Networking Problem - Need ideas

TBonZTBonZ Ottawa, ON Icrontian
edited November 2004 in Science & Tech
I some ideas about a curious networking problem I encountered yesterday. Any suggestions no matter how insignifant are welcomed.

3 PC's on a home network with a highspeed broadband connection. Two are P4's and one is AMD XP and are all fairly current. I had 3 different routers to work with, two Linksys; BEFSR41 and a WRT54G. The other is a D-Link, can't remember the model but it's a 4 Port with a built-in Print Server.

2 boxes are running Win2K, both with SP4 installed. Both these computers are able to see the net and sign into the routers except for the D-Link, (without spending too much time finding out why), wasn't able to communicate with the router or the internet at all. With using both Linksys routers, sign-in to the router and net work perfectly all the time but are unable to see each other over the network. Only one box detects the other but can't establish a connection while the other box can only see itself.

I have:

- Run AVG 7.0, Spybot 1.3, Adaware SE, HiJackThis, WinSockFix & LspFix on all.
- I ensured the workgroup names matched.
- Uninstalled and reinstalled all networking protocols.
- Turned off all firewalls & uninstalled ZoneAlarm on one box.
- Cycled power on Cable modem, Router and both PC's simultaneously for a 2 minute time period and then powered up again.

The third box is a WinXP Pro. This one will not see any router and has no internet connection whatsoever. It resorts to a 169.XXX.XXX IP, (which I have seen many computers do when an IP cannot be resolved). I have also run most of the programs above but all seems as it should. I probably end up bringing that box home later this week to test on my network. I have seen this before with a box a few weeks back. Same thing, brought it home 2 different times, as soon as I popped my ethernet in, it resolved an IP and was fully functional on my network. As soon as I would take it back, nothing, same old thing. I ended up getting it to work after taking it back the second time but not without going through the same old motions, I have absolutely no idea what exactly triggered the box to suddenly see the network but it works and I haven't heard a thing from these people since. Maybe someone else has seen this too?

Cabling - The computers are too far apart for me to bring my own cabling but I have all but ruled it out as I tested the cable to the WinXP box with a laptop and it connects perfectly, the Win2K boxes communicate fine with both the router and internet.

I need ideas guys, I have to wrap this job up and I'm at a loss. Also, sorry about the length but I wanted to convey as much info as possible, hopefully I've left nothing out.

Comments

  • Park_7677Park_7677 Missouri Member
    edited November 2004
    Let me see if I can get my thoughts down so you can understand them ;) Hopefully I understand your problem correctly also...
    ...but are unable to see each other over the network. Only one box detects the other but can't establish a connection while the other box can only see itself.
    This is most likely because of Windows Network not resolving all the workstations through broadcasting (assuming you don't have a WINS server). To see what has been resolved with broadcasts, open Command Prompt and type nbtstat -r. It will output all the statistics of broadcast resolutions. If you don't know what I'm talking about with broadcasts and why this would effect being able to see computers in a workgroup, ask me to explain ;) Also, if a computer has been resolved (meaning you can see it) but there is a problem now (say NetBIOS name doesn't resolve to a correct IP), you won't be able to connect to it. Try using an IP address (instead of the NetBIOS name) and see if it will connect up.
    The third box is a WinXP Pro. This one will not see any router and has no internet connection whatsoever. It resorts to a 169.XXX.XXX IP
    The 169. IP is the "Automatic Private IP" Windows assigns to a NIC when it can't find a DHCP server and you have not supplied static settings. Check to see that your router is set to supply sufficient amount of DHCP IPs on your network. If that's not the problem, then XP can't find your DHCP server (using broadcasts). Try hooking the XP box straight to a router (with DHCP) alone.

    Post back with whatever you find out and I'll try to help from there. I feel like I'm just rambling now ;D
  • TBonZTBonZ Ottawa, ON Icrontian
    edited November 2004
    Park_7677 wrote:
    This is most likely because of Windows Network not resolving all the workstations through broadcasting (assuming you don't have a WINS server). To see what has been resolved with broadcasts, open Command Prompt and type nbtstat -r. It will output all the statistics of broadcast resolutions. If you don't know what I'm talking about with broadcasts and why this would effect being able to see computers in a workgroup, ask me to explain ;) Also, if a computer has been resolved (meaning you can see it) but there is a problem now (say NetBIOS name doesn't resolve to a correct IP), you won't be able to connect to it. Try using an IP address (instead of the NetBIOS name) and see if it will connect up.

    Yeah I understand Park, I will try that nbstat command, thx. I'll also investigate NetBios. So, I'll change the NetBios name to the default gateway IP address, am I getting this right?
    The 169. IP is the "Automatic Private IP" Windows assigns to a NIC when it can't find a DHCP server and you have not supplied static settings. Check to see that your router is set to supply sufficient amount of DHCP IPs on your network. If that's not the problem, then XP can't find your DHCP server (using broadcasts). Try hooking the XP box straight to a router (with DHCP) alone.

    Yes, the router is set to accept sufficient amount of DHCP IP's. You mean unplug the modem cable from the WAN port of the Router and just leave the router and computer connected?

    I'll try your suggestions Park, unfortunately it's not my network so I don't have access to it until later this week.

