I think it's too soon for a new OS to come out. Beta it in 12, RTM in 13. 7 is good, 7 is what people want and need, 7 is enough for now.
I think Microsoft is trying to rush 8 out, and it'll be the next Vista. At least, not as good as 7. Too many new features means too many ways for people to mess it up.
And all this talk of "fast boot times" is meaningless if you leave your PC on all the time like I and millions of other people do.
Tim... by the time Win8 is released, it will have been 3 years since win7. Vista was a different beast than WinXP so it was totally different. Different kernel. Win8 is not that much different than win7 (kernel-wise). It's new curtains on the Window (pun). Win8 HAS TO BE RELEASED to fit in tablets and the new ARM architecture. If Microsoft waits 4 or 5 years between releases, it will be ancient and unable to run on the newest hardware.
As for the quick boot times... we, techies, are not normal. With the Eco-movement and cost of everything going up, we need to turn off our systems or allow them to genitally go to sleep/hibernate. Also, Microsoft needs to compete with the almost instant power of iPad and many Android devices.
There are no numbers yet, but it's pretty easy to deduce:
1) New version of DX means a revised, and likely more efficient driver model that will trickle down through older DX versions.
2) Windows 8 has a significantly smaller memory footprint than Windows 7.
3) Windows 8 has a very modular, lightweight kernel that will help keep the core of the OS nimble and out of the way of resource-heavy tasks like games.
I couldn't even begin to say what the performance spread is gonna be, but I'd count on w8 being better.
0
Straight_ManGeeky, in my own wayNaples, FLIcrontian
edited September 2011
YES, in those ways-- it is hypervisor implications that bother me-- like how much RAM the hypervisor will allow a game in one session to grab at once. If that preprogrammed limit is exceeded by software aggressively demanding more, the hypervisor is likely to shut it down suddenly and to the user it probably will just disappear if it ever appears -- same for any other RAM-hungry software(everything Adobe writes now tries to grab/reserve all free RAM (up to 8 GB for some, recent Photoshop supports editing RAW photos which are very large in size and probably even for RAW grabs enough to display the photo in an edit session and in an unedited state) AND some space in the virtual memory file on HD or SSD-- as an example).
We do not know how much that limit is yet, AFAIK. Therefore I and most others cannot safely even speculate as to what will run and what won't in re any software(including game programs) until Microsoft comes out with a software compatibility list including games-- if they do include games.
I don't think that the older games will run well, unless they are revised (especially older games that try for high quality graphics and enough complexity to get users playing them a lot which takes more RAM and CPU time as well as a newer video card that the game supports and a newer monitor of that responds fast). I don't think high quality graphics games for single users will run right for at least some of them. Some of them grab more RAM than would a modular game that loads one module/part of itself at a time because they are monolithic-- load all of themselves at once to offer faster play.
Dude, the hypervisor doesn't have anything--ANYTHING--to do with your operating system if you are not running a VM. If you are not virtualizing another OS while you're trying to play a game or run Photoshop, then the hypervisor doesn't mean squat. It isn't even running.
Nothing. Literally nothing. There is no "RAM limit". There doesn't need to be a "compatibility list." There doesn't need to be "speculation". There's no question about whether or not a game will run because it is or isn't "modular" (tip: they're all modular). Games don't have to be "revised."
Don't lie to people. It ain't cool.
I cannot believe you just invented everything you just said in your post. Unconscionably poor behavior.
Yeah, the hypervisor question is completely irrelevant for 90% of the user community.
The main reason I shut down at all anymore is for when I'm going to be out for extended periods (like my recent 2-week vacation). Otherwise, I run 100% of the time... On my desktop.
My laptop, however, shuts down and starts up several times every single day.
Faster shutdown/startup times, and better suspend/resume functionality is a huge win for portable devices like laptops and especially tablets.
That's my favorite part about the chromebooks. Regardless of whether it shuts down or suspends, the max amount of time I'm unproductive when I open it up is 30 seconds. And that's for a full boot from cold and logging in and actually connected. A resume takes just a few seconds, including connecting to the network.
