Pirate software is illegal. If you want your proprietary software you should pay for it, but it is expensive and often vastly inferior.
I see no argument for Windows other than it is established as the "industry standard".
Oh, it is definitely better not to steal things...
but the support for almost everything is better in windows.
I like using linux...
for my server(s)
for dedicated folding boxes
for messing around
but...
wireless support is often lax
some gaming works, but other games take a lot of work, and others don't work at all
ati (for example) driver support is horrible
some programs just don't have equals in the open-source world
both are good for what I need them to do, but saying that one is "better" than the other as a blanket statement is just not possible (unless we're talking legally better).
Pirate software is illegal. If you want your proprietary software you should pay for it, but it is expensive and often vastly inferior.
I see no argument for Windows other than it is established as the "industry standard".
About the only thing I agree with is that pirating software is illegal. I like Linux, but it simply does not do squat for me other than certain games, and internet access, not to mention a good headache.
Oh, it is definitely better not to steal things...
but the support for almost everything is better in windows.
I like using linux...
for my server(s)
for dedicated folding boxes
for messing around
but...
wireless support is often lax
some gaming works, but other games take a lot of work, and others don't work at all
ati (for example) driver support is horrible
some programs just don't have equals in the open-source world
both are good for what I need them to do, but saying that one is "better" than the other as a blanket statement is just not possible (unless we're talking legally better).
Linux is far, far more powerful. Everything in windows is just so slow. Takes a zillion damned mouse clicks to do what I know is a one line command.
Whenever I use someone's windows machine to do something my hands are tied as to what I can do. If I want something powerful I usually have do download some awful shareware or so. (e.g. multiple file text replace)
I have never found anything that I -need- to do, which is impossible in Linux but possible in windows. (running certain games is a want not a need)
As for wireless.. Even unsupported cards are usable with ndiswrapper, which has never failed me thus far, even with the most obscure of wireless cards.
ATI just sucks, though their linux support has improved a lot recently: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34522
Name a program (other than a specific game or bespoke software product) and I will find an alternative. :P
Photoshop (don't say gimp)
Itunes (playing m4p support)
The wireless wlan200 built into my laptop.
Writing to ntfs (haven't tried recently)
Don't get me wrong. I like linux. You, however, are not going to convince me it's a windows replacement. And I am not going to (nor am I trying to) convince you that windows is "better" than linux. They're just different.
Linux is far, far more powerful. Everything in windows is just so slow. Takes a zillion damned mouse clicks to do what I know is a one line command.
Yes, but when I first started with linux, I broke X (or at least stopped the x server). I had zero idea what to do when that happened. If the same happened to fnando, I have a feeling he wouldn't either. So the power of the command line is pretty much moot for starters.
Photoshop (don't say gimp)
Itunes (playing m4p support)
The wireless wlan200 built into my laptop.
Writing to ntfs (haven't tried recently)
Don't get me wrong. I like linux. You, however, are not going to convince me it's a windows replacement. And I am not going to (nor am I trying to) convince you that windows is "better" than linux. They're just different.
Yes, but when I first started with linux, I broke X (or at least stopped the x server). I had zero idea what to do when that happened. If the same happened to fnando, I have a feeling he wouldn't either. So the power of the command line is pretty much moot for starters.
For photoshop you can use a combination of the gimp and inkscape, depending on what you want to do. But if you really need *photoshop*, you can just wine it.
As for m4p support, a quick google turned up this: http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Play_M4P_Audio_Files
However, I fear what you are talking about is DRM.
It is actually ILLEGAL, under the DMCA, for a linux developer to code support for DRM. On pain of upto 12 years prison. :cry:
It is not a copyright enforcement measure, it is an anti-competitive measure.
DRM is just evil, but that is another thread.
I don't know about that wireless card. Google seems to say you didn't specify enough info on it for me to look it up, but chances are it works under ndiswrapper.
