Help! Primary hard drive not found

Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
edited April 2005 in Hardware
Hi all
New to this forum - but hope someone can help.
At bootup i get the error message:
Primary Hard drive not found 0
Secondary (or Primary? ... cant remember) Hard drive not found 1

Im running a Dell dimension 4550 with a 420w non-dell PSU (read another thread mentioning this as a problem??... hasnt seemed to be though).
And 2 IDE-SATA Hard Drives: (make that IDE ATA... not SATA) :p
Seagate 120GB (original)
Maxtor 10 200 GB (added)

The problem only occurred after installing the second hard drive.
The problem is easely 'bypassed' by simply turning off / on the machine. On the second boot everything is fine (every time)
Furthermore the problem only seems to occur when the machine has been powered off for a longer period (hours maybe). When restarting from windows (XP home) or shutting down and rebooting there is no problem.
It also seems to have gotten worse... at first it only happened once in a while - now it seems every time the computer has been powered off for some hours, it fails to boot the first time.

Does this not seem a bit strange??? :confused:

So far it has just been annoying, but im getting nervous that i might be damaging something permanently.

could it be a battery problem?
... PSU?
... or jumper settings?

Anyone with bright ideas?
Would really appreciate it.
Cheers :D

Comments

  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited April 2005
    Usually jumpers on the hard drives. Set them both to CS (cable select) and make sure the one you want as master is at the end of the cable.

    Or be very certain the end one is set to master and the one closest to the motherboard on the same cable is set to slave.

    Wait these are SATA drives? They should not need jumpers or anything then. One drive may not be spinning up fast enough to be recognized. Some bio's have options to wait for the drives to spin up. That computer probably won't. but check!

    The 12 volt rail on the PSU may not be strong enough to get both drives started fast enough. The biggest drain on the PSU is right when it powers all the stuff up the first time from a dead stop. Once the drives are started they pull less power so a bigger/stronger psu may solve the problem.

    tex
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Will try that (a bit in doubt about my jumper settings... my brother did them)
    But dont you think its strange that the 2nd boot works every time?

    Thanks for the reply :D
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    i might be mistaken on the SATA

    my old PSU (from Dell) was 190w and the new one is 420w and i have added no other components.
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited April 2005
    I changed the answer when I saw they were sata also
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited April 2005
    Sometimes even running the hard drives off seperate PSU leads will get you by. Not the best solution but it works a lot of the time.
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    where would i check if they are SATA? ... on second thought
    forget that... they DO have jumper settings so... :p
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited April 2005
    Ok so they are not sata? They use the big 40 pin cables and a seperate power cable from the psu? Are there two drives on one cable ( a dead give away)?

    Tex

    If so they are IDE not sata. See if you can power the two drives off seperate PSU leads for starters
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    I am 100% sure they are IDE drives... so if IDE cant be SATA... :D
    The SATA use 7-pin.. right??
    Mine use the big 40 pins i think (looks like the CD-rom drive cables)
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Anyway TEX thanks a bunch!!! :thumbsup: for the replys... seems the solution might be here... ill try tinkering with it a bit.
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Well i have moved the PSU leads (they were on the same one) so one is from the
    Floppy drive lead (i disabled the floppy drive), and the other has one for it self.

    The jumpers were set to cable select for the windows/master drive and
    the Maxtor (slave) was set to slave. (Can this cause problems?)

    Set them both to Cable Select.

    Unfortunately i will have to wait to see if it has worked... as i mentioned the problem
    is only there after a long power off.
    Eitherway at least i straightened up some mess.

    Thanx for the help :thumbsup: ... hope it works.
    Will check back tomorrow.
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    well sad to say it hasnt worked.
    so its something else then.... :scratch:
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited April 2005
    Uncle Sam,

    What you are saying is that "sometimes" your computer will not recognize the boot drive resulting in the "Primary Hard drive not found 0" error.

    1) Disconnect the secondary hard drive and see if the error persists. (Confirm if the PC is OK with just one hard drive attached. Try rebooting...shutting down completely...leaving for a few minutes...starting up from dead cold....just to confirm that all is well.)

    If all is well with one hard drive attached then

    Is the secondary hard drive attached to the same cable as the primary hard drive? The PRIMARY hard drive should be set to MASTER and a the end of the cable. The SECONDARY hard drive should be set to SLAVE (those jumpers on the hard drive itself) and in the middle of the cable.

