Taking the Plunge "Water Cooling"

Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
edited January 2006 in Hardware
Well I have been breaking, fixing, modding, and plain out building computers for a long time now. I like to think I am pretty good at it, as most of my builds are very clean looking, and I have had a 95% non-failure rate out of 187 builds. But in all thos ebuilds I have never once touched water cooling! hence why I start this thread. I would like ot get into the water age and see what I can do. I figure the best way is to jump in haed first and buy an entire WC kit and give it a go.

So I need to know what to get.....

All for a 939 socket set most likely my A64 3800+ or my 3700+ systems will be my test systems...

1.) Brand / Model # of the best of the best WC kits... Links help
2.) Info on Installing the Kit

I don;t want to have to buy a new case becuase of adding this feature.. so kee in mind it will be installed in a ATX case that has some room to spare... I even like the idea of top mount coolers.
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Comments

  • madmatmadmat
    edited January 2006
    The Swiftech Apex kits are good for the money, it's everything you need to cool a CPU and has the cooling potential to allow for GPU blocks for an SLI setup along with the CPU.
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    Thx Madmat do you have any links to sites that sell it... i just want to see images.. and how adaptable is it to a ATX caselike a P180?
  • madmatmadmat
    edited January 2006
    This is the Ultra with the Apogee... http://www.jab-tech.com/product.php?productid=3198
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    Would you say this is the best kit on the market? and would I have to buy any other parts to go with it? or does it come with everything but the liquid!

    what type of performance increase should I see? if any?
  • madmatmadmat
    edited January 2006
    It's one of the best performing kits on the market to date and it's complete including fluid...you only need to add GPU blocks like I said before.

    You won't see a major drop in idle temps but you will see very good improvement on load temps versus air. This is on the CPU, the GPU should you decide to cool it will see great improvements in both idle and load temps.
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    I am just so affriad to do it myself1 I mean I trust I can do it! but I dont feel like crapping on a $1000 worth of hardware... How easy are they to install? i guess the water blocks are what I'm affraid of... I guess I just don't understand how they fit over the CPU and not leak everywhere!
  • GargGarg Purveyor of Lincoln Nightmares Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    I've got faith in you. I'm sure you know as much or more than I do about working inside a case, and if I can Vodka Cool IC_11, then you should have any problems with a comprehensive kit :thumbsup:
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    That is awesome! I just want to know how the CPU is cooled.. im guessing by a o-ring or something to keep it from leaking! I guess it is just hard to jump to water cooling without knowing anything about it.
  • madmatmadmat
    edited January 2006
    the waterblock is a sealed unit, the only place you have to worry about leaks is at the barbs where the tubing goes on and if you clamp it correctly it won't leak there.

    As to toasting your rig, this is why you leak test for a minimum of 24 hours before firing the PC up, you never just install, fill and hope to god it won't leak.

    Also the fluid with that kit is supposedly non-conductive so there's that bit of comfort.

    The installation is a bit involved, you have to place everything "dry" meaning withough thermal grease, get the tubing length needed for each run figured out, (measure twice, cut once) then pull the blocks loose, fit the tubing and pull your parts out. After that you fill, bleed and refill until the air's out of the loop. Then you fire up the PSU since that pump is 12V you'll need to jumper it and let it run for a leak test for a minimum of 24 hours. After that's over you remount the mobo, mount the GPU block for keeps with thermal paste then mount the CPU block for keeps and fire it off.

    Yes, it's complex but it's not really that bad.
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    wow Im an idiot.... for some reason I was thinking the water was actually touching the CpU's heat cap... lol I feel dumb now... so it is just cooling the metal that is the block. and there is still thermal paste on the CPU... that is what I was worried about! But I think my fears are resolved!
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    So if i do get the GPU blocks I just need some extra tubing and grease?
    "I can't believe I am doing this" I about to order the entire kit :)
  • madmatmadmat
    edited January 2006
    You actually should be set as to tubing, I believe the kit comes with more than enough to just plumb in the GPU block(s). Bear in mind that this kit has 7/16" tubing and 1/2" barbs, to sneak it up on the barbs you'll have to heat the tubing up by dunking the end in a cup of near-boiling water for a few seconds.

