XP to Linux... Advice please :D

HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
edited October 2007 in Science & Tech
Hello again :D
I've had it with XP. It's just been phail after phail after phail. I want something lighter, safer and different. I was thinking about Ubuntu - How much different is it? Would you reccomend it? And if not why not? If you have any other suggested Linux based OS's then I'd like to hear about them. Thanks again, happy surfing.
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Comments

  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    You seem like a gamer. WoW runs okay on Linux, but if you're in it for other games, Linux isn't for you.

    Ubuntu is a fine distro, however. On the surface, Linux and windows are pretty similar these days (Especially Ubuntu), but back-end work is wildly different.
  • kryystkryyst Ontario, Canada
    edited October 2007
    Thrax nailed the key. If you are a gamer stick with windows. It's a simple as that. You can, with effort get some windows games to run in linux, but it's usually the exception and not the rule. I love linux for day to day stuff (not as much as my mac but anyway) however when it comes to games I have a windows partition just for that.

    Linux is also not lighter. It is often more stable, but you can break linux just as easily as you can windows, more so if you aren't sure of what you are doing.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    kryyst wrote:
    Linux is also not lighter. It is often more stable, but you can break linux just as easily as you can windows, more so if you aren't sure of what you are doing.
    Linux is as light or as heavy as you want it to be though every newbie-friendly distro these days assumes you have a reasonably modern PC. You can break Linux fairly easily though IMO it takes more effort than Windows, also IMO it is much easier to fix.

    At any rate, give a LiveCD distro like Knoppix a whirl before you commit.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • ThelemechThelemech Victoria Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    I find Ubuntu very user friendly ...especially gravitating from XP or Mac Os .. and Suse Linux was great fun around 4-5 years ago ; I do not know it well now.
  • HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    I heard with an application called Wine you can get any application compatible with Windows compatible with Linux. Trouble is, my Windows OS has been really unreliable, I need to keep formatting the HDD, whether that's Windows' fault or not I don't know, but so far just about every time I've used XP I've had BSODs, crashes, lag, you name it. But when I used my Vista trial for two weeks I had nothing wrong. In any case I need to format my OS partition anyway at the moment, so it's worth giving Linux a try ,no?
  • kryystkryyst Ontario, Canada
    edited October 2007
    drasnor wrote:
    Linux is as light or as heavy as you want it to be though every newbie-friendly distro these days assumes you have a reasonably modern PC. You can break Linux fairly easily though IMO it takes more effort than Windows, also IMO it is much easier to fix.

    At any rate, give a LiveCD distro like Knoppix a whirl before you commit.

    -drasnor :fold:

    Spoken like someone who knows linux. Stick a linux machine infront of someone who doesn't know it and it's easy to break, and impossible to fix, without seriously scrounging help files. If your target audience doesn't even understand that in linux cd / = windows cd\ and that cd/ won't even work also cd.. won't work you have to cd .. huge hurdle should something break. An average windows user with no linux experience would find linux crippling if they had to go and fix anything.

    As for modern distributions they aren't by any means light if we are talking about your generic home distro's like Ubuntu, Suse, Redhat etc.... They are all very full featured and though they run better then windows are by no means light.
  • HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    Here's how I see it:
    --XP--
    -Repeatedly crashing
    -Always having to reformat due to system lag
    -Alot more open to hacks/viruses
    -No compatibility issues with games
    -More applications
    -Easy to Use

    --Linux--
    -Easily breakable (willing to learn how to not break it)
    -Alot more secure
    -Not so good for gaming (Can be fixed with Wine)
    -HDD is going to be wiped anyway, and my applications are on another partition, so it's not much hassle with reinstalling if I have to
  • kryystkryyst Ontario, Canada
    edited October 2007
    Harudath wrote:
    I heard with an application called Wine you can get any application compatible with Windows compatible with Linux. Trouble is, my Windows OS has been really unreliable, I need to keep formatting the HDD, whether that's Windows' fault or not I don't know, but so far just about every time I've used XP I've had BSODs, crashes, lag, you name it. But when I used my Vista trial for two weeks I had nothing wrong. In any case I need to format my OS partition anyway at the moment, so it's worth giving Linux a try ,no?

