Building my first gaming PC, have a high budget. Need Help :)

BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
edited October 2008 in Hardware
Being here on Icrontic (but majority Short-Media) I have had lots of assistance whenever I had problems and I say Thank you. But now I am going to step it up to the next level.

I have always been a hardcore gamer but have never had the time or the money to make my PC, but now with summer and having banked quite a bit of money its time to build my first computer.

Ok so after 3 years of sticking with my Dell and upgrading as far as it can go, and with new games like Age of Conan with my friend playing it. Its time to upgrade.

Now I have replaced power supply, ram, hard drive, sound card, video card, CD drives. But never have touched mounting a motherboard in, the stock fan for the processor, putting the processor chip in place. Also have read how to overclock so I will be experimenting with that. My PC experience is sub-par I guess.

And I have been saving quite a bit of money for this moment. My budget is $2,500 and I will also be getting a monitor (and headset, maybe a mouse)

I might reformat my hard drive and use it in my new computer I don’t see anything wrong with it.

Ok so now for some random questions…

1. What’s the benefit of running two cards and how do you hook it up? One DVI cord coming from one card and another DVI cord coming from the other and the monitor has 2 DVI ports? And I guess you plug them both into one monitor?
2. Also what about HDMI? Is it significantly better than DVI.
3. As for hard drives maybe I am confused, If I get a raptor 10,000 RPM and install my operating system on it then use my Seagate in my signature as what I will put my music, games, and other files. Would this increase my performance of my PC?
Does it work like this?

I really don’t know where to begin tell you the truth, I don’t want to let you guys do all the work. There’s a lot of motherboards and processors I really don’t know where to start.

I am wanting to build a PC that can have fantastic frames per second at full settings on crisis or age of conan ect. My budget will probably increase if this my business this week picks up which it will. I am going to go with air cooling, water cooling just sounds a bit intimidating.

Looking at wielding these video cards…. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130344
Maybe two of them.

I guess to summarize what I am asking, what can you suggest motherboard wise and processor wise for the PC I am trying to achieve. Maybe a full tower case suggestion too 
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Comments

  • Your-Amish-DaddyYour-Amish-Daddy The heart of Texas
    edited May 2008
    Ok, you're asking alot of questions so I'll do this my best.

    The GX2 is already 2 cards. SLI/Xfire work by linking cards with a few pins to create a master/slave bus. TRI-SLI and 4Xfire have a daisy chain thing going on, each one talks to the next, but the first card (Usually the top) is the boss hog. It actually handles output. Back in the day of Crossfire/SLI, you used a joined DVI cable, each one used half of the display from one to the other.

    HDMI is for tele's, not for monitors. HDMI is a secured, encryptable audio/video bus. DVI is a video bus that in some cases can be taught to carry audio. DVI has a peak bandwidth of 9.6GB/S, HDMI is somewhere around 24 I think. Granted it is faster, it's also encrypted. If your device supports DVI, use it and save 90 bucks on a HDMI cable.

    If you put your OS on the Raptor, I'd say use a median device to store what's on your Seagate 7200.10 if it has an OS on it, and format it. Otherwise you're going to have to break the boot sector and remove the OS. Not sure how to do that. Hell, I figure you can just leave the drive absent during your OS install, and then just plug it in when it's done. The guys here will know more about removing an OS from a drive.

    Tell you the truth, I hate the build you're going for already. Truth be told I'm a very power conscious person, And the 9800 GX2 isn't as tough as the 3870 X2. Nvidia didn't impress this time around. 2,500 can build you alot of computer, but it can also raise your light bill quite a bit. SLI/Xfire can almost double the power your computer hits the wall at. I'm sure you've already decided to go all out on power, but know you performance means more than frames per second. It also means heat generation and power consumption.

    That's my opinion. I could be wrong.

