Wow! I can understand the premium people are willing to pay for workstation GPUs. When it comes to 3D art and content creation the FirePro is in a league of its own.
That's a pretty stupid article, as it does not even mention that the FirePro has special optimised drivers for those prgrams. The certified drivers are exactly what you are paying for when you buy a FirePro/Quadro. The hardware itself is the same as the reference designs for the equivalent Radeon/GeForce cards.
No, the hardware is not the same. That is where you're entirely wrong. There are chip and board-level optimizations made to FirePro cores, and driver R&D is only a small portion of the total cost. Certified hardware support, application support, and DCC app R&D plays a significantly larger portion of the overall cost.
Have the courtesy to know what the facts are before putting your fingers on the keyboard.
Intersting results. It would interesting to see how a Quadro FX 4800 compares.
Also, in the mention writeup, will it also show the V8750 running 3Mark and other "game" related benches to see the inverse side of things.
The original V8750 review includes a few game references, but nothing on a chart. Suffice it to say, the V8750 is just barely playable in Team Fortress 2. It gets stomped by the 8800 GTX.
I have a couple of FireGL and Quadro cards that are physically exactly the same as equivalent Radeons and Quadros. I looked at pictures of the reference models made by ATi and PNY and saw no difference. The article does not mention the optimised drivers which is what makes the cards so much faster. I do not see any improvement at all when using apps that do not have certified drivers (eg. ArchiCAD). I have never owned a FirePro, but from what I can see, the drivers are what the makes such a difference.
No, it doesn't mention that because we are preparing a separate article which explores and explains the differences. It's pretty silly to even talk about the drivers when the thesis question is "What happens?" not "Why is it happening?"
It's a basic case of serving the curiosities and questions of our readers.
But I can tell you, the FirePro V8750 and the Radeon HD 4870, which are both based on the RV770XT core, are not physically the same.
That's straight from ATI's mouth, and they courteously let us tape the session, which will be a part of the "Why?" article we're preparing.
Jason - if you click on the link to the original v8750 piece, it does in fact go into a little more detail on WHY the two types are different.
Re-stating it for the sake of an article that was meant to showcase performance between ultra-high-end and ultra-high-end would have been a bit needless.
@Thrax
When you say that the Radeon HD 4870 is physically different to the FirePro V8750, are you sure that you are using a reference design from ATi as comparison, and not one from a thrid party manufacturer? I look forward to this article, but I would be sceptical to what the ATi marketing department are telling you. They have to get the money to develop the drivers and would not want people to use them by softmodding.
@Bobby
In your previous article you said "PC gaming isn’t impossible on the FirePro V8750, but it certainly isn’t ideal, and it is hardly the task that this GPU was designed for.". Sorry, but this is a fail-statement. The GPU is the same, (and I still all the hardware is too). It is very expensive to develop GPUs, and they are not going to make a special version for such a limited market. It already costs a lot to develop the special drivers.
@mertesn
I had to laugh. You really cannot be that dumb.
Jason, if it was so simple as driver optimizations, why wouldn't AMD just let gamers play games on the FirePro series? They're "the same" after all, right? I mean, just tell the driver to go into "game mode" or whatever, right?
It's not so simple, my friend. Where are you getting your "facts" from?
@Bobby
In your previous article you said "PC gaming isn’t impossible on the FirePro V8750, but it certainly isn’t ideal, and it is hardly the task that this GPU was designed for.". Sorry, but this is a fail-statement. The GPU is the same, (and I still all the hardware is too).
Fail-statement? Do you realize what you just said? Even at a driver level, FirePro GPUs are STILL not designed for gaming. Trust me, ATI does not develop this hardware so people can softmod. Not to mention, a soft-modded v8750 will STILL not compare in numbers to it's desktop counterpart. Why? Because at a hardware level, like it or not, they are in fact, different.
It is very expensive to develop GPUs, and they are not going to make a special version for such a limited market. It already costs a lot to develop the special drivers.
Limited market? Are you serious? Do you even understand how many studios that are in this country, heck, in California alone, that have copious workstations for animators, modelers, artists, that are all powered by workstation GPUs? There is no 'small market' for workstation GPUs. And this hardware isn't limited to animation and VFX studios. Television studios, military, medical imaging (which is one of the biggest industries for graphics today), architecture and machining firms all rely on workstation hardware. The enthusiast GPU market is huge, but I'm willing to bet that the workstation GPU market is not far behind.
