Al, when you decide to dump that 9800 Pro 256... I'll be interested in taking it off your hands. I've got a moldy ol' P4 2.26B system that could use it.
I've always enjoyed watching how over the past 5 years how the GPU from NVidia has changed the way we enjoy todays games and the impressive technologies utilized to form a 3D scene. From the early days of mip-mapping & texture pasting to today's pixel shaders, vertex shaders and multi-pipelined, half Gigahertz GPU's, the video card & 3D technology has seen unparalleled advances thanks to NVidia, ATI, 3DFX and Matrox.
Again, we as computer-enthusiasts should also step back and enjoy what we have: most computer users have integrated graphics or lower-powered graphics cards that are not even capable of reaching NV20/Radeon 8500 levels of performance, let alone the break-neck performance of the R350/NV35. We all get so wound up in a couple of FPS in certain areas, where most people can't even touch the 100 FPS mark with AA & AF enabled.
Al, you would have hated the pre-Catalyst world. A different driver for each and every graphics card & graphics processor. ATI was the worst for that. I remember the days of needing a new driver for the Rage 128 & 128 Pro, a seperate one for the Rage Turbo & Rage Pro Turbo and yet another seperate one for the RageIIC. It was a nightmare. NVidia has always had amazing driver support since their TNT2 cards supporing DirectX 6.0 extensions. Detonator is the pinnacle in driver technology. It supports every product since the TNT2 with a single driver. You can't beat that.
I can't wait for the NV40/R420 matchup. Should be interesting to see if NVidia decides to change DX9 HLSL's and utilize the industry standard one, or if they are going to continue to push their Cg architecture. Plus, each of these cards will natively support PCI Express.
As for video cards I've used in my main system at one time or another, the listing is quite extensive and I've always been happy with all of the purchases, minus two (damned Matrox and their blatent lies for performance claims and the NVidia GeForce FX 5800 Ultra, the loudest damned cooler I've ever heard, louder than my 92mm Tornado). Informed users make informed decisions:
#9 GXE 1 MB ISA
Cirrus Logic 3xxx Series 1 MB ISA
ATI Mach64 256-GVT 2 MB PCI
ATI Video Expression 4 MB PCI
Diamond Monster 3D 4 MB PCI
ATI Xpert@Play 98 8 MB PCI
Diamond V550 Riva TNT 16 MB
3DFX Voodoo 3 3000 16 MB AGP
ATI Rage 128 Pro 16 MB AGP
A-Trend Riva TNT2 M64 32 MB
Diamond V770 Riva TNT2 Ultra 32 MB
Creative Labs Annihilator GeForce 256 SDR 32 MB
Creative Labs Annihilator Pro GeForce 256 DDR 32 MB
ATI Rage Fury MAXX 64 MB
3DFX Voodoo 5 5500 64 MB
Hercules 3D Prophet II GTS 32 MB DDR (NV15)
3DFX Voodoo 5 6000 128 MB (this was a BEAST of a card)
Hercules 3D Prophet II Ultra 64 MB DDR (NV15)
Hercules 3D Prophet III 64 MB DDR (NV20)
Matrox Parhelia 512 128 MB (I think it was 128 MB's) <-- horrendous 3D performance
Hercules 3D Prophet III Ti500 64 MB DDR (NV20-Ti500)
ATI Radeon 8500 DV 64 MB DDR
Asus V8440 GeForce 4 Ti4400 128 MB DDR
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro 128 MB DDR
BFG Asylum GeForce FX 5800 Ultra (yes, the dustbuster)
ATI Radeon 9800 128 MB DDR
ATI Radeon 9800 BIOS modded to 9800 Pro 128 MB DDR <-- I'm on this one right now.
BFG Asylum GeForce FX 5900 Ultra 256 MB DDR
I can't justify paying $520.00 USD for the FX when the R350 does the same for 35% less
When I bought MY CARD I paid $520 for it and the 256Mb 9800Pro was $499.00 that's a 5% difference in price so where in the hell do you come up with 35%?
