This time it's different...

To talk on Icrontic, just register!

It only takes 30 seconds.

Have an account? Sign in:

Reply to Discussion

Options

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

29 Jan 2009, 4:00pm

This time it's different...

The wife and I both worked out a bit to lose some pounds before the wedding, but afterwards with selling a house, changing jobs, moving, buying a house, etc.... ..we kinda let ourselves go.

The wife went to our new Dr.'s office for a back injury (mid-Dec). He told her she needed to lose 40+ pounds before we try to have kiddos. He told her to do the Atkins diet to drop the extra weight, then switch to South Beach to maintain.

I've heard equal horror / success stories from Atkins followers. One girl I went to college with (she was a knockout!) had lost 65 lbs, and her fiance lost 80 lbs in a year. Another person told me their cholesterol went through the roof, ....all they could eat was a pound of bacon, followed by 2 pounds of ground beef....

We're both very intelligent people, we both like to cook, and don't have problem sticking to something when we set our minds to it. So we read through the Atkins website, found out what we could/couldn't eat in Phase I.

We went shopping for authorized items on Sunday, Jan 4th, so we could start in fast and lean on Monday, Jan 5th. That Sunday we both indulged in some soon-to-be-forbidden carbs...

So here it is Jan 29th. Other than one or two days (One day in Vegas, one night on her Mom's B-Day) we've been 100% on track.

In 25 days I've lost 19 lbs, and she's lost 14 lbs.

We really eat pretty well too. No pounds and pounds of sausage, bacon, etc.

Breakfast is usually a couple or 3 eggs, with 3 strip of turkey bacon (the good stuff is very good) or 3 turkey sausage links. Usually have fresh veggies and some cheese for a mid-morning snack. Lunch we have chicken breast, or a super lean boneless pork chop, or maybe a super tuna stuffed tomato recipe I found on the Atkins site with a side salad and carb free dressing (quite a few good ones out there). Dinner is usually steak, chicken, fish, or lean pork,, with lots of fresh veggies, or another salad.

I can honestly say the only thing we're getting a little tired of eating is the eggs. There are only so many ways you can make eggs before they get boring and old. Other than that I'm not having too hard a time with this.

On top of the diet, I'm back at the gym lifting weights/doing cardo as hard as I did 10 years ago. Damn I love waking up the next day a little sore, guess it's the masochist in me.. The wife is training for a mini-triathalon in Henderson, LV, near Vegas in May, and a half marathon in Sep or Nov. I'm not a runner, but I thinking I might do a 5 or 10 K myself...

My ultimate goal is somewhere between 60 and 70 lbs (I was 258 at my starting point), putting me somewhere between 188 and 198.

So I think we can do this this time. Not sure what's different, just glad its working...

I'll keep adding our progress each week....

__________________

Reply with Quote

LawnMM

Oppressor of Crackheads

994 Posts

1 Feb 2009, 8:18am

Make sure you track your overall caloric intake. I'm not trying to knock Atkins (I can if you wish =) but if you cut most carbohydrate sources out you're slicing out a huge source of calories in your diet. In the short run you'll lose weight fast. Over time your body is going to feel like its starving when you're only taking in 1500 calories a day and its going to stomp the brakes on your metabolism. You'll have to eat MORE protein to compensate for the calorie drop. If you're under 2000 calories a day I'd consider adding more veggies and protein to get your count back up.

Sounds like you're doing well just remember no nutrition plan works from start to finish, you have to be ready and willing to tweak it (even if that means eating more) if your progress falters along the way, and it probably will through no fault of yours.

__________________ Uncommon sense...if you think about it, common sense isn't very common!

Reply with Quote

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

2 Feb 2009, 7:00pm

I understand where your coming from.

I'm fluctuating our caloric intake between 1500 - 2000 cals per day. I'm trying for a daily calorie deficit of 300 to 500 cals...

By lunchtime today I'll be over 1200 cals, after dinner I should be around 1700.

I usually do a whey protein shake around 7:30 - 8:00 for another 200 cals..

Reply with Quote

Thrax

Cad

23,408 Posts

2 Feb 2009, 7:03pm

What is your BMR?