    Wine works ok. It's generally better at running windows applications inside of linux. It's less compatible when it comes to running games. For games the big crippling factor is Directx which has Zero support in linux. Wine has some limited access to Directx functions and will run some older games ok. But most newer games forget about it.

    Before I continue. Let me clarify a few things. I know linux well, what I don't know I can google for information, I know it as well as I know Windows or OS X. I'm also a firm supporter of linux and actively promote it when I think it's worth promoting. It's a very strong OS with very strong features. It is however not a direct replacement for Windows, in the same way that OS X is not a direct replacement for windows.

    So if you want to own a computer that works like windows and allows you the exact same functionality as windows with the exact same ease of software installation, especially when it comes to games. STICK TO WINDOWS. Windows does have more security holes then most other OS's it does often go wonky more quickly then other OS's. It is however still has the lion's share of the market and if you like to be able to go to your local store and buy (or however you acquire software) pretty much any program you want and know that it'll work then stick to windows.

    I would strongly suggest that if you are at all interested in linux to acquire a linux Live CD Ubuntu Live can be acquired from Here. Download it and burn it onto a cd. Then boot your computer off the cd. It will run linux from the CD and not install anything. Play around with it (keep in mind it is running off the CD so things are noticeably slower in some aspects, certainly load times) and check it out. It's a full complete system, with many tools. Check it out and if you think it's something you like click the 'install' button from the desktop and you'll be up and running after answering a few simple questions.

    Just remember though regardless of wine or virtual machines or anything else Windows = Games Linux = Applications.
  • HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    Okay, I'll try that. Thanks for the help guys :D
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    kryyst wrote:
    Spoken like someone who knows linux. Stick a linux machine infront of someone who doesn't know it and it's easy to break, and impossible to fix, without seriously scrounging help files. ... An average windows user with no linux experience would find linux crippling if they had to go and fix anything.
    Be honest, the average Windows user would be crippled if anything went wrong with Windows. Also, your point holds true for any kind of user that's only known one OS (for instance, a girl I know was raised in SuSE but had to learn Windows to function at school. It took some time.) At least running Linux you're not limited on the number of times you can reinstall the OS without having to justify yourself to Big Brother. As someone that's broken OS X a few times due to bad drivers I found the situation impossible to fix and had to reinstall the OS.

    Harudath is obviously not the average user because he's on our forum, has indicated that he's heard of Linux before, and is interested in trying it. Certain assumptions can now be made like that he is at least somewhat technically inclined and is willing to ask questions and learn how to do the things that are suggested. I would not attempt to pitch Linux to the rest of my family unless they showed interest first. Also, Google has served me well in finding solutions to problems on Linux that are easy to follow and ALWAYS work, quite unlike Googling for a BSoD stop code that may or may not provide any usfeul information. One of the biggest strengths of the Linux platform in my opinion is that it almost always tells you what's wrong with it. Reading Linux logs is generally much more instructive than reading Windows logs.
    kryyst wrote:
    Wine works ok. It's generally better at running windows applications inside of linux. It's less compatible when it comes to running games. For games the big crippling factor is Directx which has Zero support in linux. Wine has some limited access to Directx functions and will run some older games ok. But most newer games forget about it.
    I'm going to call :bs: on this FUD. It was true 5 years ago but not anymore. Wine has full DirectX support through DirectX 8 and at least working DirectX 9 support, enough to run the HL2 Source engine among others. What I've encountered is that the games that don't work usually have obtuse anti-cheating measures built-in that don't like not being able to find a Windows install. It would probably be a good idea for you to look up any Windows softwares you want to run in the Wine AppDB. Also worth noting is how many recent games are in the Platinum and Gold compatibility categories; anything in there will give you no trouble. Also worth noting is that games released by Id and Epic are fully Linux-native and don't require Wine to function.
    kryyst wrote:
    Check it out and if you think it's something you like click the 'install' button from the desktop and you'll be up and running after answering a few simple questions.
    Do this only after you have seriously considered whether or not you like anything that's on that hard drive. Your drive will get re-partitioned and formatted.
    kryyst wrote:
    Just remember though regardless of wine or virtual machines or anything else Windows = Games Linux = Applications.
    Err... no. :bs: Even the stock games that ship with GNOME are better than the Windows built-in games. Honestly, built-in Sudoku and Mahjongg vs. Solitaire? Matter of preference I suppose.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    Aye, I have friends that have got WoW working on Linux using Wine, and that game folder takes up about 9GB, so I think it'll work with anything smaller than that xD

