Fragged/Defragged benches don't make sense...

entropyentropy Yah-Der-Hey (Wisconsin)
edited September 2004 in Hardware
So, after reading Guyute's thread on defragging, I figured I'd test something. The results were bizarre. Below is what my harddrive looked like before a defrag (I think the crap on the right is mostly music and such) and an ATTO bench. The bench, by the way, was the best I've EVER seen with this drive. In my second post (2 attachment limit kinda sucks) is after a defrag and a bench. Those scores are approximately average.
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Comments

  • entropyentropy Yah-Der-Hey (Wisconsin)
    edited September 2004
    After defrag. I don't get this. These should be, if not higher, then at least on par with the fragged drive... :banghead:
  • MedlockMedlock Miramar, Florida Member
    edited September 2004
    Interesting... Looks like the test only ran for 4 megs. Maybe it was fine before you defragged and then the test file got messed up in the defragmenting?? Increase the transfer size and total length a bit and see what happens. Just a guess though. :confused2

    EDIT
    BTW, where do you get that program?
  • csimoncsimon Acadiana Icrontian
    edited September 2004
    unbelievable! :scratch:

    maybe tex knows what's going on with that ...it's just illogical.
    Is that a RAID array or what?

    This is my drive partitioned to C:\ and D:\.
  • entropyentropy Yah-Der-Hey (Wisconsin)
    edited September 2004
    No, it's a single drive with 4 partitions, the main and biggest one (99 gig) is the one this was done on. Google ATTO and look for Atto express-pro tools i believe ... I'll search in a bit, when I'm done being lazy ;)

    //edit: Are reads usually that much slower than writes?

    http://www.attotech.com/software/files/eptscsi.exe
  • MedlockMedlock Miramar, Florida Member
    edited September 2004
    entropy wrote:
    Are reads usually that much slower than writes?
    I think so. They are for me at least. I thought reads were faster like just about everything else, especially memory.

    While I'm here I guess I'll post mine too hehe. Sorry I don't wanna crap up your thread.
  • entropyentropy Yah-Der-Hey (Wisconsin)
    edited September 2004
    Damn :eek2: How's your's so much faster than mine?
  • MedlockMedlock Miramar, Florida Member
    edited September 2004
    I dunno my HD isn't anything special really. 7200 rpm ata/133 8mb cache. No SATA here. It doesn't have any extra partitions on it though, maybe that's it.
  • entropyentropy Yah-Der-Hey (Wisconsin)
    edited September 2004
    Weird. And it isn't the partitions - my speeds have been like this since I built this... I've got another 120 gig coming in a few days, so I'll bench it ... might just move my OS and everything I have over to there and see what happens...
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited September 2004
    Your using a 4mb test size for the test. We all change it to 32mb but even that is way to small to see much change in defragging. I mean how hard is it to fit 4mb into a free space on a disk thats 80gb or more in size? Sandra uses every TINY piece of available space in its tests and the larger your amount of ram the bigger its test size. Its very very picky about defragging due to its disk usage.

    ATTO is maybe the worst disk test to reflect defragging as its so very small. I didn't spend any time looking at the differant tests after I saw the purpose of the thread so PM or email me if you want further input

    Tex
  • csimoncsimon Acadiana Icrontian
    edited September 2004
    I wanted to atto bench mine also but the download here at the site seems to be no good. Spinnnnnnnnnnnnner??? Hehe He's a good ole chap!

    http://www.short-media.com/download.php?dc=54




    EDIT by Admin


    Download fixed. :)
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited September 2004
    Seagate 120 GB SATA 8MB cache on SATA 0
    Gigabyte Socket 940 (K8NNSXP-940)
    FX-53 Processor
    after defragging

    NOTE: middle of the drive (it's partitioned) tests slower than C: at beginning...about a 7k difference.
  • entropyentropy Yah-Der-Hey (Wisconsin)
    edited September 2004
    Ah crapweasel. I must have a junky drive er something ... so when my new hard drive gets here in a few days, expect to see a thread on moving everything over :rolleyes:
  • MedlockMedlock Miramar, Florida Member
    edited September 2004
    sata 0?? Isn't that supposed to have superior performance and stuff? Not to trash your system or anything, mm, cause from what you posted looks like it could crap on mine, (and cause you're big admin guy) but unless I see more benches I think it may not even be worth the upgrade. :D

    Does that small read speed rate increase make that big a difference?