    If the hard drives are on separate cables then both should be as MASTER and at the end of the cables.

    IF the secondary hard drive shares the same cable as another device, a CDRW or DVD, then make sure that the device at the end of the cable is set to MASTER and the one in the middle is set to SLAVE.

    2) BOOT up the computer. Hit DELETE key during post to go into BIOS and check to see that the BIOS has detected all hard drives and all optical drives.

    YES?

    continue to boot and see if the problem persists.

    NO?

    What drive is missing?

    If it's the secondary drive sharing the same cable as another drive try disconnecting the other device and setting the secondary drive to MASTER at the end of the cable by itself. (Providing the secondary hard drive doesn't share the same cable as the PRIMARY hard drive.)

    I do believe your computer only has two EIDE ports (places where you can connect cables to for hard drives and optical drives.

    If you are still having problems then try putting each drive on a separate cable without any other devices attached to those cables. Set both drives as MASTER and put them at the end of the cable.

    Does the problem persist?

    NO?

    connect your optical drive as SLAVE (those drives have jumpers too) and put on either line...I prefer the optical device to be on the NON primary line.

    See if that points you in the right direction. Sometimes cables have been known to fail too...and need replacing.

    Hope this helps.
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Thanx for the reply! MediaMan :thumbsup:
    Indeed my system has two IDE ports.
    The two hard drives on the primary port and two optical drives on the secondary.

    Would there be any advantage in switching to one hard drive and one optical on each
    port (since i have two opticals)?

    When the boot up fails it fails to detect both hard drives.... but detects the opticals.

    Will try setting the jumpers to MASTER/SLAVE (though my system manual said
    somewhere that the system uses CABLE select??... Dell :rolleyes: ).
    ... and disconnecting the secondary hard drive

    computers... they have a life of their own dont they? ... lol
  • profdlpprofdlp The Holy City Of Westlake, Ohio
    edited April 2005
    Try what MediaMan said first. His advice gives you the best chance of isolating the problem. If what he recommends in Step 2 doesn't help, see if the IDE channels are set to "Auto". If they are, check and see if there is a HDD Autodetect feature in your bios (possible under another name). It could be that the drive is not spinning up fast enough to be detected each time at boot. Doing so beforehand and hard-setting it in the bios might help you out.
    Uncle Sam wrote:
    ...The two hard drives on the primary port and two optical drives on the secondary.

    Would there be any advantage in switching to one hard drive and one optical on each port (since i have two opticals)?
    That would depend on what you use the computer for, and would entail a lengthy answer. (None of which addresses your immediate problem; I don't want to clog up your thread with all that until we get your problem solved.) For most home use situations, the way you have it setup now is fine.
    When the boot up fails it fails to detect both hard drives.... but detects the opticals.
    That sounds like the slow spin-up problem I described above. The drive doesn't get fully started by the time the bios goes to detect it. Try starting the computer, then hit the reset button before Windows starts to load. Hopefully this will allow the drives a few extra seconds to get up to speed. If this works, I believe you may have found your answer. In some bios's there is a setting like "Initial Delay For IDE". If you have such a setting and it's on "0" (seconds) try bumping it to "3" (or more).
    Will try setting the jumpers to MASTER/SLAVE (though my system manual said somewhere that the system uses CABLE select??...
    I'm old-fashioned and am still a little leery of using cable select. With all the combinations of MB's and HD's there is still a chance of mis-detection if you get two brands that don't want to play nice with each other. It's relatively rare these days, but it can happen. By setting the drive at the end of the cable to "Master" and the one in the middle to "Slave" you avoid any mis-identification problems.

    Good Luck! :)
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Thanx :thumbsup:
    Will give it a try
    Ill post back later...
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Well i have tried setting jumpers to slave/master... no luck.


    In BIOS
    IDE ports ARE set to 'auto' (this or OFF only options)

    I found an option in the BIOS: "Fast Boot" ON or OFF... was set to ON and i tried
    turning it OFF ... but to no effect. Has this something to do with the HDD Autodetect?

    Other IDE options:
    "Hard drive accoustic mode" (set to 'Bypass') ... Not likely relevant.. right?

    Under main 'option':
    Integrated Devices (LegacySelect) .... <ENTER>:

    "IDE Drive interface" AUTO/OFF (is set to AUTO)

    "IDE Drive UDMA" ON/OFF (set to ON) ... My drives should be UDMA compatible.

