
81 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 7:58pm
I shall try to answer your questions as best I can although you should realise that I have many unknowns myself. At this stage I do not for example know for a given design temperature drop what the overall size of the system would need to be. Depending on the outcome of further investigation & experimentation it could be an architectural scale feature starting on the roof of my house! I simply do not know yet so this isn't like something I could build for you tomorrow even if I wanted to and it will not be like anything portable for LAN gaming My other concern is the geometry of the whorl pipe which must be shaped and tapered in such a way that allows the water to flow naturally with a minimum frictional resistance. I have read about spiral tubes were friction dips below zero so I'll base it on that tp start with. The optimal shape of the pipe however could be elusive to say the least and each variation in geometric proportions would require the construction of a prototype that can be tested. On the other hand the shape may not be overly critical so long as the vortex holds good for the length of the aparatus. Again I do not know. Calculating and predicting flow patterns is a complex and largely unsolved business and I'm no mathematician or scientist. I have a bath and when I pull the plug the water forms a vortex so there is hope that it is not that difficult after all. I am willing to set my sights quite low so long as it looks good and even if I achieve only half of one degree temperature drop I will be happy but hopefully I can do much better and get close to 4 deg C at outlet.

OK your question about the speed of the vortex. Well the way I understand it the vortex will be by its very nature large and slowly rotating at the top and highly focused and rotating at great speed at the bottom. We are paddling the slow and large water volume in the egg resevoir and I guess 30-60 rpm will be more than enough to trigger the vortex.

Take two 2 litre clear plastic pop bottles. Glue the caps together with stong waterproof adhesive and drill a hole through the joined caps. Assemble the bottles into an hour glass arrangement with one bottle three quarts full of water. Tipping water from one to the other a vortex does not readily form but a couple of swishes in the general direction triggers healthy vortex which once initiated requires little or no further energy input. Gravity is obviously at work here so high RPM's are probably not required. I will most likely use a variable speed power drill with and attach some sort of paddle so I can test various speeds.

Thanks for the questions you are helping me think through some of the concepts I need to grasp.

Ed^
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Geeky1
No comment.
Geeky1
7,972 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 8:04pm
Is this something that's been proven to exist in a laboratory, or is this just a theory of yours, because from what I understand, if anything, I'd expect the temperature of the water to increase as it's compressed- air compressors get very hot... the air only gets cold when it expands coming out of the nozzle...
__________________ -MCCCXXXVII
"Ignorance is forgivable. Stupidity is inexcusable."

Resident Dual CPU Addict: 3 working duallies, 2 more in the parts drawer, and looking to add an Opteron dually to that list as soon as I can find a good motherboard...
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Cool Canuck
ICF has been.
Cool Canuck
435 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 8:13pm
An interesting concept and not without merit. I somehow find difficulty with the following:
The water then returns to a top side entry connection on the egg shaped resevoir assisted by the natural vaccuum formed in the wake of the vortex. The only system energy input is the relatively slow turning paddle so I expect it will operate extremely quietly.
Two things strike me.
One is that once the votex is started, there should be no further requirement for the paddle assist.
Two is that you seem to be trying for perpetual motion which has not been accomplished yet. For the water to lift it's own weight back up to the resevoir is a lofty goal.

I really like this original thinking.
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Cool Canuck
ICF has been.
Cool Canuck
435 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 8:22pm
Originally posted by Geeky1
Is this something that's been proven to exist in a laboratory, or is this just a theory of yours, because from what I understand, if anything, I'd expect the temperature of the water to increase as it's compressed- air compressors get very hot... the air only gets cold when it expands coming out of the nozzle...
Not sure this is the same thing. You can compress gases but not liquids (Hydraulics). I don't believe increasing the densisty is the same thing. Having said that, we calculate air density by using it's pressure and temperature.
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Enisada
Ascending
Enisada
212 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 8:27pm
Isn't he just trying to get the temps of the water to go down using this vortex theory?? Just use a small pump to keep the water moving. Man that would be so cool if it worked. Think have the water just leave the radator just being recently cooled to now head to this vortex resevoir cooler. If it works man sign me up, this looks pretty good on paper...Hopefuly it can get off the ground...
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Ed^Chigliak
Icrontic Technician
Ed^Chigliak
81 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 8:41pm
Is this something that's been proven to exist in a laboratory,
I don't know about laboratory work but it has been proven in the forests of Austria by Viktor Schrauberger in the 1950's who designed non linear log flumes with vortex inducing turns and vanes to transport wood that would not otherwise float.

theory of yours
NO not my theory... I'm just a gamer / PC enthusiast who had the misfortune to read some books. Should have stuck to the games but I was getting tired with the same old same old. You know the score RTS FPS RPG... no visionary new stuff so I though I'd give books a chance.