    Also, now that I think about it...It's not very...smart..To spend 2500 on a computer that will only last you about two years. I spent 300 to build this one last year, and I've put...420 into it on upgrades and maintenance, including last year's drive replacement. It's still current tech, even though it's not a quad. The 4600 is still kickin' ass, but not as hard as say..300 dollar chips? When I played Crysis on my 1900XT, I played on medium because I was missing that 128mb of memory extra. It looked friggin' spectacular. Sure, I didn't get AA or AS, but why use AA at 1280x1024? Oh sure it adds like what..300 polies globally on the screen that smooth out softer objects? Woopity doo. At higher resolutions, you don't need AA. AS I can understand. Sure you don't want a building looking like ass from a click away, but why bother? You're just gonna trash it when you get close enough. I've also heard the futureproofing argument, but why bother? It's cheaper STILL to upgrade a few major components every year, than build a new one every 3. 2500/36= 70 bucks a month PER the term. Upgrading a few pieces here and there to stay current...You've seen my posts. I've spent just about a thousand total. I can play all of the games these guys do, TF2, Crysis, and such to nearly the same extent. I also don't have a 900 dollar monitor. If I want better than 1280x1024, I'll use my tele. And I'm sure someone's going to say "Wow, 1000 over a year's time? That's more than #VALUE Per month! You're full of ass! All I have to say is "I don't have to spend that again. Just another 130 again next year to upgrade my processor." See, I win.

    Sorry. I feel compelled to voice my big nose.
  • rapturerapture
    edited May 2008
    I don't think SLI is worth it unless you intend to run games at insane resolutions. It won't help you play the next generation of games that much and ads a crap load of money to your build.

    Maybe have a look at Cooler Master for cases, the insides are really nice to work with I thought. Dominator and Cosmos cases look good.

    A Western Digital VelociRaptor could solve your hard drive problems.
  • sharkydartsharkydart KY Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    Start with this
  • Your-Amish-DaddyYour-Amish-Daddy The heart of Texas
    edited May 2008
    Yeah, that's really cool if you plan to spend 200 bucks extra on your light bill.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    I've been in your boat before. You really don't want to spend more than $1000 on your case and the things that go inside it due to the wicked depreciation curve. Four years ago, I spent $5k or so on a dual Opteron rig with all the trimmin's back when it looked like s940 was going to be around for awhile, Opteron was the only 64-bit processor that would run x86 worth a damn, and Pentium 4 was getting nastier every day and Intel didn't appear to have a sustainable product line. It was more or less obsolete in two years and I'd be lucky to get about $200 for what was in it today. Since it was bleeding edge hardware it had all sorts of quirks that were fun to work around. Do yourself a favor and buy something mature. I still use my dual Athlons though I'm slowly phasing them out in favor of Core2 boxes that do everything they do at a fraction of the cost to own and cost to operate. The mobo on the Opterons has long since crapped out and I'm left searching eBay for 1U barebones Opteron servers to try and recoup some of that expense.

    If that money is burning a hole in your pocket, blow it on peripherals. After all, they're the part of your computer you interact with the most. My Dell Ultrasharp 2405FPW is worth every penny of its $800 price tag then and now. A nice, solid monitor will last you a long time. Buy an awesome mouse and keyboard; I like IBM Model M keyboards and Logitech mice. I picked up a M13 on eBay for $100 used and have used it every day for the past four years. Not bad for a keyboard manufactured in 1996, though it does need a new cable.

    To answer your questions:
    1. What’s the benefit of running two cards and how do you hook it up?

    Two cards can share the rendering load so that you can play games at higher FPS. I don't know how the ATI solution works; I stopped caring after I noticed that they required a special master card that cost a whole lot to upgrade. That and their Linux support sucks (my Radeon 9800 Pro still can't play UT2k4 on Linux at a playable framerate; not a problem on my GeForce 3). Nvidia's solution calls for a couple or more cards plugged into PCI-E slots on your motherboard that are connected to each other internally by a special coupling card that comes with your motherboard. Only one cable goes from the computer to your monitor.

