What other video games these days require reading of instructions? I can't think of anything that doesn't explain all the core activities in-game. The closest thing I can think of is Civilization, but that's why the Civilopedia is so easy to access. Just seems like if the wiki is so critical, implement it in-game.
What other video games these days require reading of instructions? I can't think of anything that doesn't explain all the core activities in-game. The closest thing I can think of is Civilization, but that's why the Civilopedia is so easy to access. Just seems like if the wiki is so critical, implement it in-game.
I was lost as hell playing LOL and HON.
Too true... also, Dwarf F*CKING Fortress.
Why implement the wiki in-game? The game isn't even full screen! Why reinvent the wheel when you don't have to?
Dwarf fortress?! lol...nearly impossible to play without the wiki and dwarf therapist...
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AnnesTripped Up by Libidos and HubrisAlexandria, VAIcrontian
To look at your Settlers argument another way... what you're saying is akin to someone sitting down to play Settlers of Catan, not reading the instructions (the wiki) then giving up and saying the game is stupid and they're never going to play it again because they can't figure it out.
Not quite right. Settlers of Catan COMES with instructions. You see them when you first open the box. Does Minecraft give you any sort of direction to the wiki? A link? Anything? Or do you just have to know that there's a wiki that has a beginners guide?
Matt, I toally agree with you. Reminds me of my first time playing. Then I got onto the IC server and Jimmy, RyanFodder, and Eli pretty much told me exactly what to do.
To look at your Settlers argument another way... what you're saying is akin to someone sitting down to play Settlers of Catan, not reading the instructions (the wiki) then giving up and saying the game is stupid and they're never going to play it again because they can't figure it out.
Not quite right. Settlers of Catan COMES with instructions. You see them when you first open the box. Does Minecraft give you any sort of direction to the wiki? A link? Anything? Or do you just have to know that there's a wiki that has a beginners guide?
Personally, if EA or Valve made Minecraft, I'd let them get away with the same game design. It's an open-ended sandbox game. I don't expect it to be spoon fed to me. I expect to have to look things up if I can't figure them out.
Then again... I was always the kid that threw out the Lego instructions and said "lets see what I can build on my own."
@Annes: You didn't say "in game," since you have to go to the site to purchase the game, you're aware of the sites existence. It's not hard to see the "Help" link right at the top.
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RahnalH102the Green Devout, Veteran Monster Hunter, Creature EnthusiastNew MexicoIcrontian
I didn't think I would ever say "Here's Egoraptor for some relevancy." but ... here's Egoraptor for some actual flipping relevancy. (Ha still didn't say it!) At least in the "Good Intros and Tutorials of Game Design" aspect of this.
Other then that I'll reiterate. Biggest flaw of Minecraft. If you're willing to work past it, then you'll know whether this game is truly for you or not.
Splash screen has a link to the Main page if not the Wiki itself. You guys are having the same conversation that everyone has been having for the last few years. What will eventually happen is you will boil it down to the fact that ti is an unfinished game that got way bigger than its britches faster than the developer has been able to keep up.
What we DO have is an amazing way to be creative with your friends, adventure with your friends, or make up your own challenge.
@Lincoln My first experience with Minecraft was Very similar to yours. Heck, anyone that boots up Minecraft with none of the background is going to do that. I'm still learning things about it and I run the community. Some rage quit, some take it as a challenge. Can't make it through the first night now? Get better and try to kill the dragon in one life. Speaking of which, it would be awesome to have you come slay the dragon with us in a couple weeks
what you're saying is akin to someone sitting down to play Settlers of Catan, not reading the instructions (the wiki) then giving up and saying the game is stupid and they're never going to play it again because they can't figure it out.
No, it's like them NOT INCLUDING ANY INSTRUCTIONS and then being gently told I'm an idiot for not realizing I need to Google them and figure out what order to read them in. There isn't even a bloody Help menu in the game.
//edit: Anne beat me to it. There is no mention of a 'wiki' anywhere in the game. I ended up in a void of various wikis and YouTube videos by 8 year olds.
I was always the kid that threw out the Lego instructions and said "lets see what I can build on my own."
So was I. The difference is Legos are simple and self-evident. They snap together. Rinse and repeat. It's amazing design. You don't have to figure out you put together 2 blue bricks and a red square to magically make a fucking window piece.