They make money. Oh, yes, they do. It makes workstation GPU development a worthy cause. Studios are replacing hardware regularly. The film industry is still seeing a boom, and studios are still sprouting up all over. They're selling units, and trust me, they have every reason to manufacture a seperate piece of hardware for this market.
Supposing the cards have major differences. Perhaps someone can volunteer their 8800 and softmod it. It would have less ram than the Quadro counterpart, but what would happen?
The discussion about hacking/modding a gaming card into a professional is so unnecessary and irrelevant. I tried softmodding before and it is so problematic that buying a professional card for professional work and gaming card for gaming is the best solution. The manufacturer will always say the hardware is different, hackers will say they are the same. Whatever is correct, softmod is never as good as the real card. Try updating your drivers and be ready for suprises in every version of the driver and software. If you are a professional whose time is really valuable, FireGL/Pro/Stream or Quadro is the only solution *PERIOD*
@primesuspect
I am an architect (just loving this recession), and have been using workstation cards for over a decade. Once I moved from using 3DLabs cards to FireGL I realised that the hardware was the same by taking the HSF off and looking at the reference designs. As a CAD consultant, I have made purchase decisions for dozens of FireGL and Quadro cards.
The workstation cards do not perform as well in games, as even with the default driver (and not the optimised ones for certain apps), the driver sacrifices frame rates for accuracy. It is okay for games to show glitches and artefacts, but not when modelling in 3D apps.
@Bobby
Of course on the driver level FirePros are not designed for gaming. GPU means Graphics Processing Unit. The RT770XT in this case. I do not want to seem condescending, but your comment does seem to make any sense unless you do not know this. Also, the GPUs are the same. They are exactly the same, and that is what essentially makes a graphics card. This is the part that is sold to other companies to make their Radeon cards. They do not make special GPUs for the workstation market. If the workstation cards differ, it is in minor areas. They used to differ in areas like the DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter - 3DLabs cards had very good DACs) but that is not so important these days.
I know that workstation cards sell in high numbers. I used to work at a firm that bought them by the hundreds, but it is still very small compared to the gaming market. I remember reading an article just about this very subject a few years ago. I think it might have been at Anandtech.
Guys, it's all about the GPUs, and it is all about the drivers. The hardware is either exactly the same, or essentially the same.
Have the courtesy to know what the facts are before putting your fingers on the keyboard.
Way to tell him what to do, you're his Mommy I take it?
Have the common sense to know that the facts are some people don't always know everything fully, unless there taught/told/or research - mind you they don't have to research a subject entirely to comment, hence the a discussion thread.
He may lack courtesy, but you the common sense.
Ignorance is shown most by the expectations of those who claim to know more then others. <topic>
/Rant
\Topic
Thank you for the wonderful and insightful last few articles you've put up, I really appreciate them. But the lingering question in my mind, even though they are not targeted at the same level, Will we be seeing a comparison of the ATI FirePro V8750 vs NVIDIA Quadro FX 5800? and if I'm not mistaken, it was mentioned that they may be a small Gaming benchmark, just for kicks?</topic>
Have the common sense to know that the facts are some people don't always know everything fully, unless there taught/told/or research - mind you they don't have to research a subject entirely to comment, hence the a discussion thread.
Defaming the content of an author's hard work based on ignorance or blatant mistruths is a pretty poor way to spur discussion or perform research.
I do, however, appreciate that you took the time to register and comment. Thank you. Seriously.
<topic>Thank you for the wonderful and insightful last few articles you've put up, I really appreciate them. But the lingering question in my mind, even though they are not targeted at the same level, Will we be seeing a comparison of the ATI FirePro V8750 vs NVIDIA Quadro FX 5800? and if I'm not mistaken, it was mentioned that they may be a small Gaming benchmark, just for kicks?</topic>
@Bobby
Of course on the driver level FirePros are not designed for gaming. GPU means Graphics Processing Unit. The RT770XT in this case. I do not want to seem condescending, but your comment does seem to make any sense unless you do not know this. Also, the GPUs are the same. They are exactly the same, and that is what essentially makes a graphics card. This is the part that is sold to other companies to make their Radeon cards. They do not make special GPUs for the workstation market. If the workstation cards differ, it is in minor areas. They used to differ in areas like the DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter - 3DLabs cards had very good DACs) but that is not so important these days.
