pump too powerful?

tmh88

Im going to make a watercooling system for my cpu (amd 64 3200+, and possibly a gpu block for my ati x800XL), and I need your advice on something. I was at homedepot today, and there was one that moves at most 314 gallons per hour that uses 5/8" tubing and I didnt know if that was too powerful. I know the more water it can move, the better, but I don't know if it will create too much pressure and stress on the blocks, and tubing. Its not a submersible, so I was just planning on setting on the bottom of my case, and getting one of those drive bay reservoirs

I was planning on just plugging it into an outlet on the wall instead of my psu, because mines only 350 watts (and its not molex ). heres a link to it please let me know what you guys think. Its only $50 and moves alot of water which is why im considering it.

edit- the link directs you to just the garden area. On the left click watergardens, and then pumps. iIt is the beckett large fountain pump, model number 7061310, and is in purple packaging.



http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1487942491.1142801390@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdhaddhfkjfljdcgelceffdfgidgin.0&CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=misc/searchResults.jsp&MID=9876&N=2984+5426&pos=n19

lemonlime

Wow, that looks like a beastly pump. My dangerden D4 is 350LPH.. considering how powerful that D4 is, I cant imagine what this thing does

To take advantage of it, you'll need high pressure blocks (like a storm or whitewater).. Just be very careful of seals and hose quality, because with a pump that powerful, you'll need very sturdy hardware.

You'll have a hard time finding blocks/components that accept 5/8" tubing.. my Dangerden D4 is 5/8", and I stretched 1/2" clearflex over the outlets, and it was much easier than having to find adapters etc to use 5/8" tubing too.

Sounds like a cool project you have in mind tmh, any more details on the setup?

tmh88

I was thinking about this reservoir http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-res-80.html . It says that its meant for high flow, and can fit wither 1/2" or 3/8". Only $15 too.

http://www.xoxide.com/danger-den-tdx-a64-38.html This dangerden cpu block seems to be very sturdy and is pressure tested up to 85psi.


http://www.xoxide.com/dd-black-ice-xtremeii-38.html and this massive 240mm radiator.

Also since that pump is so damn powerful, I was gonna stick in a tranny oil cooler that I found in my garage with 3/4" connection, but I found some adapters to get it to 5/8". I'll probably paint it black to match my case, and make a little frame for it and put some fans on it, and have it sitting on the top of my case. It resembles this one, but its not as wide http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/16000-GVW-Automatic-Transmission-Tranny-Oil-Cooler-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33727QQitemZ8047780005QQrdZ1


I also noticed that the pump has an adjustable flow control so I dont necessarily have to set it blasting water through the system.

One more thing, whats the point of having 3 connections on the waterblock? Where does the 3rd one go to? Could someone post a picture/diagram cause it seems kinda strange.

lemonlime

tmh88 wrote:

I was thinking about this reservoir http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-res-80.html . It says that its meant for high flow, and can fit wither 1/2" or 3/8". Only $15 too.

http://www.xoxide.com/danger-den-tdx-a64-38.html This dangerden cpu block seems to be very sturdy and is pressure tested up to 85psi.


http://www.xoxide.com/dd-black-ice-xtremeii-38.html and this massive 240mm radiator.

Also since that pump is so damn powerful, I was gonna stick in a tranny oil cooler that I found in my garage with 3/4" connection, but I found some adapters to get it to 5/8". I'll probably paint it black to match my case, and make a little frame for it and put some fans on it, and have it sitting on the top of my case. It resembles this one, but its not as wide http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/16000-GVW-Automatic-Transmission-Tranny-Oil-Cooler-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33727QQitemZ8047780005QQrdZ1


I also noticed that the pump has an adjustable flow control so I dont necessarily have to set it blasting water through the system.

One more thing, whats the point of having 3 connections on the waterblock? Where does the 3rd one go to? Could someone post a picture/diagram cause it seems kinda strange.