    I feel like trying something new, and from the research I've done Linux seems alot more flexible and professional, true or not I'm loving the look of the visual styles and all the stuff ye can do with it. I usually learn quickly when it comes to this stuff, and if switching to Linux saves me all these cruddy Windows bugs/crashes/pleh then I don't see why not :P.

    I will definately be trying the Ubuntu Live feature and making a decision from that, but from what I've seen I'm pretty sure I'll stick with a Linux OS :D
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    I'm going to say something, and I hope you understand that I'm not trying to be mean, or spiteful when I say this. Here goes..

    You've had nothing but issues with Windows XP. Format after format, time after time, again and again. While Windows <i>can</i> break out of its own cruel will, it does <i>not</i> break so repetitively and drastically as your installs have. For example, my installs have ever been cripplingly broken twice (NTLDR errors) in 10+ years of power-using Windows. This leads me to wonder:

    1) Do you have faulty hardware?
    2) Or is it something you're doing wrong?

    Switching to Linux isn't a magic bullet if your problems are seemingly systemic.
  • GrayFoxGrayFox /dev/urandom Member
    edited October 2007
    kryyst wrote:
    Linux is also not lighter. It is often more stable, but you can break linux just as easily as you can windows, more so if you aren't sure of what you are doing.

    Linux is as light as you want it to be.

    Also please don't down right lie, Unless the user is root they can't break anything badly. A intelligent user will not go around as root breaking things. They will only be root when needed.

    kryyst wrote:
    Wine works ok. It's generally better at running windows applications inside of linux. It's less compatible when it comes to running games. For games the big crippling factor is Directx which has Zero support in linux. Wine has some limited access to Diand rectx functions and will run some older games ok. But most newer games forget about it.

    Before I continue. Let me clarify a few things. I know linux well, what I don't know I can google for information, I know it as well as I know Windows or OS X. I'm also a firm supporter of linux and actively promote it when I think it's worth promoting. It's a very strong OS with very strong features. It is however not a direct replacement for Windows, in the same way that OS X is not a direct replacement for windows.

    So if you want to own a computer that works like windows and allows you the exact same functionality as windows with the exact same ease of software installation, especially when it comes to games. STICK TO WINDOWS. Windows does have more security holes then most other OS's it does often go wonky more quickly then other OS's. It is however still has the lion's share of the market and if you like to be able to go to your local store and buy (or however you acquire software) pretty much any program you want and know that it'll work then stick to windows.

    Just remember though regardless of wine or virtual machines or anything else Windows = Games Linux = Applications.

    Way too much FUD in your post. Please get off my internet's and try again.

    The only problem with wine is that you will spend a long time taking dll's and fonts from windows boxes to get applications working properly.

    On a side note Harudath's problems are probably caused by whats in between his keyboard and chair assuming his hardware is good. Linux would solve this .. if he never becomes root or uses sudo, Same with mac os.
  • HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    To be honest I'm beginning to doubt the hardware, but I'm slowly saving to replace them anyway... donations accepted haha. My CD drive is broken - it can't see or write on blank/used CD/DVD RW disks. And my system is perfectly capable of playing WoW at 30 fps in raids during a fight, yet I have to face a wall at min settings with nothing else open to be able to get 3-10. My HDD is small, and I'd like to upgrade to a larger faster one. The Mobo and Processor are being sorted. Anything else that could be causing a problem that I'm not eventually replacing? :P

    I don't have high hopes that Linux will totally solve the problems, but I hope that it will at least help it prevent more from occuring.