    I have yet to try disconnecting my secondary Hard Drive... and moving the drives to each of their own IDE port and cable.
    Problem is... i have to wait for the long power off, so diagnostics is becoming a lengthy process.

    Maybe i should try finding out exactly how long the power off has to be for the problem to occur :D .
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited April 2005
    profdlp wrote:
    That would depend on what you use the computer for, and would entail a lengthy answer. (None of which addresses your immediate problem; I don't want to clog up your thread with all that until we get your problem solved.) For most home use situations, the way you have it setup now is fine.


    I'll clog up the thread. ;D

    The best way to think of this is like a highway. Where is your traffic going to and what type of traffic is it. This is the layman's way of interpretting your needs. If you do a lot of hard drive to hard drive transfer of info..say you put your scratch, temporary, pagefiles on one hard drive and your programs/os on another...then you would want to keep them on separate "roads" (ide ports)

    Same for video editing....programs/os on one hard drive and the video files on another.

    BUT...if you do a LOT of cd burning...then you may want to keep the burner(s) on separate IDE ports from the hard drive. That way the hard drive has its own "road" for traffic...and same with the burner(s).



    Anyway...onto your problem...

    Fast boot can be left to on. Acoustic settings merely make your hard drive seem like it runs quieter. You can try the SAFE DEFAULTS setting in the BIOS but what you've posted appears correct.

    The power off duration is the time taken for the system to totally discharge all power from capacitors, etc...this can take several hours. Capacitors have been known to hold some amount of power for a good long time.

    Another thought is a BIOS update but I would probaby try the drives on separate channels first and set them both as MASTER....then both as Cable Select if the problem persists.
  • profdlpprofdlp The Holy City Of Westlake, Ohio
    edited April 2005
    MediaMan wrote:
    I'll clog up the thread. ;D ...
    That was a lot more succinct than what I had started to write before. It made more sense, too. :vimp:
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    MediaMan
    Thanks for the clarifying on IDE ports... clogging or no clogging ;D

    I just tried disconnecting the secondary hard drive.

    I think this worked as far as it detected the primary drive first off.
    However it still said:
    Primary Hard Drive 1 not found (BIOS still set to AUTO)

    Does it have to be set to OFF, for it not to search for the drive?
    (Thought the AUTO would mean... well 'auto' :D )

    Is there no way of discharging the capacitators?... would speed up this diagnostic
    process.

    Flashing the BIOS... yes thought about that too, but isnt this a bit of a risky buisness?
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited April 2005
    Step 1:

    Just for the fun of it. Unplug the computer and clear the CMOS. Refer to your manual where the CMOS jumper is. It's a small plastic jumper that stradles two pins with a third exposed. The manual should say something like PIN 1 and 2 covered...default. Pin 2 and 3 covered...clear CMOS.

    Some motherboards just have two pins naked...bridging the two clears the CMOS.

    Clear the CMOS and leave the jumper in the cleared position for at least a minute.

    2) Keep the primary hard drive as MASTER on IDE one. Put the secondary hard drive on IDE 2 as Cable Select. (you may even try both as Cable Select)


    3) Move the jumper back to the default operation setting (normal) and reboot. Hit the DEL key during the post screen to get into bios and reset the clock and check to see if all your IDE ports are as you saw them...on AUTO.


    See if the problem persists.



    If it doesn't...connect up one optical drive as slave on one IDE cable...and the same with the other.




    FLASHING BIOS.


    Here is your BIOS

    http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/format.aspx?releaseid=R67246&c=us&l=en&s=gen&cs=

    from the DELL site:

    This file contains a compressed (or zipped) set of files. Download the file to a folder on your hard drive, and then run (double-click) it to unzip the set of files. Follow the instructions to create a set of floppy diskettes, and then use the diskettes to complete the installation.


    The instructions on the disk will have you create a bootable floppy with the files on it. Reboot the computer and the diskette should boot first and flash the bios for you. Remember that flashing BIOS is at your own risk. I have done many BIOS flashes over the years. It can seem "scary" at first but that passes in a few seconds.

    Remember that you will most likely have to go back into BIOS to reset the clock after the flash.

    If that's an older computer (+2 years) it may not have a BIOS that recognizes larger drives properly.