__________________ Robert Hallock
Technical Analyst
Twitter | LinkedIn

CPU: Core 2 Duo E6420 @ 3.5GHz (500*7)
MoBo: DFI LanParty DK P35-T2R/S
RAM: 4GB G.SKILL PC8500
VID: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 275
HSF: Thermalright Ultra-120

Reply with Quote

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

2 Feb 2009, 7:27pm

Quoting Thrax

What is your BMR?

About 2190 right now..

I was just under 2300 when we started this.

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

2 Feb 2009, 8:18pm

Atkins is overblown, but in general, eliminating excess carbohydrates is a good thing and the surest way for most Americans to start to correct their diet. Of course the typical American diet is full of refined sugars and such, which may or may not apply to you.

At the same time, carbohydrates are critically important to fueling your muscles and brain; both of which require glycogen to function properly.

I'm going to keep this short, but basically you want to stay away from excessive fructose. Naturally occurring fructose found in fresh fruit is not so much the concern as is the high levels of fructose found in certain prepared foods, sodas, candy, sweetened juice drinks and even some natural juice drinks. Unlike glucose, fructose is metabolized in the liver before it is used as fuel by your muscles and brain. It goes into a sort of "sugar purgatory" before being sent to the heaven of the blood stream or the hell of the fat stores, and the liver of most adults can only store around 100 grams of the stuff before kicking it directly to fat stores.

Excess carbohydrates are stored as fat. In fact, this is the primary source of stored body fat. The proteins and fats found in food are rarely ever converted to body fat when consumed because they are so rich in nutrients. Body fat is simply stored energy... And most of our 'energy' comes from carbohydrates.

The fact that fructose must be metabolized before it is useful causes it to be the most likely candidate for fat storage. That, and as Americans we typically consume way too much of it.

So where is fructose found?

- Many plants, particularly fruits, produce it naturally.
- Most common refined sugar sweeteners, including ordinary granular sugar from sugar cane which is made up of sucrose.
- High fructose corn syrup, etc.
- NOTE: Sucrose is 1 fructose molecule bonded to 1 glucose molecule, so it is every bit as troublesome to the disciplined dieter.

Where is glucose found?

- Starchy carbs, like pasta, potatoes, etc.
- Whole foods stores, sold in powdered form as DEXTROSE. It is typically refined from corn.

In fact, fructose is so pervasive in processed foods that it is almost impossible to eat anything sweet without consuming it.

The surest way to limit your carbohydrate intake to glucose is to specifically purchase glucose/dextrose sugar in bulk and use it to sweeten the foods you make yourself. It is also an excellent additive to protein shakes that are consumed with exercise. The added benefit is that the glucose causes an insulin spike in the blood, and both blood glucose and insulin are very useful to the body while exercising.

Alright, so this was supposed to stay short:

TL; DR: Fructose bad. Glucose good. Consume glucose with exercise if possible, and not too much at any other times. All sugars in moderation.

If you start feeling sluggish, or get what dieters refer to as brain fog, then up your glucose intake.

__________________ ~~Revisionist~~ Far-sighted historian.

Reply with Quote

Thrax

Cad

23,408 Posts

2 Feb 2009, 8:30pm

Khaos' advice really, really depends on your goals. For fat loss, an abundance of bodily glycogen at any time is not good. The body does not need glycogen to function, but this should not be prolonged for a great length of time.

In the absence of sugar in the blood stream, the body significantly reduces its production of insulin. Insulin is a hormone that forces the body to burn glycogen for energy, not body fat. Someone looking to lose body fat is not going to lose it if their insulin is up because they've got sugar in their blood stream.

The trick is to force a state called ketosis, in which insulin production is so low that the body converts excess fat into ketones. The ketones are then metabolized for the body's energy. All of the body's organs and systems, including the brain, can run on ketones for energy.

People can only stay on this diet for 2-3 months at a time, at which they must cycle in carbohydrates.

My advice is to maintain your low carb diet (<60g per day), and undertake carb cycling. Carb cycling will keep the body out of starvation mode, and preserve fat loss without the risk of triggering new insulin production.

