Wondering about raids---need mem refresh

yaggayagga Havn't you heard? ... New
edited May 2004 in Hardware
I have sense forgotten a little about raids and am wondering if there are any raids where you can plug 3 or more drives into it and have it act like a raid 0, just with even more speed.

Most motherboards limit you to only like raid 1 and 0, correct?

Comments

  • edited April 2004
    Most mobo's limit you to only 2 drives in a RAID 0 or RAID 1 config .. some of the newer mobo's do support RAID 0, 1 and 0+1 .. My Asus K8V Deluxe supports RAID 0, 1, and 0+1 with "Promise Controller" and just RAID 0 and RAID 1 with "VIA Controller" .. so does the new Asus socket 940 (AMD64 FX) mobo's like the SK8V and SK8N, and the Asus P4C800-E Deluxe (Pentium4) mobo supports RAID 0, 1, 0+1, and Multiple Raid with the "promise controller" and RAID 0 and RAID 1 with the "VIA controller".
  • yaggayagga Havn't you heard? ... New
    edited May 2004
    Okay, reading about the raid 5 in another thread...

    Is raid 1 going to perform better than raid 5? Or when and by how much? I thought that if you have 3 drives in raid 5 it would be like 2 in raid 0 with 1 backup like raid 1. Am I correct? I want the absolute best performance, but would like some security.
  • gtghmgtghm New
    edited May 2004
    yagga wrote:
    Okay, reading about the raid 5 in another thread...

    Is raid 1 going to perform better than raid 5? Or when and by how much? I thought that if you have 3 drives in raid 5 it would be like 2 in raid 0 with 1 backup like raid 1. Am I correct? I want the absolute best performance, but would like some security.


    Usually raid 5 is going to out preform raid 1. You are correct in the way raid 5 preforms... Don't forget that for best results use drives that are the same make and model and size.

    Also if you don't use drives of the same size the array will only be as big as the smallest drive. for example 30gb 60gb 80gb in raid 5 is going to be 30+30+30 for a tot of 90gb with 30gb and 50gb unused and unavailabe to be used on the other 2 drives.

    Also, JMO, after 3 years using both raid 0 and 1 I have come to the conclusion that raid is not worth the effort.

    Raid 0 while definately faster sucks when one of your drives craps out... Even if you back up your data going trough the RMA process takes weeks and your array could be down for days.

    Raid 1, great for redundancy but it is slow on the writes... It's really only good if you are backing up data that is not changed very much, as trying to use it for your OS and progys can cause laggs due to the extra time it takes to write data to both drives. I can see it for a server...

    Raid 5, great IF you have the money for 4 or 5 drives, you really don't see the speed increase in raid 5 until you get a 32/66 or 64/66 true raid card that does real actual raid 5 like the 3ware cards or the LSI's then you can see benifits but it cost too much for me to buy 4 or 5 drives.... Might try it with some 20gb'ers or something off ebay but can't forget the draw on the PSU... Most PSUs won't supply that kind of power and still have enough for the rest of the system...

    In short, they are fun to play with but all in all... you really, really don't need it...

    "g"
  • yaggayagga Havn't you heard? ... New
    edited May 2004
    so, there are different types of cards and types for the same raid? Fill me in...
  • gtghmgtghm New
    edited May 2004
    yagga wrote:
    so, there are different types of cards and types for the same raid? Fill me in...


    Not sure what your question is realy but I'll try and answer what I think your asking...

    There are several companies that manufacture both SCSI and IDE raid cards.

    Promise, Highpoint, 3ware, LSI are just a few.

    Some cards are limited in the types of raid that they can run and are not really true raid cards. They emulate a raid through software, kind of like the software raid that can be set up through XP Pro. There are cards that have on board RISK or other type of prcessors that do all of the data processing involved in the RAID, seperate from your CPU. The IDE is baised on the SCSI idea but is not exacly the same. The expensive cards come in either 32/66, 64/33 or 64/66... Unless you have 64/66 slots in your computer, which most reagular systems do not, you won't have any use for the 64bit cards...

    Most of the raid controlers on mother boards are a cheap version of what ever particular company has made a deal with the mob manufature like promise and highpoint for example. These usually are limited to raid 0 and raid 1 with a few boasting the ability to do raid 5 but because its software generated raid 5 will usually not show any performance increase over just regular drives not raided...

    At this point I really don't know what more I can add, there is a plethra of info on the web about raids which go form raid 0 to raid 50. Like I suggested if your just playing around that's all good, but for everyday use on the average machine its a waste of time and money... IMHO

    Hope this helps,
    "g"
  • yaggayagga Havn't you heard? ... New
    edited May 2004
    to basically simplify it up, I was wondering what I should definitely avoid if I were to get a raid card, I was looking for a card that can do raid 5 atleast, but beable to actually have a performance gain in it. I want to look for something that works well, not something that just gets the job done, otherwise I'd have virtually no point to raiding up. I was looking to raid up maybe 4 drives later on this year sometime to act like one big one.

    So... are most raid cards going to be the same in performance wise? Or do some give a cheaper "gets the job done" point of view? I like the best.
  • HawkHawk Fla Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    yagga, I've got a promise 100, 4 HD raid card if your interested. Also I have a scsi raid card that will carry a bunch of drives. Not sure how many right now. Just got back from road trip 1100+ miles each way. 18-19 hr drive, 1 1/2 day rest and back again! So the brain is not on full alert. If your interested in the scsi, I'll get the specs for you. PM me and I'll get back to you with all info,etc.
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited May 2004
    yagga wrote:
    Okay, reading about the raid 5 in another thread...