NEW MATH????????
Ya want to know something?
I liked it here until it became a ****ing witch hunt because I DON"T like what you THINK I should...I'll go back to the forums I normally hang at and reset my F@H team to a better class of loser (Max pc is #7 anyways) and y'all can go take a flying leap at yourselves!!!
It's not a witch hunt at all. Everyone's free to express their opinion here @ SM, it's the foundation of the community.
My mistake on the 35%... I had the 2 pricing structures mixed up (when you bought and when I bought).
It's your choice whether you wish to remain a member of this community. It would be sad to see SM lose a member, but if that's what you wish to do, then take care over @ Maximum PC.
I said over and over that ATI had the better Dx9 structure did I not?
I also said that I was happy with my card and stated the reasons why I was but I kept being hammered about using a technically inferior card and I got tired of it and remain so.
If I'm happy sitting naked on an iceberg I should be allowed to do so without someone trying to dress me...just as if you're happy in your fur parkas I'm not going to try to get you to strip down and join me in freezing my butt off...I make my choices so let me enjoy them. You make your choices and enjoy them at your happiness and I'll let you without trying to tell you why you're wrong. (not that I'm saying you are wrong, just making a point)
I'm not trying to convert anyone to Nvidia, I'm just fed up with people that don't use Nvidia cards jumping on a bandwagon without ever judging from experience...I went with the card that I like better by my own experiences and by it meeting what was the criteria I needed to see met not because someone else said it was better or worse than what else was out there.
Every component in my case was picked in that same manner and if I had it to do all over again I'd make the same choices save the Motherboard and the one I'd choose now was just vaporware when I bought the stuff I have now...I would have bought it in the first place but I didn't feel like waiting for it to be released so I went with choice number 2.
Go through the entire thread and re-read every last word. With an unbiased opinion think of which statements have degraded this thread. See which statements seem to have a fanboy mentality. See which statements seem to be close-minded.
Simguy and Thrax did a wonderful job of explaining the technical reasons of why ATi's DX9 cards are a more intelligent 3d choice, while you simply digressed and spoke of how you like the feel and stability of the nvidia based cards.
No one is out to get you or your lovely Nvidia. No one is attacking Nvidia, it's not a witch hunt, all of us want to see Nvidia release good cards, but we are not going to continute praising them blindly when they make a poor decision.
Seriously think about what you have said in this thread. Consider that perhaps you are the one acting a little immature and not being reasonable.
I'm not praising them blindly either...never did I say that they were better or that ATI was worse.
I defended my decision to purchase what I wanted to purchase and I'm not really interested in writing a white paper or reading one either.
Thrax stated earlier that from the 8500 on ATI has beaten Nvidia at every turn and I disagree and SimGuy earlier had stated that after the release of the GF4 TI series of cards that ATI was no longer leading the fray until they re-wrote the rulebook by delivering a great card in the 9700...I agree with him.
All the ATI cards from that point on have been great cards that deliver excellent performance and sheer raw visual splendor but what I keep saying is that the Nvidia cards aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be and are in fact viable alternatives to an ATI if you are so inclined to spend your money on one.
I hope that in the future Nvidia does release a new chip that properly utilizes the Dx9 pipeline as it's written by Microsoft .
That said I still see the post's that were made earlier as being made in order to try to make me consider that I'd made a mistake in purchasing my card and that's what made me mad.
I bought my card because it's what I wanted to buy. It's as simple as that and I'm not going to appologize for my decision to send my money to Nvidia even if it's not as good a card as the 9800pro or XT.
I knew it wasn't when I bought it.
No matter if you or anyone else feels that I'm an idiot for buying it based on asthetic reasons or because the moon was in the right phase of eclipse the day I bought it the fact remains that I did it for what I feel are valid reasons and all the way through this thread I've stood by my guns.
