My point is I think some of the tools people in bodybuilding use are often allocated to improper uses by others. Not saying thats what you're doing but I see it a lot, some here, some in other places. I wouldn't recommend carb cycling as a weight loss technique. Thats not a bad short term way to cut bodyfat but its more effective when say yer a pretty big kid and prepping for a competition 6-8 weeks out. Not at the start of a journey back to fitness levels of days past. Its too hard to maintain for any length of time and the progress is fairly quickly achieved and difficult to maintain.
My point was there's a growing trend in this country when one wants to shape up or drop unwanted pounds to just start cutting out carbohydrates like everybody was afraid of fat years ago. In reality you need them all in the proper balance to function well. I maintain many people would be amazed how much food they could eat, including fairly healthy doses of carbohydrates, and still drop bodyfat...if the calories come from the right places.
Then we disagree. I maintain people consume bullshit without knowledge of what it does to their body, which is more dangerous that doing swiss ball crunches.
I was thinking more along the lines of newbies doing high rep sets and endurance cardio while ketonic, which is just awful and so many people think that more exercise equates to more fat loss. In point of fact, you actually want to do FAR LESS while on a caloric deficit -- especially a severely restricted ketonic diet. Not less intensity; just less quantity.
I think we can both agree that Swiss ball crunches are harmless. Going into the gym in a ketonic state and doing 36 reps of 3 different chest exercises, on the other hand, is not.
If RADA has trained West Side and understands the intensity/rep/set dynamics and the effects that his diet will have on his ability to recover and train, then maybe I was just misunderstanding the situation and some of my advice was overstated as a result.
RADA:
I apologize if I've offended you by downplaying your experience. It was purely out of caution -- I've seen a lot of people do themselves (And their goals) harm in the gym.
I'm surprised, though, that with such training experience you would opt to start off a new program with ketosis after coming off a long layoff. While that may drop the weight fast, it makes it much harder to start building strength again as the body typically takes 1-2 months or more to fully recover its normal metabolism. If you're willing to delay the fat loss by a few months, you could maintain better strength and muscle mass with a more conservative approach. But that's the last I will harp on that point.
Is Rippetoes a 5x5 oriented around the big three? Can't get to BB.com. My favorite routines are generally 5x5/WS hybrids with every other week or every third week being a WS week. I find it more sustainable than straight WS with my body type. I carry a lot of muscle but my upper body bone structure is relatively thin. Maxing bench every week taxes my joints like crazy to the point where my arms aren't usable and I end up sidelined with wrist and elbow ligament strains.
WS yields undeniable results, though. When I made the switch from straight 5x5 to WS both my x12 sets and max presses shot up around 45-55 pounds within a few weeks. Within two months I was pressing my previous max for 12 reps on light effort days. Gotta love it.
Is Rippetoes a 5x5 oriented around the big three? Can't get to BB.com. My favorite routines are generally 5x5/WS hybrids with every other week or every third week being a WS week. I find it more sustainable than straight WS with my body type. I carry a lot of muscle but my upper body bone structure is relatively thin. Maxing bench every week taxes my joints like crazy to the point where my arms aren't usable and I end up sidelined with wrist and elbow ligament strains.
WS yields undeniable results, though. When I made the switch from straight 5x5 to WS both my x12 sets and max presses shot up around 45-55 pounds within a few weeks. Within two months I was pressing my previous max for 12 reps on light effort days. Gotta love it.
Rippetoes is 5x3 of working weight, not block pyramids like Bill Starr.
Workout A:
Squat: 5x3
Bench: 5x3
DL: 5x3
Workout B:
Squat: 5x3
Mil Press: 5x3
Rows/Cleans: 5x3
Week 1:
A
B
A
Week 2:
B
A
B
Week 3:
A
B
A
etc.
And if you suddenly started doing 40-50 more pounds on your bench or whatever in just two weeks, you were not pushing yourself at all before hand. That's mental, not physical, or you were in beginning stages with some exercises.
And if you suddenly started doing 40-50 more pounds on your bench or whatever in just two weeks, you were not pushing yourself at all before hand. That's mental, not physical, or you were in beginning stages with some exercises.
This is true.