    Is raid 1 going to perform better than raid 5? Or when and by how much? I thought that if you have 3 drives in raid 5 it would be like 2 in raid 0 with 1 backup like raid 1. Am I correct? I want the absolute best performance, but would like some security.

    raid-5 will never outperform raid-0 or raid-1 with equal number of disks. Its the cheapest and sliowest way to get redundancy. The writes are usually horrid. As in.... a 4 or 5 drive setup is slower then a single 5 or 6 year old ide drive on the writes.

    I have not seen a non sata raid setup on a modern motherboard that also didnt support more then two drives in raid-0. You get two per channel just like normal pata raid.

    And as far as wondering what to avoid if you setup a raid-0 array??? Easy. Not backing up. You lose the entire array if any single drive fails. So keep anything important you can't afford to lose backed up.

    Tex
  • HawkHawk Fla Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    yagga, Here's the scsi raid I have--Elite 1600. 2 channel u160 scsi raid. onboard risc cpu and 128mb sdram cache. State of the art a couple years ago. New they ran about 1200 bucks with battery and cache. I'm not asking much for it, because I just don't have time to set up a scsi system, and it's been setting here on my desk for a few mnths now. They really need a 64bit slot to come close to showing their performance potential but will run in a 32bit. Tex is the guru on this type of setup and can show you some kick butt performance that he's done with his scsi raids. By the way Tex, How many drives can that run? I've forgotten.
  • yaggayagga Havn't you heard? ... New
    edited May 2004
    Okay, so raid 5 is bad for performance, that is what I understand.

    Now, is there some raid that adds performance like raid 0, but also can add a tad bit of security? I don't have the money or will to have raid 0+1, the best setup I am thinking about would have 1 drive backup security with all the others just adding together. so... 4 250gigabyte harddrives would give 750 and one could crash and stuff would still work good, that would be ideal, just somebackup, but mostly performance.
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited May 2004
    No. What you want is fast raid-5. And with a very top end ide controller (read 500 to maybe a grand alone) with a cpu and cache its acceptable but not real fast. IOt can't be by definition. Between every write it has to make reads to oother drives for the parity data so nothing written is ever sequential. Raid-5 is the cheapie way to get redundancy. Why do you think you need raid anyway? With ide raid its really not faster for a lot things. For anything with sequential reads and writes in raid-1, raid-0 or raid-10 it can significantly improve the transfer rate on some things tremendously.

    Raid-10 (0+1 or 1 + 0 is basicaly the same) is the best speed, performance etc... with redundancy. If you don't want to play that game make two seperate raid-0's and use one to back up the important data from one to but don't mirror it. You don't need to store mp3's and crap on raid anyway.

    I have big scsi raid-0 arrays with 5 to 8 disks on multiple dual cpu machines with 64/66 or pci-x slots but... I also back the servers up to each other or to big ide drives across a gigabit network. I have probably built and tuned more ide and scsi raid arrays both professionally and of my own in the last few years then most people will do in a lifetime. I buy and sell scsi disks and controllers as a side line of sorts. And the rule with raid-0 is you never store anything there you can't afford to lose. So back it up dude.

    Cheers

    Tex
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited May 2004
    Tex wrote:
    raid-5 will never outperform raid-0 or raid-1 with equal number of disks. Its the cheapest and sliowest way to get redundancy. The writes are usually horrid. As in.... a 4 or 5 drive setup is slower then a single 5 or 6 year old ide drive on the writes.

    I have not seen a non sata raid setup on a modern motherboard that also didnt support more then two drives in raid-0. You get two per channel just like normal pata raid.

    And as far as wondering what to avoid if you setup a raid-0 array??? Easy. Not backing up. You lose the entire array if any single drive fails. So keep anything important you can't afford to lose backed up.

    Tex

    Your limited more by how fast the drives are not how many per channel. With new state of the art drives you runout of bandwidth long before you run out of the ability to attach physical drives. You can physically attach probabvly just under 30 to that controller. But with the the fastest state of the art drives you want two per channel for a total of four. With fast but more reasoanbble priced drives figure three per channel or six total. If your bvuying older slower used drives you can cram a bunch on.

    Yes I can post tons on benchmarks from Elite 1600's or Enterprise 1600's either one. I have bought and sold maybe 30 in the last 24 months.

    Latest toy is the newer lsi 320-2x. It's cpu is tons faster and it can handle a gb of ddr cache onboard. Mine has 512mb of pc3200 ddr on it right now. The benchs from it are breathtaking to say the least. They will knock your socks off and fold them for you.

    Tex
  • yaggayagga Havn't you heard? ... New
    edited May 2004
    Well, I was thinking of maybe 4 good sized 7200 rpm hopefully serial drives hooked together for a fileserver. Any added performance I can get I'd take, even if it isn't too much, but if it is worse, then I don't want it. I don't need security too much, but it doesn't hurt to have some (without time consuming hard copy backups). Anyway, I also want the fileserver to appear as one large drive for simplicity reasons, but putting them in raid probably wouldn't hurt I thought, except if security is lossed, which is the whole reason I started this tread. I wanted speed, but not all out raid-0.
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited May 2004
    Four sata drives takes a dedicated controller. Two fast sata drives gets close to the max speed from a 32bit pci bus anyway so unless you have 64bit slots you can't use the speed. And you want one drive for simplicity but your killing yourself. You should have the page file and temp files and crap all on differant drives. Not partitons but drives.

    Tex
  • yaggayagga Havn't you heard? ... New
    edited May 2004
    Yeah, I actually meant 4 drives for the file sharing part, another el-cheapo drive for the os and stuff.

    So, are you saying that I shouldn't go this route then? What do you think the best route would be then? They are only 32bit as of now. All the other stuff I think has already been said somewhere.
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