InfoThread: Mini-ITX, the HTPC standard?

deicistdeicist Manchester, UK
edited March 2006 in Hardware
Several people have been asking about HTPCs and I thought I'd just write a quick note about Mini-ITX. What is Mini-ITX I hear you ask? Well, it's basically a form factor (like ATX). And what does that mean in English? Well a form factor is a set of size specifications and guidelines for things like motherboard size and layout, power supply voltages, expansion port layout. The ATX form factor is the reason you can buy a power supply from one manufacturer, a motherboard from another and a case form a third and they'll all (usually) fit together. So, with that out of the way, what's the Mini-ITX form factor and why are we interested in it?

Mini-ITX is an inititiative founded by VIA which was intended to produce very small, low noise, low heat PCs for use in things like HTPCs. VIA makes several Mini-ITX motherboards, which typically have integrated sound, video, LAN etc.. and one of VIAs low power CPUs onboard. While these CPUs can't compete with a P4 or Athlon they're good enough for use in a media centre (HTPC) or for basic word processing, internet access etc. And the best part about these boards is their size. The 'mini' part of Mini-ITX isn't a misnomer, these things are tiny (17cm by 17cm) while the low power CPUs allow for much quieter and smaller cooling solutions to be used. The new 'C7' range of CPUs can run at up to 2GHz with fanless cooling solutions, which allows serious media functionality in a completely silent device.

VIA mini ITX site

Although started by VIA, other manufacturers are jumping on the Mini-ITX bandwagon. MSI and Gigabyte have both recently shown off their new mini-ITX offerings, which include (relatively) speedy C7 processors, DVI ports, SATA conenctors and ethernet ports onboard. All you need to add is memory (usually DDR2) and storage and you're set. As well as a motherboard you're going to need a mini-ITX case. Several manufacturers offer seriously cool cases for this form factor, a good place to start would be mini-ITX.com who offer a wide range of cases and motherboards from different manufacturers.

Mini ITX.com

As well as manufactured cases, the mini-itx form factor with it's small size and power requirements allows people to be a bit more imaginative when it comes to building a PC. Have a look at some of these inspired designs:

PC in a SNES

PC in a guitar

Pc in a Millenium falcon

Obviously none of those are going to look at home in a living room, but they demonstrate just how versatile this form factor is, and you should be able to see how good these boards are for media centre or HTPCs.

Comments

  • ArmoArmo Mr. Nice Guy Is Dead,Only Aqua Remains Member
    edited March 2006
    Places you can get ITX equipment:

    http://www.logicsupply.com/default.php

    i got more at home, ill have to wait till im off work.
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited March 2006
    I've been considering jumping into the mini-itx hardware... I'm just not 100% certain that the Via CPUs would be powerful enough to handle everything that an HTPC needs to do (my prior HTPC was an AXP 2500+) - not to mention a decided lack of expansion slots. What are your thoughts?
  • deicistdeicist Manchester, UK
    edited March 2006
    My personal philosphy on convergence PCs is that you shouldn't expect one PC to do everything. As a device purely for streaming media to the mini-ITX machines are perfect, but obviously if you want to rip DVDs on it it's going to take a while. I'd rather have a hefty PC in my bedroom for gaming / ripping DVDs etc... and a tiny, sexy mini-ITX box in my front room than one PC trying to do both jobs and look good at the same time. You have to compromise somewhere if you want a jack of all trades, personally I'd rather have each machine be perfect for the job I want it to do. Hence I have a HTPC, a fileserver, a main 'grunt' machine....
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited March 2006
    deicist wrote:
    My personal philosphy on convergence PCs is that you shouldn't expect one PC to do everything. As a device purely for streaming media to the mini-ITX machines are perfect, but obviously if you want to rip DVDs on it it's going to take a while. I'd rather have a hefty PC in my bedroom for gaming / ripping DVDs etc... and a tiny, sexy mini-ITX box in my front room than one PC trying to do both jobs and look good at the same time. You have to compromise somewhere if you want a jack of all trades, personally I'd rather have each machine be perfect for the job I want it to do. Hence I have a HTPC, a fileserver, a main 'grunt' machine....

