The Icrontic Gun Thread

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  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian

    After the second time my car got broken into, a Detroit cop told me the same thing: "No alarm system is as effective as the sound of a racking shotgun. NOBODY sticks around when they hear that sound"

  • JokkeJokke Bergen, Norway Icrontian

    I know next to nothing about skeet shooting, but I have some experience with shotguns as a tactical weapon. We use the Benelli supernova tactical (Benelli has several shotguns in the Nova series). https://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/nova-series.
    Fairly easy to use, and I imagine it would fit nicely for a home defence scenario, although I have next to no experience with this either.
    Ammo is a thing to consider, I see buckshot being mentioned, but I want to mention slugs. Spread is good, 'cause you have a better chance of injury or death, even with a bad shot, but you have the increased chance of damaging third parties as well. With a slug, there is one projectile hitting the target, with tremendous force. I've also heard of combination ammo, where there's one big slug and a few pellets, like a hybrid shell.
    Which brings me to my next point; practice. Sure, you could have your shotgun laying around for that rare occurence of a home invasion, but if you've never fired the thing, you sure as hell will fudge it up when your heart is racing, tunnel vision kicks in and you have no muscle memory. Make sure you fire it often. Practice loading without looking, make sure you know how the gun (and you) perform under different circumstances. Practice in light, practice in darkness, practice in sun, and practice in rain. Do pushups or jumping jacks to get your pulse racing, then do the shooting. A gun is only as good as it's shooter.
    Sure, you can get a shell with plenty of pellets, and a choke that will give you all the spread in the world, but I'd rather have one slug, that I know for certain I can place in the upper body of an individual at 50 meters, in the dark, with a pulse of 120. The only way to get to that point is practice, practice, practice. Maybe even a class, to get the fundamentals down.
    Also, if you're really serious about using it for home defence, a good, weapon-mounted light is paramount. Making a shot does not matter if you cannot ID your target. The last thing you want is to gun down your neighbour because a stray cat is rummaging trough your garbage.
    Another good thing with shotguns is the (I guess depending on state?) availability of less-lethal rounds. Bean bags, rubber bullets, those tiny CS-gas powder balls. Why kill when you can convice the invader to flee?

    primesuspect
  • pigflipperpigflipper The Forgotten Coast Icrontian

    The Remington 870 is probably your best bet for a quality pump action 12gauge that won't break the bank and will stand up to heavy use. We have had one for, god, I don't know how long, used it for everything from skeet, to deer, to duck, to riding in the bed of the pickup doing neighborhood anti-looting patrols after hurricanes. I keep an auto 410 at my place, unplugged (which is illegal now I think, I know its illegal for hunting) holding 7+1 shells of bird shot; fast as you can pull the trigger you can empty that firearm. Also have a 12 and 20 gauge auto, but they are PRETTY, walnut stocks inlaid with hunting scenes done in real silver. My dad keeps a 16 gauge as his truck weapon (for meth heads, thieves, scare off bears) but it has a below legal barrel length thanks to it being run over when I was a kid and then being hacksawed off about 1.5" below min. length. Puts out a 20'x20' spread at 30', basically just an auto shotty room/riot clearer.

    Cop is correct: you hear a 12-gauge pump rack a shell, you take notice immediately, nothing else has that sound and fear factor.

    @Jokke is right as well: PRACTICE! PRACTICE! PRACTICE! Get the fundamentals of that specific firearm down and then get your heart rate up to mimic a stressful situation. Rinse, repeat.

  • the_technocratthe_technocrat IC-MotY1 Indy Icrontian

    I sold all my guns a while back when the price spiked. they were all 9mm. I want to do a 12ga HS, but likely something like a multi-round bullpup so I don't have to swing it around.

  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian

    For a mythical home invasion scenario, I'm almost certain that the sound of the rack alone would cause anyone with a brain in their head to flee. I've talked to a few victims of home invasion back in Detroit's higher-crime days, and they all concurred on that point. CHK-CHUK, "oh shit!" running footsteps
    I was looking at a VEPR-12 for sheer ridiculousness factor (plus the Russian-ness appeals to my 80's kid Red Scare upbringing), or the KSG tac 12 for lulz.