0
Straight_ManGeeky, in my own wayNaples, FLIcrontian
edited September 2011
Hyperisors always are used for virtualization -- they are core virtualizing/session management tech by definition and handle only session management if really compact. They have to be always on whenever sessions are running, or sessions can run wild. All virtualization softwares have hypervisors in them, but that's where the idea came from rather than that the only use for them is OS in virtual sessions still.
Microsoft pioneered some or most of this tech on Server, and used it to isolate web to user sessions and multiiple SQL sessions from the OS of Server type rather than loading all of server or most of it in multiple copies in VMWare or some other VMM software (too much load on CPU and RAM and too complex) for limited sessions. They say it is Enterprise grade/level because it came from Enterprise Server tech. Their servers kept getting hacked/penetrated/DDOS'd and they had to have more servers to somewhat overcome the DDOSing. They needed other more compact software tech to let more people connect to each server at once also--cheaper to do that than buy huge amounts of high speed servers and put them all in an air-conditioned/cooled environment. Their enterprise customers were complaining about their server software crashing and going to UNIX 6 or RedHat Enterprise Server simply because their older servers had less RAM and that meant that VMWare+Server OS could only host a very limited number of Web sessions at once. UNIX 6 and Redhat Enterprise Server have own app and core module virtualization that is more compact than other ways of virtualizing. Microsoft wanted to have their own in-OS app or optional-module only session management to patent and copyright the tech for themselves (some of their patents on the core tech came from Server pioneering).
They figured out that keeping one OS core running and just sessioning what HAD to be sessioned in each virtual session would let them use minimum resources also. This meant they could offer Windows 8 for lower resourced devices, like thin tablets, Netbook grade things, smart phones, and older computers and servers that were built for large resource support and for Microsoft Windows or Microsoft Server.
They found it worked better for security also, because smaller running things like applications can be shut down while the OS remains up.
John, you tried to tell everyone that the hypervisor in Windows 8 will compromise the performance of the OS and the compatibility of the games.
None of that is true. It doesn't matter where the hypervisor came from, or why it was invented, or who made it, or what it does. You blatantly invented your entire post; you lied to people because you didn't know or didn't care to know what you were talking about.
But, as an added bonus, Microsoft did not pioneer the Hypervisor. You'd figure someone with "30 years of IT experience" (as you're so fond of reminding us) would know the idea has been around for more than 50 years, and was shipping in Sun/HP/IBM/VMWare products long before Microsoft even had the bright idea to include one of their own in Windows Server products.
Just so you know what I'm talking about, I'll quote the things you said that have nothing to do with a hypervisor, because you can't play games in the Windows VM:
like how much RAM the hypervisor will allow a game in one session to grab at once
the hypervisor is likely to shut it down suddenly and to the user it probably will just disappear if it ever appear
Therefore I and most others cannot safely even speculate as to what will run and what won't
I don't think that the older games will run well, unless they are revised
I don't think high quality graphics games for single users will run right for at least some of them.
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Straight_ManGeeky, in my own wayNaples, FLIcrontian
edited September 2011
Any software that will run moduarly is more likely to run in Windows 8(less RAM need), and anything that is also multithreaded also can use more modern hardware including more advanced and faster hardware as well and is more likely to run with new signed hardware, although CPUs have had signing support for a long time. This includes games.
0
Straight_ManGeeky, in my own wayNaples, FLIcrontian
For Thrax and Others: Wikipedia's take on Hyper-V(which WILL be in Windows 8 in some form)-- Hint: it's called Windows Server Virtualization technically.
Windows 8 includes a hypervisor, which is a little piece of software that manages virtual machines when they're running. A good hypervisor can leverage the virtualization hardware built into recent CPUs to make a VM run even better. Think of it as a big resource manager for virtual OSes.
Windows 8 includes the hypervisor from the server version of Windows, so users can take full advantage of hardware horsepower to help run a VM. This is a first for Microsoft, as the first version of Windows to have a hypervisor (Windows 7) only had a very rudimentary one for Windows XP Mode.
