So what if a tosser starts out producing a ground force and his first rush on my base gets killed, then he switched to massing Void Rays? If I saw that coming, I might be inclined to have a barracks with a tech lab produce additional marines. I usually have 2 barracks, but sometimes 3 or 4.
OR, let's say I have 4 barracks. 3 with reactors and 1 with a tech lab. I want marines AND marauders. I hit the hotkey to highlight the barracks, and slam the key to make marines 20 times really fast. Then I go to hit the hotkey for marauders but the base with the tech lab is already busy making 5 marines. I have to go to that individual base, cancel the marines, and click 5 marauders.
Instead of all that back and forth, I'd just go to each one individually and place my build orders.
How can I post a link to one of my replays here? Maybe if you saw me in action you'd see what I'm doing and how quickly I do it.
That's one of the annoying things about terran. The building with a tech lab always takes precedence over the basic unit producing structure or one with a reactor if they are in the same control group (hotkey). This is why you get a queue of marines in your tech lab when you really want your barracks with a reactor to build the marines. You just have to pay attention to what you are doing when you hit the hotkeys to make sure the right buildings are building the right units. Makes terran a bit more of a PITA to play though.
If it's too much of a hassle or if you are just going for the Marine/Marauder/Medivac army composition you could just burn an additional hotkey to keep your barracks with reactors separate from those with tech labs. Another building people might find useful to hotkey as they get better is research buildings. This is especially useful for timing attacks so that you can quickly see ETA on a +1 upgrade while you are moving out your army.
Also you shouldn't be queuing so much. Try to keep it to just one unit per building. You'd be surprised how much larger your army can get in less time plus have expansions/research sooner than you thought possible. Just like Shwaip said, instead of spending 250 on queuing 5 marines you could have built 2 more barracks and by the time that first marine finished you should have enough minerals to start the next one. In the meantime you've just about tripled your production with the additional barracks you've added.
No offense Tim, but when 100%.... (and i stress 100% because there has not been 1 person to say otherwise) say that clicking and using the arrows keys = fail. Then its pretty obvious that clicking and arrow keys = fail. Yet you still insist on doing it. Your APM also ABSOLUTELY shows that your not doing anything all game! (20-30 is nothing.... my 5 year old cousin averages more then that. Pros average around 300... and noobs that i have played with average around 50)
So what does this tell you? Your playing sc2 WRONG if you want to be efficient and win more often. Everyone has pointed it out, yet you refuse to change (apparantly because u think your way is better then the way millions of players have been playing starcraft for YEARS). Please either adapt and learn to play a way that will improve your game, or simply stop asking us for help if you insist on argueing with what we are telling you. Especially when your asking us for advice. Because that implies you think your not playing your best. So pipe down, listen to what people have to say, and if you dont enjoy playing the game with hotkeys thats fine, not everyone can process things in their head. Some people have to visually see and visually click. But that will ALWAYS put you at a HUGE disadvantage GAURENTEED. So as a result be prepared to loss more often and get frustrated that 11 yr olds and some college dropouts are whooping you in a game because you wont adapt to a new method.
On another note: This is something everyone has also clearly told you which does not pertain to starcraft 2, but in WOW (aka World of Warcraft for those reading this thread who dont understand what we are talking about) Clickers are an absolute FAIL. Even if you have the highest dps, or the highest heals, or the highest anything in your group by some miracle. (this would require you to be playing with slower clickers but lets just say they are not clickers for giggles) You are STILL not dpsing/ tanking/ healing or w.e to your full potential. Its another WORLDWIDE known fact. And you will NOT convince anyone otherwise. Which goes back to the same answer....
In the past couple days, I've been trying to start using hotkeys more. It's hard to change, especially when a person is as hard headed as I am, but I'm trying to hit at least a few.
This past weekend I went to the Green Forest 5 SC2 tournament in Ventura, CA, and I got a good seat to watch the high end players play. I especially paid attention to how they were using their left hand on the hotkeys. One of them was a 10th grade skinny asian kid, KawaiiRice, and he was averaging over 300 APM and went to 3rd place in the finals. I have been hearing about using hotkeys for a long time but this was the first time I ever actually saw someone doing it. Many other gamers there were similar in how fast they did it. He wasn't even looking at his hand, but he was moving it very fast on the hotkeys.