And for the users who break their X server and don't know what to do, there are tons of very friendly IRC support channels where people will happily tell you how to fix X, and you learn a heck of a lot in the process. ^_^
There are distros like Ubuntu which work extremely well for users. Even my mum can use it.
That's gotta prove that it can be, and is, a viable windows replacement.
Just maybe not for some stubborn users, like yourself, with extremely specific needs. ^_^
What you are quoting is not a failing of Linux. It is a failing of hardware and software makers who insist on making their code proprietary and defending their so-called "intellectual property" such that linux developers are legally prohibeted from writing drivers or cross-platform ports for their hardware/software.
Josephine Shmosephine wouldn't have broken X in the first place.
Jim, I see your point, believe me I do. I make lots of money by using Linux.. More money than I could if I were using Windows instead (I am in the hosting business).. but seriously, open your mind a bit. You cannot say that "linux is better than windows. Period. The End." .. Perhaps for you, great.... But for my sixteen year old sister, linux blows. For my dad, linux is a nightmare. For my neighbor who wants a computer strictly to play Battlefield 2, there's no way on earth I would install linux on his computer. You are an experienced computer user. Linux might be fine for you. ANY OS can "do whatever", if the user is determined enough. But in the end, that determination is dictated by the type of user. Many people want to just sit down and use the computer, and many times that means doing the things they have come to expect that they can do - things their friends, family, coworkers, and kids can do on their computers. Trust me, I've tried the linux experiment. I've tried converting people to the "free is better! Why spend $100 on windows?" philosophy, but in the end, it's true, linux is just not ready for the masses.
It's just not, my friend. It's a great OS, you'll hear no argument from me, but it is most definitely not ready for the masses.
Jim, I see your point, believe me I do. I make lots of money by using Linux.. More money than I could if I were using Windows instead (I am in the hosting business).. but seriously, open your mind a bit. You cannot say that "linux is better than windows. Period. The End." .. Perhaps for you, great.... But for my sixteen year old sister, linux blows. For my dad, linux is a nightmare. For my neighbor who wants a computer strictly to play Battlefield 2, there's no way on earth I would install linux on his computer. You are an experienced computer user. Linux might be fine for you. ANY OS can "do whatever", if the user is determined enough. But in the end, that determination is dictated by the type of user. Many people want to just sit down and use the computer, and many times that means doing the things they have come to expect that they can do - things their friends, family, coworkers, and kids can do on their computers. Trust me, I've tried the linux experiment. I've tried converting people to the "free is better! Why spend $100 on windows?" philosophy, but in the end, it's true, linux is just not ready for the masses.
It's just not, my friend. It's a great OS, you'll hear no argument from me, but it is most definitely not ready for the masses.
Ok, so there is a band of users who would not be able to use Linux exclusively, as you have described: Gamers and other users with specific proprietary software or hardware needs.
BUT, that is by no means all users.
There are two bands of users either side. Above, you have programmers/hackers/power users, who don't play very many games, like myself. This is the principal portion of Linux desktop users.
But on the other side, you have the very basic users. Users who do not play any games, they just want to browse the web, read their email, and word process.
For these users (like my mum), linux is also perfect. They may even be more common than gamers.
However they often don't even know that Linux exists, or that it is free and suitable for their needs. They think it is just for hackers.
That is what needs to change.
sigh. without knowing who they polled, that is useless (don't know about what subsets overlap).
I'll bet that the people who only want internet and e-mail and word processing from their computer make are a large portion of the 17%.
And I think that a lot of the people who only want their pc for the simple stuff have kids that might want to go out and buy a game and just have it work.
and people who just want the generic stuff often venture into the games menu for some time off.
Ok, so there is a band of users who would not be able to use Linux exclusively, as you have described
That "band" is in the hundreds of millions of people. Microsoft and Apple didn't become multi-billion dollar companies because a few doofuses liked their marketing plan.
There are two bands of users either side. Above, you have programmers/hackers/power users, who don't play very many games, like myself. This is the principal portion of Linux desktop users.
But on the other side, you have the very basic users. Users who do not play any games, they just want to browse the web, read their email, and word process.