There are many potential applications for a server-grade hyperv, such as seamless application compatibility modes or great native VM support for devs and power users.
The key thing to know is that a hyperv, and the resources it takes to run a VM, are only utilized when a virtual machine is active. It is a cool, optional feature for users that want it, but it otherwise will have no impact on day-to-day use.
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Straight_ManGeeky, in my own wayNaples, FLIcrontian
edited September 2011
Of course hypervisors have been around for a long time, I simply did not include it because I was trying to keep it relevant somewhat to Windows 8 and to keep things briefer.
Thrax jumps to motivation conclusions from what is not said or what is not known. This is NOT good-- it looks like flaming.
I am not a gamer and most of my time in IT has been supporting and custom configuring stuff including Windows for productivity users or power users who both game and do productivity things(including fixing some things in the registry manually with Regedit.exe or in older Windows, Regedt32.exe or a third party registry editor sometimes). Since I like to give many different folks at least something new (old wannabe-teacher semi-instinctual need) and have it explained for many knowledge levels, my language is complex and my posts are long. If I leave out tech stuff including techese, some people don't understand it enough to understand how it interrellates or what the implications are given knowledge based on thinking about them a lot in the background as I write and from knowing what other things may relate. (To me, older is ten-fifteen years ago or more- to young folks that may be ancient.) Since I have no career at present because I am fully medically disabled, I help neighbors and mom only-- they are productivity users also.
Straight_ManGeeky, in my own wayNaples, FLIcrontian
edited September 2011
True, Mr. Cliff. I want what is known about Windows 8 revealed, with citations and suppementary knowledge linked to that fill in details meatilly so posts can be shorter and the database can be smaller(the admins like this).
For this post and others following, let's get back to and stay on thread topic-- I made a flame-war thread in general banter.
Hyper-V has a stand-alone virtualizing server to go with it now also-- has had since late 2008.
I will BET (due to sheer experience that Microsoft wanted and increasingly wants to write less and less of coding that they already have anywhere and merely tweak things or than those that support new features and GUIs)the Windows 8 installer will optionally install Hyper-V-- not install on low resource devices (which might have very limited ability or no ability to virtualize right at all), and install and use it running live all the time on higher resource devices. Since Microsoft does not want to write lots of individual subversions if they can avoid it, it makes sense to have the installer probe deeper while talking to BIOS or by querying firmware if no BIOS is disovered.
Deeper probing will also let Microsoft more install only the generic drivers needed. If manufacturers make devices non-standard to Microsoft's specs, the OEMs will still need to slipstream specific drivers into a custom install, so the installer needs to be written to look for specific drivers as well as generic ones when deciding what drivers to install also-- and the installer will be modular(of course) and only optionally run a multithreaded subversion of itself.
The problem with this part of the discussion is that the hypervisor is only relevant when a user is running a VM. In 99% of use cases, Hyper-V will never get used, if it even gets installed at all. I imagine it will likely be a "Turn Windows Features on or Off" option like Telnet, NFS, etc.
First of all, now we're perverting the word "hypervisor" this much? By your standards hey guess what? Windows 7 has a "hypervisor." It's called "XP Mode." Oh and by the way? So does everything from Windows 95 onward. It's called the "Hardware Abstraction Layer." Kind of a big deal, since HAL is what makes DirectX possible. Prior to HAL, you had to do things like make sure your favorite game supported your choice of sound card.
Secondly, anyone claiming to know anything about the Windows 8 "hypervisor" is wrong anyway. Microsoft has gone to a common code base with the Hyper-V system for post-7 systems. A system which is currently in major flux and a few weeks at most from a major, major update.
Third, people don't put "hypervisors" on "hypervisors" except in isolated lab conditions. For a reason. It's not sane, safe, intelligent, or supported. Period. Nested ESXi is cute to play with, but nobody does it in the real world for a reason. Not to mention that Windows 8 won't install Hyper-V since they're, oh, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PRODUCTS FOR COMPLETELY DIFFERENT USE CASES. Oh, and both operating systems in their own right independent of each other. That might have some bearing on it at as well.