I put a little more thought into it yesterday on my way home from work, and my jump was more like 30 pounds (215-245). I had been seriously lifting for only about 3 months back then (Although I lifted off and on since high school), so there was definitely a beginner-gains/newbie-gains aspect as well since I was in the midst of truly learning how to train.
The reason for it was quite simple: I had never trained properly for max intensity. Switching to WS for two weeks, I was doing x3, x2, x2, x1, x1 on bench instead of 5x5. It had a very dramatic effect on my max press, but it's not really a fair comparison when my previous max bench numbers were typically attained after doing x5, x5, x5, x4, x3, x1.
When I was lifting in high school they emphasized 12 rep sets because they thought it was safer for us. Basically, my high school athletic trainers were idiots and unfortunately their misinformation stuck with me until I got serious about training later in life.
WS simply opened the door to greater intensity. It wasn't for lack of effort prior to that. I was training wrong for my goals.
The interesting thing is that training WS-style for max intensity also makes it much easier to improve muscular endurance. Max effort helps build mass... Light effort helps develop endurance. They have a very synergistic effect regardless of whether the end goal is to press 12 reps for max weight or 1 rep.
All this talk of lifting really makes me want to stop being a lazy bum. I've been on a 1.5 year layoff now after my family life just went to complete shit and I got distracted by things. But not yet.
And as an aside, I've chosen pressing as the example, but the same things can be said for squats and deadlifts, which are more important exercises anyway. Since you guys love to pick apart what I say about training, I figured I'd toss that in there. I did not see such a dramatic improvement in either my squat or deadlift from WS training, though. I was already doing 3 rep sets at most and far more singles than I had been on the bench.
I'm not attacking, merely debating. Having competed in weightlifting before, run races, and been through ketosis I felt I should add my two cents.
Well, likewise. I've been trying to keep it constructive and bear in mind the philosophical statement that I wrote down my arm.
By no means do I know all there is to know about training, nutrition, 'enhancement' or any other topic of fitness discussion... But I've been down a lot of different paths at this point, including making the mistake of starting off a serious training program with ketosis after years of not lifting. It's hard to stay quiet about this stuff when I've developed such a passion for it and when my life more or less revolved around powerlifting for a few years until things fell apart for me. Everything I studied, ate, and thought was geared towards one singular, unattainable goal... The infinite quest to move more. One day I'll resume that. Until then, I'm pretty satisfied with being a softy. /grin
Edit:
Until then, I'm pretty satisfied with being a softy.
Alright, so this was a complete and utter lie. But one thing at a time.
I understand where your coming from and have taken no offense to anything anyone has said.
I've tested myself every other day since starting and have never actually gone into a true state of ketosis. My strips show pink (Negative) to a dusty rose(Mild), never had a purple (Positive) reading.
I apologize if I've offended you by downplaying your experience. It was purely out of caution -- I've seen a lot of people do themselves (And their goals) harm in the gym.
I'm surprised, though, that with such training experience you would opt to start off a new program with ketosis after coming off a long layoff. While that may drop the weight fast, it makes it much harder to start building strength again as the body typically takes 1-2 months or more to fully recover its normal metabolism. If you're willing to delay the fat loss by a few months, you could maintain better strength and muscle mass with a more conservative approach. But that's the last I will harp on that point.
Comments
Ask and ye' shall receive. It's what I recommend to basically everyone. It's what I'm currently doing again now with some small modification.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224
Hence "from the right sources" :bigggrin:
My point is I think some of the tools people in bodybuilding use are often allocated to improper uses by others. Not saying thats what you're doing but I see it a lot, some here, some in other places. I wouldn't recommend carb cycling as a weight loss technique. Thats not a bad short term way to cut bodyfat but its more effective when say yer a pretty big kid and prepping for a competition 6-8 weeks out. Not at the start of a journey back to fitness levels of days past. Its too hard to maintain for any length of time and the progress is fairly quickly achieved and difficult to maintain.
My point was there's a growing trend in this country when one wants to shape up or drop unwanted pounds to just start cutting out carbohydrates like everybody was afraid of fat years ago. In reality you need them all in the proper balance to function well. I maintain many people would be amazed how much food they could eat, including fairly healthy doses of carbohydrates, and still drop bodyfat...if the calories come from the right places.