    I'm totally on board with different machines for different tasks. That being said, my goal is to make my next HTPC to be a DVD player "plus" - that is, it obviously needs to play DVDs, but it also needs to be able to upconvert them to HDTV resolution. There is software to do this, but it is CPU intensive. I'm wondering if a VIA CPU could truly turn the task. Also, do you know offhand if it's possible to have the TV tuner in a seperate PC and stream the video from it in real time to the HTPC?
  • deicistdeicist Manchester, UK
    edited March 2006
    GHoosdum wrote:
    I'm totally on board with different machines for different tasks. That being said, my goal is to make my next HTPC to be a DVD player "plus" - that is, it obviously needs to play DVDs, but it also needs to be able to upconvert them to HDTV resolution. There is software to do this, but it is CPU intensive. I'm wondering if a VIA CPU could truly turn the task.

    Hmm, not sure about this, I'll look into it for you
    Also, do you know offhand if it's possible to have the TV tuner in a seperate PC and stream the video from it in real time to the HTPC?

    This is definatley possible. The 'microsoft' way to do this would be through the use of XP media center edition (on the server) streaming to a media center extender. This is a set top box type device that basically provides a remote front end for your media center. Another option is something like Snapstream which encodes video from the server pc and carries it over the network to your HTPC. Basically this is easily accomplished, TV cards in windows are standardised now, the MPEG stream is easily exposed to software and viewing it from a remote PC is a commonly desired application so there are solutions out there for it.
  • rykoryko new york
    edited March 2006
    GHoosdum wrote:
    ...That being said, my goal is to make my next HTPC to be a DVD player "plus" - that is, it obviously needs to play DVDs, but it also needs to be able to upconvert them to HDTV resolution. There is software to do this, but it is CPU intensive....

    that is exactly how i have one of my htpcs setup, but i am missing the upconversion software. what were you planning on using?
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited March 2006
    I've heard a lot of good things about ffdshow, and I'm considering using it. The downside is that it doesn't work with MCE or MCE doesn't play nice with it, whichever way you want to look at it.
  • ArmoArmo Mr. Nice Guy Is Dead,Only Aqua Remains Member
    edited March 2006
    they make special distros of linux for HTPC's i cant remember what they are called but i have them downloaded at hime, when i get home ill let you know. They are specially made for the EPIA boards from VIA as well.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited March 2006
    PC in a SNES is easy. Do it in a Real NES.
    http://www.knosp.com/projects/nespc/index.html
  • celchocelcho Tallahassee, FL Member
    edited March 2006
    these via machines aren't fast enough to display hd video, are they? that's going to be a deal breaker for me in some cases, although i guess they would be useful connected to older standard definition sets.
  • ArmoArmo Mr. Nice Guy Is Dead,Only Aqua Remains Member
    edited March 2006
    i think the key is to get a HD encoder/decoder on the card youselect for them. By default no, they will not display HD
  • rykoryko new york
    edited March 2006
    i think most of the via platforms won't be up to the task of HD....except maybe this dually...

    http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info.php/cPath/78_76/products_id/463

    also any of these p4 or p4-m based boards should be able to handle HD with the right cpu/gpu combo. notice pciex16 slots.

    http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info.php/cPath/78_55/products_id/409
    (p4)

    http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info.php/cPath/78_55/products_id/489
    (pentiumD)

    http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info.php/cPath/78_75/products_id/410
    (p4-m)

    too rich for my blood unfortunately.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited March 2006
    I need expansion on the order of that afforded by larger mATX boards for any HTPC I consider. I need wireless LAN because my TV is nowhere near a network drop, I need a discrete graphics card since no integrated solutions offer component video, I need a discrete sound card since AC97 codec audio is totally unacceptable, and I need a video capture/HDTV tuner card for integration with existing cable/satellite/OTA TV. These needs are not negotiable and cannot all be met with ITX.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • rykoryko new york
    edited March 2006
    fyi, msi and dfi have radeon xpress200 matx s939 boards with a component out dongle.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130520