  • MAGICMAGIC Doot Doot Furniture City, Michigan Icrontian
    edited July 1

    @primesuspect said:
    Hey IC. I'm in the market for a shotgun. I'm not entirely sure if I want a 12 or a 20 yet, and I'm not versed enough in shotgun lore to know the pros/cons of the gauges.. I want it to be pump-action. I want it to look "tactical", preferably all black; definitely no camo pattern bullshit, and I don't care for wood grain.
    I will mostly use it to shoot clay pigeons; a hobby I'm starting to consider getting into with Perry... but home defense is also part of the equation.
    I found a Black-owned gun shop near me that will special order stuff, so I think the field's pretty open as far as recommendations go.

    I second the 870. Barrels are super easy to change, and parts are very cheap. I keep mine around the house with the 18" barrel on it and have have the stock 26" barrel for clay/bird hunting.

    Or, this is most entertaining shotgun I've ever used.
    https://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/m4-tactical-shotguns?eid=144

    primesuspect
  • Mt_GoatMt_Goat Head Cheezy Knob Pflugerville (north of Austin) Icrontian
    edited July 11

    Again @Jokke is spot on about practice, practice, practice! But back to the subject of ammo. I have shot, practiced and done tests on all the types and sizes available. And found slugs to be way more than overkill for anything on 2 legs. For a camp gun on Kodiak Island they are perfect due to the extreme devastation they produce. Nevermind a 12ga slug, a 20ga slug can and will go through both sides of a 1970's American automobile including the occupant inside. So with that in mind, the thought of using a 12ga slug indoors is just too scary to consider. With the typical 12ga 18.5 to 20 inch barrel with no choke the spread of #1 Buckshot is about a 7" circle at 30 feet of distance. And 00 is about 4" at the same distance. So at typical close quarters encounters you are looking at about a fist sized hole. So with this in mind the notion of strays hitting innocents isn't much more than a 45 ACP pistol at the same range. Now back to that slug. Several years ago I WAS ON Kodiak Island hunting Blacktail Deer and shot a 9 foot tall Brown Bear that was over 1,000 lbs in self defense with a 12ga slug. Both of my shots ended up just under the skin on the far side after a complete penetration.

    Next very important points:
    *Never brandish any firearm without fully intending to use it.
    *Never shoot without the expectation of fatal results.
    *There are many cases of wounded intruders winning lawsuits against law abiding citizens who shot the scumbags in self defense in their own homes. It is essentially combat. Kill or be killed (or even worse, sued for everything you were trying to protect).
    Let's hope none of us has to do it. But it is always good to be prepared.
    Boy Scouts motto;
    "It is better to have it and not need it. Than to need it and not have it."

    BTW, this is my home defense shotgun.

    _k
  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian

    I grew up in a cop and Army dad household. Gun safety has been drilled into me for as long as I can remember.

    JokkeMassalinie
  • edcentricedcentric near Milwaukee, Wisconsin Icrontian

    If you are looking for cheap and legal let me tell you about high powered air rifles.
    All of mine are spring guns in either 0.177 or 0.25. The cocking force is a bit on the stiff side, but you get over 1000fps for a couple of cents per shot. I shoot them in my backyard.
    I do own a bunch of firearms, a Mossburg 22 semi-auto, a WWII Japanese carbine, a few old single shot shotguns, and a nice Wingmaster pump 12ga.
    A 12 ga is a lot more fun if you shoot clays with 7/8oz load at regular velocities. I only use 1 1/8 load for a match.
    I would like to get a newer rifle, looking at a bolt action chambered in 243WIN

  • Mt_GoatMt_Goat Head Cheezy Knob Pflugerville (north of Austin) Icrontian

    @edcentric, I love 243 Win. I own 2, one a pre64 model 70 and an older cir.80's Sako hunter model. Both were purchased used in excellent condition. The Sako wears a Leupold 2.5-10×42 and shoots single hole groups from the bench at 100yds and 1.5" groups at 200yds. The ammo pricing is reasonable purchased and spectacular when reloading. I cannot see ever being without a 243.

