Dress as you want to be seen

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the_technocrat

Veteran Icrontian

1,580 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 2:32am

Dress as you want to be seen

OK, not necessarily a fitness thread, but more of a physical appearance thread, so this seems to be the most appropriate. I've been trying to educate myself in men's fashion because frankly, I'd like to look more professional, put together, and generally look like someone that deserves the female attention / respect / salary I'd like to be at. No, I'm not relying on looks alone to get the things I want, but for example, I'll have a Master's degree in June, so it probably wouldn't hurt to professional-ize up the image a bit. My thinking is that you have to get in the door with this stuff first, then the hard work takes over.

I once worked at a place that hired its Director of IT cause he was a golf buddy of the CIO. $120K/year. So yeah, not all that out there to want to dress as you'd like to be seen.

Big thanks to BuddyJ and Thrax for shooting me links every now and then. I do read them, and I'm going to try to summarize what they say here, cause I'm sure I'm not alone. Take them or leave them, I'm not validating this stuff because I'm no expert - just keeping track.

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the_technocrat

Veteran Icrontian

1,580 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 3:08am

GQ, December 1996

My father believed, absolutely, in the old saw, at once terrifying and liberating, that “clothes make the man,” and so did his friends, and so everything they wore had to tell a story, and the story had to be about them, because otherwise, the world was never going to hear it. That’s really my father’s first fashion tip, come to think of it: that everything you wear has to add up, that everything has to make sense and absolutely f’ing signify. He did not come up in the current culture of corporate individualism, so he could not let himself off the hook by wearing some ****ing T-shirt that says NIKE on the front or CHICAGO BULLS; he has never been able to understand the utility of dressing, intentionally, like a slob

Summary

1. The turtleneck is the most flattering thing a man can wear.

The turtleneck is the most flattering thing a man can wear because it strips a man down to himself—because it forces a man to project himself. The turtleneck does not decorate, like at tie, or augment, like a sport coat, or in any way distract from what my father calls a man’s “presentation”; rather, it fixes a man in sharp relief and puts his face on a pedestal—first literally, then figuratively. It is about isolation, the turtleneck is; it is about essences and first causes; it is about the body and the face, and that’s all it’s about...the turtleneck is the most flattering thing a man can wear, then, because it establishes the very standard for flattery in fashion, which is that nothing you wear should ever hide what you want to reveal, or reveal what you want to hide.

...

Irony? Irony is no answer, because in my father’s view a man is not allowed irony in the wearing of clothes. Irony is for women, because for them clothes are all about play, all about tease and preamble—because for them dressing is all about undressing. For a man, though, clothes both determine and mark his place in the world; they are about coming from nakedness, rather than going to it—and so irony spells diminution, because irony says that you don’t mean it…and you have to mean it. You have to mean what you wear.

2. There is nothing like a fresh [sun]burn. (err, okay. I agree with this one, but all things in moderation. Cancer will come soon enough)

3. Always wear white to the face.

Ah yes, of course—wear white to the face. A white shirt or a shirt with a white collar. Why? Because it’s flattering, that’s why. Because you can’t wear a turtleneck all the time, or even a lot of the time—that’s the tragedy of the turtlenecks—but you can always wear white to the face.

4. Make sure to show plenty of cuff. (french cuff in the article)

5. The better you look, the more money you make.

(and some extra)

The only excuse for a man to grow a beard is if he has a weak chin or acne—that’s what I know from my father. Make sure to splash some cologne on your privates—that’s another thing. Never wear navy blue and black—that’s what I came to know on the morning of my wedding, when I wore a navy blue suit and black shoes, and my father said, “What are you—a policeman?” (“But Dad, what kind of shoes should you wear?” “With a navy blue suit? Navy blue shoes.”)

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the_technocrat edited : 26 Feb 2008 at 3:26am .

fatcat

sasquatch wannabe

3,989 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 3:24am

Good info. Thank god I wear a uniform for work or I wouldnt get paid much

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the_technocrat

Veteran Icrontian

1,580 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 3:24am

Versatile Pieces You Can't Live Without

Summary

Navy suit

It’s equally appropriate for daytime activities or evening ones, and you’ll have no problem pairing it with bright clothing or accessories like a tie.