But, you know, what do I know, right? It's not as though I've been doing virtualization for a living for the past 14 years.
0
KwitkoSheriff of Banning (Retired)By the thing near the stuffIcrontian
edited September 2011
Sorry, RootWyrm, Straight_Man knows better. 30 years general experience trumps specialized experience. It's not what you know, but how long you claim to know.
Maybe I can help from a programmer's perspective:
The short: Thrax is right
The slightly longer: HyperV is a set of classes that programmers access .. like referenced DLLs that a program uses.
This is analogous to DirectX and video games.
When you boot your computer, your memory is not being used by DirectX. However, if you load a DirectX game, it will call on DirectX classes and that will use memory once the game uses those classes. You close the game, all the memory is freed up.
The problem with this part of the discussion is that the hypervisor is only relevant when a user is running a VM. In 99% of use cases, Hyper-V will never get used, if it even gets installed at all. I imagine it will likely be a "Turn Windows Features on or Off" option like Telnet, NFS, etc.
UM, Microsoft is trying to build program code into the Hypervisor and its associated software that lets them not use third party VM software to provide session management and to be more compact within what they are trying to do with Hyper-V. They are trying to (as much as possible) isolate apps(especially malfing ones) from being able to impact OS for security and OS-only software subsystem integrity reasons.
If the Hyper-V hypervisor and surrounding code(a mini-VM set) only are controlling a session set. VMing does not do what VMs with hypervisors used to mostly only do any more-- so the user is blinded to the VM, and so are a lot of folks who think of the old way of using a VM session (guest OS or multiple OS sessions, that kind of VM level) think that this is the only true VM.
0
KwitkoSheriff of Banning (Retired)By the thing near the stuffIcrontian
edited September 2011
I malfed my urinary subsystem this morning in the shower.
Comments
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/08/delivering-fast-boot-times-in-windows-8.aspx
Where this link came from: The latest TechNet Flash enewsletter frrom Microsoft.
Typing in the root link ( http://blogs.msdn.com/ ) reveals all sorts of interesting stuff-- including a small downloads area.
I think Microsoft is trying to rush 8 out, and it'll be the next Vista. At least, not as good as 7. Too many new features means too many ways for people to mess it up.
And all this talk of "fast boot times" is meaningless if you leave your PC on all the time like I and millions of other people do.
As for the quick boot times... we, techies, are not normal. With the Eco-movement and cost of everything going up, we need to turn off our systems or allow them to genitally go to sleep/hibernate. Also, Microsoft needs to compete with the almost instant power of iPad and many Android devices.
awesome use of word, wrong or not
can has proof on the faster for gaming part?
1) New version of DX means a revised, and likely more efficient driver model that will trickle down through older DX versions.
2) Windows 8 has a significantly smaller memory footprint than Windows 7.
3) Windows 8 has a very modular, lightweight kernel that will help keep the core of the OS nimble and out of the way of resource-heavy tasks like games.
I couldn't even begin to say what the performance spread is gonna be, but I'd count on w8 being better.
We do not know how much that limit is yet, AFAIK. Therefore I and most others cannot safely even speculate as to what will run and what won't in re any software(including game programs) until Microsoft comes out with a software compatibility list including games-- if they do include games.
I don't think that the older games will run well, unless they are revised (especially older games that try for high quality graphics and enough complexity to get users playing them a lot which takes more RAM and CPU time as well as a newer video card that the game supports and a newer monitor of that responds fast). I don't think high quality graphics games for single users will run right for at least some of them. Some of them grab more RAM than would a modular game that loads one module/part of itself at a time because they are monolithic-- load all of themselves at once to offer faster play.
Nothing. Literally nothing. There is no "RAM limit". There doesn't need to be a "compatibility list." There doesn't need to be "speculation". There's no question about whether or not a game will run because it is or isn't "modular" (tip: they're all modular). Games don't have to be "revised."
Don't lie to people. It ain't cool.