    Performance doesn't scale linearly with the number of cards added so I don't consider it a very good value. Add in the fact that one of those 9800GX2's will run nearly anything at max detail and will likely be able to render most anything at acceptable detail for several years and I don't see the attraction of owning more than one. Hell, a 9800GT will get the job done for a whole lot less and you won't cringe so much if you want something nicer two years down the line.

    2. Also what about HDMI? Is it significantly better than DVI.

    HDMI is useful if you plan to connect your PC to a TV or projector. DVI and HDMI use the same signaling though so it doesn't really matter what kind your card has. Adapter cables exist and in my experience are cheaper than DVI-DVI and HDMI-HDMI cables of the same length. HDMI has the potential benefit of being spec'd to carry audio signals alongside the video but in practice most computer HDMI-equipped cards don't implement this feature.

    3. As for hard drives maybe I am confused, If I get a raptor 10,000 RPM and install my operating system on it then use my Seagate in my signature as what I will put my music, games, and other files. Would this increase my performance of my PC?

    I've been there and honestly for the kind of usage patterns gamers and normal people generate you're not going to notice the difference between running your PC on a 10k RPM drive or a modern 7200 RPM drive. Seek times on the 7200.10's are like 10-11ms which is quite excellent for nearly all users. Sustained transfer rates on that drive beat the socks off my old dual 160GB RAID 0. I use one in my LAN box and I'm always first on the map after a map change on IC TF2. Also, setting up your PC to be useful and run transparently from two hard drives is a pain in the ass.

    As far as suggesting hardware is concerned, Intel Wolfdales are cheap, low-power consumption, and fast. If you are dead set on a multi-graphics card solution then you're going to want to find a motherboard with a chipset compatible with your GPU vendor's multi-card solution. That means Nvidia chipsets for Nvidia and Intel/VIA/AMD chipsets for ATI/AMD. Gigabyte motherboards with the P35 and X38 chipsets have been getting rave reviews on the Intel side; just do your homework. Get your memory from OCZ or Ryder will kick down your door. I like CoolerMaster, Lian Li, and Antec chassis. I've heard the Antec 900 chassis is pretty nice. The CM Stacker is just too big though their current crop of Centurion cases are easy to work in, look nice, and are cheap. You'll want to get a nice power supply like an Antec TruePower, OCZ GameStream, or PC Power & Cooling to replace whatever comes in your case.

    Also, get a UPS with line conditioning. Mine goes on battery a couple of times a week randomly and every time the washer/dryer kick on. Those are power dips and spikes that aren't eating my power supply from the inside out, turning it into a ticking time bomb waiting to pwn all my hardware.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • _k_k P-Town, Texas Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    There is a current benefit for running two video cards if you are planning on using a 22in+ monitor at high resolution, so around a 1080i(had to use th hype term). As it was said monitors don't come in HDMI currently, though there are some Dell TVs/Monitors that have it built in. With DVI there is a 7.9Gbit limit while HDMI has a 10.2Gbit limit(Wikipedia), but DVI still will carry insane resolutions. If you are going to use a raptor I would say install OS and main software that you are going to use a lot on there so you get fast boot times but it also carries over to your software apps as well. Check these x38 boards for a starting point. A lot of people are doing the quad processor thing, there is still the duals too. The video card is really high end. Cooler Master Cases are always nice, some Lian-li's are sick if you are looking to drop 200+ on a full tower(taller than your dell).