    And I think it was just stating a worse case scenario that a Linux noob is likely to do, it was off putting, but more a word of severe warning than telling me it will definately happen. Better to be warned with over-exaggerated information than saying everything will be fine then coming back a week later with "wtf happened?"
  • kryystkryyst Ontario, Canada
    edited October 2007
    drasnor wrote:
    Be honest, the average Windows user would be crippled if anything went wrong with Windows. Also, your point holds true for any kind of user that's only known one OS (for instance, a girl I know was raised in SuSE but had to learn Windows to function at school. It took some time.) At least running Linux you're not limited on the number of times you can reinstall the OS without having to justify yourself to Big Brother. As someone that's broken OS X a few times due to bad drivers I found the situation impossible to fix and had to reinstall the OS.

    True, but it's easier to recover from a broken windows install for an average user, pop in the disk repair install good to go. That's the sort of advice we hand out all the time around here. Linux, seldom is it that simple. There are many more variables involved when it comes to linux. The fact that there are still driver issues alone in linux for many common devices such as video cards at certain resolutions and wireless devices and even some newer mobo's won't work at all is enough to throw a serious wrench in a new linux user that doesn't know where to look and without understanding what to look for it's almost impossible. Windows on the other hand almost every device works out of the box or at least comes with windows drivers. I'm sure you can find some exceptions to make a point if you want but they are extreme exceptions.

    I agree it's true that one user who knows one system will find another system awkward - so what's your point. This topic is about a Windows users asking about Linux.
    Harudath is obviously not the average user because he's on our forum, has indicated that he's heard of Linux before, and is interested in trying it. Certain assumptions can now be made like that he is at least somewhat technically inclined and is willing to ask questions and learn how to do the things that are suggested. I would not attempt to pitch Linux to the rest of my family unless they showed interest first. Also, Google has served me well in finding solutions to problems on Linux that are easy to follow and ALWAYS work, quite unlike Googling for a BSoD stop code that may or may not provide any usfeul information. One of the biggest strengths of the Linux platform in my opinion is that it almost always tells you what's wrong with it. Reading Linux logs is generally much more instructive than reading Windows logs.

    That's a hell of an assumption. I can't even decide where to pick apart that logic. So I'll start at the beginning. Being on this forum, no offence to anyone here but doesn't mean you are an above average user. Just means you googled something and stuck around. Interest in trying linux does not in anyway imply knowledge of linux. The Internet is full of forums and topics about people that wonder why they can't just run Program X on linux, or OS X or Windows regardless of what system that program is designed for. Case in point here, Harudath came into this conversation thinking Wine = Windows on linux. It's not, not by a long shot. Further more the questions he was asking are very rudimentary and not of any insight into the difference of linux. It doesn't show any understanding of linux or the differences in. Have someone take his computer wipe it and install linux for him. He'll be back with 100 more questions on why this or that doesn't work. That's all well and good, it's a great way to learn. But it's also the primary reason why the majority of people stop using linux. They expect it to work like Windows only Different. Linux is not Windows only different. Linux is a completely different OS and should not be pushed as a Windows Alternative. Linux is not the Coke version of Windows Pepsi. Completely different beast.
    I'm going to call :bs: on this FUD. It was true 5 years ago but not anymore. Wine has full DirectX support through DirectX 8 and at least working DirectX 9 support, enough to run the HL2 Source engine among others.
    Sure you can run some newer games under wine by regressing them to run under Dx8 or worse. None of them are a case of just poping in the disk clicking setup and running it. Want a refresher on how to get Half Life 2 running under ubuntu?