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

2 Feb 2009, 9:51pm

It's reckless to recommend that someone with no serious diet and training experience attempt ketosis. The state of ketosis is extremely detrimental to training and as a result, many newbies who try such diets end up discarding both the exercise and the diet. Add to that the fact that they are liable to end up SkinnyFat if they stick with such a diet and I just don't think it makes sense for people who are not bulked up and looking to shed body fat that is on top of a base of lean muscle mass.

Exercise, in the long run, is more important than diet. First let's establish that. You can eat a whole lot of food (As long as it isn't total junk), and if you're highly active, your body will do useful things with it. Especially if one trains with ramped resistance. Up to a point, of course.

For most people, simply cutting out the refined sugar and junk foods and going to the gym 3-4 times a week is PLENTY to start with and will result in fat loss without causing them undue pain from the diet aspect.

Reply with Quote

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

2 Feb 2009, 10:09pm

Thrax, Khaos,

I'm no amatuer - I could probably be a damn good personal trainer if I get my head right when it comes to myself.

Thrax - Got my ketosis strips in the medicine cabinet... I know where I need to keep my levels.

I'm averaging between 15 and 30 grams of the proper carbs per day.

I've been told I'm bordrline insulin intollerant - But I also have a addiction to certain carbs - potato chips, crackers, etc. I'm still learing about this, but I've read that 40% certain carbs I take in are converted to fat...

I truely feel better since I've been doing this, the few times I've cheated and eaten chips, white bread, pizza, I've felt like crap the next day, and my cravings for those products has gone through the roof.

I'm one of the "those guys" that know EXACLY how I need to eat and excercise, but fails to follow through. My wife is kicking my ass keeping me on track. I bitch and moan when she does, but I'm so grateful that she is...

Reply with Quote

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

2 Feb 2009, 10:21pm

Quoting Khaos

......Exercise, in the long run, is more important than diet.

I don't agree...

I think at a minimum it's a 60/40 (70/30 for me)split between diet/excercise.

If you think of your body as a race car, and food as the gas, you need to put premium fuel(food) in your car to achieve maximum horsepower.

In the past I've busted my ass in the gym, and continued to eat crap/drink beer/soda, and saw little or no progress. But when I got my diet in line too my numbers took off.

Reply with Quote

RyderOCZ

OCZ Guru / IC Groupie

2,566 Posts

» Subscriber

2 Feb 2009, 10:42pm

Size is built in the Gym. Physique is built in the Kitchen.

Reply with Quote

Thrax

Cad

23,408 Posts

2 Feb 2009, 11:31pm

Strength: Gym
Physique: Kitchen

^ this * 1000

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

2 Feb 2009, 11:54pm

I don't disagree...

But you can't build size and physique and the same time, and a truly ketonic diet has nothing but negative effects on the former and cannot possibly yield the latter when there is no muscle mass to begin with.

RADA - Alright, so you clearly have a good base of knowledge about what you're doing. That's a great thing! I still wouldn't recommend that you go ketonic as your starting point, but we've all put our two cents in already and nobody here is particularly wrong. If I was training you, I would recommend a reduced carb diet with a caloric deficit to start with until you drop the desired fat, then an increased intake to build mass followed by cuts to your liking. But I'm not training you; I'm just some asshole on the forums giving advice.

Reply with Quote

RyderOCZ

OCZ Guru / IC Groupie

2,566 Posts

» Subscriber

2 Feb 2009, 11:56pm

My current progress and physique beg to differ Khaos

I eat 2200 - 2500 Calories a day and almost 400g of protein, less than 25g of carbs.

Bye bye to fat

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 12:02am

Quoting RADA

I don't agree...

I think at a minimum it's a 60/40 (70/30 for me)split between diet/excercise.

If you think of your body as a race car, and food as the gas, you need to put premium fuel(food) in your car to achieve maximum horsepower.

In the past I've busted my ass in the gym, and continued to eat crap/drink beer/soda, and saw little or no progress. But when I got my diet in line too my numbers took off.

You quoted me out of context. Crap in, crap out. That is certainly true.

Quoting Khaos

You can eat a whole lot of food (As long as it isn't total junk), and if you're highly active, your body will do useful things with it.

I was obviously speaking to the context of the post, which was regarding good carbs and ketosis. You cannot subsist on beer, soda, chips and pizza and expect to get good results from your training, but that goes without saying.