I know that workstation cards sell in high numbers. I used to work at a firm that bought them by the hundreds, but it is still very small compared to the gaming market. I remember reading an article just about this very subject a few years ago. I think it might have been at Anandtech.
Guys, it's all about the GPUs, and it is all about the drivers. The hardware is either exactly the same, or essentially the same.
So if you've softmodded yourself, then you know that the performance is not that of an acutal Radeon with the "same" hardware.
If that was in fact true, it still wouldn't matter. Professional studios would not have time or capacity to deal with the troublesome modding, driver updates, and unreliable performance that comes from softmodding. It doesn't make sense for any professional outlet to take such a risk to cut a corner when they can buy a legitimate card that's built for them.
I'm just curious. What are the architectural differences in the hardware? Is there a good architecture blueprint for each design that explains the hardware optimizations from one to the next?
Its "fascinating" how polarizing the results are with consumer vs workstation graphics cards. I hope the writeup digs deep into both hardware and driver differences. I'm not expecting any type of schematic, but when its that drastic of a difference in performance with arguable hardware differences, flags have to be raised. I'll be patiently waiting.
If they are the same card then why doesn't one of you flash your firepro with a radeon bios, since they are the same it will work. Just sayin.
If. Which apparently, They are not psychically the same? We'll just sit tight and wait for the interview and figure out if the interviewee is telling the truth.
I'm more eager to see the FirePro up against the latest Quadro. and the gaming benchmarks against gaming/workstations as well.
I have the dream that most people in my business have, to be able to work on their 3D models and then be able to play the game there intended on for debugging and testing without the need to swap out cards or use a different machine... but then again... there would be no market in that now would there.
I think historically the workstation cards vs consumer cards have often been very similar in hardware. I remember when people were modding the drivers on consumer GPU's to "soft-quadro" their cards. It seems pretty clear that this is no longer the case, but does it really make that big of a difference in the end? nvidia and AMD are selling different products to two different markets that have been engineered and optimized to do two different things, if a lot of that is happening at a driver level then that does not illegitimatize the differences in my opinion.
I'm more eager to see the FirePro up against the latest Quadro. and the gaming benchmarks against gaming/workstations as well.
Hmmm, I have a feeling the crew has thought about that. I do think this is a very interesting comparison though because a lot of people don't understand the differences between workstation and gaming cards and performance. I find the article and the benchmarks very valuable in making the comparison.
UPSLynx
:KAPPA:Redwood City, CA Icrontian
Comments
Also, in the mention writeup, will it also show the V8750 running 3Mark and other "game" related benches to see the inverse side of things.
Have the courtesy to know what the facts are before putting your fingers on the keyboard.
The original V8750 review includes a few game references, but nothing on a chart. Suffice it to say, the V8750 is just barely playable in Team Fortress 2. It gets stomped by the 8800 GTX.
It's a basic case of serving the curiosities and questions of our readers.
But I can tell you, the FirePro V8750 and the Radeon HD 4870, which are both based on the RV770XT core, are not physically the same.
That's straight from ATI's mouth, and they courteously let us tape the session, which will be a part of the "Why?" article we're preparing.
Re-stating it for the sake of an article that was meant to showcase performance between ultra-high-end and ultra-high-end would have been a bit needless.
When you say that the Radeon HD 4870 is physically different to the FirePro V8750, are you sure that you are using a reference design from ATi as comparison, and not one from a thrid party manufacturer? I look forward to this article, but I would be sceptical to what the ATi marketing department are telling you. They have to get the money to develop the drivers and would not want people to use them by softmodding.
@Bobby
In your previous article you said "PC gaming isn’t impossible on the FirePro V8750, but it certainly isn’t ideal, and it is hardly the task that this GPU was designed for.". Sorry, but this is a fail-statement. The GPU is the same, (and I still all the hardware is too). It is very expensive to develop GPUs, and they are not going to make a special version for such a limited market. It already costs a lot to develop the special drivers.
@mertesn
I had to laugh. You really cannot be that dumb.
It's not so simple, my friend. Where are you getting your "facts" from?
Fail-statement? Do you realize what you just said? Even at a driver level, FirePro GPUs are STILL not designed for gaming. Trust me, ATI does not develop this hardware so people can softmod. Not to mention, a soft-modded v8750 will STILL not compare in numbers to it's desktop counterpart. Why? Because at a hardware level, like it or not, they are in fact, different.