  • Creeperbane2Creeperbane2 Victorian Scoundrel Indianapolis, IN Icrontian

    This article may be if use.
    https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/9/26/8-affordable-home-defense-shotguns-under-200/
    Word of advice though, while at home get bird shot for home security, it has enough stopping power to deal with an intruder but not enough penetration to go through into your wall, or God forbid the neighbor's house. Some places also might have rock salt loads for a non lethal option that gets the idea across. Then again hopefully it's never needed for that, but better to have and not need than to need and not have. Also if it's legal in Detroit, dragons breath, for the range, trust me. Although piggybacking, can anyone recommend a good, reasonably priced side arm for an inexperienced shooter. My neighborhood has gotten... more dangerous as of late, two brakeins and an arson attempt just last month and I dont really feel my combat knife is a sufficent defensive option anymore.

  • the_technocratthe_technocrat IC-MotY1 Indy Icrontian

    I had a VP9 for HD, and it was an absolute joy to shoot. If you research it, "it's more accurate than you are" is a phrase you'll find often. Not sure what quality-per-dollar you're looking for, but that's a handgun I'd depend on in a HD situation.

  • Mt_GoatMt_Goat Head Cheezy Knob Pflugerville (north of Austin) Icrontian

    @Creeperbane2, I suggest going to a shop and see what feels best in your hand and you are most comfortable with as far as operating all the controls such as safety, magazine release, etc. While @the_technocrat and I are both HK fans I would suggest starting with S&W MP series, Glock and Sig for semi-autos. 9mm is kind of universal these days for caliber. I personally like the larger calibers. However the smaller calibers are easier to control including recover for follow up shots.

  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian

    Well, I held the VEPR-12 and fell in love. It's mine now.

    MAGICMt_Goat
  • colacola part legend, part devil... all man Balls deep Icrontian

    5 rounds of 12ga faster than you can say boo

  • BuddyJBuddyJ Dept. of Propaganda OKC Icrontian

    Nice shotty @primesuspect . Last year I went and got a Mossberg 500 Combat pump. I liked the controls on it better than the Remmington 870 and the price is about the same. Went a replaced the grip/stock with an AR-15 style to shorten it a bit so my wife can shoot it. I may go back to stock though. It looks "tacticool" but the ergonomics now kinda suck.

  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian

    @BuddyJ my nephew is pretty familiar with these and he was telling me that a new grip would make a big difference so I'm looking into that. I would probably like a different stock too, but I haven't poked around yet

  • Mt_GoatMt_Goat Head Cheezy Knob Pflugerville (north of Austin) Icrontian
    edited July 7

    Don't have the links handy right now. But there are a variety of folding, retractable and pistol grip stocks available. You can also get some nice super comfortable rubberized forestocks too. You can also get 12 round magazines for a reasonable price. Good find! B)

    primesuspectBuddyJ
  • BlueTattooBlueTattoo Boatbuilder Houston, TX Icrontian

    @Mt_Goat said:
    @Creeperbane2, I suggest going to a shop and see what feels best in your hand...

    That's a great place to start. You should try to find a range that will let you try different guns. It could help you get the right gun to start. My first gun (Colt Trooper) was fine in the store, but wasn't right at the range. I still have it, but it's very low mileage. Within a year or so, I bought a nice S&W 9 mm that is just right for me and is my carry and home defence gun. Everyone is different. Find what works for you. Then, you need to practice regularly and know what the laws are in your state for when you can use it.

  • SazbeanSazbean Paladins. Lawful good & violent about it. Chelsea, MI Icrontian

    Looking for air rifle recommendations -- couple of different applications -- 1) hunting/coyote control 2) home defense
    I get that an actual gun would be better for #2 but I'm not ready to take that step yet. Would take other non-lethal options for #2 besides my hands/feet/baseball bat.
    Separately, is there a non-macho-conservative-asshole place to learn how to shoot in SE michigan?

  • TheRicanTheRican Member

    Someone buy me a SR-15... daddy want shoot thingies :open_mouth:

    IMAGE ALT TEXT

  • ChipChip Dallas Member
    edited July 23

    @Sazbean said:
    Looking for air! rifle recommendations -- couple of different applications -- 1) hunting/coyote control 2) home defense
    I get that an actual gun would be better for #2 but I'm not ready to take that step yet. Would take other non-lethal options for #2 besides my hands/feet/baseball bat.
    Separately, is there a non-macho-conservative-asshole place to learn how to shoot in SE michigan?