For these users (like my mum), linux is also perfect. They may even be more common than gamers.
However they often don't even know that Linux exists, or that it is free and suitable for their needs. They think it is just for hackers.
That is what needs to change.
I agree that basic computer use like web, email, word processing would be great in Linux.. However, people always want to do more. For example, my kid sister - once she got used to being able to W/E/WP, she wanted to do more. She got an ipod and a digital camera. Picasa works great. Itunes just works. Webcam - just works. you plug stuff in, it just works. Macs are like this too.. That's why there are millions of users.
Think about that - Mac OS... milllions.. Windows.. millions.. Why? The essential difference? The user experience. That's why.
Linux doesn't "just work" - that's the #1 problem to adoption. There's nothing philosophical or political about it. It's certainly BETTER than it has been, ubuntu is ALMOST there - but still, it does not...."just".... work...
sigh. without knowing who they polled, that is useless (don't know about what subsets overlap).
I'll bet that the people who only want internet and e-mail and word processing from their computer make are a large portion of the 17%.
And I think that a lot of the people who only want their pc for the simple stuff have kids that might want to go out and buy a game and just have it work.
Well, I actually work in a computer shop, and many people still insist on buying computers with no 3D capability (i810 or so) these are new computers, and I tell them that they will not be able to play any games on them, or run the next version of windows when it comes.
They acknowledge this, and still purchase the budget computer.
It is these people that I am describing.
I would also speculate that they do not use iTunes at all, even if they own iPods. e.g. my old music teacher says he would never buy from iTunes or so, for his iPod, as the quality is nowhere near as good as when taken straight off the CD. I have heard some customers say this too.
I was actually avoiding the "it just works" thing...so I wouldn't start sounding like a mac advocate. (which would just make this even more fun)
edit:
your title is very apt.
zeal·ot (zĕl'ət) pronunciation
n.
1.
1. One who is zealous, especially excessively so.
2. A fanatically committed person.
2. Zealot A member of a Jewish movement of the first century A.D. that fought against Roman rule in Palestine as incompatible with strict monotheism.
Linux can, and often does "just work". The only thing that stops it from doing so, is when you inevitably run into some proprietary software or hardware that does not provide support for Linux.
This is merely a market penetration issue. Again not a fault of Linux itself.
And it will never cease to be an issue unless we help promote Linux as a desktop user OS.
More and more people are adopting it as such, but if you claim that it is not ready, then it never will be, because the vicious cycle will just continue.
Not use the programs/games/hardware that I want to because they don't work in linux? This works fine for things like NICs that have different brands that may work. But what about games I want to play? I'm not going to give them up, just so that linux can become more popular. Or should I discard my .m4p collection so that I can run linux? Run older versions of programs that work in wine and wait for the new ones to be supported?
This may happen when things get too locked down with drm/(insert scary vista thing here), but for now, windows may be better (for me) because of market dominance, but it is still better (for me).
This is merely a market penetration issue. Again not a fault of Linux itself.
I guess what it boils down to is this: are you advocating the kernel itself or a specific OS? Ubuntu? Kubuntu? CentOS? Fedora?
You sound as if you are arguing the kernel. Yes, I am 100% in agreement with you - the linux kernel rocks. It's great. It's a triumph of the human spirit, yadda yadda.
My point is: The end user could give a **** about the kernel. They wouldn't know the NT kernel from the DOS kernel from the Vista kernel from the BSD kernel from the latest price of pork bellies.
If you could put the windows XP gui and API layers on top of the linux kernel, you'd have - to the end user - THE EXACT SAME OS. Apple pulled it off once - they COMPLETELY CHANGED THEIR KERNEL from something in house to BSD. They just so happened to also change the gui while they were at it, but they theoretically could have introduced the darwin kernel in a "classic" environment, and the general end users would have not noticed one whit.