It also goes without saying that if you eat more calories than your body requires for basal metabolism, you will gain weight. If you eat FAR MORE calories than your body can use for rebuilding tissue and muscular hypertrophy, then you will gain fat. But if you are busting your ass with the iron, it is pretty difficult to gain fat. As in, 4000 calories of NotJunk(R) difficult for the average male and the bigger you get, the bigger that number gets.

Quoting RyderOCZ

My current progress and physique beg to differ Khaos

Don't beg me... Beg a medical textbook that covers metabolic enzymes, energy conversion in the body, anabolism and catabolism.

What you're seeing right now is your existing muscle tissue growing in volume because you are asking it to do more work than it's accustomed to. As a result, the glycogen stores in your muscles are growing. (Along with a lot of water, since each molecule of glycogen bonds to three molecules of H2O.) That will stop after the first few months of training and you will hit a plateau.

Reply with Quote

LawnMM

Oppressor of Crackheads

994 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 12:43am

Quoting Khaos

It also goes without saying that if you eat more calories than your body requires for basal metabolism, you will gain weight.

Uh...thats true if you're laying a coma at a hospital. For those of us that do more than sleep all day there's another few hundred to a few thousand calories burned per day. My advice would be not to consume less than your basal rate to avoid stalling one's metabolism. Activity of your daily life and trips to the gym will push you into the caloric deficit required for weight loss.

Carbohydrates are not the enemy. If they come from the right sources it would stun most people just how MUCH food they can eat every day and still lose weight.

Reply with Quote

Thrax

Cad

23,408 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 3:48am

Psst, Khaos, it's hard to initiate glycolysis when you're on < 50g of carbs per day. Just sayin'.

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 2:41pm

My apologies to the pedants. I should have chosen terminology more carefully. If you replace 'basal metabolism' with 'the minimum calories required to support resting bodily function, waking bodily function and day-to-day activities, adjusted for activity level, job and general lifestyle' it makes perfect sense, and Lawn you of all people know that that was my intent. Of all the things to pick on...

Thrax... < 50g of carbs per day is all kinds of silly for somebody who weighs 250 lbs. and is exercising in the gym. They're going to be severely catabolic to the point of consuming more muscle mass for energy than is worth the extra fat burn, especially if those carbs are not consumed during their workout. Just sayin'.

Quoting LawnMM

Carbohydrates are not the enemy. If they come from the right sources it would stun most people just how MUCH food they can eat every day and still lose weight.

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure this has been my point since I made the mistake of posting in this thread and contradicting Thrax's ideas about dieting.

The bottom line is that people make the mistake of over-complicating their diet by tracking every peanut they eat on FitDay, making it their goal to eat NEGATIVE quantities of carbs and so on and so forth.

Dieting is actually quite simple. Eat good food and less of it, and you will lose weight IF you are working hard in the gym. The hard work is crucial. Otherwise you are going to eat up your muscle by dieting instead of your fat.

You gotta convince your body that it NEEDS the muscle it has. REALLY needs it. No half-assed workouts followed by starvation dieting is going to yield the same results as BUST-ASS workouts with a MODERATE caloric deficit.

Reply with Quote

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 3:38pm

Quoting LawnMM

.... Carbohydrates are not the enemy. If they come from the right sources it would stun most people just how MUCH food they can eat every day and still lose weight.

SOME carbs are the enemy:

Empty carbs like from french fries, potato chips, white bread IE: refined white flour, white pastas, candy, cookies, prepackaged cakes or pies.....

None of these have the nutritional value to be part of a regular diet. These carbs spike insulin /energy levels followed by a rapid crash, making you want more bad carbs to bring your energy level back up.

In minor doses, these would be alright, but should never be part of anyone's regular diet.. (Incedently, the chips, white bread, cookies - all my kryptonite)

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 3:53pm

French fries and potato chips are actually good for you as long as they aren't cooked in hydrogenated oil. Potatoes are a great source of starchy carbs that are chock full of glucose when broken down. Fry them in non-hydrogenated vegetable oil.