Cool stuff.. I have both the BIX2 and the DD TDX, they are awesome parts. There are a few better ones out there, but not by much, and for quite a bit more money. I'm going to be putting all of my H20 gear up for sale in the DD&TP soon, so keep an eye out for a thread if you want to save a few bux on the radiator and cpu block..

Those three-connector blocks simply have the inlet going into the center.. allowing high pressure water to cool the hottest part of the block. The water subsequently exits the two side outlets. You'll find that 99% of people just use a 'Y' connector on those two exits to get them back into the loop. The DD RBX was one of the first to use this design. It is efficient, but the TDX is just as good with only two fittings.

In regards to the resevoir.. you dont really need to use one.. I find it much easier to use a 'fill line' to the top of the case. Much easier to get the air out of the line IMO. The extra water in the loop with a res just makes the temp take longer to stabalize, but it'll reach the same temp in the end. The DD fill ports make this a very clean thing to do.

tmh88

I really want to watercool my computer but theres one thing holding me back. I'm going to college in the fall, so I'm going to get a laptop. I dont really want to spend $200 on watercooling, when I could use that toward the laptop. So either I buy the kit, and keep my computer. Or sell my computer and make some money off of it. My dad said he'd give me $400 for the computer, and he'd stick it in his office in our basement. Its very tempting, i know you guys must think I'm crazy for contemplating the $400 (but I wont get it until i get the laptop in the summer), but watercooling has been something I've always wanted to do. I've looked into it numerous times, but ended up spending my money on something else.

tmh88

so would you recommend a cpu block that has the 3 ports?

If I do get one, I'll probably get this one unless someone can show me one thats better for the same price, or cheaper. http://www.xoxide.com/danger-den-rbxa64-38.html

lemonlime

Its really not necessary to get the 3-way blocks, as many of the modern two-way jobbers perform just as well. The RBX is a good block though. Tubing will be a little less organized with the 3-way, but performance will be good. If you plan on using that high-flow pump, be sure to get the optional accelerator nozzel pack from danger den. I used the #4 nozzel in my TDX, and it helps to increase the spray pressure.

What exactly are you looking for in a water cooling system tmh? Its definitely a really cool project to undertake. I had a lot of fun getting mine setup for my old barton 3000+. Helped me to obtain a significant overclock. The biggest improvement was the extra OC headroom in my 9800pro. (went up to almost 500MHz core with a maze-4 block). Unfortunatly, with my A64 3500+, it was a different story. I gained ziltch. It really depends on the chip, but most of the cooler running winchester/venice processors will not benefit. The dual cores are another story altogether though, and many people are getting into water again as a result.

If silence is your goal, you have to select your components carefully, especially the pump. My Dangerden D4 was very powerful, but pretty loud unfortunatly. I originally had Delta 120s on that BIX2, and needless to say they were swapped for quieter Panaflow models. I have a feeling that the pump you have in mind will be loud, especially with specs like that.

tmh88

I want to do some overclocking and get my case a little bit quieter. I have 4 case fans, a cpu fan, and gpu fan....yea pretty loud.


I might just end up buying a kit because its alot easier that way.


any kits you recommend for a socket 754(64 3200+) around $180? I heard the corsair cool water is supposed to be decent.

GHoosdum

tmh, whatever way that you decide, I'd encourage you to post your results here. I'd love to see what you build up.

madmat

OK, I've gotta weigh in on this...that pump isn't all that powerfull, 314GPH isn't insane. Now 700 or so would be but, the D4 and D5 both are actually more powerful than that pond pump. The D4/5 have a head rating (the amount of working pressure that the pump generates) that's nearly double that particular pump.