I'm not trying to have an epic single player adventure, I just wanted to show up to the server with enough background to not accidentally someone's building because I have no idea what the controls are or what the various blocks do.
I'm not trying to have an epic single player adventure, I just wanted to show up to the server with enough background to not accidentally someone's building because I have no idea what the controls are or what the various blocks do.
You wouldn't be the first and I guarantee you will not be the last. It's part of the game, that's why I have Matrix type power to undo anything that gets accidentallyed.
No one's talking about spoon feeding here. Explaining to me HOW TO CRAFT ANYTHING AT ALL is not spoon feeding, it's having minimal regard for your user and the experience you're creating for them. If you think mashing the keyboard to figure out what button does the thing you're trying to do is fun, you live in a different realm than most people.
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colapart legend, part devil... all manBalls deepIcrontian
And heck, if you become a problem Linc, we can always send you to the moon XD
Minecraft has managed to escape criticism for it's unhelpful, unintuitive interface as it has inherited so much of its player base from alpha/beta builds where the complete lack of any instruction was tolerated.
Veteran players no longer care about the confusing start and new players seem to be referred by existing ones so often get the help they need outside of the game.
When I started playing the game, if I hadn't been in the Icrontic server and on an active Skype call with several other Icrontians, I probably never would have played again, for the same exact reasons you stated, @Lincoln. The recipes are not intuitive and the first night is nearly impossible for a new user unless you have friends guiding you through it or a walkthrough. When I started I never would have expected a sandbox-style game to try to kill me within the first few minutes.
When I resumed playing on the new Icrontic server, I had to basically have the Crafting page of the wiki open constantly. I spent several minutes punching sheep and getting frustrated that wool didn't drop like it used to, before I was told about shears. Then I tried to intuit the recipe for shears and had to give up and look it up on the wiki.
Minecraft is poorly coded, suffers from a terrible UI, and the development team prioritizes new features over bug fixes. The game is succeeding only through the imaginative powers of its user base.
I still have fun every time I play Minecraft, mostly because the people I play with are Icrontians.
Single player is shit and boring. It's boring shit. Don't do it to learn the basics because as you've noticed there is nothing to help you learn the basics. Play with us because we are the instructions. We will show you how to make anything you don't know. This kind of game doesn't require a person to know anything about it before joining a server because there is no pressure to do anything in a certain amount of time. You can't drag the team down or make us loose the game because you don't know what you're doing yet. The point is to build awesome things together, explore caves, and fill each others houses with sand. It's shit that there is nothing in game to help you learn things but that's why we're here.
No one's talking about spoon feeding here. Explaining to me HOW TO CRAFT ANYTHING AT ALL is not spoon feeding, it's having minimal regard for your user and the experience you're creating for them. If you think mashing the keyboard to figure out what button does the thing you're trying to do is fun, you live in a different realm than most people.
If you jump into Vent this evening, I'll be happy to pass on what little knowledge of the game I have. I've been playing in single player for some time and have a decent grasp of the basics.
I think this is a little deeper than instructions. Lincoln's frustration is actually economics and math.
The function describing happiness to the F-WOW genre (Fucked with out a wiki) of game (Terraria, Minecraft, etc) is basically inversely related to what stage you are at in your life.
If you are at one end of the stage spectrum, where you are incredibly busy and you for the first time in a month have 2 hours to yourself, you will need structured and familiar activity in order to have fun. Otherwise you will be so stressed about wasting your hard earned 2 hours, that if you don't accomplish anything, you will just feel frustrated.
On the other end is the individual who has 10-50 hours of free time every week; their fun is not measured by end result but instead by the journey. So learning something from scratch has mysterious allure whether it is easy, hard, structured, documented, etc .. or not.
We can call this stage adulthood. We can measure adulthood by age up until about age 65, where things get more complicated and you revert in to childhood .. but let's not go there for this demonstration.
Our Function
happiness resulting from F-WOW gameplay = f(x) adulthood = x
f(x) = 1/x^2
What does this mean in general?
It means by time you are physically and mentally capable of playing this game (not necessarily well) that you are about 5 years old. So let's make that our MAX FUN
Max Fun from minecraft = .04 (1/25) (age 5) Min Fun from minecraft = ~.00024 (1/4225) (age 65)
So why are you arguing with Lincoln about how fun this game is and if he should give it a chance?