    EDIT
    Actually I'm sure there are better benchmarks out there that could better show the advanteges... Nevermind me! :D
  • entropyentropy Yah-Der-Hey (Wisconsin)
    edited September 2004
    NOPE! Sata is not any faster than IDE at the moment. None. At all. Unless your IDE drive is teh suck, sorta like my SATA, but anyway :p. Most are just bridged anyway. Sometime in the near future I believe, there will be much faster drives. But, when I built my computer I didn't know they were the same speed ... so no harm done, it really does clear up clutter. :)
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited September 2004
    TheGr81 wrote:
    sata 0?? Isn't that supposed to have superior performance and stuff? Not to trash your system or anything, mm, cause from what you posted looks like it could crap on mine, (and cause you're big admin guy) but unless I see more benches I think it may not even be worth the upgrade. :D

    Does that small read speed rate increase make that big a difference?

    Trash away...lol.

    The problem is that SATA isn't really SATA. It's most commonly a PATA drive with a SATA connector. Should be called SPATA.

    SATA indeed isn't faster...it's just a more convenient connection space wise at the moment. I remember my 40 GB drives PATA Maxtor usually clocked in around 42-44 K peak...but those were with 2 MB cache.

    Tex has a whole bunch of tweaks that I haven't applied or can remember but remember this is NON raid.

    But is this more wow for you? 2 x 10k 36 GB SCSI drives in RAID 0 on a 1600 Elite MegaRaid controller with 2 x 2800+ MP processors.

    It's a damn shame the Socket 940 board doesn't have 64-bit wide PCI slot....
  • entropyentropy Yah-Der-Hey (Wisconsin)
    edited September 2004
    :bawling: ¬_¬
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited September 2004
    Quit yer bawling Entropy. Wait till Tex waltzes in here with 200k and makes us all look like slugs.

    I have to admit that I do like the "feel" of RAID 0 drives over single. Dual Processors helps too but in the dragstrip of benchmarks...th FX-53 will beat my dual MPs.

    So I have both PCs running on a KVM and switch back and forth so neither get's lonely.

    :D
  • MedlockMedlock Miramar, Florida Member
    edited September 2004
    MediaMan wrote:
    But is this more wow for you? 2 x 10k 36 GB SCSI drives in RAID 0 on a 1600 Elite MegaRaid controller with 2 x 2800+ MP processors.
    Nice! :thumbsup:

    Great now I forgot what I came in here wanting to say. :-/

    I'll defraggle my motherdisk and post back tomorrow with new scores... :D
  • csimoncsimon Acadiana Icrontian
    edited September 2004
    raptor 74gb single drive
    nf7-sv2
    barton@2.4g/400 1.825v

    my sys temp went up 2 degrees while running this! :rarr:
  • MedlockMedlock Miramar, Florida Member
    edited September 2004
    Well my scores just went down the crapper. My write speeds increased but reads went down oer 10 megs. :banghead: I see what you mean, entropy, this doesn't make any sense.
  • MedlockMedlock Miramar, Florida Member
    edited September 2004
    And then increasing the total length to 32 megs like mm and csimon have been produces these scores.
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited September 2004
    your noit paying attention. You have to make the test length 32mb. Look at it this way. Your runninga 4mb test and your drive has a 2mb to 8mb CACHE ON IT. See the problem here? The 32mb scores look normal for a drive that pretty full. As I mentioned even at 32mb this is a very small test size and defragging rarely helps ATTO scores a great deal. Its not hard to get a 32mb section thats empty on a 80 to 160gb disk.

    Tex
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited September 2004
    What about the H2benchw file

    Linkage to main page here.

    I couldn't get it to run in the 2 minutes I played with it but StorageReview says it's much better at assessing hard drive speed.

    Whatya think Tex?


    PS: I think you should post an ATTO of your 200+k drives and put everyone to shame.


    ;D
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited September 2004
    storagereview poopoo's on every disk benchmark but some weird proprietary one you have to buy a license for that they use in their reviews and I think thats a crock. You need to test with publicaly available benchmarks and tests that readers can attempt to duplicate and compare to.

    There are good and bad points about every disk benchmark. ATTO is a quick and dirty look but only shows str. Which isnt the best indication for most desktop users of the performance as a whole. It doesnt begin to take into consideration disk latency and access times. The old winbench ones are still as relevant as anything we have IMO because they tested the whole disk subsystem including the windows cache. Which is also why I still have uses for Sandra though many poopoo on it. Most of their bitchs are because they don't understand what it's doing. Sandra uses a test size 1.5 times the size of your ram so varying the amount of ram you have in the system varies the test size and can alter the results. they also start at the very beginning of the disk and use every teeny weeny bit of free space which is why defragging for sandra is key. Even using DIFFERANT defraggers varies the sandra score if its a disk in use because they vary how much free disk space they leave at the front of the disk and thats where I-O is fastest. Thats why running sandra often tells you more about your real windows disk speed because it really shows your disk getting fragmented even hours after your original test if its a system disk and you can also test both with and without the windows cache. Most raid-0 users are aghast when they run sandra with and without the cache as they bench higher WITHOUT the cache. Which means their disk subsystem needs tweaked. In real life when you get away from benchmarks we always HAVE to use the windows disk cache. So running sandra without the cache is just a baseline number of what the disk/controller can do and you want the windows cache score to be at least 50 percent HIGHER. Or your just shooting yourself in the foot and paying to much attention to benchamrks at the expense of real life performance.