    Throw anything at me guys, I want to have all the angles covered before I can get back in to retry. :)

    TIA :)
  • TBonZTBonZ Ottawa, ON Icrontian
    edited November 2004
    Bump - Anything you guys can think of, I want to hear about it.
  • Park_7677Park_7677 Missouri Member
    edited November 2004
    TBonZ wrote:
    Yeah I understand Park, I will try that nbstat command, thx. I'll also investigate NetBios. So, I'll change the NetBios name to the default gateway IP address, am I getting this right?
    What I mean by replace the NetBIOS name with an IP while trying to establish a connection. For example: instead of '\\Computer-Name' enter '\\192.168.1.x' (the IP of the computer you're trying to connect to) inside a Windows Explorer window. This is just a testing method, to make sure that a connection is possible by skipping NetBIOS name resolution and going to IP addressing. It's the same concept of entering 198.64.189.142 into your browser instead of www.short-media.com. If it will connect via IP, then you've found that the problem with 'seeing' others in the workgroup and possibly the problem of failed connections has to do with resolution via broadcasting error.

    The sad thing is that there is no real 'solution' to these types of errors. The only thing to do is to make sure the network is healthy and let the computers stay on, building up lists of workgroups and workstations as broadcasts are sent out. Also, most routers will not forward broadcasts so if you have a network split into 2 segments connecting by routers, they will not be likely to "see" each other because their arrival announcements are dropped at the routers.
    TBonZ wrote:
    Yes, the router is set to accept sufficient amount of DHCP IP's. You mean unplug the modem cable from the WAN port of the Router and just leave the router and computer connected?
    What I'm thinking here is just have the DHCP Server (the router) directly connected to the XP box (DHCP client) without anything else on the network. This way you have the simplest network you can build that fulfills your wants (having DHCP). If you can get an IP from the router while they're alone, start to build onto that network how you want it, ex: add more workstations. If at any point something fails, then you have a better idea why it fails. Say you add another DHCP enabled router to the network, at which point the XP box will no longer refresh an IP you can infer that the problem is the XP box can not determine which DHCP Server to use and thus fails.

    Good luck :thumbsup: If you need me to explain something in a different way or clear it up, just let me know. I'll try to keep up with you as much as I can.

    -PaRK
  • TBonZTBonZ Ottawa, ON Icrontian
    edited November 2004
    Park_7677 wrote:
    What I mean by replace the NetBIOS name with an IP while trying to establish a connection. For example: instead of '\\Computer-Name' enter '\\192.168.1.x' (the IP of the computer you're trying to connect to) inside a Windows Explorer window. This is just a testing method, to make sure that a connection is possible by skipping NetBIOS name resolution and going to IP addressing. It's the same concept of entering 198.64.189.142 into your browser instead of www.short-media.com. If it will connect via IP, then you've found that the problem with 'seeing' others in the workgroup and possibly the problem of failed connections has to do with resolution via broadcasting error.

    I understand now thx. :)
    The sad thing is that there is no real 'solution' to these types of errors. The only thing to do is to make sure the network is healthy and let the computers stay on, building up lists of workgroups and workstations as broadcasts are sent out. Also, most routers will not forward broadcasts so if you have a network split into 2 segments connecting by routers, they will not be likely to "see" each other because their arrival announcements are dropped at the routers.

    Threre is only ever 1 router connected.
    What I'm thinking here is just have the DHCP Server (the router) directly connected to the XP box (DHCP client) without anything else on the network. This way you have the simplest network you can build that fulfills your wants (having DHCP). If you can get an IP from the router while they're alone, start to build onto that network how you want it, ex: add more workstations. If at any point something fails, then you have a better idea why it fails. Say you add another DHCP enabled router to the network, at which point the XP box will no longer refresh an IP you can infer that the problem is the XP box can not determine which DHCP Server to use and thus fails.

    Cool, I'll isolate the XP box first and get it connected before I add the Win2K boxes.
    Good luck :thumbsup: If you need me to explain something in a different way or clear it up, just let me know. I'll try to keep up with you as much as I can.

    -PaRK

    I got that loud and clear, thanks Park! :thumbsup:
  • TBonZTBonZ Ottawa, ON Icrontian
    edited November 2004
    Alright, I finally have been called to go back today and have another shot at fixing this network. My fingers are crossed Park.
  • TBonZTBonZ Ottawa, ON Icrontian
    edited November 2004
    Well, I managed to get the 2K boxens communicating. I really don't know what I did to make it work but, just going through "the motions" fixed it, no rhyme, no reason. :scratch:

    As for the XP box, took another crack at it, isolated it alone with the router and still no dice. Bring it home and plug it into my network and voila, it gets assigned and it's reading files off my machine and seeing the net. When I bring it back tomorrow, I will be armed with my router in case it resorts back to it's old ways.
  • TBonZTBonZ Ottawa, ON Icrontian
    edited November 2004
    Forgot to update this but the reason the XP box couldn't get assigned....a forked ethernet cable. The first day I went there, I said I wanted to bring one of the machines upstairs to test that cord and the owner said, "no, no, I already had a lappy connected to it and it works fine, it's definitely not that!". I say, "ok then, we shall proceed past this very important step in troubleshooting". So when I was last there and after the normal failed attempt at getting an IP assigned, I brought the XP computer downstairs and hooked it directly to the router and voila, it works. I say, "geez Paul, looks like it's the cord afterall, that will be $200 please".

    Morale of this story? Don't listen to the customer, if you have the suspicion, follow it through and rule it out on your own and save everybody the time, gas and frustration.
  • Park_7677Park_7677 Missouri Member
    edited November 2004
    Good job getting it fixed Terry :thumbsup:
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