    You may want to checkout https://byrna.com/ for non-lethal. I don't have any personal experience with it, but it's the best option I've seen out there. My conceal carry is a Sig Sauer P365 XL, which I LOVE. For cheap training, they sell a CO2 version of the Sig Sauer P365 that holds the same 12 rounds and looks identical to the real thing. It even features slide blow-back.!
    The real one is the top one. The CO2 version is the one below it.

    SazbeanBuddyJ
  • Creeperbane2Creeperbane2 Victorian Scoundrel Indianapolis, IN Icrontian
    edited July 27

    @Sazbean said:
    Looking for air rifle recommendations -- couple of different applications -- 1) hunting/coyote control 2) home defense
    I get that an actual gun would be better for #2 but I'm not ready to take that step yet. Would take other non-lethal options for #2 besides my hands/feet/baseball bat.
    Separately, is there a non-macho-conservative-asshole place to learn how to shoot in SE michigan?

    When youre ready, try a shotgun with rocksalt shells. Non lethal, but painful, causes the equivalent of a bad case of roadrash.
    As for shooting lessons try the police, many police departments provide good, non biased firearms education courses, also surprisingly enough while most who frequent gun ranges are conservative most don't give a damn about your political affiliation, bad form to talk politics anyway, most are there to do the same thing you are, keep their skills sharp so if one day their gun is needed (which they pray that day will never come). They'll be ready.

    ChipSazbean
  • edcentricedcentric near Milwaukee, Wisconsin Icrontian

    Air rifles are cheap to shoot (a few cents per pellet) and there are options. The serious ones come in two flavors, spring guns (barrel break or side lever) and Pre-Charged (PCP).
    The spring guns will get you some nice guns, 0.22 cal and about 1,000fps. This is one that I like that isn't too expensive, https://www.umarexusa.com/umarex-octane-elite-22-black
    This is what I use, I haven't killed a coyote with it, but at 50yrds it scares the hell out of them and it makes short work of anything smaller (opossums, rabbits, ground hogs, and such).
    In PCP there is more up front cost. you need to pressurize air into the canisters. You can start with a hand pump and filling individual canisters that go on the rifle, but most people end up with a high pressure compressor and a couple of small SCUBA style tanks so that they can store more air and keep refilling the canisters from those. These are available from 0.177 up through 0.50. And trust me shooting 500gr slugs from an air gun in a Hoot. But to be honest you are likely better off with a 0.25cal like this, https://www.umarexusa.com/ux-gauntlet-25-black
    Here are some other good sources to look at:
    https://www.pyramydair.com/
    https://www.midwayusa.com/
    https://www.airgundepot.com/airguns-accessories.html
    https://www.precisionairgunsandsupplies.com/

    Sazbean
  • edcentricedcentric near Milwaukee, Wisconsin Icrontian

    The problem with pellet pistols is that you are shooting 0.177 at low velocity. Some barrel break guns will reach 700fps, but CO2 limits you to <400fps, chipmunk category, not enough energy to hurt larger animals.
    The are fun and do look and handle just like firearms, https://www.umarexusa.com/pellet-pistols#/specFilters=3m!#-!7
    Or if you really want to have fun get an MP-5 BB gun. BB machine guns will make you smile as you shoot them.
    https://www.umarexusa.com/bb-gun-rifles

    Sazbean
  • RyanFodderRyanFodder Detroit, MI Icrontian

    We have one of these:
    https://www.airgundepot.com/gamo-silent-stalker-igt-air-rifle-177.html
    its rated for 1300 fps in theory.
    Somehow, the scope keeps losing its aim. I don't think we've dropped it or anything like that, and I can't find any loose bolts on the scope or mount... Hopefully the scope isn't bad?

  • edcentricedcentric near Milwaukee, Wisconsin Icrontian

    Ryan, Gamo are notorious for being 'loose' guns. Remember that the barrels move on these guns. That is why people pay twice the price for a RWS. My experience with Umarex has been good, but rather limited.

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