I cannot believe you just invented everything you just said in your post. Unconscionably poor behavior.
The main reason I shut down at all anymore is for when I'm going to be out for extended periods (like my recent 2-week vacation). Otherwise, I run 100% of the time... On my desktop.
My laptop, however, shuts down and starts up several times every single day.
Faster shutdown/startup times, and better suspend/resume functionality is a huge win for portable devices like laptops and especially tablets.
That's my favorite part about the chromebooks. Regardless of whether it shuts down or suspends, the max amount of time I'm unproductive when I open it up is 30 seconds. And that's for a full boot from cold and logging in and actually connected. A resume takes just a few seconds, including connecting to the network.
Microsoft pioneered some or most of this tech on Server, and used it to isolate web to user sessions and multiiple SQL sessions from the OS of Server type rather than loading all of server or most of it in multiple copies in VMWare or some other VMM software (too much load on CPU and RAM and too complex) for limited sessions. They say it is Enterprise grade/level because it came from Enterprise Server tech. Their servers kept getting hacked/penetrated/DDOS'd and they had to have more servers to somewhat overcome the DDOSing. They needed other more compact software tech to let more people connect to each server at once also--cheaper to do that than buy huge amounts of high speed servers and put them all in an air-conditioned/cooled environment. Their enterprise customers were complaining about their server software crashing and going to UNIX 6 or RedHat Enterprise Server simply because their older servers had less RAM and that meant that VMWare+Server OS could only host a very limited number of Web sessions at once. UNIX 6 and Redhat Enterprise Server have own app and core module virtualization that is more compact than other ways of virtualizing. Microsoft wanted to have their own in-OS app or optional-module only session management to patent and copyright the tech for themselves (some of their patents on the core tech came from Server pioneering).
They figured out that keeping one OS core running and just sessioning what HAD to be sessioned in each virtual session would let them use minimum resources also. This meant they could offer Windows 8 for lower resourced devices, like thin tablets, Netbook grade things, smart phones, and older computers and servers that were built for large resource support and for Microsoft Windows or Microsoft Server.
They found it worked better for security also, because smaller running things like applications can be shut down while the OS remains up.
None of that is true. It doesn't matter where the hypervisor came from, or why it was invented, or who made it, or what it does. You blatantly invented your entire post; you lied to people because you didn't know or didn't care to know what you were talking about.
But, as an added bonus, Microsoft did not pioneer the Hypervisor. You'd figure someone with "30 years of IT experience" (as you're so fond of reminding us) would know the idea has been around for more than 50 years, and was shipping in Sun/HP/IBM/VMWare products long before Microsoft even had the bright idea to include one of their own in Windows Server products.
Just so you know what I'm talking about, I'll quote the things you said that have nothing to do with a hypervisor, because you can't play games in the Windows VM:
For Thrax and Others: Wikipedia's take on Hyper-V(which WILL be in Windows 8 in some form)-- Hint: it's called Windows Server Virtualization technically.
Windows 8 includes a hypervisor, which is a little piece of software that manages virtual machines when they're running. A good hypervisor can leverage the virtualization hardware built into recent CPUs to make a VM run even better. Think of it as a big resource manager for virtual OSes.
Windows 8 includes the hypervisor from the server version of Windows, so users can take full advantage of hardware horsepower to help run a VM. This is a first for Microsoft, as the first version of Windows to have a hypervisor (Windows 7) only had a very rudimentary one for Windows XP Mode.
There are many potential applications for a server-grade hyperv, such as seamless application compatibility modes or great native VM support for devs and power users.
The key thing to know is that a hyperv, and the resources it takes to run a VM, are only utilized when a virtual machine is active. It is a cool, optional feature for users that want it, but it otherwise will have no impact on day-to-day use.
Thrax jumps to motivation conclusions from what is not said or what is not known. This is NOT good-- it looks like flaming.