For important meetings, job interviews or non-formal evening soirees, make this suit your go-to ensemble. During the day, in chillier seasons like fall, winter or early spring, try layering this blazer over Gap’s red cashmere V-neck sweater and slip on a pair of jeans for a casual, yet pulled together, look.

White dress shirt

Everyone looks good in one, and it’s a classic that pairs with practically anything. In fact, if you can afford it, buy three when you find one that looks good on you -- that way you’ll always have a clean one and you can cut down on the time you’ll have to spend shopping now and in the future.

Pair it with jeans for a crisp and clean all-American look that works day and night. At the office, layer this shirt underneath a brightly colored sweater and team it with some dress pants or jeans, depending on the dress code. For a smart, casual occasion, add either your navy or gray blazer, and for an occasion that requires something dressier, wear this piece with a navy suit and have fun playing around with the color of your tie.

Polo shirt

Don’t think you have to get all fancy and shell out the money for a designer shirt because an inexpensive one will work just fine.

On weekends and in the summertime, this shirt looks amazing simply paired with some blue jeans. When you need to take things up a notch, throw on a [...] gray blazer to create an ensemble that exudes effortless cool.

Jeans

buy three pairs when you find perfect-fitting jeans that you love. Before you head to the shop, however, you should be aware that a dark-rinse jean is more versatile and figure flattering than light-wash denim.

For timeless style that will impress everyone, but that’s far from boring, mix these jeans with a white dress shirt layered under a brightly colored sweater, as adding a bit of color will really make this basic outfit pop and seem fresh again.

Jacket

Coming in at a close second to the navy blazer is the gray blazer in terms of wardrobe versatility. A strong, masculine color, gray mixes just as well with other neutrals as it does with both bright and pastel shades.

At the office, wear it with jeans and a white dress shirt and simply add some edgy sneakers when you’re going out at night. When temperatures drop, try pairing this blazer with [a] V-neck sweater for a lively twist on a traditional combination

Cashmere sweater (meh)

a V-neck cashmere sweater is versatile and should be a staple in every man’s closet. If you can, spend a bit more on this piece, but if you can’t, don’t worry since plenty of companies make great ones with affordable price tags.

red version is our favorite because the intensity of the hue will make your outfits more interesting, but red is not a color that will seem dated in a year’s time.

Classic coat

A peacoat in a color like black or camel is another item that’s a must when it comes to building a functional wardrobe with only a few pieces.

chic enough to wear with a suit, but it’s also fantastic for classing up a basic ensemble of jeans and a white dress shirt. A word to the wise: When searching for a peacoat, do try to buy it on sale because you can get some incredible steals that way. And although you’ll own it forever, this piece isn’t one you need to splurge on.

(and...)

If you’re going to have less in your closet, don’t be afraid to spend a bit more. Having said that, know which pieces are better to splurge on and which ones you can save on. A navy suit, for example, is something you definitely shouldn’t be afraid to fork over some dough for, whereas you can be much thriftier when it comes to casual cotton clothes, an everyday blazer or sweater and your jeans.

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the_technocrat

Veteran Icrontian

1,580 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 3:25am

Quoting fatcat

Good info. Thank god I wear a uniform for work or I wouldnt get paid much

I think the USPS workers get a pass on the workplace dress, but there's always the ladies after work waiting for a package from fatcat.

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Leonardo

F@H Reign of Terror is back!

14,696 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 4:35am

Fatcat, do you have hairy calves and black socks to go with those USPS blue shorts?

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Lincoln

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15,963 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 4:41am

Dude, awesome thread. Do want Life article.

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fatcat

sasquatch wannabe

3,989 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 4:57am

Quoting Leonardo

Fatcat, do you have hairy calves and black socks to go with those USPS blue shorts?

no black socks

and teh womenz luv teh uniform

no comments on the hairy calves yet.