    As for wanting to carry over your old hard-drive. Something really easy is to either stick it into an enclosure to read information off once you have the new build done to store and migrate data. The other thing you can do is put it internally on your new machine just leave the data cable unplugged during regular install and then connect it in and then just keep it there save data and if you want to wipe it clean you just need to delete the partition and reformat the whole drive.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    Meh, I've never had any problems gaming on my WUXGA and QXGA displays with any decent gaming card. All you need is sufficient framebuffer (graphics RAM) to draw a picture that big and enough GPU power to render your game at that resolution. Turn off antialiasing and you'll be fine. You won't need it at that resolution anyway; I challenge you to notice jagged edges in the middle of a game on a 90-100 dpi display.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • _k_k P-Town, Texas Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    Give me one that is 5 feet across and I will. If you are running something that large its more to do with the video memory and if you have enough processor to feed the card what it needs to do the job.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    drasnor wrote:
    I challenge you to notice jagged edges in the middle of a game on a 90-100 dpi display.
    That doesn't describe a projector or TV.

    This does though:
    attachment.php?attachmentid=25490&stc=1&d=1212196844
    The fuzzies on screen are camera artifacts from a slow shutter speed. Look at the edges of the fonts for a better impression of what's going on. Resolution is 720p and screen size is about 10 ft across.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • _k_k P-Town, Texas Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    I wish I was a penguin sliding down a ski slope like that. A man can dream can't he.
  • Your-Amish-DaddyYour-Amish-Daddy The heart of Texas
    edited May 2008
    Especially at that speed man. That'd own so friggin' hard.
  • -MBG--De-Sniper-MBG--De-Sniper Alaska
    edited May 2008
    I would suggest this 23in. Monitor w/ built in speakers 1080P
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824112008

    This Keyboard Saitek Eclipse W/blue backlighting for dark room playing
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823175103

    The G5 gaming mouse which I have 2 of and will never go back to a regular mouse
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104076&Tpk=g5%2bmouse

    or the G7 Gaming Wireless Mouse
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104203&Tpk=g7%2bmouse

    The logitech G9 gaming mouse also looks pretty good.
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104079&Tpk=g9%2bmouse

    The case Xion XON-303 (blue led light on side fan, I have the older version of this case with the smaller fans and its got plenty of room and does a really good job of keeping things cool) or -301 (Green light on side fan)
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=xion+onyx+case&x=0&y=0

    I'd say you dont need a video card that expensive the 8800gtx or even the 9800GTX will work good even. I have the 8600gt in this laptop and it works good for a mobile card. In the desktop I have the 9600GT and it works about the same as my 8600GT.

    4gigs of 1066Ram

    Ya, I'd get a raptor drive since you have the money.

    I'm not going to suggest a headset because the one I have is a pain on the ear.

    I'm not sure on this but 650watt PSU should be good. I'm not an expert, so I don't really know :D

    I don't know about sound cards either I havnt had enough money to use one, I use the onboard sound.

    My CD/DVD drive is a burner drive that burns DVD and CD's its the cheapest Philips drive it works good
    But never have touched mounting a motherboard in, the stock fan for the processor, putting the processor chip in place.

    None of these are very hard. You gotta make sure your case supports the MotherBoard you get and vice-versa.
    The stockfan is probably the hardest to put on. Mine almost completely fell off 1-2 days after I built it. :(
    Putting the processor chip in/spreading thermal grease on it isnt hard either. You can use the stock thermal pad but it doesnt cool as well as the grease.

    Processor all depends on how much you want to spend
    I'd get either Core2Duo, Core2Extreme, or Core2Quad.

    My next build is going to be a 3.0ghz Core2Duo. If I can sell the other computer I just made a short while ago, I want to build another one. I think I'm addicted. lol
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    Well just been doing so thinking and I think I have a solid setup here...

    I have a 24" monitor covered, my mouse is fine, keyboards fine.
    The monitor is excluded from my price.


    Case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119136

    What do you think of this case?

    Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188025

    or this one? Uses DDR2

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188024

    Processor: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115042

    Should I go with quad core? Better than dual core? for gaming.

    Memory for the Motherboard (for DDR3): OCZ since I like their stuff.
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227293

    Ehhh honestly DDR3 seems to be getting mixed reviews is it stable? I know it has potential tho.