I'd expect the temperature of the water to increase as it's compressed
That makes two then because I thought the very same thing but apparently not the case with a vortex. Viktor would say that the compresser works destructively against the natural flow of energy in nature hence the inefficiency which results in heat.
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Geeky1
No comment.
Geeky1
7,972 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 10:42pm
hmm... well then all I can do is say that you ought to try it out and see what happens, preferably on some worthless POS computer first, of course... (ya got any spare P4 systems sitting around? )
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Ed^Chigliak
Icrontic Technician
Ed^Chigliak
81 Posts
12 Jun 2003, 10:57pm
Originally posted by Cool Canuck
An interesting concept and not without merit. I really like this original thinking.
Thanks for the good vibes... now if everyone would like to form a circle the resulting thought vortex should have this idea atleast opproved or dismissed in principle before the week is out. I certainly don't want folk laughing at a giant egg on the roof of my house without the equal and opposite smugg feeling of achieving my goal to cancel out the ridicule.

Originally posted by Cool Canuck
You seem to be trying for perpetual motion which has not been accomplished yet. For the water to lift it's own weight back up to the resevoir is a lofty goal.
You had me panic for a moment throwing the perpertual motion into the mix but that's great because you've made me realise how stupid I have been. There is an obvious secondary energy input in the from of heat from the CPU so the hot water off the water block will be less dense and rise back to the egg to be reborn as cold water by the paddle and forces of gravity. This is plumbing technology I can copy with so the project is still green for go unless for some reason there is no such thing as submersible LEDS to make the vortex look pretty.

Originally posted by Enisada
Think have the water just leave the radator just being recently cooled to now head to this vortex resevoir cooler. [/b]
I'm all for a radiator fitted before the egg which would offload heat to the atmosphere prior to water re-entering the vortex. Post very much appreciated now I see a hybrid system is better. No plans to intruduce a pump just yet. I'll give gravity plumbing a chance first.
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timinator
Icrontic Technician
timinator
61 Posts
13 Jun 2003, 2:18am
i have a couple more question after thinking about this.

1) Is the egg shaped thing really the best shape for the changing radius of a water vortex? if you could use a cone, it would be bunches easier to make.

2) If the output water is rising in the center of the vortex from the coldblock, and if it is, it would diffuse its heat energy to the incoming water on the way up, become more dense and join the vortex thus creating a one way street downward? (or did i miss something)

3) you mention putting it on the roof.....how big does it have to be to achieve your temperatures?

4) the work making the egg thing might be equal to finding some gallium (i think thats what it was), putting it on a disk, and rotating it in and out of a magnetic field to cool a normal water setup (although slightly radioactive :-) ) sadly, ive figured this one would never fly what with the radioactive factor

btw-leds are waterproof (just dont short the leads in water)

good luck!
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imported_L0ki
New to the neighborhood
imported_L0ki
3 Posts
13 Jun 2003, 3:50am

Wow

This is seriously one of the most interesting projects I've ever heard of. The only real issue I can think of is keeping the liquid flowing (we can't have perpetual motion so we have to find a source for your energy). The gravitational forces on both sides will be equal and if the water doesn't have someplace to go (down) the vortex will never form. But heat would cause the water to rise, so theoretically the system could be run entirely from the heat emitted by your cpu...Somehow I doubt a cpu will generate enough heat to run this though. So an auxillary pump will probably be needed on the pipe coming from the cpu up to the reservoir.

Who knows though, none of us are experts on this and it might not take as much energy as I'd have thought. I'd love to see a water cooling system that chills to 4c and runs entirely on the heat emitted by the cpu

Oh wait when the water hits the cpu and warms up it will become less dense and apply pressure on both sides on the water block which i think will cause it to backup and stop the vortex, a pump on either side on the water block would again keep the water flowing the right direction.

