PCI: Why won't it die?

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Comments

  • edited December 2009
    Remember the initial outcry when Microsoft stopped supporting DOS?

    I only remember the tears of joy in my eyes.

    Some companies are driven by market, some of them drive the market. I think the latter is better for investment.
  • djmephdjmeph Detroit Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    I think the reason why the PCI standard still exists so prevalently is because of the sheer amount of PCI devices that were made and are still out there. For example, on my DAW I still use a Creative Labs Audigy 2 PCI sound card, just so I don't have to take the performance hit with the on-board sound. I also have about three different TV-tuner cards laying around that I use from time-to-time. If it weren't for the fact that the standard was around for so long, and there are still so many PCI cards out there, I think they would have disappeared a while ago.
  • TimTim Southwest PA Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    PCI slots -- the Internet Explorer 6 of computer hardware!

    There are many PCI devices out there now, that can still be used and don't need the bandwidth of a PCI Express slot to do their job, like modem cards and FireWire cards and sound cards. No one wants to buy a new card because new motherboards don't have PCI slots anymore. Some people will want their PCI Express slots for other high end uses like gaming graphics and crossfire.
  • photodudephotodude Salt Lake, Utah Member
    edited December 2009
    djmeph wrote:
    If it weren't for the fact that the standard was around for so long, and there are still so many PCI cards out there, I think they would have disappeared a while ago.

    ISA was around for a long time too, and there was a lot of ISA boards made. yet ISA almost vanished when PCI was first released. I'm starting to think for many people PCI is "good enough" for some applications hence little support for PCIe

    I also just thought about the standards and slots issue (PCIe1.x, PCIe2.x, PCIe x1 PCIe x4 PCIe x8 PCIex16). I think a lot of consumers are confused by all the standards and slots in the PCIe arena.
    djmeph wrote:
    I still use a Creative Labs Audigy 2 PCI sound card, just so I don't have to take the performance hit with the on-board sound.
    There really isn't any performance hit for using on-board sound anymore(2006 and newer). In some cases adding a sound card can add problems; driver conflicts, hardware conflicts, bad drivers from the sound card manufacturer, additional hardware that might fail, Hardware that is inferior to the on-board hardware, etc. As has been stated several times most on-board sound is great for 99% of people.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    I don't really see the need for PCI to die right now. Sorry if it's blemishing your motherboard, but where I work we just managed to get to PCI from ISA. National Instruments doesn't offer any of its hardware in PCI-E yet and probably won't for another few years.

    I tend to use PS/2 keyboards since having to figure out which USB keyboards can read more than three simultaneous keypresses is a PITA. My Das Keyboard II can but my Logitech DiNovo Edge can't do it. Using more than one F-key at the same time seems to trip the Caps Lock periodically as well. My IBM Type M may be a beast but it will work forever.

    Likewise with sound; I've seen decent motherboard sound implementations but you don't really know what you're getting until you have the computer all put together and the OS installed. The feature list for the motherboard isn't going to tell you if the analog outputs are poorly isolated from ground noise and motherboard reviewers don't seem to care if the sound hisses when you drag windows. What am I supposed to do if the motherboard has crappy internal sound (I'm looking at you, Gigabyte?) Am I really going to disassemble my PC, pull the motherboard, and mail it back to Newegg and wait a couple weeks for a replacement? I've got a stockpile of PCI sound cards with good isolation and DACs that I can use but I still haven't seen a PCI-E sound card that I'd be willing to dosh out for.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    Yes, all engineer types, we know that backwards-ass DACs run on PCI. We're talking about the mainstream here.

    I keep seeing "my work uses PCI". Your work is not buying the latest high end gaming rig either.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    My work tends to become homework, so the interest is legitimate :vimp:.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • photodudephotodude Salt Lake, Utah Member
    edited December 2009
    drasnor wrote:
    National Instruments doesn't offer any of its hardware in PCI-E yet and probably won't for another few years.

    NI offers a lot of their stuff via USB connections, which is how we interfaced with the stuff they had at the last NI seminar I attended, I expect NI will continue to use external devices with USB, rather then PCIe, as it's more convenient, safer and faster to move the device from computer to computer. There are many people who want to move NI devices from computer to computer as need for the device arises rather then having dedicated hardware that shouldn't be moved all the time.

    PCI is not just a blemish, it's taking away a space that could be used for another PCIe x16 slot. More PCIe x16 is better (if you can afford to add all the cards to fill your slots, I've seen ATX boards with 7 PCIe x16 slots, and that's a lot of money needed to fill all those slots)
  • yaggayagga Havn't you heard? ... New
    edited December 2009
    I don't know if we need pci to quite die off yet, but I definitely agree that pci-xpress has taken a while to adopt. I have seen for a good year or so now a lot more pci-xpress cards around, so I definitely would choose that over pci if I had the choice, in which I don't, because my high end pc is based off of netburst technology.