AND LIFE ARTICLE GET ON IT TT

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Nomad

3,503 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 5:41am

To be honest, fashion is not something you can go digging around in 1996 to find out about, it is very much a whim of the season. However, when it comes to being 'dressier,' there is a great deal that has not change. Now, there is a large emphasis on a more classic feel with better fitting clothes, a far cry from the '80s shoulder pad craze.

Basically, if you're looking to bump up your style a bit:

- Beards are perfectly acceptable if you keep them neat. I would rather see a beard on someone than razor burn that would make me have PTSD.

- FITTING CLOTHING should be the single most important part of any man's clothing. If you're wearing baggy clothes to hide weight, lose it. You don't have to wear a twelve year old's shirt, but the fit of a garment is important.

- Dark wash jeans, they are extremely versatile and go well in the summer and winter.

- This is a preference of mine, but a brown banded and black banded leather watch. Steel watches are fine if you're a diver in my opinion, but you see them everywhere on any person who has a watch. Watches should also be simple, sleek, elegant. They are meant to tell time, not wind speed.

- In terms of suit style, a black suit should be a staple for every man. It goes with every occasional from weddings to funerals. Black suit with white shirt and black tie is a classic combination that seemingly few people go to. Try pairing a black tie with another color shirt like pink, French blue, or even a Gingham shirt and you'll find some great options. Darker brown and gray are also good choices, but have a little less utility.

- The shoulders should fit ON YOUR SHOULDERS and should not protrude beyond them. The sleeve length should be tailored so that 1/4 inch to 1/2 of cuff shows when your arm is at rest, regardless of if you're wearing French cuff or not.

- In terms of size around the midsection, you should be able to fit no more than your fist between your torso and the back of the buttons. Anything more than that, regardless of your weight, is too much.

- Buttons on suits: A two-button is a go-to choice now. Three buttons often look too boxy, they come off as pretentious. There is a time and place for them, but just like light khaki suits you need to be a particular build and look for them. They go 'sometimes-always-never' meaning the top button is optional, the middle is not, the bottom should never be buttoned. On a two button, it goes sometimes, never.

- Pleats in male dress pants are typically a bad choice, opt for a pair of flat-fronts and it will quickly enhance your dress.

- In terms of length, they should not bunch all at your feet, they should 'break' once and then terminate.

- BURN YOUR BLACK DRESS SHIRTS AND DO NOT PAIR WITH A WHITE TIE. This is not, nor will it be again, your prom in 1998. Darker shirts are fine when paired with an appropriate tie, but a black dress shirt is tacky. As are white suits. You aren't God or Satan, no need to dress like it.

- Your shoes should follow your sock color, not your suit. If you have a navy suit and are wearing black socks, black shoes it is. If you are wearing brown socks, brown shoes it is. Your coordination for belt, shoes and socks should all be the same color. Socks can be in a slightly different color but same palette.

- Learn how to tie and dimple a necktie properly. Learn the four main ways to tie one if you want to add a bit more arrangement to yourself. Your tie should be no more than 2.5 inches wide, about 2 inches is optimal.

- Silver based items (watches, cuff links, tie bars) are universal. It takes a particular person to pull of gold.

- Cuff links, tie bars, and pocket squares can all be great, stand-out accents. However, you should pick between one of the three and none should be obtrusive.

Look at Cary Grant, Steve McQueen, and Jimmy Stewart for some stalwart standouts of past style. George Clooney, among others, is a person now who exudes this sort of traditional style in a new way.

I'll add more later.

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Buddy J

Dept. of Propaganda

7,439 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 3:38pm

Nomad sums it up nicely. I disagree regarding pleats, as they can be slimming, provide added comfort and range of motion, and allow for better fabric drape when use correctly. Don't nix them, but do be careful with them as they can be beneficial to portly fellows.

The '96 GQ article TT links to is well written and insightful into how the older generation put more value on the finer details that go into looking good. It's a good read and you might pull some good tips from it, but to follow the advice as rules would leave everyone looking like Ricardo Montalb�n.

What really matters is the clothes fit. A good jacket will look like ass if it's not properly tailored. An inexpensive jacket can look awesome if it is correctly fitted. In an upcoming Life post, I'll try and cover the major points.