    LASTLY:

    If that OS installation is a year or two old then some drivers may have gotten "confused". Remedy: reinstall the motherboard drivers but I usually wipe the slate clean and reinstall the OS and all the proper motherboard drivers. I'm harsh that way. Get all the drivers from DELL first before you wipe the computer and ALWAYS back up the data you want to keep before you wipe the drives. Burn all the drivers to a CD and any other drivers for sound cards, video cards etc.


    You can refer to our OS INSTALLATION GUIDE FOR 2005 for a ton of tips and tricks.

    You can also, BEFORE, you wipe the drives create a slipstreamed installation disc with all the latest service packs too.

    Slipstream Windows Easy.


    Remember...wiping the drives and starting from a clean slate is a last resort but, since I always back up my data, mp3s, etc...a couple of hours to reset things up is no problem for me. I do it every 3 or 4 days on my test systems...and I just finished re-doing my main work system...again. :)
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited April 2005
    You said you disconected the secondary drive and it worked (????) but your message says it can't find the primary harddrive?

    Auto means search for the drive. You now only have a primary and its not found correct?

    Then your primary drive is failing if its jumpered correctly and on the end of the cable etc...

    If the primary worked before and you didnt muck around with jumpers or where its plugged in it's failing.

    It needs to be CS (cable select) or master and on the END connector on the cable.

    Tex
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Tex

    I guess i just mixed up the words a bit.

    It failed to find MY 'secondary' drive (non-windows).

    However the error message reads:
    Primary hard drive 1 not found (which i call my secondary)

    ... but since i disconnected this drive its not so strange it couldnt find it... was just
    surprised it looked for it. :D
  • profdlpprofdlp The Holy City Of Westlake, Ohio
    edited April 2005
    Uncle Sam wrote:
    ... but since i disconnected this drive its not so strange it couldnt find it... was just surprised it looked for it. :D
    That's probably just the way the bios lets you know that something has changed. For instance, if you have two sticks of memory and remove one, you'll usually get a warning about the memory difference.

    If the drive was still connected and you got the warning it would be a sign of a failing drive.
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited April 2005
    Sounds like the cable to me, also, because the system picks it up on the second try, it is likely a spin up time issue, that is the drives fault, not yours. If it is picking up both optical drives, try switching the cables, if it gets both HDDs and only one or no OPT drives, then your problem is the IDE cable. Otherwise, you may just be relegated to rebooting to get everything to work. Dude, shouldn't have gotten a Dell... ;)
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Took a deep breath and...

    Just flashed the BIOS... from A03 to A08 (big step huh? ;D )

    ... no sweat - there was even an automated .exe windows installer from the dell site. Ran it directly in windows and the system just rebooted and the BIOS was updated...
    .. No floppys or nothing... very easy. :thumbsup:

    Thanx for the link MediaMan
    ... where did you find it? I tried to locate it myself on my own Danish (european) Dell
    support site... and couldnt get past step 1 (selcting FlashBIOS update)... Maybe its a US thing... seems strange though. Why shouldnt it be distibuted on European support sites aswell. :scratch:
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Tell me about Dell! :rant: ... Just figured that out a bit too late! :bawling:
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited April 2005
    Any luck? I can only assume that since you are posting that you are using it for now. Do you have all the windows updates, that can keep you PC from recognizing large drives, although I think they will just be recognized at lower sizes... Anyway, post back after you run your diagnostics.

    Good Luck!!!
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Justin :thumbsup:

    This is proving hard work.
    Would windows SP2 do a difference? (i only have SP1... have been reluctant to go for
    SP2)
    Anyway the 200 GB drive is partitioned in roughly two halves. (maybe this has no
    effect on drive size in regards to recognition?)

    MediaMan
    Tried clearing CMOS from BIOS - with NumLock, Caps Lock, Scroll Lock + Alt-E it gave
    off a beep as if it worked (and Alt-B resulted in a Reboot).
    Can it be done this way? ... or does it have to be done by jumper?
    Ofcourse i still have to arrange the drives on different IDE ports at the same time - as you wrote.
  • Uncle-SamUncle-Sam Copenhagen, Denmark
    edited April 2005
    Excuse for being dense ;D
    How do i reinstall or update my motherboard drivers?

    I found:
    THIS [url]

    (Chip Set: Intel Chipset Software Installation Utility, Driver, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Multi Language, Multi System, v.4.04.1007, A11)

    Is that it?

    Have run the install... but cant see any changes in driver vers. numbers.[/url]
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