Oh one last thing, if you have any pictures of what the contraption looks like i'd be interested, it all sounds too good I guess i'll do a little research on it myself
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Ed^Chigliak
Icrontic Technician
Ed^Chigliak
81 Posts
13 Jun 2003, 3:13pm
Drawing submitted for comments as requested.

Ed^
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Ed^Chigliak
Icrontic Technician
Ed^Chigliak
81 Posts
13 Jun 2003, 3:20pm
I shall try that again... if there is still no attachment could somebody please explain how to get the image uploaded.

Thanks

Ed^
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Flintstone
Hurricane Survivor (X4!)
Flintstone
535 Posts
13 Jun 2003, 4:03pm
As a vehicle for comparison, I suggest a closed system that exists today where you simply substitute the "Vortex Machine" for the pump (compressor). That system is an air conditioner. The difference being the gas to liquid to gas conversion, but that difference is in the Vortex Machine particulars. Otherwise, it seems to be the same. The problem seems to be to me the removal of the heat as the liquid is "compressed". As you increase the density of the water, that heat has to go somewhere or it will transfer right back into the water, effectively decreasing the entropy of the system that you are trying to build.

Just some thoughts,
Flint
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Geeky1
No comment.
Geeky1
7,972 Posts
13 Jun 2003, 5:42pm
convection is not generally a real fast process... you'll probably need a pump to remove the hot water from the water block...
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imported_L0ki
New to the neighborhood
imported_L0ki
3 Posts
13 Jun 2003, 7:39pm
hmm, the only part that really bothers me now is where the heat goes as the water cools in the whorl pipe, is it transferred to the pipe? if so you may need some way to deal with the hot whorl pipe...

I've been doing a little reading about this stuff but all the sites about it i've come across have been like translated from swedish and done fairly poorly. I guess i'll just find a copy of "Living Water" and try to get a better grip on it.
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Ed^Chigliak
Icrontic Technician
Ed^Chigliak
81 Posts
14 Jun 2003, 1:16pm
Attached... another design concept

This one is much more interesting but construction is more difficult. The repeated re-cycling of the water through whorl pipes should bring the temperature of the entire volume of water down to 4 deg C even if the temperature drop resulting from a single passage through the whorl pipe is only small.

If anyone has access to or finds good links to data on density or temperature changes due to vortexial movement of energy please post. Text books on thermo-dynamics & thermo-fluids are expensive but I need more information.

Where does the heat go? I can see that it is is a closed loop system as you rightly point out and this causes me some concern. Unfortunately at this point in time I do not know. Fortunately the vortex resevoir as a project works on a purely visual level too so as a case mod of some description it's still cool. I will do my best to ensure that the temperature is also cool quite literally but you can appreciate that the dynamics of the system are complex.

I don't know where the heat goes. I would very much like to confirm the basics with data from more convetional science or laboratory research. Viktor's thinking and theory is inter-dimensional and more in line with modern day quantum physics with something approaching religious belief thrown in for good measure.

He built a good many practical machines no longer in existance either stolen and destroyed in WW2 or self destructed as levitational forces sent them skywards! His ideas were stolen and used to devolop jet engines... the science seems in most parts plausible and his life story is facinating.
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imported_L0ki
New to the neighborhood
imported_L0ki
3 Posts
18 Jun 2003, 7:25am
Hmm, that last design looks really plausible. As for the heat, I think it has to go into the closest most obvious place, the whorl pipe, and normally when you have a hot and a cold next to each other they come to an equilibrium. But the way the whorl pipe works it would force heat out of the water and keep heat from entering it, so the whorl pipe and water would never reach an equilibrium, but the exchange of heat adds order to the system (consentrating heat) which violates some laws of entropy I think. A system always moves from a state of order to a state of chaos, equilibrium being the highest level of chaos. So that leaves two questions, will it work? and how will you cool the whorl pipes, or can you just let them get hot (will the heat collect to the point where they melt? Since it has no where to go they just might).

Good luck to you on it though, it'll be the sweetest water cooling system ever if it works.
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rodbarrett
New to the neighborhood
rodbarrett
1 Posts
3 Aug 2003, 4:36pm

Interesting concept

hi

i have been doing quite a bit of research recently into the vortex theories, and would like to know if this project is still being carried out?

if so, i would perhaps like to help with some more ideas that i have been working on, that maybe could help.

kind regards

roderick
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