As I said earlier I made my choices after compairing both graphics sets in action and decided the pro's and con's based on what I felt were good for me...is that a fanboy attitude?
I can't justify paying $520.00 USD for the FX when the R350 does the same for 35% less
When I bought MY CARD I paid $520 for it and the 256Mb 9800Pro was $499.00 that's a 5% difference in price so where in the hell do you come up with 35%?
NEW MATH????????
Ya want to know something?
I liked it here until it became a ****ing witch hunt because I DON"T like what you THINK I should...I'll go back to the forums I normally hang at and reset my F@H team to a better class of loser (Max pc is #7 anyways) and y'all can go take a flying leap at yourselves!!!
This is a fanboy attitude. Getting pissed off and acting like a little kid. Keep in mind this is coming from a 15 year old.
We do have the right to state why the 9800 Pro is a better choice over the 5900U. That is what has been done. I respect your decision and realize that you made it based on previous experiences. I am not calling you a fan boy for that. I am calling you a fanboy for the way you acted in the post quoted above.
All that has been presented from Thrax and Simguy is technical logic. They may have questioned your purchase and they are entitled to that. This is a computer hardware forum where debates often occur.
Everyone questions everyone's purchases it's human nature. We are inclined to do so. You explained your point and Thrax and Simguy explained their's. Everyone's allowed that, they did it in a logical manner, but for the sake of this thread being educational please try and keep it civilized.
Thrax stated earlier that from the 8500 on ATI has beaten Nvidia at every turn
No, what I actually said was:
This was the summer of 2002. Upon the introduction of the Catalyst drivers with the Radeon 8500 in late summer of '02, the GeForce3 TI500, the 8500's competing card, started losing benchmarks.
The 8500 ended up being superior to the TI500 in DirectX applications, and inferior to the TI500 at OpenGL applications. I then went on to <i>objectively</i> illustrate the large rift between ATI and nVidia cards. The GeForce4 was an in-between model with no direct competitor from ATI, as there was a gap between the 8500 and the 9700 Pro where nVidia produced a generation that ATI did not.
After the introduction of the Radeon 9700 Pro, ATI has produced a card that is objectively superior to every directly-competing model from nVidia.
9700 Pro v. 5800 Ultra
9800 Pro v. 5900 Ultra
9600 XT v. 5950
9600 XT v. 5700 Ultra
9600 Pro v. 9600 Pro
Etcetera.
That is what I said, and it is factually suppported. Please don't put words in my mouth.
0
Mt_GoatHead Cheezy KnobPflugerville (north of Austin)Icrontian
In the gaming market if you buy either brand you've done well! In the pro market I wouldn't get either unless there were tight budget restraints. just my $.02
Comments
I've always enjoyed watching how over the past 5 years how the GPU from NVidia has changed the way we enjoy todays games and the impressive technologies utilized to form a 3D scene. From the early days of mip-mapping & texture pasting to today's pixel shaders, vertex shaders and multi-pipelined, half Gigahertz GPU's, the video card & 3D technology has seen unparalleled advances thanks to NVidia, ATI, 3DFX and Matrox.
Again, we as computer-enthusiasts should also step back and enjoy what we have: most computer users have integrated graphics or lower-powered graphics cards that are not even capable of reaching NV20/Radeon 8500 levels of performance, let alone the break-neck performance of the R350/NV35. We all get so wound up in a couple of FPS in certain areas, where most people can't even touch the 100 FPS mark with AA & AF enabled.
Al, you would have hated the pre-Catalyst world. A different driver for each and every graphics card & graphics processor. ATI was the worst for that. I remember the days of needing a new driver for the Rage 128 & 128 Pro, a seperate one for the Rage Turbo & Rage Pro Turbo and yet another seperate one for the RageIIC. It was a nightmare. NVidia has always had amazing driver support since their TNT2 cards supporing DirectX 6.0 extensions. Detonator is the pinnacle in driver technology. It supports every product since the TNT2 with a single driver. You can't beat that.