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Doktor Schnabel von Rom

5,964 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 6:07pm

Sometimes style can be different based on one's industry as well. Working in acedemia, a lot of those same style rules apply (however, if I were to wear a suit jacket of any-kind to the classroom, I'd proly just make my students feel intimidated. I even notice a difference between days that I do and do not wear a tie... There is a tangible, almost glaring, difference in how the students approach me).

If I worked manual labor, wearing a tie would get me laughed at by my peers...

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Buddy J

Dept. of Propaganda

7,439 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 6:28pm

Yes, obviously there is a time and place for everything. Style transcends occupation, so no matter what you're doing, it's always a good idea to dress as you'd like to be seen.

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Kwitko

Sheriff of Dicktown

6,521 Posts

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26 Feb 2008, 6:30pm

I have two suits in my closet, gray and navy blue. I don't wear belts but I do have two pairs of suspenders to match either suit. My shirts are all point collared, no button-down, and half have French cuffs. I have brown and black socks and brown and black shoes. My shoes are either cap-toe or wing-tip Oxfords. Any tie older than two years gets trashed. That's how I roll, yo.

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Buddy J

Dept. of Propaganda

7,439 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 8:00pm

Kwitko knows the business. Never wear braces and a belt together.

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Kwitko

Sheriff of Dicktown

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26 Feb 2008, 8:18pm

Oh lord, people who do that drive me nuts. I laugh when it's the old guy from the farm who also chews terbaccer, but I've actually seen it in business settings. If I were a hiring manager, I'd exclude the guy on that alone.

I hate belts. The next suit I buy will have the belt loops removed.

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NiGHTS

Givin'em the business...

1,635 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 9:20pm

I'm more interested in finding out HOW you guys get your clothing, actually. I'd love to wear half of what I see on TV, in the news, online, etc. My problem, however, is my size. I'm not the average wide-load American that most suit manufactures seem to be tailoring to.

Even buying t-shirts can be difficult at times. I'm the perfect fit with an American Apparel t-shirt style (more narrow, fitting). However, finding that in any other retailer is a PITA. GAP fits just about right in the Small/XS for shirts/jackets, and my waist is about a 29/30. Cheaper alternatives, like Old Navy since I've already mentioned GAP, are no where near fitting me properly. My suit size, IIRC, is perfect at a 26S (or is it 29S? which one's the smallest most retailers carry?)

Help a skinny out?

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Clutch

I'm the man in the box

4,805 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 9:39pm

The only thing I really wear are khaki pants and polo shirts. Most of my polo shirts have stripes, horizontal stripes. Every once and awhile I will wear a t-shirt. I never wear really baggy clothes because they look like **** in my opinion.

Nights how tall are you and what is your weight. I'm 5'9" 140lbs I wear a 30/32 waist and medium shirt, and they fit good.

I am really, really picky about my clothes, I haven't actually bought any new shirts in like 3 years because I always find some flaw in new shirts that turn me off of them. I'm going shopping tonight, if I pick anything up I'll post some pictures.

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GnomeWizardd

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7,301 Posts

26 Feb 2008, 10:35pm

a fedora is always a nice touch!

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Nomad

3,503 Posts

27 Feb 2008, 2:01am

Quoting NiGHTS

I'm more interested in finding out HOW you guys get your clothing, actually. I'd love to wear half of what I see on TV, in the news, online, etc. My problem, however, is my size. I'm not the average wide-load American that most suit manufactures seem to be tailoring to.

Even buying t-shirts can be difficult at times. I'm the perfect fit with an American Apparel t-shirt style (more narrow, fitting). However, finding that in any other retailer is a PITA. GAP fits just about right in the Small/XS for shirts/jackets, and my waist is about a 29/30. Cheaper alternatives, like Old Navy since I've already mentioned GAP, are no where near fitting me properly. My suit size, IIRC, is perfect at a 26S (or is it 29S? which one's the smallest most retailers carry?)

Help a skinny out?

Depends.

I'm not a big fan of American Apparel because the life of the shirt is short, over an eight month period they will shrink an entire size essentially. They also have a problem that no two garments are alike and shrink quite a bit after first wear. It's nice when you find one that works though.