What Shwaip and myself, and the hundreds of millions of sheep who buy windows PCs, are saying is that the kernel is ultimately nothing. It's the USER EXPERIENCE that matters. Chicken and egg, sure... You won't get the user experience unless people use it and demand this-and-that and then vendors will write software and drivers for their stuff and blah blah blah.
The market dictates what works. Windows works. I'm willing to spent $99 to give my mom, dad, or sister a seamless, easy experience. If there were a $99 linux distro that I could do this with (and don't argue with me on this - I've tried them.), I would - IF THE EXPERIENCE WERE BETTER THAN WINDOWS. That's the end result - your definition of "better" is not the same as "Aunt Josephine's"
Not use the programs/games/hardware that I want to because they don't work in linux? This works fine for things like NICs that have different brands that may work. But what about games I want to play? I'm not going to give them up, just so that linux can become more popular. Or should I discard my .m4p collection so that I can run linux? Run older versions of programs that work in wine and wait for the new ones to be supported?
This may happen when things get too locked down with drm/(insert scary vista thing here), but for now, windows may be better (for me) because of market dominance, but it is still better (for me).
Well, really you should have known better than to buy a m4p collection, as you don't even own it. You can't expect it to play in a few months anyway, when you lose your machineID key or someone decides to revoke it.
Whenever I find something that is broken in Linux that really shouldn't be (e.g. a web page that uses ActiveX) I send a fiery email off to whoever maintains it.
It may not help in the short term, but it lets the purveyors of broken software know that they are losing out on business.
Hopefully it will make more people support Linux when they release new hardware/software/websites.
As for games.. I have reluctantly subscribed to Cedega. It plays most things, maybe not the latest games like FEAR and so, but then I don't have time for those anyway. ^_^
And yeah, if I were you I'd crack those m4p's and transcode them to vorbis or mp3 while you still can, and ditch iTunes.
I'd be willing to pay more for a linux version that had the exact same user experience as windows because I know the linux kernel is better.
I'm really close to switching to only linux on my laptop, but there are just a couple things I really want to work (built in wireless (can be solved fairly easily) and m4p (not so easy)) that are stopping me. I really only use it for power-user type stuff - I game on my desktop.
JimBowen
Southampton, England
Comments
Not used windows on my own machine in three years, and yes I do play games.
He has an nVidia card, which work extremely well in Linux, and something like Ubuntu would be suitable for his needs as an inexperienced user.
Free software is ALWAYS better than pirate software.
I see no argument for Windows other than it is established as the "industry standard".
but the support for almost everything is better in windows.
I like using linux...
for my server(s)
for dedicated folding boxes
for messing around
but...
wireless support is often lax
some gaming works, but other games take a lot of work, and others don't work at all
ati (for example) driver support is horrible
some programs just don't have equals in the open-source world
both are good for what I need them to do, but saying that one is "better" than the other as a blanket statement is just not possible (unless we're talking legally better).
About the only thing I agree with is that pirating software is illegal. I like Linux, but it simply does not do squat for me other than certain games, and internet access, not to mention a good headache.
You get what you paid for:Pwned:
Accuraly ati's linux catalyst 6.9 drivers have greatly improved since the previous release.
do they acknowledge that I might want to run linux on my laptop that has a radeon 7000 in it, or only newer cards?
Linux is far, far more powerful. Everything in windows is just so slow. Takes a zillion damned mouse clicks to do what I know is a one line command.
Whenever I use someone's windows machine to do something my hands are tied as to what I can do. If I want something powerful I usually have do download some awful shareware or so. (e.g. multiple file text replace)
I have never found anything that I -need- to do, which is impossible in Linux but possible in windows. (running certain games is a want not a need)
As for wireless.. Even unsupported cards are usable with ndiswrapper, which has never failed me thus far, even with the most obscure of wireless cards.
ATI just sucks, though their linux support has improved a lot recently: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34522
Name a program (other than a specific game or bespoke software product) and I will find an alternative. :P
Itunes (playing m4p support)
The wireless wlan200 built into my laptop.