    My concern with pci-xpress is that very few boards offer many x1s, and almost none offer them in the x4, or x8 flavors, and they are always next to x16s which can make them useless with the right graphics card(s).

    I also want to say I like ps2 ports, simply because you can't really put the plug in backwards (like usb), and they hold the plug SNUGLY (completely opposite of usb), and when I need to look around the back I also know what's what and don't have to guess so much on what this or that usb cord goes to. They also ALWAYS WORK PERIOD with ANYTHING I MIGHT BE USING. They are color coded. And, old 10lb(ish) SOLID keyboards fit this port.

    For me, Motherboards must have:
    1. PS2-mouse
    2. PS2-keyboard
    3. Gigabit ethernet (1 minimum, 2 is nice for the sake of 'if one dies')
    4. 6/8ish USB2 (or v.3 now)(more is crazy, and bad on real estate space)(4 might even be okay, 2 is a no-go!)
    5. Firewire (just in case I need it, which I probably won't)
    6. Onboard surround sound
    7. e-sata
    8. (would be nice if room) Parallel (just in case someone has an old reliable cheap large-capacity ink cartridge printer)
    9. (last on the list, not needed, only for sentimental reasons, could care less) 1 serial (not 2!)
    10. (am I forgetting any other random port?)

    The insides would ideally have:
    1. minimum 1 x16, 2 x16s at most
    2. 1 pci, or 2 at most (if 2 position them by the gpu)
    3. 3-5 pci-xpress, ideally x4s or at least one or 2 x4s
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    Keep in mind here that the parallel port was introduced in 1970 and that RS-232 rev C came out in 1969 yet we have just seen them disappear from motherboards in the past few years. Using those as the basis of comparison, the PCI slot won't be going away any time soon.

    Motherboard manufacturers don't want to risk not selling their board because the user has some older devices laying around. I know that I expect there to be 1 PCI slot on any board I buy still simply because I have a couple PCI wireless cards laying around that I use in a pinch if I need to access wireless on my desktop for some reason. I also had a nice soundblaster that I would use instead of the onboard audio which was PCI, though that has gone the way of the dino as of my last rebuild.
  • djmephdjmeph Detroit Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    What about 64-bit PCI slots? I've got an Adaptec RAID card that uses one.
  • lordbeanlordbean Ontario, Canada
    edited December 2009
    djmeph wrote:
    What about 64-bit PCI slots? I've got an Adaptec RAID card that uses one.

    64-bit PCI isn't a topic I covered in my article. It's a niche product because you only see that type of PCI slot on server or multiprocessor motherboards, really. I was focusing more on the mainstream end-user hardware.
  • TimTim Southwest PA Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    quoting Drasnor - I tend to use PS/2 keyboards since having to figure out which USB keyboards can read more than three simultaneous keypresses is a PITA.

    Under what circumstances would you need a keyboard that can read 3 simultaneous keypresses or more? Aside from Ctrl-Alt-Delete, that is?
  • photodudephotodude Salt Lake, Utah Member
    edited December 2009
    Tim wrote:
    Under what circumstances would you need a keyboard that can read 3 simultaneous keypresses or more? Aside from Ctrl-Alt-Delete, that is?

    CAD and Photoshop for starters, as well as many other CAD/CAM and DCC programs have key commands that can be 4 key combinations.

    HotKeying is Hot :rockon:
  • RyderRyder Kalamazoo, Mi Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    Lots of games have 5, 6 simultaneous keys also.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    Ditto what they said, but it's worth noting that the Ctrl-Alt-Del equivalent for Linux is four keys.

    I'm oversimplifying things a bit though; most keyboards can read more than three keypresses simultaneously but the layout and number of switch matrix channels determines which keypresses can be discerned simultaneously. Certain manufacturers are better about this than others but it's not something that can be easily screened for without a keyboard being extensively reviewed or actually having it in front of me.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • ardichokeardichoke Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    The Ctrl-Alt-Del equivalent for Linux IS Ctrl-Alt-Del.... unless you're talking about the sys-req kill keys which are a step beyond C-A-D really.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    I am talking about the sys-req kill keys.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited December 2009
    Hey guys, why don't you open a riveting thread on Linux hot-key methods. :zombie:

    I'll grant you that Linux users should be heard too, but I highly doubt hardware purchasing habits of Linux users have any bearing whatsoever on manufacturers' implementation of PCI and PCI-e.
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