Limited market? Are you serious? Do you even understand how many studios that are in this country, heck, in California alone, that have copious workstations for animators, modelers, artists, that are all powered by workstation GPUs? There is no 'small market' for workstation GPUs. And this hardware isn't limited to animation and VFX studios. Television studios, military, medical imaging (which is one of the biggest industries for graphics today), architecture and machining firms all rely on workstation hardware. The enthusiast GPU market is huge, but I'm willing to bet that the workstation GPU market is not far behind.
They make money. Oh, yes, they do. It makes workstation GPU development a worthy cause. Studios are replacing hardware regularly. The film industry is still seeing a boom, and studios are still sprouting up all over. They're selling units, and trust me, they have every reason to manufacture a seperate piece of hardware for this market.
Oh, and leave Mert alone! He's a good guy.
http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=539
The discussion about hacking/modding a gaming card into a professional is so unnecessary and irrelevant. I tried softmodding before and it is so problematic that buying a professional card for professional work and gaming card for gaming is the best solution. The manufacturer will always say the hardware is different, hackers will say they are the same. Whatever is correct, softmod is never as good as the real card. Try updating your drivers and be ready for suprises in every version of the driver and software. If you are a professional whose time is really valuable, FireGL/Pro/Stream or Quadro is the only solution *PERIOD*
I am an architect (just loving this recession), and have been using workstation cards for over a decade. Once I moved from using 3DLabs cards to FireGL I realised that the hardware was the same by taking the HSF off and looking at the reference designs. As a CAD consultant, I have made purchase decisions for dozens of FireGL and Quadro cards.
The workstation cards do not perform as well in games, as even with the default driver (and not the optimised ones for certain apps), the driver sacrifices frame rates for accuracy. It is okay for games to show glitches and artefacts, but not when modelling in 3D apps.
@Bobby
Of course on the driver level FirePros are not designed for gaming. GPU means Graphics Processing Unit. The RT770XT in this case. I do not want to seem condescending, but your comment does seem to make any sense unless you do not know this. Also, the GPUs are the same. They are exactly the same, and that is what essentially makes a graphics card. This is the part that is sold to other companies to make their Radeon cards. They do not make special GPUs for the workstation market. If the workstation cards differ, it is in minor areas. They used to differ in areas like the DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter - 3DLabs cards had very good DACs) but that is not so important these days.
I know that workstation cards sell in high numbers. I used to work at a firm that bought them by the hundreds, but it is still very small compared to the gaming market. I remember reading an article just about this very subject a few years ago. I think it might have been at Anandtech.
Guys, it's all about the GPUs, and it is all about the drivers. The hardware is either exactly the same, or essentially the same.
Way to tell him what to do, you're his Mommy I take it?
Have the common sense to know that the facts are some people don't always know everything fully, unless there taught/told/or research - mind you they don't have to research a subject entirely to comment, hence the a discussion thread.
He may lack courtesy, but you the common sense.
Ignorance is shown most by the expectations of those who claim to know more then others. <topic>
/Rant
\Topic
Thank you for the wonderful and insightful last few articles you've put up, I really appreciate them. But the lingering question in my mind, even though they are not targeted at the same level, Will we be seeing a comparison of the ATI FirePro V8750 vs NVIDIA Quadro FX 5800? and if I'm not mistaken, it was mentioned that they may be a small Gaming benchmark, just for kicks?</topic>
Defaming the content of an author's hard work based on ignorance or blatant mistruths is a pretty poor way to spur discussion or perform research.
I do, however, appreciate that you took the time to register and comment. Thank you. Seriously.
So if you've softmodded yourself, then you know that the performance is not that of an acutal Radeon with the "same" hardware.
If that was in fact true, it still wouldn't matter. Professional studios would not have time or capacity to deal with the troublesome modding, driver updates, and unreliable performance that comes from softmodding. It doesn't make sense for any professional outlet to take such a risk to cut a corner when they can buy a legitimate card that's built for them.
If. Which apparently, They are not psychically the same? We'll just sit tight and wait for the interview and figure out if the interviewee is telling the truth.
I'm more eager to see the FirePro up against the latest Quadro. and the gaming benchmarks against gaming/workstations as well.
I have the dream that most people in my business have, to be able to work on their 3D models and then be able to play the game there intended on for debugging and testing without the need to swap out cards or use a different machine... but then again... there would be no market in that now would there.
Hmmm, I have a feeling the crew has thought about that.