I am not a gamer and most of my time in IT has been supporting and custom configuring stuff including Windows for productivity users or power users who both game and do productivity things(including fixing some things in the registry manually with Regedit.exe or in older Windows, Regedt32.exe or a third party registry editor sometimes). Since I like to give many different folks at least something new (old wannabe-teacher semi-instinctual need) and have it explained for many knowledge levels, my language is complex and my posts are long. If I leave out tech stuff including techese, some people don't understand it enough to understand how it interrellates or what the implications are given knowledge based on thinking about them a lot in the background as I write and from knowing what other things may relate. (To me, older is ten-fifteen years ago or more- to young folks that may be ancient.) Since I have no career at present because I am fully medically disabled, I help neighbors and mom only-- they are productivity users also.
For this post and others following, let's get back to and stay on thread topic-- I made a flame-war thread in general banter.
Hyper-V has a stand-alone virtualizing server to go with it now also-- has had since late 2008.
I will BET (due to sheer experience that Microsoft wanted and increasingly wants to write less and less of coding that they already have anywhere and merely tweak things or than those that support new features and GUIs)the Windows 8 installer will optionally install Hyper-V-- not install on low resource devices (which might have very limited ability or no ability to virtualize right at all), and install and use it running live all the time on higher resource devices. Since Microsoft does not want to write lots of individual subversions if they can avoid it, it makes sense to have the installer probe deeper while talking to BIOS or by querying firmware if no BIOS is disovered.
Deeper probing will also let Microsoft more install only the generic drivers needed. If manufacturers make devices non-standard to Microsoft's specs, the OEMs will still need to slipstream specific drivers into a custom install, so the installer needs to be written to look for specific drivers as well as generic ones when deciding what drivers to install also-- and the installer will be modular(of course) and only optionally run a multithreaded subversion of itself.
First of all, now we're perverting the word "hypervisor" this much? By your standards hey guess what? Windows 7 has a "hypervisor." It's called "XP Mode." Oh and by the way? So does everything from Windows 95 onward. It's called the "Hardware Abstraction Layer." Kind of a big deal, since HAL is what makes DirectX possible. Prior to HAL, you had to do things like make sure your favorite game supported your choice of sound card.
Secondly, anyone claiming to know anything about the Windows 8 "hypervisor" is wrong anyway. Microsoft has gone to a common code base with the Hyper-V system for post-7 systems. A system which is currently in major flux and a few weeks at most from a major, major update.
Third, people don't put "hypervisors" on "hypervisors" except in isolated lab conditions. For a reason. It's not sane, safe, intelligent, or supported. Period. Nested ESXi is cute to play with, but nobody does it in the real world for a reason. Not to mention that Windows 8 won't install Hyper-V since they're, oh, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PRODUCTS FOR COMPLETELY DIFFERENT USE CASES. Oh, and both operating systems in their own right independent of each other. That might have some bearing on it at as well.
But, you know, what do I know, right? It's not as though I've been doing virtualization for a living for the past 14 years.
The short: Thrax is right
The slightly longer: HyperV is a set of classes that programmers access .. like referenced DLLs that a program uses.
This is analogous to DirectX and video games.
When you boot your computer, your memory is not being used by DirectX. However, if you load a DirectX game, it will call on DirectX classes and that will use memory once the game uses those classes. You close the game, all the memory is freed up.
Take it or leave it. You can learn more here:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa155227.aspx
Anyone tried booting the preview in VirtualBox? Mine tries to start, but just craps out before actually loading the installer.
Tried re-downloading the ISO, and that hasn't seemed to help at all.
UM, Microsoft is trying to build program code into the Hypervisor and its associated software that lets them not use third party VM software to provide session management and to be more compact within what they are trying to do with Hyper-V. They are trying to (as much as possible) isolate apps(especially malfing ones) from being able to impact OS for security and OS-only software subsystem integrity reasons.
If the Hyper-V hypervisor and surrounding code(a mini-VM set) only are controlling a session set. VMing does not do what VMs with hypervisors used to mostly only do any more-- so the user is blinded to the VM, and so are a lot of folks who think of the old way of using a VM session (guest OS or multiple OS sessions, that kind of VM level) think that this is the only true VM.