    This is the if you are lucky version
    This is the long version if you aren't lucky

    Neither of which are simple or common sense if you've never used linux before. They also are making assumptions that you've got wine fully configured correctly ahead of time, which can be a big assumption. But again we are talking about some games working on Wine. There are many games that won't work. That's the reality. You can get some windows games running under linux, but it no way is that the rule it's always the exception.
    What I've encountered is that the games that don't work usually have obtuse anti-cheating measures built-in that don't like not being able to find a Windows install.[/url] Doesn't have to be that obtuse. The anti-cheating methods are only part of it. Most won't work simply as a result of linux/wine not supporting whatever routines the games are trying to run.
    It would probably be a good idea for you to look up any Windows softwares you want to run in the Wine AppDB.
    Excellent suggestion notice 246 apps have a gold start, that's apps not limited to games. Wine is handy but not a substitute for windows and especially not when it comes to games.
    Err... no. :bs: Even the stock games that ship with GNOME are better than the Windows built-in games. Honestly, built-in Sudoku and Mahjongg vs. Solitaire? Matter of preference I suppose.

    -drasnor :fold:

    You miss the point entirely.
  • kryystkryyst Ontario, Canada
    edited October 2007
    GrayFox wrote:
    Linux is as light as you want it to be.

    Also please don't down right lie, Unless the user is root they can't break anything badly. A intelligent user will not go around as root breaking things. They will only be root when needed.

    Depends on the version of linux, depends on what you consider break. I've had to deal with plenty of linux installations that broke because someone picked the wrong screen resolution and couldn't get out of it because it defaulted to 640x480 and the ok/cancel prompts went off the screen. The only way to fix it is to go into shell, edit settings manual etc.... Simple things can break it. I'm not suggesting that a user can utterly destroy their system with the accidental wrong click of a button. But make it temporarily unusable certainly.

    But lets skip ahead a little. Ubuntu for example, my favorite distro loves sudo. Your default username is also the sudo rights holder. So you are getting adventurous and trying to set something up in shell. You are sudoing here and there working in VI or another editor save the wrong command and it's broken. Sure it's usually a simple fix, if you know what you were doing in the first place. But not always and when users with no understanding of what they are doing are blindly following a how-to the wrong syntax can mess a system up entirely.

    This is also true of any OS. But a comfort and understanding of windows doesn't translate to linux.
  • kryystkryyst Ontario, Canada
    edited October 2007
    GrayFox wrote:
    Way too much FUD in your post. Please get off my internet's and try again.

    The only problem with wine is that you will spend a long time taking dll's and fonts from windows boxes to get applications working properly.

    Ummm yep, that's pretty much exactly what I'm addressing here. Running most newer games under wine require work if they'll even run at all. Wine does however run most standard applications pretty well and if not there are fortunately linux alternatives for many of them. Again linux performs much better as an application driving OS then as a Game machine. To think anything else is to be delusional.
    On a side note Harudath's problems are probably caused by whats in between his keyboard and chair assuming his hardware is good. Linux would solve this .. if he never becomes root or uses sudo, Same with mac os.

    I agree. But as he also mentioned he installed Vista and that cleared up the problem also.
  • HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    Well, when I started the thread I didn't pretend to have any knowledge of Linux compared to Windows, that's the point - I wanted to know about it before I changed anything. I asked how different is it, in what way and would you reccomend it or not? I'm not a PC noob, but when it comes to the advanced stuff you Icrontians are talking about I am a beginner, but I am here to LEARN from you guys, so I can do the same thing and eventually help other people too.

    I did think Wine was basically a windows apps on Linux too, I'll admit it. But now I know that it isn't, and the more I understand about this the better I'll be able to make a decision when it comes to the time when I want to decide: Windows or Linux?
  • kryystkryyst Ontario, Canada
    edited October 2007
    Harudath wrote:
    To be honest I'm beginning to doubt the hardware, but I'm slowly saving to replace them anyway... donations accepted haha. My CD drive is broken - it can't see or write on blank/used CD/DVD RW disks. And my system is perfectly capable of playing WoW at 30 fps in raids during a fight, yet I have to face a wall at min settings with nothing else open to be able to get 3-10. My HDD is small, and I'd like to upgrade to a larger faster one. The Mobo and Processor are being sorted. Anything else that could be causing a problem that I'm not eventually replacing? :P

    I don't have high hopes that Linux will totally solve the problems, but I hope that it will at least help it prevent more from occuring.