Olive oil is not a good fry oil as it has low heat tolerance and when it becomes very hot its molecules align in a similar fashion to hydrogenated oils. These symmetrically aligned fat molecules are impossible for the body to break down into usable amino acids as the metabolic enzymes cannot interface with them.

Reply with Quote

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 5:40pm

Yesterday's totals:

Approx. 1900 cals

Protein: 218.9 grams 48%

Carbs: 26.0 grams 5%

Fat: 95.0 grams (21 saturated) 46%

Fat total was a little high yesterday - we had Keilbasa for dinner. Higher fat content than our usual dinner. Plan on fish or chicken tonight to reduce our two day fat total....

Reply with Quote

Nomad

3,503 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 6:03pm

Quoting Khaos

Exercise, in the long run, is more important than diet. First let's establish that. You can eat a whole lot of food (As long as it isn't total junk), and if you're highly active, your body will do useful things with it. Especially if one trains with ramped resistance. Up to a point, of course.

I would argue training is roughly 80% diet, 19% gym, and 1% genetics.

You can skip the gym for weeks at a time and maintain both physique and strength with proper dietary care. I don't suggest it though.

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 6:45pm

Quoting Nomad

You can skip the gym for weeks at a time and maintain both physique and strength with proper dietary care.

I don't see what that has to do with the importance of exercise vs. diet.

Quoting Nomad

I don't suggest it though.

In fact, it's a good idea to take a couple weeks off from the gym every so often to give the body a chance to recover. Personally, I make a habit of taking one or two weeks off every 8-12 weeks. My best gains almost always come the week following a break.

Quoting Nomad

it would stun most people just how MUCH food they can eat every day and still lose weight

Quoting Nomad

I would argue training is roughly 80% diet, 19% gym, and 1% genetics.

In my view, these are contradictory statements. Maybe we are really talking about different things. Also, percentages of importance are stupid with respect to gym vs. diet. They're both important, and the implication that you can trade one for another by showing them as a proportion is just wrong. You cannot trade diet for gym or vice versa. Two weeks breaks are irrelevant to that discussion. We're talking about the actual training here.

Reply with Quote

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 7:49pm

Tell you one thing.....

The amount of quality time I have in the *ahem* "library" has plumeted.......

I can barely get through one article in Maxim now!....

Reply with Quote

Nomad

3,503 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 8:49pm

Quoting Khaos

I don't see what that has to do with the importance of exercise vs. diet.

It has everything to do with it, bodily maintenance and strength can happen with brief intervals of training, but only if your diet is correct. Diet controls how big you are, what your body fat is, how well you recover from workouts. Weight lifting is simply a means of creating caloric deficit and taxing the muscles with small tears.

True, they are both components. If you don't lift, your muscles don't get the small tears in them, becoming bigger and stronger when healed. Yet, if you do not feed yourself properly, you won't grow outside of your beginner gains.

In fact, it's a good idea to take a couple weeks off from the gym every so often to give the body a chance to recover. Personally, I make a habit of taking one or two weeks off every 8-12 weeks. My best gains almost always come the week following a break.

I'm not talking about taking your simple break, where you keep your diet relatively consistent but give your body rest. I'm speaking of weeks, months at a time where weight training is forgone for whatever reason (sickness, travel). At the end of that you can maintain relatively the same strength, upwards of 85%, so long as you maintain some dietary consistency.

In my view, these are contradictory statements. Maybe we are really talking about different things. Also, percentages of importance are stupid with respect to gym vs. diet. They're both important, and the implication that you can trade one for another by showing them as a proportion is just wrong. You cannot trade diet for gym or vice versa. Two weeks breaks are irrelevant to that discussion. We're talking about the actual training here.

I don't see the contradiction, those two statements are about completely different things. I didn't say anything about trading one for another, I said there is a varying level of importance and the discussion of long term breaks are directly relevant for showing that.

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 9:46pm

I'm speaking of weeks, months at a time where weight training is forgone for whatever reason (sickness, travel). At the end of that you can maintain relatively the same strength, upwards of 85%, so long as you maintain some dietary consistency.

But this has no relevance to beginners. This whole thread is regarding someone who is just starting a program and does not have advanced knowledge of training and nutrition; no offense intended, RADA.

