Games within the game

Lord-Parkin

How does everyone feel about the "games within the game"? That is, the Technology Maze, the Great Art Puzzle, and the Caravan Game?

I thought a great number of the ideas I read about in CivWorld were really awesome, but to be honest I had a rather lukewarm reaction to the news of these games within games. The Caravan Game sounds kind of cool and interesting, but the Technology Maze sounds rather average, and the Great Art Puzzle sounds downright boring/frustrating to me.

The benefits of these "games within the game" which really have nothing to do with Civ at all also seem too over the top. Complete X mazes and get a free tech... really? Move X pieces in a puzzle and get a free great person... seriously?

Maybe X will be scaled to be really large or something. Or maybe I'm just not seeing this from the perspective of the average Facebook user, because I love the complexity of regular Civ games and am not just looking for a quick bit of entertainment. But it just seems really weird to me to have mazes and puzzles associated with such powerful bonuses in-game. I don't know, it just seems to cheapen the whole Civ experience. But maybe that's just me.

Any thoughts? Am I being too harsh, or too negative? Don't get me wrong, I'm loving most of what I'm reading about CivWorld, but these games within the game just seem a bit bizarre to me.

Herandar

Alternatively, I'd imagine that, especially during the opening weeks of a game, without the minigames, Civ World as a whole would be really boring, without a lot to do.

I assume that the mini-games will be a rather large undertaking, and that one would only get a few moves/swaps per day. And it does indicate that the minigames are scalable, and progressively larger each time. But I am reserving judgement until I actually get to play it.

Firaxis hasn't mistepped yet, and we have to trust that all decisions are made with a lot of thought and consideration. This game was announced a long time ago, and they haven't rushed it to market...

Lord-Parkin

Herandar wrote:

Alternatively, I'd imagine that, especially during the opening weeks of a game, without the minigames, Civ World as a whole would be really boring, without a lot to do.

True, I hadn't thought of that. However, I would have thought that surely they could do better than mazes and puzzles for something civ-related? Maybe they'll be really innovative and creative in their approach to those sub-games though, who knows. I guess I shouldn't judge before I've even seen them.

Herandar wrote:

I assume that the mini-games will be a rather large undertaking, and that one would only get a few moves/swaps per day. And it does indicate that the minigames are scalable, and progressively larger each time. But I am reserving judgement until I actually get to play it.

True. And I guess if everyone's playing the mini-games, then everyone will be getting much the same advantages - free techs and great people at approximately equal rates, balancing out overall. The only problem that then lurks around the corner is that people are potentially forced into playing the minigames whether they want to or not, because otherwise they fall behind in the civ game. And for those who get bored with or sick of the minigames, that might pretty quickly deter them from playing the main game.

Herandar wrote:

Firaxis hasn't mistepped yet, and we have to trust that all decisions are made with a lot of thought and consideration. This game was announced a long time ago, and they haven't rushed it to market...

Yeah, you're right. I'm probably being rather too negative when I haven't even seen anything yet. Maybe they'll get it just right, at least after testing.

I guess I'm just over-cautious because a few months back I was getting quite excited about Civ5, then it turned out to be quite a disappointment. I sincerely hope the same thing won't happen with this game. At least it looks like they're putting a lot of time into it, testing thoroughly rather than rushing things (*cough* Civ5), which is a good start.

Herandar

Yeah, I wasn't overwhelmed with the Civ 5 demo, and never really gave it a chance.

CrazyJoe

I think Civ 5 is a great game but I'm not sure what I think of the mini games yet, as others have said, I'll wait until I play them to render judgment...

Zanthian

I like the Image puzzle and the trade puzzle. Not as big a fan of the maze with limited vision.

Lord-Parkin

I'm finding the trade puzzle to be less enjoyable after a few play-throughs. IMHO the reward is pretty low and it resets too often. It might be nicer to have a longer reset time, bigger puzzle, and bigger reward.

The image puzzle is better than I thought it would be, though I cannot fathom how it's possibly going to work once there are 100+, or 1000+ people playing it at once. I'm finding myself thinking like CB: seems great for a few dozen players, but how's all this going to work once it goes public?

The technology maze is a bit average, though not as bad as I thought it'd be. Not sure about the whole "seeing other people" thing (what does that really add?), seems that it'd work better as a separate game like the caravan one.

Just first impressions, though.

Herandar

Are there going to be 1000s of players in each game? Or will there be a cap, and multiple parallel worlds? I believe the latter is more likely.

CB

If you go to the Throne room, there is a button which looks like it will one day show you the other games which are going on parallel to the one you are in, so I think that makes sense.