I think we can both agree that Swiss ball crunches are harmless. Going into the gym in a ketonic state and doing 36 reps of 3 different chest exercises, on the other hand, is not.
If RADA has trained West Side and understands the intensity/rep/set dynamics and the effects that his diet will have on his ability to recover and train, then maybe I was just misunderstanding the situation and some of my advice was overstated as a result.
RADA:
I apologize if I've offended you by downplaying your experience. It was purely out of caution -- I've seen a lot of people do themselves (And their goals) harm in the gym.
I'm surprised, though, that with such training experience you would opt to start off a new program with ketosis after coming off a long layoff. While that may drop the weight fast, it makes it much harder to start building strength again as the body typically takes 1-2 months or more to fully recover its normal metabolism. If you're willing to delay the fat loss by a few months, you could maintain better strength and muscle mass with a more conservative approach. But that's the last I will harp on that point.
WS yields undeniable results, though. When I made the switch from straight 5x5 to WS both my x12 sets and max presses shot up around 45-55 pounds within a few weeks. Within two months I was pressing my previous max for 12 reps on light effort days. Gotta love it.
Rippetoes is 5x3 of working weight, not block pyramids like Bill Starr.
Workout A:
Squat: 5x3
Bench: 5x3
DL: 5x3
Workout B:
Squat: 5x3
Mil Press: 5x3
Rows/Cleans: 5x3
Week 1:
A
B
A
Week 2:
B
A
B
Week 3:
A
B
A
etc.
And if you suddenly started doing 40-50 more pounds on your bench or whatever in just two weeks, you were not pushing yourself at all before hand. That's mental, not physical, or you were in beginning stages with some exercises.
This is true.
I put a little more thought into it yesterday on my way home from work, and my jump was more like 30 pounds (215-245). I had been seriously lifting for only about 3 months back then (Although I lifted off and on since high school), so there was definitely a beginner-gains/newbie-gains aspect as well since I was in the midst of truly learning how to train.
The reason for it was quite simple: I had never trained properly for max intensity. Switching to WS for two weeks, I was doing x3, x2, x2, x1, x1 on bench instead of 5x5. It had a very dramatic effect on my max press, but it's not really a fair comparison when my previous max bench numbers were typically attained after doing x5, x5, x5, x4, x3, x1.
When I was lifting in high school they emphasized 12 rep sets because they thought it was safer for us. Basically, my high school athletic trainers were idiots and unfortunately their misinformation stuck with me until I got serious about training later in life.
WS simply opened the door to greater intensity. It wasn't for lack of effort prior to that. I was training wrong for my goals.
The interesting thing is that training WS-style for max intensity also makes it much easier to improve muscular endurance. Max effort helps build mass... Light effort helps develop endurance. They have a very synergistic effect regardless of whether the end goal is to press 12 reps for max weight or 1 rep.
All this talk of lifting really makes me want to stop being a lazy bum. I've been on a 1.5 year layoff now after my family life just went to complete shit and I got distracted by things. But not yet.
And as an aside, I've chosen pressing as the example, but the same things can be said for squats and deadlifts, which are more important exercises anyway. Since you guys love to pick apart what I say about training, I figured I'd toss that in there. I did not see such a dramatic improvement in either my squat or deadlift from WS training, though. I was already doing 3 rep sets at most and far more singles than I had been on the bench.
By no means do I know all there is to know about training, nutrition, 'enhancement' or any other topic of fitness discussion... But I've been down a lot of different paths at this point, including making the mistake of starting off a serious training program with ketosis after years of not lifting. It's hard to stay quiet about this stuff when I've developed such a passion for it and when my life more or less revolved around powerlifting for a few years until things fell apart for me. Everything I studied, ate, and thought was geared towards one singular, unattainable goal... The infinite quest to move more. One day I'll resume that. Until then, I'm pretty satisfied with being a softy. /grin
Edit: Alright, so this was a complete and utter lie. But one thing at a time.
I understand where your coming from and have taken no offense to anything anyone has said.
I've tested myself every other day since starting and have never actually gone into a true state of ketosis. My strips show pink (Negative) to a dusty rose(Mild), never had a purple (Positive) reading.