From the perspective of a beginner, I maintain that exercise is more important than diet. Too many people put diet first and then go to the gym with so little knowledge of how to exercise that they do things that are actually detrimental to their goals.

I think we both agree that dieting can be made simple. It does not have to be so incredibly complicated. When dieting becomes complicated, especially for beginners, it takes the focus off of exercise... When exercise is really the hardest thing to get right.

The body tells us when it's hungry. It doesn't tell us when we need to do less repetitions because we're cannibalizing muscle tissue... It complains about all exercise to some extent, and beginners have no idea how to interpret the complaining. It isn't their fault. It's the fault of trainers who emphasize diet.

FOR A BEGINNER, diet is secondary to exercise. Sure, diet becomes crucial once somebody is highly trained. You can't grow if your diet is too thin, you can't maintain, etc. But for a beginner, they can't do anything without learning how to exercise except get skinny fat. Nobody wants to be a skeleton walking around in baggy skin.

Reply with Quote

Thrax

Cad

23,408 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 9:51pm

I think you missed the part where RADA has been an advanced trainer in the past. Since when do noobs have ketone strips in their medicine cabinet?

Reply with Quote

Nomad

3,503 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 10:03pm

Quoting Khaos

But this has no relevance to beginners. This whole thread is regarding someone who is just starting a program and does not have advanced knowledge of training and nutrition; no offense intended, RADA.

RADA is by no means a beginner, if I recall he used to lift West Side style and puts up some impressive numbers.

From the perspective of a beginner, I maintain that exercise is more important than diet. Too many people put diet first and then go to the gym with so little knowledge of how to exercise that they do things that are actually detrimental to their goals.

Then we disagree. I maintain people consume bullshit without knowledge of what it does to their body, which is more dangerous that doing swiss ball crunches.

Reply with Quote

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 10:33pm

Quoting Thrax

I think you missed the part where RADA has been an advanced trainer in the past. Since when do noobs have ketone strips in their medicine cabinet?

Yup, I WAS in pretty good shape, but that was a while ago.

Last week's chest workout was OK.

Incline presses

1st set: 55lb x 12 reps (dumbbells)
2nd set: 65lb x 10
3rd set: 75lb x 8
4th set 80lb x 6
5th set 60lb x 12
6th set 30lb flatbench flyes x 12 (usually fail to get 12 - too burnt out, but it feels great)

I'm still using the Body for Life routine, untill I find something better/ more intense. I rotate between weights and cardio on a six day schedule.

The first week I'm doing upper body 2x a week, 2nd week I'm doing lower body 2x a week, then back to upper 2x, with cardio every other day. Sunday is my off day.

Reply with Quote

Thrax

Cad

23,408 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 10:58pm

I would like to plug Rippetoes. It's an amazing program for people jumping back on the wagon.

Reply with Quote

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 11:12pm

Quoting Thrax

I would like to plug Rippetoes. It's an amazing program for people jumping back on the wagon.

Where can i find the best info on it?

Reply with Quote

Nomad

3,503 Posts

3 Feb 2009, 11:43pm

Quoting RADA

Where can i find the best info on it?

Ask and ye' shall receive. It's what I recommend to basically everyone. It's what I'm currently doing again now with some small modification.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

Reply with Quote

LawnMM

Oppressor of Crackheads

994 Posts

4 Feb 2009, 3:23pm

Quoting RADA

SOME carbs are the enemy

Hence "from the right sources"

My point is I think some of the tools people in bodybuilding use are often allocated to improper uses by others. Not saying thats what you're doing but I see it a lot, some here, some in other places. I wouldn't recommend carb cycling as a weight loss technique. Thats not a bad short term way to cut bodyfat but its more effective when say yer a pretty big kid and prepping for a competition 6-8 weeks out. Not at the start of a journey back to fitness levels of days past. Its too hard to maintain for any length of time and the progress is fairly quickly achieved and difficult to maintain.

My point was there's a growing trend in this country when one wants to shape up or drop unwanted pounds to just start cutting out carbohydrates like everybody was afraid of fat years ago. In reality you need them all in the proper balance to function well. I maintain many people would be amazed how much food they could eat, including fairly healthy doses of carbohydrates, and still drop bodyfat...if the calories come from the right places.