Writing to ntfs (haven't tried recently)
Don't get me wrong. I like linux. You, however, are not going to convince me it's a windows replacement. And I am not going to (nor am I trying to) convince you that windows is "better" than linux. They're just different.
Yes, but when I first started with linux, I broke X (or at least stopped the x server). I had zero idea what to do when that happened. If the same happened to fnando, I have a feeling he wouldn't either. So the power of the command line is pretty much moot for starters.
For photoshop you can use a combination of the gimp and inkscape, depending on what you want to do. But if you really need *photoshop*, you can just wine it.
As for m4p support, a quick google turned up this: http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Play_M4P_Audio_Files
However, I fear what you are talking about is DRM.
It is actually ILLEGAL, under the DMCA, for a linux developer to code support for DRM. On pain of upto 12 years prison. :cry:
It is not a copyright enforcement measure, it is an anti-competitive measure.
DRM is just evil, but that is another thread.
I don't know about that wireless card. Google seems to say you didn't specify enough info on it for me to look it up, but chances are it works under ndiswrapper.
as for NTFS: http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/
And for the users who break their X server and don't know what to do, there are tons of very friendly IRC support channels where people will happily tell you how to fix X, and you learn a heck of a lot in the process. ^_^
There are distros like Ubuntu which work extremely well for users. Even my mum can use it.
That's gotta prove that it can be, and is, a viable windows replacement.
Just maybe not for some stubborn users, like yourself, with extremely specific needs. ^_^
Still, if linux is so great, why I am emulating windows to run the things I want?
I know the things I want don't work (legally or otherwise) (ntfs excepted). That's why I listed them.
How am I supposed to get on IRC if all I see is the CLI prompt? (I have two computers, but maybe Josephine Shmosephine doesn't).
Josephine Shmosephine wouldn't have broken X in the first place.
It's just not, my friend. It's a great OS, you'll hear no argument from me, but it is most definitely not ready for the masses.
Cliff's notes:
I know that hw/sw/game not working in linux isn't linux's fault.
I still can't do what I want.
I like linux.
I like windows.
I am not trying to tell you that linux is bad.
Because they would never want decent 3d performance that necessitated editing the x config file or maybe installing a driver?
Ok, so there is a band of users who would not be able to use Linux exclusively, as you have described: Gamers and other users with specific proprietary software or hardware needs.
BUT, that is by no means all users.
There are two bands of users either side. Above, you have programmers/hackers/power users, who don't play very many games, like myself. This is the principal portion of Linux desktop users.
But on the other side, you have the very basic users. Users who do not play any games, they just want to browse the web, read their email, and word process.
For these users (like my mum), linux is also perfect. They may even be more common than gamers.
However they often don't even know that Linux exists, or that it is free and suitable for their needs. They think it is just for hackers.
That is what needs to change.
Precisely.
Re: xconfig
what if tuxracer (or insert other 3d game here) doesn't run fast enough for them? And they head out on the internets to find help?
They wouldn't want a 3D game. I am talking about users who just surf the web and read their email.
Btw theres also many free alternatives to itunes if you just want to put music on your ipod.
I'll bet that the people who only want internet and e-mail and word processing from their computer make are a large portion of the 17%.
And I think that a lot of the people who only want their pc for the simple stuff have kids that might want to go out and buy a game and just have it work.
and people who just want the generic stuff often venture into the games menu for some time off.
...but it's a good timekill.
That "band" is in the hundreds of millions of people. Microsoft and Apple didn't become multi-billion dollar companies because a few doofuses liked their marketing plan.
I agree that basic computer use like web, email, word processing would be great in Linux.. However, people always want to do more. For example, my kid sister - once she got used to being able to W/E/WP, she wanted to do more. She got an ipod and a digital camera. Picasa works great. Itunes just works. Webcam - just works. you plug stuff in, it just works. Macs are like this too.. That's why there are millions of users.
Think about that - Mac OS... milllions.. Windows.. millions.. Why? The essential difference? The user experience. That's why.