    Make sure that your GPU blocks also feature 1/2" barbs or you're looking at further dificulty. I strongly suggest using the Danger Den Acetal Maze 4 GPU block(s) as they're very good and pretty non-restrictive.
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    MCW55.gif

    I was thinking the Swiftech MCW55
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    directron_1877_89522625
    I like the look of the Danger Den GPU Blocks but the mounting brackets are huge!

    acetalmaze4gpu03.jpg
    acetalmaze4gpu02.jpg

    Also I can never find a place that sells those cool little memory coolers like the image above! anyoine know where I can find those "my vendor doesn't carry them...."
  • csimoncsimon Acadiana Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    Why not wait on the gpu blocks until you get used to the kit? All of the tubing for you first try can be a bit overwhelming. You can always add it later ...just a thought.

    Basically the whole kit will be an enclosed loop so water just travels round and round like pump>wb>res>rad>pump or whatever order you place things. The pump forces water through the loop. As it reaches the wb it is conducting the heat from the copper block. It continues now heated and is then removed from the water as it travels throught the rad. The fan will be blowing thru the fins to remove the heat from the water as it travels.

    It's basically that simple. I prefer to call it removing heat because the water in this type of system does not get cooler than ambient ...once the water is heated then yes it's being cooled.
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    Any thoughts on Thermatakes Water cooling systems?
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited January 2006
    Sledgehammer70 wrote:
    Any thoughts on Thermatakes Water cooling systems?

    Definitely stay away from the thermaltake kits. Unless they have something new that I don't know about, the 'bigwater' kits are sometimes worse than high-end air cooling.
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    Good to know! is there any other brands out there that make some nice setups? I ask only becuase i don't want to buy what I think is the best one... I want to get an idea of what they all offer! ... what about zalmans fanless Water cooler
  • scottscott Medina, Ohio Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    Hey Sledge

    I am sure you can find the ram heatsinks here FrozenCPU Plus lots of other cool stuff !! I have given those folks a lot of dough. :)

    My first advice on watercooling is do a lot of reading before jumping in. The above suggestions are very solid, but the more you know.....

    Check out Pro Cooling Forums There is a lot of good info there , read some of the stickys. I am sure some of the other guys will have some sites to check out as well.

    It is a bit daunting at first but is really very straight forward. A slow methodical approach is best. Take the time to do it right the first time.

    Here is a shot of my Mobile barton rig 2500+ @ 2500mhz 24/7 folding 100% load it runs at 39 C in a 78 degree room with a waterblock I made in my shop.


    Scott
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    Nice thanks for the tips!
  • madmatmadmat
    edited January 2006
    That big, thick bracket on the D.D. blocks helps stop the card from flexing from the pressure of the block. Trust me on this, it's very good at it but you can easily mod in the factory X shaped metal bracket instead.
  • rykoryko new york
    edited January 2006
    i think frozencpu.com is really good for h20 kits...

    i really like the swiftech w/ apogee mentioned earlier that you can find here...

    http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-wat-79.html

    nice basic kit for cpu only and a good beginners kit. make sure you have a spot in your case for a 120mm fan for easy mounting.

    if you want to go the whole nine yards, try a kit like this from asetek with cpu, gpu, and chipset blocks and a bigger dual 120mm radiator.

    http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-wat-62.html

    however like mentioned before, you can always add gpu or chipset blocks later, so it might be wise to just get a basic cpu cooling kit and then worry about gpu blocks later when you feel more comfortable with water cooling...

    here's an asetek kit for cpu only that would allow for more expansion later...

    http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-wat-44.html

    really you can't go wrong with any of the quality kits from frozencpu.com. stay away from coolermaster, thermaltake, and other cheaper kits. if it is under $150-200 bucks it will probably perform worse than high end air cooling.
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    So in all honesty if I go with a $300 kit how much cooler temps will I get out of my hardware? and is it worth it?