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

4 Feb 2009, 3:44pm

Quoting Nomad

Then we disagree. I maintain people consume bullshit without knowledge of what it does to their body, which is more dangerous that doing swiss ball crunches.

I was thinking more along the lines of newbies doing high rep sets and endurance cardio while ketonic, which is just awful and so many people think that more exercise equates to more fat loss. In point of fact, you actually want to do FAR LESS while on a caloric deficit -- especially a severely restricted ketonic diet. Not less intensity; just less quantity.

I think we can both agree that Swiss ball crunches are harmless. Going into the gym in a ketonic state and doing 36 reps of 3 different chest exercises, on the other hand, is not.

If RADA has trained West Side and understands the intensity/rep/set dynamics and the effects that his diet will have on his ability to recover and train, then maybe I was just misunderstanding the situation and some of my advice was overstated as a result.

RADA:

I apologize if I've offended you by downplaying your experience. It was purely out of caution -- I've seen a lot of people do themselves (And their goals) harm in the gym.

I'm surprised, though, that with such training experience you would opt to start off a new program with ketosis after coming off a long layoff. While that may drop the weight fast, it makes it much harder to start building strength again as the body typically takes 1-2 months or more to fully recover its normal metabolism. If you're willing to delay the fat loss by a few months, you could maintain better strength and muscle mass with a more conservative approach. But that's the last I will harp on that point.

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

4 Feb 2009, 3:53pm

Is Rippetoes a 5x5 oriented around the big three? Can't get to BB.com. My favorite routines are generally 5x5/WS hybrids with every other week or every third week being a WS week. I find it more sustainable than straight WS with my body type. I carry a lot of muscle but my upper body bone structure is relatively thin. Maxing bench every week taxes my joints like crazy to the point where my arms aren't usable and I end up sidelined with wrist and elbow ligament strains.

WS yields undeniable results, though. When I made the switch from straight 5x5 to WS both my x12 sets and max presses shot up around 45-55 pounds within a few weeks. Within two months I was pressing my previous max for 12 reps on light effort days. Gotta love it.

Reply with Quote

Nomad

3,503 Posts

5 Feb 2009, 1:48pm

Quoting Khaos

Is Rippetoes a 5x5 oriented around the big three? Can't get to BB.com. My favorite routines are generally 5x5/WS hybrids with every other week or every third week being a WS week. I find it more sustainable than straight WS with my body type. I carry a lot of muscle but my upper body bone structure is relatively thin. Maxing bench every week taxes my joints like crazy to the point where my arms aren't usable and I end up sidelined with wrist and elbow ligament strains.

WS yields undeniable results, though. When I made the switch from straight 5x5 to WS both my x12 sets and max presses shot up around 45-55 pounds within a few weeks. Within two months I was pressing my previous max for 12 reps on light effort days. Gotta love it.

Rippetoes is 5x3 of working weight, not block pyramids like Bill Starr.

Workout A:
Squat: 5x3
Bench: 5x3
DL: 5x3

Workout B:
Squat: 5x3
Mil Press: 5x3
Rows/Cleans: 5x3

Week 1:
A
B
A

Week 2:
B
A
B

Week 3:
A
B
A

etc.

And if you suddenly started doing 40-50 more pounds on your bench or whatever in just two weeks, you were not pushing yourself at all before hand. That's mental, not physical, or you were in beginning stages with some exercises.

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

5 Feb 2009, 2:37pm

5x3... Even better, although I prefer a 4 day split over a 3 day. Squats and deadlifts in one day is just brutality if you're pushing each movement.

Quoting Nomad

And if you suddenly started doing 40-50 more pounds on your bench or whatever in just two weeks, you were not pushing yourself at all before hand. That's mental, not physical, or you were in beginning stages with some exercises.

This is true.

I put a little more thought into it yesterday on my way home from work, and my jump was more like 30 pounds (215-245). I had been seriously lifting for only about 3 months back then (Although I lifted off and on since high school), so there was definitely a beginner-gains/newbie-gains aspect as well since I was in the midst of truly learning how to train.