I can't wait for the NV40/R420 matchup. Should be interesting to see if NVidia decides to change DX9 HLSL's and utilize the industry standard one, or if they are going to continue to push their Cg architecture. Plus, each of these cards will natively support PCI Express.
As for video cards I've used in my main system at one time or another, the listing is quite extensive and I've always been happy with all of the purchases, minus two (damned Matrox and their blatent lies for performance claims and the NVidia GeForce FX 5800 Ultra, the loudest damned cooler I've ever heard, louder than my 92mm Tornado). Informed users make informed decisions:
#9 GXE 1 MB ISA
Cirrus Logic 3xxx Series 1 MB ISA
ATI Mach64 256-GVT 2 MB PCI
ATI Video Expression 4 MB PCI
Diamond Monster 3D 4 MB PCI
ATI Xpert@Play 98 8 MB PCI
Diamond V550 Riva TNT 16 MB
3DFX Voodoo 3 3000 16 MB AGP
ATI Rage 128 Pro 16 MB AGP
A-Trend Riva TNT2 M64 32 MB
Diamond V770 Riva TNT2 Ultra 32 MB
Creative Labs Annihilator GeForce 256 SDR 32 MB
Creative Labs Annihilator Pro GeForce 256 DDR 32 MB
ATI Rage Fury MAXX 64 MB
3DFX Voodoo 5 5500 64 MB
Hercules 3D Prophet II GTS 32 MB DDR (NV15)
3DFX Voodoo 5 6000 128 MB (this was a BEAST of a card)
Hercules 3D Prophet II Ultra 64 MB DDR (NV15)
Hercules 3D Prophet III 64 MB DDR (NV20)
Matrox Parhelia 512 128 MB (I think it was 128 MB's) <-- horrendous 3D performance
Hercules 3D Prophet III Ti500 64 MB DDR (NV20-Ti500)
ATI Radeon 8500 DV 64 MB DDR
Asus V8440 GeForce 4 Ti4400 128 MB DDR
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro 128 MB DDR
BFG Asylum GeForce FX 5800 Ultra (yes, the dustbuster)
ATI Radeon 9800 128 MB DDR
ATI Radeon 9800 BIOS modded to 9800 Pro 128 MB DDR <-- I'm on this one right now.
BFG Asylum GeForce FX 5900 Ultra 256 MB DDR
NEW MATH????????
Ya want to know something?
I liked it here until it became a ****ing witch hunt because I DON"T like what you THINK I should...I'll go back to the forums I normally hang at and reset my F@H team to a better class of loser (Max pc is #7 anyways) and y'all can go take a flying leap at yourselves!!!
My mistake on the 35%... I had the 2 pricing structures mixed up (when you bought and when I bought).
It's your choice whether you wish to remain a member of this community. It would be sad to see SM lose a member, but if that's what you wish to do, then take care over @ Maximum PC.
It isn't a witch-hunt. It's a logical and would-be civilized debate over the objective performance of the two existing DX9 platforms.
I also said that I was happy with my card and stated the reasons why I was but I kept being hammered about using a technically inferior card and I got tired of it and remain so.
If I'm happy sitting naked on an iceberg I should be allowed to do so without someone trying to dress me...just as if you're happy in your fur parkas I'm not going to try to get you to strip down and join me in freezing my butt off...I make my choices so let me enjoy them. You make your choices and enjoy them at your happiness and I'll let you without trying to tell you why you're wrong. (not that I'm saying you are wrong, just making a point)
I'm not trying to convert anyone to Nvidia, I'm just fed up with people that don't use Nvidia cards jumping on a bandwagon without ever judging from experience...I went with the card that I like better by my own experiences and by it meeting what was the criteria I needed to see met not because someone else said it was better or worse than what else was out there.