Lincoln is, what, 28? I don't know Lincoln's fun from minecraft = ~.001 (1/784)
You are, what, 23? I don't know Your fun from minecraft = ~.002 (1/529)
It's practically twice as much fun for you, average Icrontian, to play than it is for poor Lincoln! Deal with it!
It is still pretty much that way for me, as I still consider it very annoying to tab out to a wiki in order to look up a build recipe. Hence, I typically spend my time on other games :/
In this case x approaches 8===D. See graphic below, I couldn't figure out how to type this:
Essentially if the fun of minecraft = 1/x^2 where x = fun, and as x approaches 8===D. We are getting a little beyond my memory here, but this integral I believe represents minecraft itself, where as the previous function is simply the slope of minecraft that just so happens to define fun based on age.
Comments
Why implement the wiki in-game? The game isn't even full screen! Why reinvent the wheel when you don't have to?
Matt, I toally agree with you. Reminds me of my first time playing. Then I got onto the IC server and Jimmy, RyanFodder, and Eli pretty much told me exactly what to do.
Then again... I was always the kid that threw out the Lego instructions and said "lets see what I can build on my own."
@Annes: You didn't say "in game," since you have to go to the site to purchase the game, you're aware of the sites existence. It's not hard to see the "Help" link right at the top.
Other then that I'll reiterate. Biggest flaw of Minecraft. If you're willing to work past it, then you'll know whether this game is truly for you or not. Very true.
What we DO have is an amazing way to be creative with your friends, adventure with your friends, or make up your own challenge.
@Lincoln My first experience with Minecraft was Very similar to yours. Heck, anyone that boots up Minecraft with none of the background is going to do that. I'm still learning things about it and I run the community. Some rage quit, some take it as a challenge. Can't make it through the first night now? Get better and try to kill the dragon in one life. Speaking of which, it would be awesome to have you come slay the dragon with us in a couple weeks
//edit: Anne beat me to it. There is no mention of a 'wiki' anywhere in the game. I ended up in a void of various wikis and YouTube videos by 8 year olds.
Veteran players no longer care about the confusing start and new players seem to be referred by existing ones so often get the help they need outside of the game.
When I resumed playing on the new Icrontic server, I had to basically have the Crafting page of the wiki open constantly. I spent several minutes punching sheep and getting frustrated that wool didn't drop like it used to, before I was told about shears. Then I tried to intuit the recipe for shears and had to give up and look it up on the wiki.
Minecraft is poorly coded, suffers from a terrible UI, and the development team prioritizes new features over bug fixes. The game is succeeding only through the imaginative powers of its user base.
I still have fun every time I play Minecraft, mostly because the people I play with are Icrontians.
The function describing happiness to the F-WOW genre (Fucked with out a wiki) of game (Terraria, Minecraft, etc) is basically inversely related to what stage you are at in your life.
If you are at one end of the stage spectrum, where you are incredibly busy and you for the first time in a month have 2 hours to yourself, you will need structured and familiar activity in order to have fun. Otherwise you will be so stressed about wasting your hard earned 2 hours, that if you don't accomplish anything, you will just feel frustrated.
On the other end is the individual who has 10-50 hours of free time every week; their fun is not measured by end result but instead by the journey. So learning something from scratch has mysterious allure whether it is easy, hard, structured, documented, etc .. or not.
We can call this stage adulthood. We can measure adulthood by age up until about age 65, where things get more complicated and you revert in to childhood .. but let's not go there for this demonstration.
Our Function
happiness resulting from F-WOW gameplay = f(x)
adulthood = x
f(x) = 1/x^2
What does this mean in general?
It means by time you are physically and mentally capable of playing this game (not necessarily well) that you are about 5 years old. So let's make that our MAX FUN
Max Fun from minecraft = .04 (1/25) (age 5)
Min Fun from minecraft = ~.00024 (1/4225) (age 65)
So why are you arguing with Lincoln about how fun this game is and if he should give it a chance?
Lincoln is, what, 28? I don't know
Lincoln's fun from minecraft = ~.001 (1/784)
You are, what, 23? I don't know
Your fun from minecraft = ~.002 (1/529)
It's practically twice as much fun for you, average Icrontian, to play than it is for poor Lincoln! Deal with it!
Essentially if the fun of minecraft = 1/x^2 where x = fun, and as x approaches 8===D. We are getting a little beyond my memory here, but this integral I believe represents minecraft itself, where as the previous function is simply the slope of minecraft that just so happens to define fun based on age.