    Which is again why you have to take EVERY disk benchmark with a grain of salt IF you tune a disk subsystem as a whole. Because no benchmark can really show a score for A DISK SUBSYSTEM, as they compare single disks, so if you have more then one disk and its not in raid then no benchmark shows the results. To tune a disk subsystem you want to balance the I-O across multiple drives. And no disk bench shows the advantages of doing that. Which is why it still takes someone that knows what a disk subsytem including the windows cache is doing to really wring full benefits out of it. Its really not as hard as it sounds to get good performance though from multiple drives.

    Tex

    Here you go. Here is some benchs to play with. Look close at the average access time on the sandra bench. 2ms. You will never realize the differance that makes in real life compared to your ide/sata 6 to 9ms average access. few ide/sata controllers can shorten the access time like that no matter how many drives you had.

    Oh yeah... That ATTO ? Thats one scsi drive not a array. Which shows a weakness in the atto test on high end controlelrs as we obviously are not testing the disk now but rather the cpu/cache on the controller as the entire test fits in the 512mb ddr cache on the controller right? So if I wanted to play games with the sandra bench mark I would sticka small amount of system ram in forcing sandra to use a test size smaller then the 512mb cache on the controller. Benchmarks can be tweaked every which way if thats your intent. You need to test real systems loaded just like you use them evey day. With all the AV software and MBM and anything else you run in real life running. My lower right hand tray in Windows was jammed with a dozen running process's for both those benchmarks and I had a GB or ram in the box. Real life performance. thats what we are searching for
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited September 2004
    That's my boy!

    Everyone else: I told you Tex would post something astronomical!
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited September 2004
    csimon wrote:
    raptor 74gb single drive
    nf7-sv2
    barton@2.4g/400 1.825v

    my sys temp went up 2 degrees while running this! :rarr:

    but thats a awesome raptor score. The 2nd gen raptors are a good deal faster. My nice scsi's only hit 5,000 higher for atto. Nothing on that atto not to be tickled pink about. Congrats!

    tex
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited September 2004
    Indeed! I didn't realize there was that big of an improvement with the newer raptors. My 36GB raptors top out in the high 50's on a good day.
  • entropyentropy Yah-Der-Hey (Wisconsin)
    edited September 2004
    Tex: You, my friend, are a GOD! :p

    And you're definitely right (once again) with using different test sizes (for ATTO, even if it isn't entirely accurate). I used 4 mb and got around 130,000 on my new harddrive and using 32 got around 60. Now my question is this: Is my new harddrive (Samsumg 1213c i think...) faster than the one I'm currently on? I know it was benched totally empty, and my os drive was benched 80% full, but is there anyway I can know if it's worth trying to move everything over to it, in hopes of better performance (it's also quieter)? Sandra gave the new drive a 50 MB/s and ATTO gave it this:
  • csimoncsimon Acadiana Icrontian
    edited September 2004
    Tex wrote:
    but thats a awesome raptor score. The 2nd gen raptors are a good deal faster. My nice scsi's only hit 5,000 higher for atto. Nothing on that atto not to be tickled pink about. Congrats!

    tex

    Thanks Tex ...I realized the performance and quietness of this hd and decided not to go raid this time ...I just don't need it.
    Besides ...I honestly think that the raid array I originally had that I was booting too met its demise because I was in fact booting to it. Those quantums should have lasted way longer than only a year or two. I know I know I should have listened and done the soft array. :banghead:
    Anyway I am curious to see scores on RAID-0 with dual 2nd gen raptors. I think spinner and maybe leo have that setup. Just curious.
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited September 2004
    My suggestion is to not move everything over but try and balance the I-O betwen the two. make a pagefile on BOTH drives. XP will use the one with the least activity or even use both at once. You want your user files on one and the internet temp/temp etc.. on another. Your goal is to balance the disk I-O between the two and have them on seperate channels if you ca possibly can. You you want it loading a program from one and paging to another etc...

    Tex
    entropy wrote:
    Tex: You, my friend, are a GOD! :p

    And you're definitely right (once again) with using different test sizes (for ATTO, even if it isn't entirely accurate). I used 4 mb and got around 130,000 on my new harddrive and using 32 got around 60. Now my question is this: Is my new harddrive (Samsumg 1213c i think...) faster than the one I'm currently on? I know it was benched totally empty, and my os drive was benched 80% full, but is there anyway I can know if it's worth trying to move everything over to it, in hopes of better performance (it's also quieter)? Sandra gave the new drive a 50 MB/s and ATTO gave it this:
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