Every component in my case was picked in that same manner and if I had it to do all over again I'd make the same choices save the Motherboard and the one I'd choose now was just vaporware when I bought the stuff I have now...I would have bought it in the first place but I didn't feel like waiting for it to be released so I went with choice number 2.
Go through the entire thread and re-read every last word. With an unbiased opinion think of which statements have degraded this thread. See which statements seem to have a fanboy mentality. See which statements seem to be close-minded.
Simguy and Thrax did a wonderful job of explaining the technical reasons of why ATi's DX9 cards are a more intelligent 3d choice, while you simply digressed and spoke of how you like the feel and stability of the nvidia based cards.
No one is out to get you or your lovely Nvidia. No one is attacking Nvidia, it's not a witch hunt, all of us want to see Nvidia release good cards, but we are not going to continute praising them blindly when they make a poor decision.
Seriously think about what you have said in this thread. Consider that perhaps you are the one acting a little immature and not being reasonable.
Al
I defended my decision to purchase what I wanted to purchase and I'm not really interested in writing a white paper or reading one either.
Thrax stated earlier that from the 8500 on ATI has beaten Nvidia at every turn and I disagree and SimGuy earlier had stated that after the release of the GF4 TI series of cards that ATI was no longer leading the fray until they re-wrote the rulebook by delivering a great card in the 9700...I agree with him.
All the ATI cards from that point on have been great cards that deliver excellent performance and sheer raw visual splendor but what I keep saying is that the Nvidia cards aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be and are in fact viable alternatives to an ATI if you are so inclined to spend your money on one.
I hope that in the future Nvidia does release a new chip that properly utilizes the Dx9 pipeline as it's written by Microsoft .
That said I still see the post's that were made earlier as being made in order to try to make me consider that I'd made a mistake in purchasing my card and that's what made me mad.
I bought my card because it's what I wanted to buy. It's as simple as that and I'm not going to appologize for my decision to send my money to Nvidia even if it's not as good a card as the 9800pro or XT.
I knew it wasn't when I bought it.
No matter if you or anyone else feels that I'm an idiot for buying it based on asthetic reasons or because the moon was in the right phase of eclipse the day I bought it the fact remains that I did it for what I feel are valid reasons and all the way through this thread I've stood by my guns.
As I said earlier I made my choices after compairing both graphics sets in action and decided the pro's and con's based on what I felt were good for me...is that a fanboy attitude?
This is a fanboy attitude. Getting pissed off and acting like a little kid. Keep in mind this is coming from a 15 year old.
We do have the right to state why the 9800 Pro is a better choice over the 5900U. That is what has been done. I respect your decision and realize that you made it based on previous experiences. I am not calling you a fan boy for that. I am calling you a fanboy for the way you acted in the post quoted above.
All that has been presented from Thrax and Simguy is technical logic. They may have questioned your purchase and they are entitled to that. This is a computer hardware forum where debates often occur.
Everyone questions everyone's purchases it's human nature. We are inclined to do so. You explained your point and Thrax and Simguy explained their's. Everyone's allowed that, they did it in a logical manner, but for the sake of this thread being educational please try and keep it civilized.
No, what I actually said was:
The 8500 ended up being superior to the TI500 in DirectX applications, and inferior to the TI500 at OpenGL applications. I then went on to <i>objectively</i> illustrate the large rift between ATI and nVidia cards. The GeForce4 was an in-between model with no direct competitor from ATI, as there was a gap between the 8500 and the 9700 Pro where nVidia produced a generation that ATI did not.
After the introduction of the Radeon 9700 Pro, ATI has produced a card that is objectively superior to every directly-competing model from nVidia.
9700 Pro v. 5800 Ultra
9800 Pro v. 5900 Ultra
9600 XT v. 5950
9600 XT v. 5700 Ultra
9600 Pro v. 9600 Pro
Etcetera.
That is what I said, and it is factually suppported. Please don't put words in my mouth.
?