Herandar

I made such a pretty throne room the first time I was in, and it all disappeared...

Herandar

Ha! I totally just stole a puzzle that four or more other people did all the work on. Got 55 culture just for making the last swap!

Lord-Parkin

CB wrote:

If you go to the Throne room, there is a button which looks like it will one day show you the other games which are going on parallel to the one you are in, so I think that makes sense.

I think it's also the only way this game can possibly work in its current state. I say that just because of the way many of the features are built at the moment... there's no way it can work for 1000+ people at once.

If there are indeed separate games, that could be very good news. That might allow you to start games just with your particular group of friends, which would be nice. Maybe it would allow competitive play, if you're not in the same game as the people constantly purchasing stuff?

Herandar wrote:

Ha! I totally just stole a puzzle that four or more other people did all the work on. Got 55 culture just for making the last swap!

Heh, cool. Although I don't think you actually get that much more culture for completing the puzzle as opposed to just making a regular move. Still, well done.

Louis-XXIV

I actually find the maze to keep bugging me to come back. I don't know why, but I keep having a drive to move and run out of moves too quickly. The fear of making a wrong turn makes it a little bit nerve racking. I think the first time I dead end, I'll probably be pissed, though

Herandar

Lord Parkin wrote:

Although I don't think you actually get that much more culture for completing the puzzle as opposed to just making a regular move.

Regular swap worth 5 culture. Final swap worth 55 culture.

Lord-Parkin

Good to know. I think it was more for the first game though, wasn't it? Or maybe I'm imagining things. The first game with the Maze and the Caravans seemed to give bigger bonuses than subsequent games as well.

Louis XXIV wrote:

I actually find the maze to keep bugging me to come back. I don't know why, but I keep having a drive to move and run out of moves too quickly. The fear of making a wrong turn makes it a little bit nerve racking. I think the first time I dead end, I'll probably be pissed, though

Well, I beat you to that dead end. Just got one now.

CB

There is a "start over" button on the tech maze. It gives you your moves back, and places you outside of the current puzzle. From what I can tell, there is no penalty, and no limit to using it, so once you find the most efficient path, you can do it again with optimal moves.

Lord-Parkin

CB wrote:

There is a "start over" button on the tech maze. It gives you your moves back, and places you outside of the current puzzle. From what I can tell, there is no penalty, and no limit to using it, so once you find the most efficient path, you can do it again with optimal moves.

Really? That's good to know, I'll try that in future. Although potentially there needs to be a slight deterrant to using it over and over again... losing a move or two each time, for instance.

Zanthian

The start over button uses one of your "Bucks" I believe. Seems like any of the grey buttons do.

CB

I've been using it when I have zero bucks. Maybe that's a bug?

CB

Here's a super way to get lots of culture in the swapping puzzle.

Making a switch that satisfies two positions gives a multiplier.
You can also set up your own multiplier, by clicking the multiplier button to switch between 1x and 5x.

Use 1x to set up a swap that will satisfy two spots. This takes two swaps maximum, as long as you're not wrong about where the pieces go. Switch to 5x to make the swap which actually gets the points.

This gives 250 points in exchange for 7 swaps. A fine ratio.

Lord-Parkin

Only issue is when the puzzle is busy (like just now), at which point it's very difficult to set anything up ahead of time. Of course, it makes it even worse when the puzzle keeps reverting to an earlier state every 10 seconds or so... not sure if it's bugged or overloaded or both. Annoying either way.

But you're right CB, if the puzzle isn't busy then setting up swaps can be quite profitable.

Louis-XXIV

That reset is why I don't really bother with the puzzles. They just end up pissing me off.

Solved that damn pottery maze, though. That took me far longer than I expected.

Lord-Parkin

Yeah, the maze and science in general needs a big makeover. The way the game is right now, it's practically impossible to catch up if you're not in the leading civ. I also get the feeling it'd be better for the maze to provide beakers towards a tech rather than having a completely separate system of research (beat 5 mazes = tech???).

Louis-XXIV

Probably what they should do is let you get beakers towards a tech and, in addition, if you want to play mazes, you can gain additional beakers. That way, the truly motivated can catch up to the leading civ, while those with large cities can just use the science from population to keep going.

Lord-Parkin

Indeed, that's pretty similar to the idea I just proposed in the official testing forum.

Louis-XXIV

I don't know if we get much say in the matter

Lord-Parkin

Yeah... worth a shot at least though.

Louis-XXIV

Yeah, can't hurt. Guy I know at law school has a friend that works at Firaxis. I should see if I can get any influence that way