So I'm trying to change to help myself out a bit, but if I were able to use WASD for movement it would be a LOT easier for me to adapt and use hotkeys around WASD.
Hey Prime - I finally switched to IE8 a couple months ago. I'm not saying it is any better then IE6, but it isn't any worse.
Yep, it can be hard to change, but the trick is to force yourself to do it. If you don't know the hotkeys, simply hover with the mouse, figure it out, and then use the hotkey. Don't use the mouse!
Tim, I'm glad you have seen the light . There's no way a clicker can compete with a hotkeyer in a balanced enviroment. I'm no way a pro, I'm just a starting noob trying to learn myself, but something I tried to carry over to Starcraft from WoW, is not using the mouse to click, ever.
Sure, it's hard in the begining. But you get used to. And it's easier to learn this way, than having to remove a bad habit. Obviously, we wont be able to push 300+ average APM, for the same reasons we wont be able to averange 30 points per game in Basketball or run the 100 meters dash under 10 seconds: becouse we aren't pro. But that's no reason to throw the ball with one hand or having and awful running technique
Just to show how powerful hotkeying is, try to imagine this with mouse click:
We wont be Sky, ever. But it's easy to imagine that, in our own low league, we will be WAY closer to this with a keyboard spam, than with mouse click
Actually, I can agree that clicking in WoW isnt as bad as everyone says. I used Bar Tender to have my buttons right where I needed them and was constantly waiting for the GCD to hurry the hell up. So, if you are fast enough, persistent, and can still watch your character with knowing what you are pressing, clickers can be as good as hotkeyers...I was one of the top dps as a shaman. In SCII though, hotkeying is the only way to go.
I can understand the hesitation to switch from mousing to keyboard, and it reminds me of back in the early FPS days when people would stick with using just keyboard to run around a map. The problem was back then that doing so gave you a limited turn rate. Using a mouse you could do a 180 and shoot someone following you much, much faster and those who learned the WASD method of playing FPS excelled much more rapidly.
I've found in SC2, that in order to be able to do the things that people such as Day9 suggest - you need to be able to micro and macro effectively at the same time. I just don't think that's possible with the mouse cursor flying all around the screen.
And once you learn the keyboard shortcuts (no matter what method) you can - for instance - watch a battle, micro it, and still build units during the ever-so-brief pauses in the fight.
Peronally, I'm constantly striving to keep money low during battles, and that to me is the most difficult challenge. When I push an attack my money skyrockets, and then it's difficult to find a money sink to drop it all into.
But I understand the hesitation, and am glad you were able to observe some of the pros and their methods, as hopefully it was inspiring enough to suffer through the learning pains to become better.
these are great tips, but they don't answer the question of how do you get out of the bronze league? I've been number 1 in the bronze league for approximately 10 - 20 games, and I've seen nothing saying I've moved to silver.. How long can I be #1 in bronze before getting to silver?
To move to silver, you'll have to be playing (and beating) silver ranked players at least 50% of the time.
Check the ranks of the opponents you've beaten/lost to. If you're losing to lots of silver players, but beating most bronze players, you're ranked exactly where you should be.
Select ALL of your barracks and start making marines, each time you click on marine icon (or hotkey, whatever) the additional marine queue will be placed on new barracks! Using all those barracks at same time.
Select ALL of your barracks and start making marines, each time you click on marine icon (or hotkey, whatever) the additional marine queue will be placed on new barracks! Using all those barracks at same time.
The real clue here is HOTKEY all of your barracks.
See how 99% of the time his hands are not on the arrow keys, but on the hotkeys and he's using the mouse to move the screen?
Tim is talking about keeping his hands on the arrow keys 99% of the time to move the screen, and clicking the buttons with the mouse to build units/structures.
To really streamline moving the screen try and use only hotkeys. Obviously you will need to scroll or click the minimap occasionally (scan, xelnaga, set rally, etc) but for the most part you should have everything hotkeyed and then hit the hotkey twice to bring the camera back. eg,
44 to nexus: pull probe do your building, chrono boosting.
11 to scout: see what your opponent is doing.