The reason for it was quite simple: I had never trained properly for max intensity. Switching to WS for two weeks, I was doing x3, x2, x2, x1, x1 on bench instead of 5x5. It had a very dramatic effect on my max press, but it's not really a fair comparison when my previous max bench numbers were typically attained after doing x5, x5, x5, x4, x3, x1.

When I was lifting in high school they emphasized 12 rep sets because they thought it was safer for us. Basically, my high school athletic trainers were idiots and unfortunately their misinformation stuck with me until I got serious about training later in life.

WS simply opened the door to greater intensity. It wasn't for lack of effort prior to that. I was training wrong for my goals.

The interesting thing is that training WS-style for max intensity also makes it much easier to improve muscular endurance. Max effort helps build mass... Light effort helps develop endurance. They have a very synergistic effect regardless of whether the end goal is to press 12 reps for max weight or 1 rep.

All this talk of lifting really makes me want to stop being a lazy bum. I've been on a 1.5 year layoff now after my family life just went to complete shit and I got distracted by things. But not yet.

And as an aside, I've chosen pressing as the example, but the same things can be said for squats and deadlifts, which are more important exercises anyway. Since you guys love to pick apart what I say about training, I figured I'd toss that in there. I did not see such a dramatic improvement in either my squat or deadlift from WS training, though. I was already doing 3 rep sets at most and far more singles than I had been on the bench.

Reply with Quote

Nomad

3,503 Posts

5 Feb 2009, 3:37pm

I'm not attacking, merely debating. Having competed in weightlifting before, run races, and been through ketosis I felt I should add my two cents.

Reply with Quote

Khaos

King Kretin

694 Posts

5 Feb 2009, 4:08pm

Quoting Nomad

I'm not attacking, merely debating. Having competed in weightlifting before, run races, and been through ketosis I felt I should add my two cents.

Well, likewise. I've been trying to keep it constructive and bear in mind the philosophical statement that I wrote down my arm.

By no means do I know all there is to know about training, nutrition, 'enhancement' or any other topic of fitness discussion... But I've been down a lot of different paths at this point, including making the mistake of starting off a serious training program with ketosis after years of not lifting. It's hard to stay quiet about this stuff when I've developed such a passion for it and when my life more or less revolved around powerlifting for a few years until things fell apart for me. Everything I studied, ate, and thought was geared towards one singular, unattainable goal... The infinite quest to move more. One day I'll resume that. Until then, I'm pretty satisfied with being a softy. /grin

Edit:

Until then, I'm pretty satisfied with being a softy.

Alright, so this was a complete and utter lie. But one thing at a time.

Reply with Quote

RADA

New Icrontian

2,297 Posts

6 Feb 2009, 6:22pm

Khaos,

I understand where your coming from and have taken no offense to anything anyone has said.

I've tested myself every other day since starting and have never actually gone into a true state of ketosis. My strips show pink (Negative) to a dusty rose(Mild), never had a purple (Positive) reading.

Quoting Khaos

RADA:

I apologize if I've offended you by downplaying your experience. It was purely out of caution -- I've seen a lot of people do themselves (And their goals) harm in the gym.

I'm surprised, though, that with such training experience you would opt to start off a new program with ketosis after coming off a long layoff. While that may drop the weight fast, it makes it much harder to start building strength again as the body typically takes 1-2 months or more to fully recover its normal metabolism. If you're willing to delay the fat loss by a few months, you could maintain better strength and muscle mass with a more conservative approach. But that's the last I will harp on that point.

Reply with Quote

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Big Time Tournaments - Big Time Giveaway	Sledgehammer70	Technology Articles	15	24 Apr 2006 3:40am
Computer Boots Every Day Same Time	Joe-ny	Resolved / Inactive	10	21 Apr 2006 2:49pm
Virtumondo. C -- Help...	teacherlooking	Resolved / Inactive	13	19 Mar 2006 10:02pm
Time limit software/options for my kids	DoctorGeo2008	General Software	2	4 Oct 2005 12:01am
Forum time Q	Shivian	Site Feedback	6	6 Jun 2003 4:13am

		Icrontic Forums > Life > Fitness
This time it's different...

Jump to

This Thread	Search this Thread
Print Email	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Username
Password	Forgot?
Remember me