    Video cards quad SLI: So 2 of these cards. I like BFG so I'll go with them.
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143128

    So everything above I am at 2457 but again I am willing to bend and just go with 3000 dollar budget. Or take off a video card.

    What is a good CPU cooler? Also the power supply is included in the case but heavy possibility I will get the version where there is no power supply (just the case) and get a power supply with it. The version without one is out of stock.

    Also should I get a floppy drive for flashing the Bios?
  • _k_k P-Town, Texas Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    All I really have to say about it all is check my sig. The 780i boards are the same as the 680i boards expect with an extra chip to enable 3 way SLI. Also if you use two of those cards you have to use Windows Vista for the drivers to work for the quad SLI.
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    Oh seriously? Lol man....


    UHHHHHHHHH

    Well... I'll think about that :P Could be time to go vista.... well see.
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    http://www.slizone.com/object/slizone_quadsli.html

    Now I am not sure but with the motherboard I suggested, the ultra. How is the onboard sound on it? Because it doesn't look like I can fit a sound card after that.
  • _k_k P-Town, Texas Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    You have the first PCI slot still open thats it, so you can do off board sound. I am using the realtek 64 bit driver and my mic sucks for volume other than that its alright.
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    Its fine to run 1 on windows xp 64 bit
    but if you try quad you HAVE to have vista?
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    I have been watching some nice tutorials of water cooling on youtube. Wow it looks quite easy in my opinion but do you guys think its worth it? I mean running a quad SLI would produce some pretty hefty heat wouldn't it?
  • Your-Amish-DaddyYour-Amish-Daddy The heart of Texas
    edited May 2008
    Yeah and require one hell of a power supply. If you're hell bent to waste that kind of money, waste it on ATI. They consume less power.
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    So for all the questions I hope someone can reply to all of them...

    Wouldn't a additional sound card (close to all the cards) be pretty hot?
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    Your Amish Daddy wrote:
    Yeah and require one hell of a power supply. If you're hell bent to waste that kind of money, waste it on ATI. They consume less power.

    Well thats what I am wondering I mean... with that case and all the fans it has plus maybe additional fans I think it would do instead of water cooling because water cooling is pretty expensive...

    Yeah I see what you mean, water cooling and a quad sli along with everything. It would be a pretty mean power hog.

    I wonder if my lights and my TV in my room would not work cause of this computer.
  • revorocksrevorocks England, East Sussex, Hove Member
    edited May 2008
    I'de say you would be better off going for a q6600, its alot cheaper than the on you linked too and its stupidly overclockable. it would save you a bit of money and whats the point of spending money just because you have it. you could buy another hdd with the saved money.
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    True
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    Well as you guys can assume I am contemplating new stuff

    So I took a look on youtube as for RAID 0 and 1 setup

    Honestly I back up my data every weekend just in case, it doesn't take long at all to update what I did for the week. (I have a couple flash, including the OCZ 32GB one)
    I think thats raid 1 for mirroring data.

    Raid 0 is interesting but honestly the only benefit would be faster loading times, and loading the application or program when it starts, and faster boot times. Thats about it?
    Or is there something I missed.

    Honestly in online games your going to have to wait for whoever is loading anyway, and sometimes loading times are a breather in my opinion :P

    My hard drive right now is perfectly fine I got it 2 months ago when my hard drive died. What I want to know is if I get a Raptor 10,000 RPM and install my games on it will my games load faster because they are installed on the raptor? Does it work like this?

    I would make my 150gb raptor for games maybe even the operating system then my 750 for my music, movies, other files.

    Is there a great benefit of this? or not by much.
  • _k_k P-Town, Texas Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    Yeah to run quad SLI the driver for it from NVidia only works in windows vista. The water blocks for the 9800x2 just came out recently and they are $200 a pop. Not all of them coming with fittings. Running water is only really going to be worth it if you want to overclock items a lot. For normal operation you would want to check temps when you first build and make sure there is good air flow but water is not necessary.