55 to warpgates: unit, unit, unit, unit
22 to combat units: attack
44 to nexus: (scroll) build expo
22 to combat units: micro
Sorry if this is hard to follow but try it out it really eliminates a lot of necessary moving around.
Honestly guys all you have to get into gold or what ever league from bronze ug uys want to go up to is learn how to macro. u dont need to hotkey or w.e. shit until ur diamond or honestly high diamond. Who cares if your using arrow keys. I use arrow keys and i easily go 80-40 in platinum league. To beat OTher playters IN LOW LEVEL LEAGUES JUST MASS UNITS AND A Move none of htem have the micro to stop it. So it doesnt matter discussion done and if oyu want to check my stats hipopotamus 449
Honestly guys all you have to get into gold or what ever league from bronze ug uys want to go up to is learn how to macro. u dont need to hotkey or w.e. shit until ur diamond or honestly high diamond. Who cares if your using arrow keys. I use arrow keys and i easily go 80-40 in platinum league. To beat OTher playters IN LOW LEVEL LEAGUES JUST MASS UNITS AND A Move none of htem have the micro to stop it. So it doesnt matter discussion done and if oyu want to check my stats hipopotamus 449
The hipopotamus/chimmichonga has spoken. Let us all prayerfully consider his words.
Tim i watched your replay . . . your useless ur suppose to attack directly after a proton turret rush u could have mopped the floor with that guy in minutes :O
The important (and sad) thing to know is that Starcraft 2 and other RTS games is that it's not actually a strategy game. It is not primarily a game of intelligence, but a game of dexterity and speed of your fingers. The closest it comes to a true strategy genre is "action tactical".
I average 80-100 apm (depending on the race I'm playing against), and I beat people who are at around 130-150 (and I lose to them too). I also lose to people who are slower than I. Strategy is MUCH more important than how fast you can click. You may hit a ceiling that you cannot get past because you don't have the handspeed, but good strategy will take you very far (see the number of 4gaters in diamond/masters).
Day9 says that even for a decent player only 40-60 APM is necessary to be a decent starcraft player after that it's all strategy and you're ability to multitask. Seeing as Day9 is kind of an expert I'm gonna go with what he says. mkay?
Comments
OR, let's say I have 4 barracks. 3 with reactors and 1 with a tech lab. I want marines AND marauders. I hit the hotkey to highlight the barracks, and slam the key to make marines 20 times really fast. Then I go to hit the hotkey for marauders but the base with the tech lab is already busy making 5 marines. I have to go to that individual base, cancel the marines, and click 5 marauders.
Instead of all that back and forth, I'd just go to each one individually and place my build orders.
How can I post a link to one of my replays here? Maybe if you saw me in action you'd see what I'm doing and how quickly I do it.
See if this works. The protoss was kind of a noob, I thought.
If it's too much of a hassle or if you are just going for the Marine/Marauder/Medivac army composition you could just burn an additional hotkey to keep your barracks with reactors separate from those with tech labs. Another building people might find useful to hotkey as they get better is research buildings. This is especially useful for timing attacks so that you can quickly see ETA on a +1 upgrade while you are moving out your army.
Also you shouldn't be queuing so much. Try to keep it to just one unit per building. You'd be surprised how much larger your army can get in less time plus have expansions/research sooner than you thought possible. Just like Shwaip said, instead of spending 250 on queuing 5 marines you could have built 2 more barracks and by the time that first marine finished you should have enough minerals to start the next one. In the meantime you've just about tripled your production with the additional barracks you've added.
So what does this tell you? Your playing sc2 WRONG if you want to be efficient and win more often. Everyone has pointed it out, yet you refuse to change (apparantly because u think your way is better then the way millions of players have been playing starcraft for YEARS). Please either adapt and learn to play a way that will improve your game, or simply stop asking us for help if you insist on argueing with what we are telling you. Especially when your asking us for advice. Because that implies you think your not playing your best. So pipe down, listen to what people have to say, and if you dont enjoy playing the game with hotkeys thats fine, not everyone can process things in their head. Some people have to visually see and visually click. But that will ALWAYS put you at a HUGE disadvantage GAURENTEED. So as a result be prepared to loss more often and get frustrated that 11 yr olds and some college dropouts are whooping you in a game because you wont adapt to a new method.