That pump is rated for 7.3ft of head the D4/5 is rated for 2m of head which is about 13ft and is rated to work with 50PSI of pressure in the line. In a real world loop the D4/5 (Swiftech 650/655) will actually move more water around the loop since the power curve is greater for it, yes it's only starting out at 118GPM at zero head but at about 4ft head it's still moving over 80% of that so close to 100GPM whereas that pond pump could be down to as little as 80GPM. (note, a working loop places around 4FT of head on the pump)

Not to mention the magnetic swing associated with a 120V pump, (I'm speaking from experience here since I use 120V pumps) the swing or shift in magnetic fields caused by a 120V pump is stronger than that caused by a 12V pump due to the higher voltage. This means that you'll have more monitor shimmy from a 120V pump than you will from a 12V pump when you place the case close to the monitor. My case is 2' away from my monitor (I got a DELL P1130 the other day as a B'day present go me!) and it still causes a slight shimmy at that range. My old Hitachi was worse than the DELL but I could put a case with a D5 in it next to the Hitachi and (the pump was literally 8" away from the monitor) and get about as much shimmy as I'm getting with the DELL at 2' away which is not enough to notice unless you really look for it.

The Hitachi on the other hand with the pump a foot away would cause the monitor to shimmy (jiggle or whatever you care to call it) so bad as to be totally unusable.

LCDs don't have this problem that I've seen so if you're using one and not a CRT disregard this part but a CRT is very prone to interuption by magnetic fields (which is why most have degauss functions built in, the earth's magnetic field will cause discoloration in a CRT over time) so you need to ask yourself how close will the case be to the monitor and how prone to nausea are you.

tmh88

I have an LCD. My computer is on the floor bside my desk, and isnt 2m around 6 feet?

1 meter = approx. 3 feet?

lemonlime

madmat brings up some very good points. I didn't realize the head was only 7ft on that pond pump. The flow rate is huge at almost 3x that of the D4, but as matmat mentioned, the head is the most important specification for the type of loops present in H2O systems.

That home depot link didn't work for me, could you re-post? Any specific reason you are looking at that pump over a standard watercooling pump?

tmh88

lemonlime wrote:

Any reason you are looking at that pump over a standard watercooling pump?

yea Its $50, and I found a $20 gift certificate in my house.....$30 for a pump = sweet

http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0056247415.1142888058@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccchaddhflhmkgdcgelceffdfgidgkj.0&CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=misc/searchResults.jsp&MID=9876&N=2984+5426&pos=n19 if this doesnt directly link you to it, click water gardens, then pumps. Its the large fountain one, $50

madmat

Ok, I misquoted it's 4m of head and here's a link to the head curve graph. The D5 has nearly 267GPH flow wide open at 12V BTW, the 118 is the DD-DC 12V or Swiftech 350.

tmh88

Ok well if you guys didnt see my peltier thread, heres an update for you. I made a little diagram of a thought I had. The big rectangle is the reservoir and it is split in half.

READ THIS FIRST BEFORE VIEWING THE DIAGRAM!
Also another thing, instead of having the peltier on top i would mount it on the bottom, just to ensure the water is making 100% contact with the metal that the peltier is against. This reservoir would be the approximate size of a hard drive, but about 2.5-3" high (6.5-8cm).

This is JUST A THOUGHT! please dont give me a huge lecture why my idea will never work. Instead just mention what could/couldn't be used for a revision of it. Just a brainstorm here, i dont want to get flamed for an abstract idea I had.
-any mods feel free to delete my other thread about peltiers

madmat

It will work although you'll need a BIG peltier do cool everything and the pelt will need a dedicated rad.

I've got plans in my head for a similar setup and I'll denote it here at further length when I don't have a quart of strong bloody marys rolling around my gut but mine uses a water to water heat exchanger to mate the chilled water with the heated PC water and the pelt actually has 2 blocks on it, one to remove the heat and one to remove the cold.

I'll try to outline it further later but you will need about a 475W pelt as the pelt will be the only thing cooling the PC components.

tmh88

madmat, you seem to know ALOT about peltiers and I am still just learning about them. I have no idea how many watts will produce what temperature, and stuff like that. If you know of any good sites, or tutorials please post. I would really like to further develop the little plan i have.

madmat

My plan is to replace the radiator on the PC completely with water cooled by a pelt otherwise the pelt is being over-ridden by the ambient air temp (which is raising the water temp in this case) along with the PC components.