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813136007

    but i agree with your other needs....most of these via platforms would be for appliancce like devices--not full blown htpcs with dvr funtionality.
  • deicistdeicist Manchester, UK
    edited March 2006
    Ignore this post, noob Guru (NoorU?) error :banghead:
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited March 2006
    Nice find ryko, I'll keep those in mind in the future. I wonder if ATI's Linux drivers support their integrated chipsets since I would be running MythTV on whatever I choose. At the moment I've got Omega65's old K7D Master-L in an Antec Overture II which doesn't actually run that hot and works pretty well.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • ArmoArmo Mr. Nice Guy Is Dead,Only Aqua Remains Member
    edited March 2006
    displaing HDTV wont be so much CPU power if you get a video card with a CODEC on it.

    HDTV recording.. the card will haf to have an encoder or your just up the creek.


    there are a bunch of video cards that can porduce HD out. only a handful can record in HD. ATI has a line of cards that can do it.
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited March 2006
    Armo, the problem with that is the mini-ITX systems don't have an AGP or PCI-E slot, the video processor is integrated into the mobo, and it's usually the Via UniChrome stuff.
  • ArmoArmo Mr. Nice Guy Is Dead,Only Aqua Remains Member
    edited March 2006
    true the VIA boards dont, but you can get PCI cards from Hauppuage that might do HD, also the P4 boards have PCI-E
  • rykoryko new york
    edited March 2006
    GHoosdum wrote:
    Armo, the problem with that is the mini-ITX systems don't have an AGP or PCI-E slot, the video processor is integrated into the mobo, and it's usually the Via UniChrome stuff.

    ummm...yes some do...the via ones don't but these p4, p4-m and pd boards have a 16x pcie slot.

    check out the bottom half of post #13 for the links...
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited March 2006
    I think I still prefer mATX for HTPCs as opposed to Mini-ITX. I don't think the via boards have enough balls. Many of the VIA CPUs, for example, don't have enough raw horsepower to make a high-bitrate MPEG4 stream play correctly (A/V desync is very, very common).
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited March 2006
    ryko wrote:
    ummm...yes some do...the via ones don't but these p4, p4-m and pd boards have a 16x pcie slot.

    check out the bottom half of post #13 for the links...

    I'm sorry, I was referring to just the VIA EPIA mini-ITX boards, not the Pentium compatible boards. I don't consider those to be part of my personal equation due to exhorbitant prices.
  • rykoryko new york
    edited March 2006
    yeah tell me about it.....i'd rather have an 7900gt/x1900xt than a mini-itx p-d board.

    what we need is a s939 mini-itx w/ pciex16 and hd audio for under $200.

    i'd also take a 975x version that supports yonah (core duo).
  • AtticusAtticus Dryden, Ontario, Canada.
    edited March 2006
    Heres an article/guide over at XYZ Computing using a mini-ITX system as a PVR. From start to finish is quite a read but its a neat project and shows the practical use of a mini-ITX system.

    Mini-ITX Project - part 1
    Mini-ITX Project - part 2
    Mini-ITX Project - part 3
  • TheSmJTheSmJ
    edited March 2006
    GHoosdum wrote:
    Also, do you know offhand if it's possible to have the TV tuner in a seperate PC and stream the video from it in real time to the HTPC?


    BeyondTV can do this. I do it at home quite a bit with my own copy.

    You buy one copy (~$70) and install it to your computer with the tuner card, then you install that same copy to the PC you want to stream it to with the "link" command in the shortcut. This would allow your remote PC to connect VIA LAN to the "Server PC" and stream all video (both recorded and live) to your remote PC.

    You can also control all the DVR functions from either the remote or server system.
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