    And I think it was just stating a worse case scenario that a Linux noob is likely to do, it was off putting, but more a word of severe warning than telling me it will definately happen. Better to be warned with over-exaggerated information than saying everything will be fine then coming back a week later with "wtf happened?"

    Bingo. As I said I love linux. But there are way to many people that say 'Oh Yeah Switch to Linux and all your problems will go away' it's a bs line that gets passed around far to freely and often. It's a falsehood that can often lead to many, many more problems.

    I highly support and encourage you to check out linux. But check it out and know what your getting into, live cd's are fantastic. Just be informed first and understand that what you currently find simple to do and take for granted in windows is not necessarily the case in Linux. This is especially true when it comes to off the shelf software.
  • edited October 2007
    I just recently converted (dual boot, hotswap HD's) to Ubuntu 7.10 and I found it very interesting so far. Everything installed as it should and all my HW worked properly the first time around. I did do a fair amount of testing with different Live CD distros at first and then took the jump to installing the complete distro. I will be keeping the dual boot setup as I do game a fair amount, but for day to day ops, you can't beat Linux, at least so far anyways.............;)
  • ThelemechThelemech Victoria Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    I 'm no expert... but I am no fool or noob either; I would put forward that Ubuntu is ridiculously easy to learn, even with a beginners knowledge. Being a power user on either Windows or Linux takes skill. That comes with knowledge, use and time. I think you will enjoy learning the intricacies of Linux and the only real stumbling blocks are the Terminal(command line) and getting Wine to work in my experience.
  • HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    Okay, cool. I'll be trying an Ubuntu Live disk as of wednesday, so I'll be able to tell you guys how it goes once that's been done :P
  • floppybootstompfloppybootstomp Greenwich New
    edited October 2007
    Best thing to do, imo, is try a few live CD's.

    I think it's easier to cripple a Linux Distro than it is Windows, tbh. Many's a time I've messed in the Konsole only to have the thing not boot (LMAO)

    I've been using PC Linux OS 2007 for a couple of months now, slowly getting to know it, have been using it a fair bit for Office, Graphics (Gimp) and Net surfing.

    I like this Distro, many others do not, it's all a question of taste, I suppose.

    I also used Suse 10.1 for a while, that looked pretty but imo it was bloated and having to source all the codecs for media playback was a pain.
  • HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    Hmm, I downloaded it, put it on a disk, put the disk in and voila... nothing happened when I rebooted it, no option to boot from a CD, nothing. I looked at the file type and it was an .iso... What the hell do I do with it? :P
  • kryystkryyst Ontario, Canada
    edited October 2007
    A .iso is a type of image format. You need to burn it as an image. From whatever cd burning software you are using you have to usually go into the special options to get to this feature. If you just make a standard file cd and burn the .iso to the cd you'll now end up with a cd with a .iso file on it, which is useless.

    So some where in your cd burning software there will be the ability to burn a cd image to disk. Then you tell it the image you are burning is .iso (there are various formates of disk images but .iso is the generic standard). It will then take that .iso image and burn it's contents to the cd making a copy of the original that the .iso is made from.

    It's that cd that you then need to boot your system with.
  • HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    Hmm, I use Nero. So I need to turn the .iso into an image?
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    Go to recorder -> burn image.

    The iso <i>is</i> the image.
  • kryystkryyst Ontario, Canada
    edited October 2007
  • HarudathHarudath Great Britain Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    the .iso is ON the disk already, I just dunno what to do with it. Or am I completely misunderstanding again? I'm tired and this is a new thing for me, go easy on me :P
  • ThelemechThelemech Victoria Icrontian
    edited October 2007
    You could ask for them to ship it :bigggrin:
    http://shipit.ubuntu.com/
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