On another note: This is something everyone has also clearly told you which does not pertain to starcraft 2, but in WOW (aka World of Warcraft for those reading this thread who dont understand what we are talking about) Clickers are an absolute FAIL. Even if you have the highest dps, or the highest heals, or the highest anything in your group by some miracle. (this would require you to be playing with slower clickers but lets just say they are not clickers for giggles) You are STILL not dpsing/ tanking/ healing or w.e to your full potential. Its another WORLDWIDE known fact. And you will NOT convince anyone otherwise. Which goes back to the same answer....
ADAPT
ADAPT
ADAPT!!!!!
Or suffer the losses from not doing so.
But yeah, you're welcome to try.
This past weekend I went to the Green Forest 5 SC2 tournament in Ventura, CA, and I got a good seat to watch the high end players play. I especially paid attention to how they were using their left hand on the hotkeys. One of them was a 10th grade skinny asian kid, KawaiiRice, and he was averaging over 300 APM and went to 3rd place in the finals. I have been hearing about using hotkeys for a long time but this was the first time I ever actually saw someone doing it. Many other gamers there were similar in how fast they did it. He wasn't even looking at his hand, but he was moving it very fast on the hotkeys.
So I'm trying to change to help myself out a bit, but if I were able to use WASD for movement it would be a LOT easier for me to adapt and use hotkeys around WASD.
Hey Prime - I finally switched to IE8 a couple months ago. I'm not saying it is any better then IE6, but it isn't any worse.
Sure, it's hard in the begining. But you get used to. And it's easier to learn this way, than having to remove a bad habit. Obviously, we wont be able to push 300+ average APM, for the same reasons we wont be able to averange 30 points per game in Basketball or run the 100 meters dash under 10 seconds: becouse we aren't pro. But that's no reason to throw the ball with one hand or having and awful running technique
Just to show how powerful hotkeying is, try to imagine this with mouse click:
We wont be Sky, ever. But it's easy to imagine that, in our own low league, we will be WAY closer to this with a keyboard spam, than with mouse click
I've found in SC2, that in order to be able to do the things that people such as Day9 suggest - you need to be able to micro and macro effectively at the same time. I just don't think that's possible with the mouse cursor flying all around the screen.
And once you learn the keyboard shortcuts (no matter what method) you can - for instance - watch a battle, micro it, and still build units during the ever-so-brief pauses in the fight.
Peronally, I'm constantly striving to keep money low during battles, and that to me is the most difficult challenge. When I push an attack my money skyrockets, and then it's difficult to find a money sink to drop it all into.
But I understand the hesitation, and am glad you were able to observe some of the pros and their methods, as hopefully it was inspiring enough to suffer through the learning pains to become better.
Dave
Check the ranks of the opponents you've beaten/lost to. If you're losing to lots of silver players, but beating most bronze players, you're ranked exactly where you should be.
Select ALL of your barracks and start making marines, each time you click on marine icon (or hotkey, whatever) the additional marine queue will be placed on new barracks! Using all those barracks at same time.
seems to work for noobs and professional korean players, the two are very similar
Tim is talking about keeping his hands on the arrow keys 99% of the time to move the screen, and clicking the buttons with the mouse to build units/structures.
44 to nexus: pull probe do your building, chrono boosting.
11 to scout: see what your opponent is doing.
55 to warpgates: unit, unit, unit, unit
22 to combat units: attack
44 to nexus: (scroll) build expo
22 to combat units: micro
Sorry if this is hard to follow but try it out it really eliminates a lot of necessary moving around.
also adapt for race and build
The hipopotamus/chimmichonga has spoken. Let us all prayerfully consider his words.
No one is that bad. You're supposed to use hot-keys, and if you don't, you're handicapping yourself.
l2p
I average 80-100 apm (depending on the race I'm playing against), and I beat people who are at around 130-150 (and I lose to them too). I also lose to people who are slower than I. Strategy is MUCH more important than how fast you can click. You may hit a ceiling that you cannot get past because you don't have the handspeed, but good strategy will take you very far (see the number of 4gaters in diamond/masters).