Urban Outfitter's BDG t-shirts are also good, more consistent and considerably softer for about $2 cheaper, however they are still $12-14 which is expensive for a plain shirt in my opinion.

The best option I've found for shirts is H&M, high quality, good fits in the size ranges I've been in (extra small to medium over the last couple of years) and are $5. They come in a variety of colors and styles. Hard to beat.

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the_technocrat

Veteran Icrontian

1,580 Posts

27 Feb 2008, 1:15pm

For cheap and good stuff, I've had a lot of luck at H&M and sales posted to Slickdeals. (Like this)

It's funny how people talk about dress changing the way people act. I had to do a bunch of errands on my lunch break yesterday (bank, walgreens, store, lunch) and was dressed up. Nothing but 'Pardon me' and 'sir' and 'thank you', and this is in a very crappy neighborhood. Contrast this with this weekend when I rolled into Whole Foods in a (very nice/polite neighborhood) and found myself being run over and literally pushed out of the way. I was unshaved for about 3 days and just had a hoodie/jeans on. I've been to that store dressed well before and got nothing but the utmost respect.

So yes, it definitely does make a difference, it seems like people don't happen to think of being considerate when there's nothing in particular to notice about you.

edit: another dressed vs. not dressed example: waiters. After I sign the check, there is a difference with waiters if you're dressed or not. Dressed = "Thank you, sir" Not dressed = "Thanks guys". Almost every time.

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Shorty

Sniping teh enterpwise!

9,543 Posts

27 Feb 2008, 6:31pm

.. and what if you don't particularly like what passes for said fashion or does not fit your social circle, personal likes and dislikes? This whole thread is very much targetted for one particular demographic. All this reads as if any other clothing is just plain wrong. I wear a suit and tie to work everyday. I have to, I work directly with a CIO, FD and CTO. If I am not immaculate, I am in trouble. But does that mean I have to follow "recommendations" post my work?

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Thrax

Cad

23,406 Posts

27 Feb 2008, 6:36pm

No, but many of the rules still apply. Belts matching shoes, fitted attire, getting the proper length of jeans (For example), wearing the right seasonal colors, etcetera.

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Shorty

Sniping teh enterpwise!

9,543 Posts

27 Feb 2008, 6:40pm

All those I do

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Kwitko

Sheriff of Dicktown

6,521 Posts

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27 Feb 2008, 7:32pm

Which gauge nose ring to wear...

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Thrax

Cad

23,406 Posts

27 Feb 2008, 7:33pm

How angry you want to make the metal detector, etc.

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Annes

Leching since ought-five

1,129 Posts

27 Feb 2008, 8:40pm

WTB more pics of the fedora hottie. Wait...is that GW?

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Nightwolf

Veteran Icrontian

2,316 Posts

27 Feb 2008, 8:52pm

Turtlenecks....EWWW

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NiGHTS

Givin'em the business...

1,635 Posts

27 Feb 2008, 11:49pm

Quoting the_technocrat

...Whole Foods in a (very nice/polite neighborhood) and found myself being run over and literally pushed out of the way. I was unshaved for about 3 days and just had a hoodie/jeans on....

That's what you get for shopping in a communist-loving hotbed of hippie goods.

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the_technocrat

Veteran Icrontian

1,580 Posts

28 Feb 2008, 3:59pm

Quoting NiGHTS

That's what you get for shopping in a communist-loving hotbed of hippie goods.

heh, every other time has been spectacular though. When I stop in after work, other people are courteous and let me by, and I feel like I'm more polite with them. Also, the workers there practically try to shop for me when I stop in after work. On a Saturday or something when I've rolled out of bed, they've been more likely to just tell me the aisle number.

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Shorty

Sniping teh enterpwise!

9,543 Posts

28 Feb 2008, 9:19pm

Quoting Kwitko

Which gauge nose ring to wear...

Ha ha

very good mate. You tit!

Quoting Thrax

How angry you want to make the metal detector, etc.