    The q9450 has kind of stupid crazy OC that it can do, maxs at around 478 bus so close to 3.9. It can be done on air and pushes a FSB of 1900+.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    Bubbleman wrote:
    So I took a look on youtube as for RAID 0 and 1 setup

    Raid 0 is interesting but honestly the only benefit would be faster loading times, and loading the application or program when it starts, and faster boot times. Thats about it?

    Honestly in online games your going to have to wait for whoever is loading anyway, and sometimes loading times are a breather in my opinion :P

    My hard drive right now is perfectly fine I got it 2 months ago when my hard drive died. What I want to know is if I get a Raptor 10,000 RPM and install my games on it will my games load faster because they are installed on the raptor? Does it work like this?

    I would make my 150gb raptor for games maybe even the operating system then my 750 for my music, movies, other files.
    You don't want to do a RAID unless you're buying a real RAID card; not the software RAID bundled with your motherboard which has high CPU overhead. That means a stupidly expensive PCI-E SAS card with onboard batteries and RAID 5. Let me reiterate not worth it for a desktop. I ran a 6-disk U160 10k RPM RAID 5 for awhile and am speaking from experience here. Yes, it will marginally improve your load times. Yes, it makes your storage system a lot less reliable.

    If you are dead set on that 10k RPM Raptor then yeah, what you say is true. Your games will load marginally faster. You're making your system unnecessarily quirky in the process though; I've been there and the added complexity isn't worth it. Especially when your "slow" drive is very fast. Also, if you do really want to go this route you will need to put your OS and all your software on the Raptor to have a chance of seeing the difference.

    I'm not convinced that you would notice much of a difference anyway, but you will between whatever computer you have now and this one.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • mas0nmas0n howdy Icrontian
    edited May 2008
    You want your OS and applications on the fastest drive (the raptor) and just use the 750GB drive for storage. And yes, if you did this you should notice a speed increase especially in OS and game load times.

    Avoid RAID 0 like the plague for now.

    I'll also echo the calls here that SLi is a waste of money unless you run a 30" panel; especially if we're talking bleeding-edge cards. As stated earlier 2 x 9800GX2 requires Vista to work right now. So, you get the benefit of 4 GPUs, but you have to run Vista, which is in my experience roughly 10% slower than XP on the same hardware when it comes to gaming. I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.

    One thing I did not see asked yet is what games do you play? The rig in my signature plays everything but Crysis at 1680 x 1050 with 16AA and 16AF while rarely dropping below 60fps. Single GPU. The real problem with running multiple high end cards is that despite all recent advances it's still just a matter of how fast your CPU is. 4 GPUs sounds great, but unless you're running a Core2 Quad @ 4GHz+ your not even beginning to utilize those cards.

    Getting into a DDR3 motherboard would not be a bad move right now if you want to futureproof a bit, but save your money and buy "slow" RAM with tight timings. Regardless of the RAM's external frequency it will not run faster than your FSB can feed it.
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    Yeah I see now... Hmmm Well I will rework some stuff then. Well I think I will just use 1 card then. I think I might still stick with this board because it looks to be quite good for the future.

    I am thinking of only running a 24 inch monitor playing mainly crysis, cod4, age of conan, world of conflict also.

    So with a 24 inch monitor I guess I should be fine then. Also frees up some money in my pocket now.

    I will also be doing a bit of overclocking with that yorksfield and I am not sure of the GPU probably a tiny nudge on it. But I think that coolermaster or a lian li case with air flow should be fine. Dont you think? Honestly I don't mind water cooling since you don't have to change it, only add to it when it gets low I think...

    I might buy a raptor for my operating systems and games. A 150gb should do. I do understand that it would get quirky but if it makes a difference in the slightest.
  • BubblemanBubbleman A Desert
    edited May 2008
    Are those PCI slot cards with the fans on them any good at all? I mean the freakin thing is in armor I dont think it would phase it.

    What are your suggestions for a heat sink for my CPU?
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