Linux doesn't "just work" - that's the #1 problem to adoption. There's nothing philosophical or political about it. It's certainly BETTER than it has been, ubuntu is ALMOST there - but still, it does not...."just".... work...
Well, I actually work in a computer shop, and many people still insist on buying computers with no 3D capability (i810 or so) these are new computers, and I tell them that they will not be able to play any games on them, or run the next version of windows when it comes.
They acknowledge this, and still purchase the budget computer.
It is these people that I am describing.
I would also speculate that they do not use iTunes at all, even if they own iPods. e.g. my old music teacher says he would never buy from iTunes or so, for his iPod, as the quality is nowhere near as good as when taken straight off the CD. I have heard some customers say this too.
edit:
your title is very apt.
This is merely a market penetration issue. Again not a fault of Linux itself.
And it will never cease to be an issue unless we help promote Linux as a desktop user OS.
More and more people are adopting it as such, but if you claim that it is not ready, then it never will be, because the vicious cycle will just continue.
Not use the programs/games/hardware that I want to because they don't work in linux? This works fine for things like NICs that have different brands that may work. But what about games I want to play? I'm not going to give them up, just so that linux can become more popular. Or should I discard my .m4p collection so that I can run linux? Run older versions of programs that work in wine and wait for the new ones to be supported?
This may happen when things get too locked down with drm/(insert scary vista thing here), but for now, windows may be better (for me) because of market dominance, but it is still better (for me).
It's not the putting music on the ipod I want to do, it's playing the protected songs. Does that work in wine? (I actually don't know).
I guess what it boils down to is this: are you advocating the kernel itself or a specific OS? Ubuntu? Kubuntu? CentOS? Fedora?
You sound as if you are arguing the kernel. Yes, I am 100% in agreement with you - the linux kernel rocks. It's great. It's a triumph of the human spirit, yadda yadda.
My point is: The end user could give a **** about the kernel. They wouldn't know the NT kernel from the DOS kernel from the Vista kernel from the BSD kernel from the latest price of pork bellies.
If you could put the windows XP gui and API layers on top of the linux kernel, you'd have - to the end user - THE EXACT SAME OS. Apple pulled it off once - they COMPLETELY CHANGED THEIR KERNEL from something in house to BSD. They just so happened to also change the gui while they were at it, but they theoretically could have introduced the darwin kernel in a "classic" environment, and the general end users would have not noticed one whit.
What Shwaip and myself, and the hundreds of millions of sheep who buy windows PCs, are saying is that the kernel is ultimately nothing. It's the USER EXPERIENCE that matters. Chicken and egg, sure... You won't get the user experience unless people use it and demand this-and-that and then vendors will write software and drivers for their stuff and blah blah blah.
The market dictates what works. Windows works. I'm willing to spent $99 to give my mom, dad, or sister a seamless, easy experience. If there were a $99 linux distro that I could do this with (and don't argue with me on this - I've tried them.), I would - IF THE EXPERIENCE WERE BETTER THAN WINDOWS. That's the end result - your definition of "better" is not the same as "Aunt Josephine's"
Well, really you should have known better than to buy a m4p collection, as you don't even own it. You can't expect it to play in a few months anyway, when you lose your machineID key or someone decides to revoke it.
Whenever I find something that is broken in Linux that really shouldn't be (e.g. a web page that uses ActiveX) I send a fiery email off to whoever maintains it.
It may not help in the short term, but it lets the purveyors of broken software know that they are losing out on business.
Hopefully it will make more people support Linux when they release new hardware/software/websites.
As for games.. I have reluctantly subscribed to Cedega. It plays most things, maybe not the latest games like FEAR and so, but then I don't have time for those anyway. ^_^
And yeah, if I were you I'd crack those m4p's and transcode them to vorbis or mp3 while you still can, and ditch iTunes.
I'm really close to switching to only linux on my laptop, but there are just a couple things I really want to work (built in wireless (can be solved fairly easily) and m4p (not so easy)) that are stopping me. I really only use it for power-user type stuff - I game on my desktop.