As for the wattage of pelt needed I'm going by the 80% rule of thumb here, if I'm trying to shed X amount of wattage go 120% bigger on the pelt. If you're wanting to go sub-ambient CPU temps then you need to go at the very least 100% greater on the pelt.

When I'm sober I can go into greater detail on what I have in mind because I'm sure that a output load of 230W will be chilled quite easily by a 475W pelt in my plan.

I'm pretty certain that you'll be able to follow what I've got in mind pretty readily.

lemonlime

Hey tmh, thats a cool idea, and I'd love to see that in action. One thing to keep in mind though: you don't want to split the resevoir right down the middle. In that diagram, the peltier is cooling the 'hot side' loop as well, which is undesirable and will waste a lot cooling potential. Without a passive radiator cooling the 'hot side' loop, it could burn up very quickly. The peltier cannot cool itself. You should have the hot side isolated in it's own loop with a large 120x2/120x3 radiator. I modified your diagram slightly, take a look..



OMGthe1337paintskillzz!!!11bbq

The strength of the peltier needed all depends on the water temperatures you want to maintain. The weakest link in this design is going to be cooling the water in the res efficiently. You'll need some kind of heatsink fins protruding from the cold plate. Also, to really transfer the CPU's heat out of the water, you'll need to force the water through the fins (like the swiftech designed water chiller that I posted a link to earlier.. i strongly suggest you take a look at that, as it'll give you lots of insight into water chilling).

@Madmat - 470W worth of peltiers (i assume 2x217W models) will chill the water well below 0'C but will require a MASSIVE amount of electricity to run. I don't think there are any PSUs avaliable (unless you go with something industrial) that can handle that load alone.. you'll need multiple PSUs to power that (1 for system and 1-2 for peltiers).. You'll be pumping a ton of heat into the room as well (literally 470W worth). It would probably make more sense to look into a used Mach I or other phase-change system for that kind of cooling power.

tmh88

haha yea i know it was just an idea that i had.

lemonlime

tmh88 wrote:

haha yea i know it was just an idea that i had.

Hey, its a really cool idea too.. I would really love to see that in action. As long as the pelt size is not too large, I think it is totally realistic and won't be too inefficient. Of course the temps won't be sub-zero with a smaller pelt, but it'll definitely keep them nice and low. If you do get around to putting this together, you should totally write something up for the front page

deicist

tmh88: You might want to have a gander at my adventures with a peltier Here. It's stalled a bit now while I try and get some cheap water cooling gear, but worth a read I think.

madmat

And you don't think that Mach II isn't dumping that same 4-500W of heat into your air instead of a rad doing it? O.o

You think it gets beamed into space? Seriously though if I'm going to go to that trouble I'm not going to have the air from the rad dump into my room. It'll blow out the window or something.

I know they have a 437W pelt, there's one in this picture. I'd assumed that there were bigger ones available.

lemonlime

madmat wrote:

And you don't think that Mach II isn't dumping that same 4-500W of heat into your air instead of a rad doing it?..

Actually, it wont, but not because it transports to another dimension the fact of the matter is that you don't need 500W worth of compressor based cooling to effectively cool a ~130W CPU to sub zero temperatures. A Vapochill LS draws about 250W of power IIRC (not 100% sure, but its somewhere in that range), and it will most likely do a better job than 500W worth of peltier based cooling.

I'm not trying to shoot down ideas, but I just think there are other options avaliable that may have higher initial cost, but will be much less painful for longterm use.

That 437W pelt is a beast btw!

madmat

One thing a waterchiller has over the phase change setups is the ability to pull the entire loop down to sub ambient temps, so I'm not talking about "Just a 130W CPU" I'm talking about a CPU and a GPU or 2 and quite possibly a northbridge.

No, you most likely won't go as far below ambient as with phase but that's also not the point, the point is just to do it.

tmh88

madmat wrote:

No, you most likely won't go as far below ambient as with phase but that's also not the point, the point is just to do it.

thats exactly what I was thinking when I designed it.