    Seems like allot of cash to keep a cpu cooler. Sure it will yield better results but give me a basic percentage based on if I went with the http://www.jab-tech.com/product.php?productid=3198

    or the

    http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-wat-62.html
  • madmatmadmat
    edited January 2006
    Honestly, the Asetek kit will yield lower performance than the Swiftech. The Asetek blocks just aren't as good and the pump is under powered.
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    I am leaning towards Swiftech I have almost hit purchase 4 times :)
  • TheLostSwedeTheLostSwede Trondheim, Norway Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    One thing to consider is also that even the best waterloop out there doesn't get more than 10c better load temps than for example , Big typhoon with high wattage load and the same amount of noise. To get better temps, the radiator needs to be in a spot where it can use colder than ambient temperatures.

    With a lot of heat in a case and long load times, the coolant (the water), will reach temperatures that is the same in the case which means that at one point, watercooling can only take you that far and the Delta between the best heatsink and the best Waterloop with equal noise, only differs by the physical thermal transfer ability water have over air and the warmer it gets, the less the different gets. The FX-60 for example, is rated to put out up to 110W (at least when i looked at the specs the other day) and give that cpu 1.55 vcore for some overclocking action, you'll easily have 150W to cool off. Add another 100W from the GPU and i estimate, 15W from the pump, and you have a lot of heat to remove. Watercooling isn't used as an overclocking tool anymore cause it really doesn't help as much as it used to do. It can help in noise removal, but all that wattage to be removed by one or two 120mm fans on a radiator, will get you a hot cpu in the end.

    However, doing the opposite, run a single core Opteron downclocked and with less voltage than stock, lets say 1.2 volts at 2ghz can really pay off. You can run that with passive water if you like. The water and case temperature might reach 40c or so and with the transfer ability of water, you'll have a passively cooled Opteron at what i would estimate, 55-60 c loaded temps.

    This is what i have been testing myself. Others may have different thoughts on this.
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    Well my case temps usually never peak 28c my mobo temps at 32c and current CPU temps are at 33c - 37c... I should say this is when my office is 75 degress. now if I did an external mount on the radiator would that inturn yield better results than an internal mount? im guessing so as the heat would wide up outside the box and not inside.

    So In my case if wanting to go water cooling would it benfit me to set it up this way? or should I be happy with my low temps from just a Fan? or is there another option in liquid cooling?
  • rykoryko new york
    edited January 2006
    i can't really give you a number b/c it depends on your specs and how big of an oc you plan and how much vcore you will be pumping though your cpu. also stuff like ambient room temp and case fan speed will affect things to just name a few. look for reviews on each different kit will be your best bet.

    since it's your first dive into h20 cooling i would keep it simple and go with the swiftech cpu only kit for $200. everything in that kit is high quality so you don't have to worry.

    you could always replace the stock 120mm fan with a higher cfm one to eek out a little extra performance. however h20 cooling quickly becomes a comprimise between near silent cooling and performance so it really depends on how you set it up. i mean you could throw some 115+cfm screamers on your rad and watch your temps drop, but you pc will sound like a jet train. IMO, it's best to go with a high cfm/low db fan to keep things quiet. i'll trade a few degrees for peace and quiet anyday, but you may want the lowest possible temp for an insane oc or something....
  • Sledgehammer70Sledgehammer70 California Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    Noise isn't an issue as my office is already a freaking data center! and my 7.1 surround would be able to over power any sounds of annoyance :) so going a louder but more efficient fan isn't a problem!
  • TheLostSwedeTheLostSwede Trondheim, Norway Icrontian
    edited January 2006
    An external radiator is definitely better but it's also a bit more hassle. For example, you can route the tubing so that you can have the radiator near a window (depending on how hot you have it outside off course) which would help.

    I did a test the other day and had the radiator outside the window when we had -15c where i live. The temperatures almost dropped to below case temperature immediatly. Now, that's not a good thing either cause then you will get condensation instead.

    Edit//Removed a word. And FWIW, if you have 35C loaded temps on air overclocked, you're not gonna see much of an improvement with any normal watercooling rig. You might get away with a more silent system instead.
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