Needing a racer's opinion...

aspieRommelaspieRommel Icrontic politicoIndianapolis, IN Icrontian
edited February 2015 in The Pub

I was watching this vid the other day. It is the GT2 finish at Laguna Seca in 2009. While watching it, I noticed the comments about the finish. They included, in paraphrase: "The Porsche drove dirty.", "The Corvette drove dirty.", "The Porsche shouldn't have blocked and spin the Corvette.", "The Corvette shouldn't have tapped the Porsche on Turn 11 because the Porsche had the racing line.", and on and on and on. In my opinion, last lap= anything goes (of course just short of wrecking someone) . I also do not like walk-away wins. But what do you guys think in regards to the last few laps. Just curious.

aspieRommel

Comments

  • UPSLynxUPSLynx :KAPPA: Redwood City, CA Icrontian

    Dirty, needlessly dangerous driving from both the GT2 drivers. Porsche driver shouldn't have gave the Vette that bump at the end of turn 2 putting him in the dirt, and the Vette shouldn't have slammed the Porsche going into the final turn causing that whole mess. They should both be fined.

    Ultimately the Porsche driver was worse, driving the vette to the wall and spinning him was terrible, and the danger he put the vette driver in with that wall hit after the spin was way too high and not worth causing just to take the win. Motorsport isn't wrestling. This isn't "anything goes" under any circumstances, because it's one of the most dangerous competitive sports on the planet.

    The whole thing is pretty sketch at the end of the day. The Corvette was clearly the faster car and had plenty of opportunities to overtake, but the Porsche driver was WAY too defensive. All those bumps and cut-offs. Too risky. Sure it'll get you the win, but it's hardly worth it at the end of the day.

  • RyanFodderRyanFodder Detroit, MI Icrontian

    Never worth putting someone's life on the line.

    UPSLynx
  • aspieRommelaspieRommel Icrontic politico Indianapolis, IN Icrontian

    @UPSLynx I must admit I am more used to oval racing where you anticipate a slight tap on the last lap (Not too much to spin him out, just enough to move him.) and that's what I meant by "anything goes".

  • pseudonympseudonym Michigan Icrontian

    So long winded explanation coming.

    Basically I see no problem with anything till the last turn. His defensive driving is perfectly clean up until that point, aggressive, but clean. The bump in turn 2 is because the Porsche gets a bit loose when he gets on the throttle and the rear kicks out. He DOES run him to the edge of the track but he is in front and owns the line, nothing wrong there. When you try to get around the outside, that is going to happen most of the time. To make that move stick you need to be completely alongside him.

    So I think there are two scenarios -

    1) The big problem is when the Vette bumps him coming onto the front straight. It is already a bit difficult to get the power down there, so getting into the back of the Porsche makes it hard to get to the throttle as hard as he normally does. This makes the Porsche run the Vette to the wall, as the Vette now has a run on him and the Porsche has the right to defend and the added right to push the Vette around a bit after that bump IMO. I don't think he has the right to spin him out though and I don't think he did it on purpose out of spite as he might have good grounds for a protest with the bump. Rather I think they bumped enough and it is very slippery and dirty next to the wall that the Vette came around, I don't think that is on purpose.

    2) Now the OTHER end of it can be that the Porsche slows down on purpose at the exit of the turn. This is a little trick to make the guy behind you have to check up a bit and not get a good run, but in this case it bites him in the ass, he gets hit as the Vette doesn't expect it, and he loses all his exit speed. Without seeing corner speed data, this is hard to tell though. This is what Jan (The Vette) says happened.

    So what do we get from this? I don't think the Vette wreck was intentional as this was a very good clean race up until this point, the Porsche had plenty of times to do something much less obvious. At the last turn the Vette is out of the race, he has no chance to get by him by start finish unless he hits him or the Porsche makes a mistake. So either the Vette hits him on purpose, or the Porsche makes him check up, and there is no real way to tell without an in car and some data. If the Vette hits him on purpose, his own fault, you get what you deserve. I am not a fan of bump and run tactics in road racing or in oval racing, get by because you are faster, not because you can use him as brakes (This all changes if the guy is violently blocking, but this is not that case). If the Porsche checked up and the Vette hit him by accident, it's all the Porsche's fault. He should have just let him go as his tactical error cost him the race. He should have just treated the corner as he would have any other lap, and he would have won without any drama.

    So to make a true call, I need in-car data and video maybe, but I think this may have been a case of the Porsche driver out thinking himself, and he probably should have been penalized for running the Vette all the way to the wall. Go ahead and run him down there on the last lap, but not so much that you are both touching. Soooo negative 50 points to the Porsche, or somesuch number if I have to make a call on this.

    BuddyJprimesuspectThraxRyanFodderBobbyDigiUPSLynxChoochHero
  • BuddyJBuddyJ Dept. of Propaganda OKC Icrontian
    edited February 2015

    @pseudonym drops the mic.

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  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian

    Moonspeak.Car go honk honk zoom and hitting the stopper and making the go.

    BuddyJUPSLynx
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian

    Knowledge bomb applied directly to the forethread.

  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian

    Knowledge bomb applied directly to the forethread.

  • aspieRommelaspieRommel Icrontic politico Indianapolis, IN Icrontian

    @pseudonym Not trying to take away from what you said (that was a great explanation by the way), but sometimes you are the fastest car behind someone slower but they make their car so wide that you can't get by them. Another possibility is that Jan just got frustrated at the end. Remember, this was back in 2009, when Corvettes were pretty powerful in mechanical downforce (I believe that is what it's called. Can't exactly remember) and speed. And as we saw, he made numerous clean pass attempts (Not counting the pass through pit exit) but couldn't get that run.

  • doabarrellrolldoabarrellroll San Jose, CA Icrontian

    Oh wow, I posted this race in another thread without knowing this got posted here, lol...

    This type of blocking is extremely dangerous with cars this quick. That's why F1 only allows you 1 defensive move between corners, otherwise, they would fling back and forth covering them out and potentially causing ridiculous wrecks like the one above. Here's an instance of Schumacher squeezing out Barrichello at Hungary in

    A summary of the post-event activities:

    Schumacher's aggressive driving in attempting to prevent Barrichello from overtaking drew strong criticism from commentators and former drivers, including triple World Champion Niki Lauda and former Schumacher team-mates Eddie Irvine and Martin Brundle.[7][8] Triple World Champion Jackie Stewart commented "We are never more than a millimetre away from something awful happening and for Schumacher to do what he did with Rubens Barrichello is just inviting disaster. ... It was one of the most blatant abuses of another driver that I have seen. It is a terrible example from a man who has seven world titles, bully-boy tactics."[9] Schumacher publicly defended his actions after the race and in the Stewards' hearing, but did subsequently admit that he was wrong and apologised to Barrichello. Derek Warwick, one of the stewards for the race, commented that Schumacher could have been shown the black flag, resulting in an instant disqualification, had there been more time left in the race for the stewards to review the video evidence.[10] Schumacher was shown a black flag earlier in his career, at the 1994 British Grand Prix, for ignoring a 5 second stop-and-go penalty; he received a two race ban for ignoring the black flag and continuing to race rather than returning to the pits as instructed.[11]

    Very bad form on the part of the Porsche. With the amount of traffic in the different types of chassis, an ALMS driver should really be maintaining a high level of attention to safety and not getting "red mist" like this.

    UPSLynx
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