Also a good response, well done, that was quite funny for you Rob

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tmh88

Custom User Title

2,487 Posts

1 Mar 2008, 8:32pm

I usually have a tough time finding t-shirts that fit me well because I'm tall and thin: 6'2" 155lbs 32" waist. In high school I wore a lot of hollister because their stuff fits fairly tight and its somewhat long, so it was perfect for me. Now I'm on the prowl for some new brands that fit nicely.

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GnomeWizardd

<3 IC

7,301 Posts

1 Mar 2008, 9:57pm

Quoting StainMeNow

WTB more pics of the fedora hottie. Wait...is that GW?

Yep, Just under 2 years ago in orlando

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mmonnin

Veteran Icrontian

10,545 Posts

2 Mar 2008, 4:34am

Quoting the_technocrat

GQ, December 1996

Summary

1. The turtleneck is the most flattering thing a man can wear.

2. There is nothing like a fresh [sun]burn. (err, okay. I agree with this one, but all things in moderation. Cancer will come soon enough)

3. Always wear white to the face.

4. Make sure to show plenty of cuff. (french cuff in the article)

5. The better you look, the more money you make.

(and some extra)

So always wear white to the face....that means all your turtlenecks must be white...what the hell. Sounds contradicting to me.

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bothered

pondering and wandering along

4,548 Posts

2 Mar 2008, 9:19am

Quoting Shorty

.. and what if you don't particularly like what passes for said fashion or does not fit your social circle, personal likes and dislikes?

I've never understood 'fashion'. it seems like a small group of people decide 'this' will be the next big thing and everybody is supposed to wear it or look foolish. I have worn jeans and plain (no logos) Tee shirts since I was 18. I don't care where I'm going or who thinks what (apart from job interviews which are 50% BS anyway)
I saw a guy stood at the bar of my (then) local pub. He was covered in tattoos, short jeans and skinhead boots, sleeveless denim jacket, piercings etc. Turned out he was a great bloke, a vicar who worked with troubled teenagers. I try to never judge anybody by what they wear. If anybody judges me because of my clothes I couldn't care less, if they judge me before they know me then their opinion is worthless.
Fashion is BS, it's just marketing.

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MAGIC

NFNF

2,079 Posts

2 Mar 2008, 9:34am

Quoting bothered

I've never understood 'fashion'. it seems like a small group of people decide 'this' will be the next big thing and everybody is supposed to wear it or look foolish. I have worn jeans and plain (no logos) Tee shirts since I was 18. I don't care where I'm going or who thinks what (apart from job interviews which are 50% BS anyway)
I saw a guy stood at the bar of my (then) local pub. He was covered in tattoos, short jeans and skinhead boots, sleeveless denim jacket, piercings etc. Turned out he was a great bloke, a vicar who worked with troubled teenagers. I try to never judge anybody by what they wear. If anybody judges me because of my clothes I couldn't care less, if they judge me before they know me then their opinion is worthless.
Fashion is BS, it's just marketing.

Self marketing is everything.

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bothered

pondering and wandering along

4,548 Posts

2 Mar 2008, 11:45am

Quoting ][v][AGIC

Self marketing is everything.

Only if you think it is. I always think of marketing as somebody trying to make me believe something other than the truth. If you were buying a car who would you trust more, a salesman or somebody who had owned one?

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Nomad

3,503 Posts

2 Mar 2008, 4:32pm

Quoting bothered

I saw a guy stood at the bar of my (then) local pub. He was covered in tattoos, short jeans and skinhead boots, sleeveless denim jacket, piercings etc. Turned out he was a great bloke, a vicar who worked with troubled teenagers.

You're just proving that people do have preconceived notions, regardless of how hard you try, about what a person is through their appearance. To me though, fashion is more a hobby than anything, it's just like people who restore cars or collect stamps.

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bothered

pondering and wandering along

4,548 Posts

2 Mar 2008, 6:58pm

Quoting Nomad

You're just proving that people do have preconceived notions, regardless of how hard you try, about what a person is through their appearance.

I know they do. My point is you can be completely wrong so the judgment is pointless.

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Dress as you want to be seen

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